X-posting from off-topic thread:
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abhischekcc wrote:As for Jesus' 'virgin birth.' Who says it really needs to have happened? Some other biological pathway to pregnancy could have been activated
I disagree with the virgin birth concept - until there is evidence or cultural precedence to show it.
And the only cultural precedence of virgin birth is in ancient European mythology, not in Jewish or Hindu or Arab or Central Asian lore. So the logical conclusion is that while Jesus was born normally, the virgin birth idea was superimposed on his life when Xnism was adopted by the Roman empire.
Saar,
there is nothing in the world which does not have its source in Bhaarath(specially, Sanathana Dharma). Directly or indirectly, all ideas have their roots in Bhaarath.
As for virgin mother, there are cultural precedence in India. It is just that, in India, it is not considered such a big miracle. Because, in Indian literature, there are several miraculous births. So, virgin mother becomes just another extra-ordinary birth. But, X-ism puts too much emphasis on this. Infact, abrahamism puts too much emphasis on some really small (miraculous) deeds. Even if it is just fiction, they put too much emphasis on these miracles(specially, X-ism). Mo-ism puts too much emphasis on the self-acclaimed revelations(which are stored in naroK).
Again, 'revelations' is not really an original idea. In fact, the oldest literature that claims to be revelations are Vedhas themselves. So, this idea also has a precedence in Bhaarath.
X-ism is simply a distorted version of crypto-Buddhism. So, there is nothing in X-ism that cannot be directly traced back to Buddhism. Following that pattern, virgin mary(mother of Jesus) is also copied from virgin maya(mother of Gauthama Buddha). Jesus is simply a crypto-Buddha figure. Nothing more, nothing less.
Buddhist version of virgin mother:
The Virginal Conception – Virginal Before the Birth of the Future Buddha.
As Thundy explains in Buddha and Christ (pp. 84ff.), the conception of the future Buddha was considered to be a ‘virginal conception’ in the sense that his mother, Queen Mäyä, was believed to have conceived him without sexual intercourse with any man: . . .
Änanda, the favorite disciple, recites . . . the events of conception and birth . . . that he heard from the Lord:
Änanda, when the future Buddha is descending into his mother’s womb, she is pure from sexuality, has abstained from taking life, from theft, from evil conduct in lusts, from lying, and from all kinds of wine and strong drink, which are a cause of irreligion. She abided in penances like a hermit, always performing penances along with her consort. Having obtained the sanction of the king, he had not entertained carnal wishes for thirty-two months. In whatever place she sat . . . there dazzled her celestial nature, resplendent by her attachment to virtuous actions. There was not a god, nor a demon, nor a mortal, who could cast his glance on her with carnal desire. All of them, throwing aside all evil motive, and endowed with honorable sentiments, looked on her as a mother, or a daughter. . . . Like unto her, there was none to be seen worthy of the venerable being, or one more fully endowed with good qualities, or compassion – that mother is Mäyä (Lalitavistara, iii).
The Virginal Conception of Jesus As narrated in Luke 1:26-35:
In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, with a message for a girl betrothed to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David; the girl’s name was Mary.
The angel went in and said to her, ‘Greetings, most favored one! The Lord is with you.’ But she was troubled by what he said and wondered what this greeting might mean. Then the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for God has been gracious to you; you shall conceive and bear a son, and you shall give him the name Jesus. He will be great; he will bear the title “Son of the Most High”; the Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David, and he will be king over Israel for ever; his reign shall never end.’
‘How can this be?’ said Mary; ‘I am still a virgin.’
The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy child to be born will be called “Son of God”.’
– The New English Bible
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1Passage in the Majjhimanikäya, cited by Albert. J. Edmunds in Buddhist and Christian Gospels:
Being Gospel Parallels from Pali Texts, ed. M. Anesaki, 3rd ed. (Tokyo, 1905), p. 173.
18
II.14. Mäyä’s Dream: the descent of a white elephant (Bodhisattva) into her womb. Stone, Bhärhut, 2nd century B.C.
