Artillery Discussion Thread

[member_22906]

It is the length. Also for the m777, the absence of shell handling crane, like that on the FH 77, means that our army will have to be super fit to man handle a 50 kg round.

Pls leave the concerns of fitness levels of our gunners to the competent people in IA to decide. As regards the rate of fire, its a trade off you make in having the flexibility to place guns in specific locations where most guns would be impossible to place versus rate of fire.

As Abhik also stated, your upgunned M46 also will have heavier shells. In any case, the manpower depolyed for a M46 is higher than that for a LFG, part of which is to also cater to more manual work required in operating them (a Fd. Regt has lesser manpower than a Mdm. Regt)

[abhik]

As regards the rate of fire, its a trade off you make in having the flexibility to place guns in specific locations where most guns would be impossible to place versus rate of fire.

Can you elaborate, thanks. If you're talking about aerial deployment, I just don't think it is will be possible in practice on any significant scale. Once that is out of question the M777 is just an extremely expensive gimped piece of equipment.

[member_22906]

Yes, it was aerial deployment I was talking about. Over and above that, with lesser weight than FH77B, the last mile for deployment in mountains is better considering the quality of tracks that are there.

It requires not only powerful FAT alone to pull the guns to their position but also the overall weight that the dirt tracks can take. So, have I done any analysis on that?... Ofcourse not... That I leave it to IA to take up and if they have given their go ahead, I take that the requisite due diligence has been done

[Victor]

Isn't M777 meant for offensive mountain strike corps, not regular arty? They will not be in dug in positions miles behind the front but will be moved by helo, transport or parachute to the front line and beyond, not by road or in our case kutcha mule tracks for the most part. We can forget about carting or pulling around any arty piece up there, ultra-light or not.

[Victor]

deleted double post

[KrishnaK]

Defense industry watchers in New Delhi say there had been communications made by the US government to the Indian defense ministry about the possible hike after it kept the offer price constant for more than three years since 2010. But they also say that the defense ministry failed to respond and that vendors supplying the systems for the howitzer were no longer able to maintain the pricing that was quoted for this crucial artillery acquisition by India. The slowing down of the assembly line for the howitzer since the time of the original notification could also have contributed to the price hike.

Consequently, the US government was simply unable to keep the price constant indefinitely.

One reason that could have contributed to this delay was a retrospective revision of terms by the defense ministry in 2012 mandating the manufacturer BAE Systems to plough in 30 percent offset of the value of the deal into India even though nothing in the original notification to the US Congress required this of the manufacturer. With the price hike, further delays can be expected in the process since the value of the 30 percent offset requirement will also increase proportionately and BAE Systems would be required to negotiate additional offset contracts.

[member_22906]

What is forgotten sometimes is that with heliborne option, our ability to manouver quickly goes up exponentially since these puppies can be moved in an east-west axis across the multiple valleys what are predominantly in a north-south direction

However, towing by FAT would be more to reach staging areas or for the routine peacetime operations since the operational cost of heliborne transportation would be high... and wrt instances of deployment, this would be the larger portion

What I meant to say in my previous post is that wherever FAT can be used, surely they will use them... and with lighter than the current 155mm (FH77B) guns that we have, our flexibility to deploy them w/o airlifting goes up (to those last mile dirt tracks)

[Philip]

So the US has "sharply hiked the price" for India and we have signed on! For all those who tout the FMS
route ,the truth.One of our recent CNS' said that he disfavoured this route because it gave immense leverage to the nation selling the goods,who could impose conditions and prices at will.
As an above post well put it,the guns come with a bonus (paid for of course-there's no such thing as a free lunch) a lovely bunch of Chinooks! There are a "hundred ways to skin a cat" and believe you me,innumerable ways in which an FMS sale-at these inflated prices ,cannot arrange through the manufacturers,an under the table bag of baksheesh! Take a hard look at how the British govt. has prevented any examination of the lucrative Typhoon deals with the Saudis despite reams of allegations of corruption and now another 12 for human-rights abuser,Bahrein.

