Re: Indian Naval Discussion

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Aug 2013 15:03

SNaik wrote:Club missile (if that's the cause, of course) has nothing to do with oxygen/hydrogen peroxide.

The secondary explosion was probably the Club Missile going off , a few seconds after the lower intensity first explosion. The first seems to have all the hall marks a small hydrogen gas, hot steam and flash fire kind of explosion.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 15:18

Sandeep Unnithan report on IT mentions possible Hydrogen Build Up

Explosion on Indian Navy submarine INS Sindhurakshak possibly due to gas buildup

The explosion on board the INS Sindhurakshak was possibly a result of the buildup of volatile hydrogen gas during a battery charging. Sources told India Today that the submarine had faced a similar explosion when she was docked in Visakhapatnam in February 2010 which killed one crew member.

The navy's Board of Inquiry in 2010 pinned the cause to a faulty battery valve that leaked hydrogen. The submarine was lightly manned at the time of the accident and later sent for a 2.5-year refit to Russia that year. It had returned to the naval dockyard on April 29 this year after the refit that cost approximately $80 million.

Conventional submarines like the Sindhurakshak are powered by a combination of diesel generators and electric batteries. The 2300-ton Sindhurakshak has 500 batteries. These have to be 'over charged' once every few months during which process each cell is manually checked. The presence of a large crew early in the morning points to a supervised battery overcharge.

"The Kilo-class submarines do not have automatic monitoring systems which mean the overcharging is manually supervised," says a former Kilo-class submarine skipper. The built-up hydrogen during a battery charging is sucked out by two blowers. The performance of these blowers can be affected if a proper vacuum is not maintained in the exhaust pathway. If the vacuum as well as the exhaust pathway is not maintained, hydrogen settles in small pockets which can be triggered off by any small spark like a falling utility tool.

Sindhurakshak is the ninth of a series of ten 'Sindhughosh' class submarines that were bought from the erstwhile Soviet Union beginning in 1985. India and China, with ten submarines each, are the world's largest operators of the Soviet-designed Kilo class submarines. Seven Indian Kilo-class submarines have been given mid-life refits in Russia. Refits of two other Kilo-class submarines, Sindhukirti and Sindhushastra, are underway at the naval dockyard in Vizag.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 15:21

RajitO wrote:

It says Sindhuratna was towed away safely only minor damages as the firefighter build a curtain of water around it.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 14 Aug 2013 15:26

Would it be a normal procedure to load weapons during the night? Was the boat due to leave the next day for exercise or patrol?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 14 Aug 2013 15:29

oxygen / hydrogen peroxide.

Not sure where people get information from. All Soviet torpedoes in service use silver zinc batteries, that is also used by DRDO Varunastra.

warhead sympathetic detonation

Modern warheads are quite insensetive, with sophisticated fusing, otherwise the heat from burning rocket motor behind will set them off.

Large flashes of light are typically due to gas / liquid inflamables.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 14 Aug 2013 15:36

tsarkar wrote:
oxygen / hydrogen peroxide.
Not sure where people get information from. All Soviet torpedoes in service use silver zinc batteries, that is also used by DRDO Varunastra.

warhead sympathetic detonation
Modern warheads are quite insensetive, with sophisticated fusing, otherwise the heat from burning rocket motor behind will set them off.

Large flashes of light are typically due to gas / liquid inflamables.

Tsarkar, do you mean that there are no 53-65KE or KME torps on Indian boats?

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 14 Aug 2013 15:42

Sad events! Hopefully, IN and MOD will get their act together and speed up submarine manufacturing in India instead of paying exorbitant amount to foreigners. They should let the private indian ship builders in big time and quickly build up the depleted fleet.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 14 Aug 2013 15:43

Naval divers trying to enter from tail section which is above water. Implying the sub has sunk nose down. So explosion probably likely in torpedo section.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Aug 2013 15:56

Latest pics live on TV show the sub almost totally submerged with only a few feet of the sail visible.The sub appears to have settled on the bottom.It means that it may be almost totally filled with seawater.If there was as stated in some reports a"plume" of smoke from the sail,then the hatches may not have been closed during the weapon loading.The blast and fire would've then ripped through the entire sub.Slim chance for any survivors.In the earlier battery fire of the sub a few years ago,the damage was nothing like this indicating that it is more likely something went wrong with the weapons loading.I made an initial post where a US sub also faced a battery explosion and how it happened.batteries on Indian Kilos are supposed to be of desi manufacture,which give better performance than original Soviet batteries meant for their colder climatic ops.Excpt, from DID.2008 report.