[The Way of the Buddha, p. 290]
Link
As one can see, virgin maya and virgin mary are similar, infact, they are X-ist version is copied from Buddhist version. In Lalithavistara, Deva-putris and Deva-putras visit Maya just before the birth of Buddha. In the X-ist version, the Deva-putris and Deva-putras become angels. Infact, the X-ist concept of 'son of god' is just a translation of 'Deva-putra'. Jesus is supposedly the 'son of god' and 'son of David'. The 'son of David' thing has confused many people and they have tried to understand the genealogy without much success. But, they are barking up the wrong tree. The 'son of David' is also a translation of 'Deva-putra'. Deva becomes Daueid(in greek, i.e. David).
Deva is a sanskrith word. It means 'God'. But, Deva also is used as a honorific for the male superiors(like Kings) and Devi is used as a honorific for the female superiors. Infact, there are also Kings use the word 'Deva' as part of their titles or names. For example, Krishna DEVA Raya. In buddhist literature, the word Deva-putra is used to describe Buddha in both its meanings: son of a King(shakya) and son of god(in heaven). Buddha resides in Tushitha heaven as on of the sons of god(i.e. Deva-putra) before descending on to the earth to take birth as the son of Maya and Shuddhodhana. Of course, Buddhist literature is also a pirate copy of Hindhu scriptures. The motifs from Hindhu scriptures are taken and remixed to compose buddhist scriptures and X-ism is again a remix of Buddhist scriptures(motifs). Jesus is nothing more than a fictional character. That character is based on Buddha. In fact, Jesus is like an alter-ego of Buddha... i.e. Buddha in disguise. The character of Buddha itself is created by copying the motifs of Hindhu scriptures(prominently Ramayana, Mahabharatha and Bhagavatha).
Hindhu virgin mothers:
Hindhuism is full of extra-ordinary births of people. So, virgin mother does not evoke so much spotlight.
Anyway, here is a list of Hindhu virgin mothers:
a) Sathyavathi is the virgin mother of Vedha Vyasa. The father in this case was Parashara Maharshi.
b) Kunthi is the virgin mother of Karna. The father in this case was Surya(Sun God).
c) If one is more liberal, then even Anjana Dhevi can be categorized as virgin mother of Hanuman. The father in this case was Vayu(who was in turn carrying the energy of Rudhra).
Infact, not just X-ism, but even Judaism seems to have copied from Hindhuism directly or indirectly. The story of Karna and Arjuna is very interesting in this regard.
For example, birth of Karna:
Karna was born to Kunthi by the grace of Surya(Sun God). But, at that time, Kunthi was an unmarried girl. So, Surya(Sun God) blessed her that she would remain virgin despite the birth of Karna. Karna was born with a natural coat of mail and ear-rings. Kunthi put the child in a box and floated it in river Ganga. That box was found by chariot-driver named Athiratha. He adopted the child. Athiratha was the chariot-driver of Dhrithrashtra. So, Karna went to the same school(first Kripa, then Dhrona) that Kauravas and Pandavas went.
birth of Krushna:
Kamsa, the king of Mathura, married his sister(Dhevaki) to Vasudheva. But, he heard a prophecy that 8th son of Dhevaki is destined to kill him. So, Kamsa tried to kill his sister immediately to save his own life. Vasudheva begged Kamsa not to kill her. Instead, he promised to deliver all their children to Kamsa. Kamsa agreed and imprisoned his sister along with brother-in-law. As promised, Vasudheva delivered his children as soon as they were born. Kamsa killed these children. At the time of birth of 7th child, the child was transferred from the womb of Dhevaki to Rohini(second wife of Vasudheva). Then, after some time, the 8th child was born. Narayana Himself was born to them. He instructed them to transfer Him to the house of Nanda and Yashodha. Then, He assumed the form of a normal child. Vasudheva tranferred the child to the house of Nanda and Yashodha, then he replaced his own son with the daughter of Nanda and Yashodha who was also born on the same day. No one noticed the swap. Kamsa thought a daughter was born to Vasudheva and tried to kill the child. But, the child assumed the form of Goddess and informed Kamsa that the one who is going to kill him is already born and safe. Immediately, Kamsa ordered persecution of all the newborns born at that time...