Anyway,the IA must be somewhat relieved that at long last they get something.That is the crumb of comfort for the taxpayer.

PS Vipul's post:

I can't understand why our former celebrated and distinguished DRDO chief,Dr.Saraswat,was against an Indian co. from developing an alternative,he being a supposed advocate of indigenisation.Artillery is not "rocket science" as Kalyani of Bharat Forge stated.

India targets to raise the proportion of defense equipment produced at home to 75 percent from about 30 percent in the next 10 years

In February, V.K. Saraswat, then adviser to the Indian defense minister, said the government will restrain private ventures pertaining to highly security sensitive areas. He didn’t elaborate

Why "navaratna" L&T's venture between Larsen and Cassidian Ltd. formed in 2011 to make avionics, radars and electronic warfare equipment is still awaiting industrial license.

Morada declined to comment. Mahindra in an e-mail declined to comment on the government’s rejection of the company’s partnership with Rafael.

So it appears that pvt. Indian industry is yet again getting shafted to allow the DPSUs and "preferred "Indian corporate cos. and their JVs with friang entities to flourish!

[ramana]

Philip, I sent you an email. If you dint get it please email me at ramana_56 AT yahoo

[Manish_Sharma]

Be it artillery or anti-material rifle you will always find some kind of corruption news OR something-is-fishy OR too-expensive kind of news items popping up.

I guess the Tatra truck loot can stay hidden for decades and there won't even be a whimper, then even if Army Chief himself exposes it you'll have press/media doubting putting up questions.

I guess Bhartiya Sainiks getting new artillery causes Salwar-soiling and chinese-pant browning on massive scale. Hence they keep planting such stories.

Let the US increase price by 137% instead of just 37, we need these guns and we should buy it or suffer losses worth 37 x 10000000000 times.

[Philip]

Dear Ramana,I just tried you with your id (ramana_56 AT yahoo)from another e-mail id but it failed.I'm having difficulty with my regular e-mail id.

[Eric Leiderman]

the price is hiked, there are now offsets being offered, nothing is free, lets see what the offsets are before passing judgement

[Philip]

Eric,you need to be an Indian to be able to "join the dots" and ask "cui bono?"

[Eric Leiderman]

I am Indian born and bred in the beautiful city of (M)Bombay

[Philip]

Apologies! Must catch up sometime when nxt. in B/M

Ramana.Got your message.Tx.

[NRao]

The increase in the price of the M777 seems to be due to inaction on part of the GoI/MoD + offsets. Zimple.

Nothing as bad as the Russians increasing for the FGFA. This Russian increase will push the FGFA back by another 5 years - first one (IF it comes) in 2025. I vote to discontinue the FGFA, do not fund the R&D phase. Not worth the $5.5 Billion investment for this systems integration project.

[Eric Leiderman]

I will drop a line before I travel to B/M again

[Philip]

Or the Scorpene? That's the worst deal ever! As for the FGFA,let's see when the first promised prototype is delivered in 2014 as promised and how the IAF likes it.

[Manish_Sharma]

The increase in the price of the M777 seems to be due to inaction on part of the GoI/MoD + offsets. Zimple.

Anyway the moment it comes to procurement of artillery every sort of objection seems to be raised at lightening speed, while real scams like VVIP helicopters take years OR Tatra trucks take decades to come out.

Hope this deal doesn't go south african way.

[NRao]

First FGFA anything by 2014 should be a desk top model and I am sure it will be loved by one and all.

Please check FGFA td for latest. The r&d contract will not be signed by then - the 5.5 billion contract.

IAF better love it. At least for the $35 billion if not for anything else. Hopefully it will be the best in the stable for a few years.

[NRao]

The increase in the price of the M777 seems to be due to inaction on part of the GoI/MoD + offsets. Zimple.

Anyway the moment it comes to procurement of artillery every sort of objection seems to be raised at lightening speed, while real scams like VVIP helicopters take years OR Tatra trucks take decades to come out.

Hope this deal doesn't go south african way.

My feel is it is s fair price. This seems to be a fair hike. At least based on the explanation and understanding.