A German-designed, Indian-built main battery has replaced the Russian batteries in all vessels, and India’s submarines have also received either a Russian upgrade package of missiles, sonar, and machinery & weapon control systems, or India’s indigenous Panchendriya package. The goal is to bring them closer to parity with the more advanced Type 636 Improved Kilo Class external link variant – S65 INS Sindhushastra, and possibly S63 INS Sindhurakshak, are already rumored to be at or close to that level.

With this loss and the possibility that the other damaged subs will also be out of action for a short while,there is no indication that there is any major damage to them,what does the IN/GOI need to do to restore the "precarious" situ that exists in the supposed "covert" report on the IN's sub fleet condition? What are the options that need to be exercised immediately to plug the gap that will invite the enemy to think mischievously.The upgraded Kilos that were undergoing their refits in Russia,were supposedly also fitted with Indian sonars.With two more Kilos undergoing refits in Vizag,there will barely be about 4-5 Kilos battleworthy as of now,apart from the 4 U-209s. The Chakra is going through its paces having just been delivered,with some teething eqpt. problems reported,and the ATV is still undergoing trials and is meant for strat. deterrent only.The Scorpenes will come not earlier than two years from now and will then have to be "broken in",as they will be of a completely new type,French origin tech,something that the IN hasn't experienced before.So what are our options,short and long term.

The most obvious short term one is to ask Russia for one or two interim replacements for Kilos.Possibly on lease until new subs can be built.They operate the same and are building more for the RuN and 6 new for Vietnam.This will avoid a new training regime.But the lives lost can't be replaced and will be a severe setback.This still does not also answer what we should do to augment the sub fleet in the face of the large-scale Sino-Pak sub building programme.MMS is supposedly due to make a visit to Russia before the year end.The long term option is to hurry up with the specs for the second line and decide fast,plus accelerate indigenous nuclear sub building,s I said earlier with a second line for SSN/SSGN subs built simultaneously along with the SSBN/Arihants.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 14 Aug 2013 16:01

^^ Batteries too are in the forward half. Not sure why people are itching with romantic notions like torpedo explosions.

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/i ... way_lg.jpg

Rest assured, a thorough investigation would be carried out.

Biggest fears are asphyxiation for the trapped men, and the blaze itself.

Exide makes batteries for both 209 & 877 submarines, and exported them to Algeria as well for their Kilos http://www.exideindustries.com/business.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Aug 2013 16:06

CNS on live right now.Batteries were charged "three days ago".CNS therefore rules out a battery gas buildup .The sub had completed over 1000 diving hrs. after certification after returning from her refit.One clue to the origin is the colour of the iniitial fire and subsequent explosions.Different kind of propellants produce differing colours.A chem.munitions expert would be able to throw more light on this aspect missile first ignited from the colour of a Klub missile plume,etc ,knowing whether a .CNS is answering Qs,again reiterates that "some kind of ordnance aboard" exploded.The entire sub has been flooded for over 12 hrs.dock

One statement on the channel," a torpedo/missile hit the wall" of the quay and exploded.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 14 Aug 2013 16:17

SNaik wrote:Tsarkar, do you mean that there are no 53-65KE or KME torps on Indian boats?

Only the Kerosene Oxygen Turbine version & not the Hydrogen Peroxide version. The TEST & SET series are battery powered.

http://www.larsentoubro.com/lntcorporat ... 860&sbu=75

Russian SET 65E anti submarine & CET 53-65 KE anti ship

Added later - non electrical torpedoes leave a wake, hence electrical torpedoes are preferred.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 16:20

http://www.ndtv.com/blog/show/navy-subm ... ire-405468

16:42 (IST) Navy chief DK Joshi on INS Sindhurakshak explosion:

Currently the submarine is sitting in 3 metres below water, portion of the hull visible at all times
Three officers and 15 sailors were on board at the time of the incident
We don't know what caused the fire
Whilst fuel, hydrogen ammunition are on board there are safeties built in
Fire is not supposed to happen but quite obviously the safety mechanisms have not functioned
Our diving teams have been able to open the main hatch
They will attempt to create 2 or 3 water tight compartment within the boat

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 14 Aug 2013 16:31

sum wrote:
kit wrote:Condolences to those ! How much damage was done to the other two subs ? It could be disastrous for the operational readiness of IN .. if 3 subs are damaged. Reminds me how the IN s loss of two antisub aircraft not long ago... Sabotage planned like an accident ?!
IIRC, Russia provided 2 Il-38s to compensate for the loss few years back. Wonder if something similar would be done now.