Now, the story of Moses:
This story is an interesting remix of Karna and Krushna.
wiki wrote:
In the Exodus account, the birth of Moses occurred at a time when an unnamed Egyptian Pharaoh had commanded that all male Hebrew children born be killed by drowning in the river Nile. Jochebed, the wife of the Levite Amram, bore a son and kept him concealed for three months.[13][15][16] When she could keep him hidden no longer, rather than deliver him to be killed, she set him adrift on the Nile River in a small craft of bulrushes coated in pitch.[15] Moses' sister Miriam observed the progress of the tiny boat until it reached a place where Pharaoh's daughter (Bithiah,[13] Thermuthis [17]) was bathing with her handmaidens. It is said that she spotted the baby in the basket and had her handmaiden fetch it for her. Miriam came forward and asked Pharaoh's daughter whether she would like a Hebrew woman to nurse the baby.[13] Thereafter, Jochebed was employed as the child's nurse. Moses grew up and was brought to Pharaoh's daughter and became her son and a younger brother to the future Pharaoh of Egypt. Moses would not be able to become Pharaoh because he was not the 'blood' son of Bithiah, and he was the youngest.
wiki link
So, the birth story of Moses is a remix of births of Karna and Krushna. Then, this story again copied in the story of Jesus.
wiki wrote:
Herod hears of Jesus' birth and, wanting him killed, orders the murder of young male children in Bethlehem. But an angel warns Joseph in his second dream, and the family flees to Egypt, later to return and settle in Nazareth.
wiki link
The story of Jesus has some close connections to the birth story of Karna and Arjuna:
Karna was the son of Surya from a virgin mother Kunthi. Arjuna was the son of Indhra from Kunthi. Surya is Apollo and Indhra is Zeus in Greek. In Hindhuism, Surya and Indhra are kind of alter-egos. This is a secret.
One would have to mix Arjuna and Karna into one figure and Surya and Indhra into one figure to understand these Greek and Abrahamic stories.
Anyway, Indhra is the King of Gods in Hindhuism. Zeus is the King of Gods in Greek. Indhra's vehicle is a white elephant named Airavatha. Indhra is also a Rain God. The white elephant symbolizes a white cloud. Indhra's weapon in Vajra, it symbolizes thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is the weapon of Zeus. According to Buddhist scriptures, when Buddha was about to be born a white elephant entered the womb of Maya signifying that she became pregnant. The same motif is found in Jesus copy also. Buddhists seem to have overlooked the fact that white elephant represents white cloud. So, to Buddhists, white elephant became a symbol of Buddha. In X-ist copy, white dove and white lamb become a symbol of Jesus(crypto-Buddha).
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Actually, it seems to me that the whole Abrahamic tales are merely corruptions of Hindhu originals. More than one Hindhu figure is mixed to create an Abrahamic figure. Buddhism may have been the medium. Buddhism itself copies and steals many Hindhu motifs and figures to craft its scriptures. I suspect that Buddha himself is a copied Hindhu figure.
Brahma/Surya(Vivasvan) -> Abraham
Saraswathy/Sangya -> Sarah
Chaya -> Hagar
Rudhra(Isha)/Yama -> Isaac
Indhra/Shani -> Ishmael
Kubhera -> Jacob
Swayambhuva Manu -> Adam
Shatharupa -> Eve
Vaivasvatha Manu and Matsya Avathara -> Noah and his ark.
Brahma and Saraswathi relationship is presented as incest in Buddhism. Abraham and Sarah are most probably derived from this presentation of Buddhists.
Abraham's Incestuous Marriage with Sarah
There is a misconception that Buddhism is against caste. It does not seem to be true. I don't know how to say this, but it seems that the stress of caste/Kula was so much that they were prepared to commit incest rather than marry outside Kula(more specifically Kshatriya).