[abhik]

Yes, it was aerial deployment I was talking about. Over and above that, with lesser weight than FH77B, the last mile for deployment in mountains is better considering the quality of tracks that are there.
It requires not only powerful FAT alone to pull the guns to their position but also the overall weight that the dirt tracks can take.

I just don't buy the argument that the M777 will have any advantage over conventional towed artillery when being deployed by land. And the fact that it does not have a APU-drive and tiny wheels might actually put it at a disadvantage.
And in so far as aerial deployment via helicopters etc is concerned we will have only a handful of chinooks to transport them. Also do they get transported with their own FATs? If not how do they evade counter battery fire if they have no means to skoot?

[member_22906]

APU drive etc work for short distance only which is possible in plains. In hills, your repositioning to evade counter battery fire may require movement across greater distances simply because of limited real estate there. So towing with FAT is surely going to be there. Moreover, apart from FH77B all other Indian guns don't have APU and still do well to evade counter battery fire... Ofcourse, its great if we can get APU and the bells & whistles, but thats the trade-off IA will need to make.

It finally goes back to what is the primary purpose/benefit we get from it. Flexibility of deployment cutting across valleys in short time or ease of movement for short distances (to evade coutner battery fire).

As stated earlier, heli-borne transportation will not be a common mode but its surely a game changer especially for a MSC's offensive ops plans

I would completely agree with you if the deployment of these puppies was going to be in plains since there I dont see any benefit in comparison to the APU driven guns

[abhik]

I don't think there is any option of choosing between flexibility of deployment and ability to move to evade counter battery fire. There is no question of leaving them like sitting ducks. So some sort of prime mover will have to be transported/dropped along with the M777 itself. This means that air transporting them will be even more expensive and given our meager heli-resources more unlikely. So the question really is if it is such a niche weapon is it worth 800+ million? I know we have been starved of artillery for quite some time. But that shouldn't mean we throw our money at the first thing we get our hands on. Money is tight and this might suck out funds from ingenious efforts such as the OFBs and BharatForge. IMHO a leaf out of Pakistan's book and try to get some second hand M198s and M109s from the USA. It would be fast, cheap and a great stop-gap measure.

[member_22906]

Well, as stated earlier since evasion of counter battery fire is within acceptable levels for IA to be not overtly worried about that possibility (for this case)... So, I'll take it at face value.

Moreover, I have not read any specific literature about the Arty duels between the 2 armies that identified counter battery losses to be a concern (read: low if not no losses as the norm)

Unfortunately, in this case it is not the "first thing we got our hands on"... In fact, perhaps the last one left on the shelf

[Pratyush]

The M 777 has no advantages over any 155 mm piece that IA has nor does it has any advantages over any 155 to be designed by India. For a simple reason that it lacks a shell handling crane. In the absence of the shell handling crane, it is little different from the M 46 upg. Accept that, it is 39 cal instead of 45 cal.

The ability to air locate this weapon in context of the IA IMO serves little purpose. cause any aircraft that can airlift it can lift only a limited quantity of shells.

The opportunity cost of doing so in conjunction of limited heli lift capability is too expensive.

[Manish_Sharma]

IAF better love it. At least for the $35 billion if not for anything else. Hopefully it will be the best in the stable for a few years.

By 2025 - 30 it will surely be around 60 billion $

[Victor]

The M 777 has no advantages over any 155 mm piece that IA has nor does it has any advantages over any 155 to be designed by India.

M777 at 7,500 lbs weighs one-third of the FH77 25,000 lbs. It also has greater range (15 miles) to the Bofors (13 miles). No other 155mm howitzer can be transported to any location at short notice independent of ground infrastructure like roads, bridges etc.

For a simple reason that it lacks a shell handling crane.

Lack of shell handling crane doesn't make much difference on sustained rate of fire.

The ability to air locate this weapon in context of the IA IMO serves little purpose. cause any aircraft that can airlift it can lift only a limited quantity of shells.

The opportunity cost of doing so in conjunction of limited heli lift capability is too expensive.