Anyways, all said and done, the people lost can never be recovered. Sad day indeed and RIP to brave IN souls.

Sadgati to these saputs of Bharatvarsh. Our profound pranaams.

No need to go back to kilos, already scorpenes are being made, time we asked french to make them a couple at home quickly and deliver, why put sons of Bharat mata in danger by replacing with old design subs.

Now for all the expensiveness of french subs 'mehnga roye ek baar, sastaa roye baar baar'. There isn't any incidents on french subs for last 13 + years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_su ... since_2000

Contents [hide]
1 2000
1.1 Kursk explosion
2 2001
2.1 Ehime Maru and USS Greeneville collision
3 2002
3.1 USS Dolphin major flooding and fire
3.2 USS Oklahoma City collides with tanker
3.3 HMS Trafalgar
4 2003
4.1 HMAS Dechaineux flooding
4.2 Ming 361 sinking
4.3 K-159 sinking
4.4 USS Hartford grounding
5 2004
5.1 Bugaled Breiz sinking
5.2 HMCS Chicoutimi fire
6 2005
6.1 USS San Francisco collision with undersea terrain
6.2 AS-28 emergency
6.3 USS Philadelphia collides with the MV Yasa Aysen
7 2006
7.1 St. Daniel of Moscow fire
7.2 The USS Minneapolis-Saint Paul incident
8 2007
8.1 USS Newport News collides with Japanese tanker Mogamigawa
8.2 HMS Tireless
9 2008
9.1 HMS Superb
9.2 Russian K-152 Nerpa
10 2009
10.1 HMS Vanguard and Triomphant collision
10.2 USS Hartford and USS New Orleans collision
11 2010
11.1 HMS Astute runs aground
12 2011
12.1 HMCS Corner Brook grounding
13 2012
13.1 USS Montpelier collision with USS San Jacinto
14 2013
14.1 INS Sindhurakshak (S63) explosion

And I think IN particularly takes care of making the subs as fireproof as they can hence they'd rejected german hydrogen fuel cell (AIP) system.

Now precious lives of Nausainiks have been lost and the whole sub is also lost probably. Better to have an expensive one which is available more round the year and safer too.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 16:32

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/brea ... 99424.html

4.50 pm: Indian Navy chief Admiral D.K. Joshi on INS Sindhurakshak explosion-

It took around two hours to douse the fire. We do not have all the answers right now.
As of now we do not know what caused the fire or the explosion.
Initially there was a smaller intensity explosion which caused a bigger explosion.
Of the crew of 3 officers 2 were married and of the 15 sailors 6 were married. We hope for the best.
From the video clips you can ascertain the intensity of explosion, we can imagine how small the reaction time was.
Fires are not supposed to happen, but obviously the safety mechanisms have not functioned.
We do not rule out the possibility of sabotage, but it seems unlikely. The inquiry board will go into detail.
You cannot lose hope till you have sighted them (on death toll).
We will release the names of those who were on board at an appropriate time.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/brea ... 99424.html

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 14 Aug 2013 16:43

tsarkar wrote:
SNaik wrote:Tsarkar, do you mean that there are no 53-65KE or KME torps on Indian boats?
Only the Kerosene Oxygen Turbine version & not the Hydrogen Peroxide version. The TEST & SET series are battery powered.

http://www.larsentoubro.com/lntcorporat ... 860&sbu=75

Russian SET 65E anti submarine & CET 53-65 KE anti ship
Added later - non electrical torpedoes leave a wake, hence electrical torpedoes are preferred.

I didn't mean hydrogen, just oxygen fueled. In 2011 it was reported that India was offered an upgraded version of 53-65KE, thus my question whether all of them are grounded.