In several places in the Pāli Canon, including the Ambaṭṭha Sutta (D.i.92), the progenitors of the Śākyas are related to King Okkāka. Pāli Okkāka is identified with the Sanskrit Ikṣvāku, who is known from Purāṇic stories, and in Jainism he is an ancestor to all of the Tirthaṅkaras. The king banishes his elder brothers from his kingdom and they make their home on the slopes of the Himalayas. But they can find no one suitable to marry, so they take their own sisters as wives, and these incestuous relationships give birth to the Śākyas. Given the prejudice against incest in India society generally it is remarkable that this detail was preserved, and this suggests that it might have a grain of truth. If so it points to Iran "there is good evidence for this practice called xᵛaētuuadaθa, so-called next-of-kin or close-kin marriage."
Wiki Link
As you can see, they believed incest was better than marriage outside caste. In fact, they continued to believe that they were progeny of pure castes.
This incest in Buddhism had curious effect. They justified it through their theology by ascribing this behaviour to many other figures in their theology. But, most of the figures in Buddhism were borrowed from Hinduism. So, essentially, Buddhism redefined these figures and some of them were ascribed incest to justify their own incestous behaviour.
For ex:
In the Udaya Jataka the Bodhisattva is a prince who is compelled to marry his half-sister. Although the two sleep in the same room for many years they remain celibate (Ja.IV,105). In the Dasaratha Jataka the princes Rama and Lakkhana marry their sister (Ja.IV,130). As with many ancient peoples the Sakyans, the tribe the Buddha belonged to, had a myth about their origins which included brother-sister incest. When the Koliyans were involved in a dispute with the Sakyans they taunted them by sayings that they ‘cohabite with their sisters like dogs, jackals and other animals’ (Ja.V,413). During the Buddha’s life there was an incident where a nun became infatuated with her son who was a monk and had sex with him, an offence entailing expulsion from the Sangha (Vin.III,35). When this was brought to the Buddha’s attention he said, ‘Does not this foolish man know that a mother shall not lust after her son or a son after his mother?’
Link
So, Buddhists created a version of Ramayana where Sita is both the sister and wife of Rama. All this for what?! Caste! It is ironic since, according to Valmiki Ramayana, Rama killed Vali for committing incest with his sister-in-law. Rama explains that a sister-in-law is equivalent to one's daughter and should never be thought of as wife material. And the only punishment for such incest is death. If incest with sister-in-law in punishable by death, then what is the punishment for incest with sister?
But, all that is irrelevant when one has an agenda. So, Buddhists tarnish Rama to justify their incest.
The same thing passed on into the story of Abraham and Sarah.
Carl wrote:Subhash Kak writes:
Rigvedic roots of Semitic gods?
The different Semitic gods have cognates in the Vedic pantheon. Yam may be connected to the Vedic Yama who in RV 10.10.4 is seen as being born from the waters, and Mot to the Vedic Mrityu, death. But more to the point, Ila represents Agni as in Yajurveda (VS) 2.3, whereas Ilaa represents Earth, speech, and flow. There is also the Vedic Yahvah. As an epithet it is associated with movement, activity, heaven and earth; it means the sacrificer and Agni, the chief terrestrial god. It is associated with energy like the Yahwah of the Semites. The name Yahvah occurs 21 times in the Rigveda . It may be compared to Shivah, an epithet for auspiciousness in the Rigveda, that later is applied regularly to Rudra.
Are Ila and Yahvah like El and Yahweh just by coincidence? We don't know, but we certainly do know of the Vedic-god worshiping Mitanni of North Syria who could have served as the intermediaries in connecting the Indians and the Semites.