The ability to bring fire in support of an attacking force anywhere in the Himalayas and beyond at short notice is a game changer. It was chosen with great deliberation along with the Chinook, C-130 and C-17, all of which can be used to air locate it.

[Katare]

So the US has "sharply hiked the price" for India and we have signed on! For all those who tout the FMS
route ,the truth.One of our recent CNS' said that he disfavoured this route because it gave immense leverage to the nation selling the goods,who could impose conditions and prices at will.
As an above post well put it,the guns come with a bonus (paid for of course-there's no such thing as a free lunch) a lovely bunch of Chinooks! There are a "hundred ways to skin a cat" and believe you me,innumerable ways in which an FMS sale-at these inflated prices ,cannot arrange through the manufacturers,an under the table bag of baksheesh! Take a hard look at how the British govt. has prevented any examination of the lucrative Typhoon deals with the Saudis despite reams of allegations of corruption and now another 12 for human-rights abuser,Bahrein.

Anyway,the IA must be somewhat relieved that at long last they get something.That is the crumb of comfort for the taxpayer.

PS Vipul's post:

I can't understand why our former celebrated and distinguished DRDO chief,Dr.Saraswat,was against an Indian co. from developing an alternative,he being a supposed advocate of indigenisation.Artillery is not "rocket science" as Kalyani of Bharat Forge stated.

India targets to raise the proportion of defense equipment produced at home to 75 percent from about 30 percent in the next 10 years

In February, V.K. Saraswat, then adviser to the Indian defense minister, said the government will restrain private ventures pertaining to highly security sensitive areas. He didn’t elaborate

Why "navaratna" L&T's venture between Larsen and Cassidian Ltd. formed in 2011 to make avionics, radars and electronic warfare equipment is still awaiting industrial license.

Morada declined to comment. Mahindra in an e-mail declined to comment on the government’s rejection of the company’s partnership with Rafael.

So it appears that pvt. Indian industry is yet again getting shafted to allow the DPSUs and "preferred "Indian corporate cos. and their JVs with friang entities to flourish!

Still beter than paying 3x to Russians for goods that get delivered years late and after that no spares. Much better indeed...

[Philip]

I agree.If the Russians cannot deliver the support for their systems they will lose out,It is why in recent years,new Indian companies have been started which will stockpile spares and provide support for Russian/Sov. origin eqpt. when needed immediately.Excerpts from IDSA:

Impact of Growing Competition for Indian Arms Market

As Russia is facing increasing competition in the Indian arms market,
it is showing greater willingness to respond to Indian needs. The recent
setting up of a consignment warehouse and a service centre in India called
Rosoboron Service may go a long way in meeting India’s requirements for
timely and uninterrupted supply of spare parts and repair and maintenance
of equipment of Soviet and Russian origin. It is a joint venture involving
eight Russian defence manufacturers and an Indian company comprising
ex-servicemen calledKrasny Mir.
Initially, the Rosoboron Service will meet
the needs of the Indian Navy. Subsequently, it will also cater to the
requirements of the Indian Air Force. For the IAF, Rosoboron Service will
set up a new MRO (maintenance, repair, and overhaul) centre in Nasik for
MiG29B-12 and Su-30MKIs. A number of Russian companies plan to set
up ‘bonded spares warehouses and dedicated workshops’ for undertaking
MRO activities for the Indian Air force.
21
Of late, reports have appeared that in view of persistent complaints,
the Russian government is also willing to partially reduce Rosoboronexport’s
monopoly. The Russian government is willing to allow 20 top Russian
defence firms to sign international spare parts and upgrade contracts on
their own, bypassing Rosoboronexport.

Perormance of Russian systems.

Amidst numerous complaints about the delays in the supply of
weapons and spare parts and at times their poor quality, the Soviet/Russian
weapons have proved to be battle-worthy and reliable. In fact, during Indo-
US joint air exercises in Gwalior in February 2004, the Indian pilots flying
Mig-21 Bisons, MiG-27, MiG-29s Su-30s out-performed the US pilots by
their training and skills.
34
The success of Indian pilots flying Russian fighter
aircraft was hailed with pride across Russia and the other former Soviet
republics

Back to the Art. Q.Apart from the light-weight M777,the IA should also use smaller calibre systems and mortars which can be easily transported.It is not going to be possible to have M777s at every location.I wonder whether a light-weight MBRL has been developed too.