Any moving object in the water leaves wake, did you mean trail? Soviets managed to make first trail-less non-electric torps back in 1950s, 53-65K is definitely trail-less, as it was adopted in 1965.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 14 Aug 2013 17:00

sad day, RIP the brave men

Aaryan · Post by **Aaryan** » 14 Aug 2013 17:10

Cant think of any thing.. R.I.P brothers.. May god give you Moksha..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 17:22

Q&A by Admiral Arun Prakash

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sindhuraksha ... 272-3.html

Q. The cause of the mishap is under investigation.Is it needed to be made public? Asked by: sundar1950in

A. No it is not. Only the navy needs to know and to learn lessons for the future.

Q. This sub was Diesel- Electric powered. If such a mishap happens in a Nuclear powered Sub the effects could be disastrous? Are there additional safety measures in place of nuke powered sub? Asked by: sundar1950in

A. You are right that an accident on a nuclear-powered sub can have far more serious consequences. However the system integrity and redundancy as well as safety procedures on these subs are commensurately much higher and accidents are relatively rare.

Q. Dear Admiral, I am feeling very much for this Tragedy particularly when our country has to face our two eternal enemies China and Pakistan.. Can our Navy recoup quickly from this calamity? Asked by: Raghava Rao Karavadi

A. Yes, it is a bad time for such an accident to have occured. However our navy has a lot of resilience, and will take quick measures to recover from this setback. Don't forget that we have INS Chakra a nuclear-powered attack submarine (on lease from Russia) which can be counted as equivalent in capability to 3-4 deisel subs. We are also expecting delivery of Scorpene submarines from Mazagon Docks in a few months.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 14 Aug 2013 17:37

Scorpene in a few months?? Or years?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Aug 2013 17:39

depressing news. RIP to the men who went down.

Lets wait and see what comes out.

Hopefully this gives a boost to speed up our indigenous submarine building program

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 17:40

Scorpene in 2016

OSK ready to investigate sub accident in India

"We are in constant contact with the Indian authorities. If need be, additional specialists will be sent to Mumbai to take part in the investigation and the work of the appropriate technical commission to investigate this accident," he said.

The source said no Russians were hurt in the accident. "Members of the guarantee group were in the hotel. They were not aboard the submarine," he said.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Aug 2013 17:49

Will Club loading happen at night? I doubt ...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Aug 2013 17:50

hope that faulty valve is not made in china.. quality control and health monitoring system checks are at fault as well, or incapable of detecting danger. safety-critical engineering aspects needs to be looked at.. we have to learn from these.

RIP and salute the sailors.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 14 Aug 2013 18:46

My Heartfelt condolences o all bereaved families of Brave sailors and officers. May those martyrs attain moksha.

This is a catastrophic loss to Navy . The Loss could be replaced by leasing Subs from Russia but Men can not be replaced.
Hope BOI would come out with real cause of this which has claimed one sub and the other one seems to be extensively damaged as well. BOI may also recommend remedial protocols to prevent such occurrences in future.

member_22019 · Post by **member_22019** » 14 Aug 2013 18:59

Statement of Admiral Arun Prakash is very loud and clear, and several times he mentions during interview the delivery of Scorpeans in few months. An officer of his rank cannot give such statement without any concrete reason.

Waiting for a Guru to shed some light...

Q. How long will it take for the Navy to get the replacement Submarine ?? Asked by: sundar1950in

A. Six submarines of the Scorpene class are under construction in Mazagon Docks Mumbai.The first of these is due for delivery in a few months time, and the sixth by 2020. In addition, a project for construction of 6-12 more subs is being taken up by the navy.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Aug 2013 19:06

Loading has to take place at any time of day or night,esp. when a war is on.Sailors and dockyard tech. staff are trained for that.Sub-tenders also have the capability of resupplying and rearming subs at sea.However,some subs can only be reloaded through the tubes.

Here is a famous WW2 clip of a torpedo being transferred from one German U-boat to another while at sea.Ingenious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl-P7Fhst60

Let's salute the memory of our brave submariners who have been killed in this tragedy by watching this video clip of an Indian Kilo and understanding the immense sklii and mental composure required to be an Indian submariner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzhSkU2vC1c

Just one stat.During the Cold War,the US commissioned 16 SSBNs in 18 months!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uvPZs7icIw

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 14 Aug 2013 19:11

CT/ Anyone remembers USS Cole incident. Could it be possible that enemy penetrated and caused this incident? Afterall terrorists could be trained and sent right from Karachi to land in Mumbai and we do have proof of that. There were reports that other groups were also being trained at mangla Dam area where Butcher of Mumbai and his groups were trained. /CT

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Aug 2013 19:11

the 18 men have not been declared dead yet, you must have hope until the end

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Aug 2013 19:19

Austin wrote:
RajitO wrote:

It says Sindhuratna was towed away safely only minor damages as the firefighter build a curtain of water around it.