An example:
पर वो यह्वं पुरूणां विशां देवयतीनाम ।
अग्निं सूक्तेभिर्वचोभिरीमहे यं सीमिदन्य ईळते ॥ [RigVeda 1.36.1]
RigVedic meaning of Yahvah (a Name of Agni):
1 yahva mf(%{I4})n. restless , swift , active (applied to Agni , Indra and Soma) RV. ; continually moving or flowing (applied to the waters) ib. (= %{mahat} Sa1y.) ; m. = %{yajamAna} , a sacrificer Un2. i , 134 Sch. ; (%{I}) f. du. heaven and earth RV. ; pl. the flowing waters (with %{sapta} , `" the seven great rivers "') ib. (cf. Naigh. i , 15).
2 yahvat mf(%{a4tI})n. ever-flowing (waters) RV.
Predictably, EJ sources want to debunk any linkage of Semitic god to Vedic tradition. One website called "Karma to Grace" 
has this to say - link
Yahweh is the unique name given to the God who revealed Himself in the Old Testament.
[...]
Is Yahvah the same as Yahweh? Well, let us ask the question more correctly, “Is hwhy the same as यह्व?” Can you read these two? Do you know what they say? Is there a linguistic tie between the two? Is the “H” of Hebrew represented here (there are two “H” sounds in Hebrew) the same as the “h” in Sanskrit? Are the vowels the same? The vowels aren’t even written in Hebrew, so we can’t easily know if they are the same as the Sanskrit ones. The “v” of Jahvah and the “w” of Yahweh —are we sure they are the same? In English they are quite different—one is a fluid and one is a fricative, and they represent completely unique sounds in English. “Wow” and “Vow” are completely different words and though they could be connected phonetically, we still do not identify them as the same words. Do they represent different sounds in Hebrew and Sanskrit? ..... {on and on in this vein}
Link to Subash Kak's article
Link to original post quoting the post of Agnimithra
Yahvah is one of the names used for Agni(Fire God) in Rig Vedha. This connection between Yahvah and Agni(Fire God) will explain many of the miracles in Old Testament.
Elijah shows a miracle where fire is born from a transparent liquid. This is seen as triumph of Yahvah. Why is it a triumph? Because, Fire God won. Similarly, Moses sees a bush catch fire in desert. He thinks of it as manifestation of God. How can a bush catching fire be a manifestation of God? Because, it was Fire God that they were praying to.
Who is this Fire God? Rudhra is the higher Agni. Remember, Rudhra burns up Agni also during pralaya. So, Rudhra is the higher Fire God. It is Rudhra who is Yahvah. Rudhra is also Isha. Many Abrahamic names like Ishaac, Ishmael, Ishrael...etc have the cognate Isha.
Rudhra is also Girisha. Girisha means one who resides on mountains. Abraham goes on to the top of a mountain to sacrifice his son. His son carries the wood to lit up the fire. Why go to the top of the mountain? Because, top of the mountain is where the God resides: Girisha. Why lit a fire? Because, they are worshiping Rudhra/Yahvah, the Fire God.
Moses climbs to the top of the mountain to get the laws for his people. Why climb to the top of a mountain? Girisha...
Remember, the cows were also worshiped by the jews and egyptains at the time. Moses breaks the idol of a golden calf and kills many people who were worshiping it. Of course, these stories cannot be taken as real because they are simply remixing the older motifs from other scriptures.
So, who is Baal? Baal is water God or God of fertility or God of sea.
Baal is Soma i.e. Sa+Uma(Shiva with Uma). That means, in the worship of Baal, worship of Goddess is also inherent. On the other hand, in the worship of Yahvah, only the God without the Goddess is worshiped.
Eventually, the cult of Baal was digested into cult of Yahvah. Baal could also be viewed by the followers of Yahvah cult as Jaalandhara. Jaalandhara was born from Shiva. He became the ruler of Seas. Eventually, he was defeated by Shiva.
I think the root of iconoclasm in judaism is the worship of Fire. Because Fire is worshiped, there is no murthy/image. These people were opposed to the image worship because they were zealot fire worshippers.
These ideologies continue to be mutate and evolve(or devolve).
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The essential point is that all ideas have their source in Hindhuism.
I like the ring of it.
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