Here's recent report on the convoluted Art. issue.Read the full long report.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mur ... soon-0805/

Procurement Nadir: India’s Murky, Messed-Up Howitzer Competitions
Jun 28, 2013 19:00 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff

June 25/13: draft RFI. A draft document external link [PDF] available on the Indian Army’s website confirms renewed activity to procure vehicle-mounted 155mm / 52 calibre systems. The Request for Information is still labeled as a draft, though it stipulates answers by September 1st, which leaves little time for both the Army to finalize it then vendors to send their replies. The RFI is explicitly addressed exclusively to Indian firms. However, joint ventures with foreign partners seem acceptable. Among the technical questions, the Army inquires whether the vendors’ sighting system will use a GPS-based inertial navigation system......

Aug 3/13: M777. Negotiations are still underway in India. So what’s new? According to the Business Standard, the expected price is now INR 40 billion due to the falling rupee, and the industrial offsets issue is almost resolved. If India can manage to finalize the sale, the Mountain Strike Corps external link that they announced in July 2013 would receive the 145 guns.

The key seems to be offsets. The initial DSCA announcement (q.v. Jan 26/10) didn’t include offsets, but BAE sees the potential to equip artillery regiments in up to 7 more Indian corps, given deployment patterns and India’s mountainous borders. As such, they’ve accepted a standard 30% offset liability of about $195 million. About $58.5 million can be discharged by transferring technology, as India badly needs to field bi-modular charge systems (BMCS) for artillery. If they hadn’t blacklisted Denel and Israel Military Industries, they’d have it already. The rest will reportedly be discharged by manufacturing some components in India, including work for its “future artillery gun” and “future naval gun” programs.

India’s challenge is to break with its general practice and place a timely order. BAE’s Mississippi plant is being kept active in anticipation of an Indian order, but if India dithers much, the price will rise sharply to pay production line restart costs. On the other hand, early execution could see India field the new gun by early 2014. India’s Business Standard external link.

June 25/13: SPH. A draft document external link [PDF] available on the Indian Army’s website confirms renewed activity to procure vehicle-mounted 155mm / 52 calibre systems. The Request for Information is still labeled as a draft, though it stipulates answers by September 1st, which leaves little time for both the Army to finalize it then vendors to send their replies. The RFI is explicitly addressed exclusively to Indian firms. However, joint ventures with foreign partners seem acceptable. Among the technical questions, the Army inquires whether the vendors’ sighting system will use a GPS-based inertial navigation system.

May 6/13: SPH. A Parliamentary reply indicates that India is pursuing another avenue for new self-propelled guns, in the wake of the 2007 RFP’s failure:

“A case for procurement of Qty.100 x 155mm/52 Calibre Tracked (self-propelled) Guns is in progress wherein three Indian vendors, including two private sector companies, have been selected for trials of their equipment. The recent amendments to the DPP-2011 which have been accepted by the Defence Acquisition Council aim to give higher preference to indigenous capacity in the Defence Sector.”

It will be interesting to see which companies are involved, and what they’re offering. Bharat Forge’s partnership with Elbit (q.v. Feb 7/13 entry) would allow them to offer the Rascal system, for instance.

April 29/13: 114 from OFB. Minister of state for Defence Shri Jitendra Singh confirms the contract details with India’s Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), who discovered that they had been sitting on blueprints to license-produce the 155/39 FH77 howitzer for over 20 years (vid. Oct 15/11), even as OFB personnel destroyed previous competitions by soliciting bribes.

OFB have carried out several firings of their derivative 155mm x 45 calibre gun, but it hasn’t been submitted for user testing yet, and hasn’t received production clearance. Once they get that clearance, there’s a contract for 114 towed guns. The first 6 will be delivered within 8 months of clearance, and another 6 over the next 4 months. Year 2 will produce 36 guns, and the last 60 will be manufactured in year 3. Indian government external link.