The above video shows a small yellow flame, then a bluish white flash and then a yellow flame cloud.

So a small flame ignited something that caused the bluish white flash and then the yellow flame too over.

From old time chemistry (bunsen burner) labs, the bluish-white is hydrogen or magnesium burning. The short burn time means its more a gas then a solid. So most likely it was a hydrogen that ignited. Next the yellow flame is mainly a carbon type from some fuel.

Hydrogen build up is from insufficient venting of gases during battery charging. Most likely the exhaust fan failed leading to the gas build up.

There is trigger and then there are underlying circumustances.

Lets wait for the COI and IN to be satisfied.

Accidents do happen and have to be taken in stride.

One immediate action will be to stop the practice of parking the subs one next to other to prevent fratricide.

Till now that is a hypothesis. But now already a couple(?) of subs have minor damage. So no longer a speculation.

It might be OK in days of sail ships but if you recall Drake burnt the Spanish ships in harbor as they were berthed next to each other.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 14 Aug 2013 19:41

Navy Chief did not endorse Hydrogen built up as batteries were charged few days ago. He has not ruled out sabotage nor he confirmed it. Suggested COI report could be out in a month.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 14 Aug 2013 19:42

R I P

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 14 Aug 2013 19:43

Use underwater arc to cut open the sub, heavy crane to lift it whatever it may be. The good thing is its down in shallow water. If it would have been at sea we all know what would be the result. C'mon save those people trapped inside it.
Even I have been to navy dock in Mumbai long time back. At that time they were parked in straight lines one after another without much gap between them.
Hoping for the best.
SAVE THEM PLEASE.

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 14 Aug 2013 19:48

I am worried that this happened on Aug 14th. TSP dependence day

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 14 Aug 2013 19:50

A very sad day. RIP.

Hope lessons will be learnt from this. I have faith in IN's capability in that respect.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Aug 2013 20:13

Amyrao wrote:I am worried that this happened on Aug 14th. TSP dependence day

Speaking of coincidences the timing of the initial explosion was 12:10am, those folks do not have anything happening in their own country to be proud of. Initial news reports mentioned 3 subs were being readied for an operation, maybe they got intel that all assets need to be moved out into open ocean before Indian independence day. Though, we don't know for how long they were docked there.

anyways they mention sympathetic explosions but don't say exactly which type of armament went off although all of it is Russian origin.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 14 Aug 2013 20:20

Now our most advanced sub & Rs. 480 crores gone what is next ? How many sub we are left with ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2013 20:26

mangla dam and someplace near karachi is where the marine unit of SSG trains terrorists in water borne skills. the mumbai batch were alumni of this program.

if you point google earth to "US submarine base mystic CT" will see a line of 10 jettys with subs tied up, with considerable gaps.
but more importantly note the prominent floating barrier net all around this area. the dockside facility looks very surgically neat and tfta.

just compare it to mumbai navy dock which is a cramped basin of sorts - you can see two kilos in a line, near to a mass of warships tied side by side due to lack of space and two U209 side by side in another part.
there is also no evidence of such barrier nets to prevent a explosive laden speedboat surging in and blowing itself up.

karwar seems to have a long way to go, hardly a single jetty with a couple of small corvettes and a couple supply ships tied up. for sure it cannot accomodate the mass of ships and subs berthed in mumbai even if housing for all staff could magically appear on shore.

100% @ karwar is a tough hike from where we are right now.

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 14 Aug 2013 20:28

I wrote a long post on security lapses but last minute cancelled it as admins may not lke it.
Imagine flats over looking the dock Adarsh location.

Lot of suspecious characters loiter around ordinance depots all over the contonments in India which have been encroached by civillians.....

Sad day and I have to grab some medication OTC...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Aug 2013 21:07

in disbelief onlee.. no id, no badge, no check point, no nothing!?