OFB contract for 114 license-built FH77/45s

April 29/13: What, me worry? Defense Minister AK Antony offers the usual non-response external link to a Parliamentary question that asks about the delays in getting India’s Army new artillery. We’ll save you the verbiage. Summary: “Nothing’s happening, and we’re not doing much about it, either.”

[vic]

M777 is a useless import dressed up as super important. A simple non automated 155 howitzer derived from OFB 155mm howitzer will weight around 6-7 tons and 1/10th of the price. Note the M46 upgrade to 155/45 caliber weights around 8 tons.

[Gurneesh]

M777 is a useless import dressed up as super important. A simple non automated 155 howitzer derived from OFB 155mm howitzer will weight around 6-7 tons and 1/10th of the price. Note the M46 upgrade to 155/45 caliber weights around 8 tons.

Could you provide link for that.

130 mm M46 weighs 7.7t .

fh77 weighs 11.5t.

For reference M777 weighs 3.42t. Even if upgraded M46 weighs 8t, you are looking at more than 50% weight reduction to even come close to M777. Also note that MI17 can carry ~5t externally slung weight. So M777 is just about what it can carry in the mountains.

[srin]

The M-777 has the advantage of being available now.
I'm personally thankful that we've got some artillery finally. That's a reason to celebrate.

[sohamn]

M777 is a useless import dressed up as super important. A simple non automated 155 howitzer derived from OFB 155mm howitzer will weight around 6-7 tons and 1/10th of the price. Note the M46 upgrade to 155/45 caliber weights around 8 tons.

Complete lack of vision in your thought. We need M777, because of sudden Chinese threats in Himalayan region. M777 is the only howitzer that MI17/Chinook and probably Dhruv can carry underslung to the remote desolate regions and provide fire support. This is not possible with any other artillery.

[nachiket]

The M-777 has the advantage of being available now.
I'm personally thankful that we've got some artillery finally. That's a reason to celebrate.

When it comes to artillery for the IA, don't count your guns before they have been delivered. The MoD may cancel the whole thing on a whim like they have done so many times in the past.

[KrishnaK]

M777 is a useless import dressed up as super important. A simple non automated 155 howitzer derived from OFB 155mm howitzer will weight around 6-7 tons and 1/10th of the price. Note the M46 upgrade to 155/45 caliber weights around 8 tons.

Could you provide link for that.

130 mm M46 weighs 7.7t .

fh77 weighs 11.5t.

For reference M777 weighs 3.42t. Even if upgraded M46 weighs 8t, you are looking at more than 50% weight reduction to even come close to M777. Also note that MI17 can carry ~5t externally slung weight. So M777 is just about what it can carry in the mountains.

You're such a buzzkill, coming up with real facts when in the middle of vacuous rants !!

[member_22906]

M777 is a useless import dressed up as super important. A simple non automated 155 howitzer derived from OFB 155mm howitzer will weight around 6-7 tons and 1/10th of the price. Note the M46 upgrade to 155/45 caliber weights around 8 tons.

Apart from your statement that M777 sucks, pls suggest in terms of tactics and opertational advantage your suggested howitzer gives in comparison to M777. Use the MSC as a reference point. Thanks

[vic]

Preposition cheaper Howitzers. OFB Howitzers can be dismantled and air lifted. If Fh-77 can reach Siachin then Lighter non-automated Howitzers will be easier to move. M777 may be good but they are costly non-needed import for India. And M777 cannot suck. The prostitutes provided by arms dealers will be doing the sucking.

[member_22906]

Going by your logic of dismantling, even an Arjun MBT can be dismantled and airlifted to any part of the world... which is possible, but in what time period, with what infrastructure and can they reach the last mile in mountains?

MSC by what we understand as its raison d'etre is supposed to provide IA the element of surprise, flexibility, speed and agility to deploy its resources. By prepositioning a strike corps' key resources like its Arty, you give your game plan away.

[vic]

The same blah blah blah was used to justify Agusta Westland helo deal. M777 is a good equipment, just not good enough to spend One Billion dollars on.