Indian Space Program Discussion

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Aug 2013 16:55

merlin wrote:My impression is that ISRO continues to have these failures on their satellites from time to time, either a power failure or a communications failure. They haven't licked these problems completely. Fortunately the backup did not also fail here, else the satellite would be dead in the water

Yes, there has been a spate of these. In the present case, though we have survived, we have 7 or more years to go with no backup.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 07 Aug 2013 17:39

dhiraj wrote:can any one please share on the latest activities / snaps of the GSLV launch this month. Its only 12 days to go now

I think you have to wait for next week ....usually ISRO updates its website a few days prior to launch.

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 08 Aug 2013 18:56

dhiraj wrote:can any one please share on the latest activities / snaps of the GSLV launch this month. Its only 12 days to go now

Are you looking for something like this? :

http://isro.org/gslv-d5/Imagegallery/launchvehicle.aspx

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 08 Aug 2013 19:36

I got married recently. I was not as much excited for my marriage as I am for the cryogenic engine test flight on GSLV.

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 08 Aug 2013 20:47

^^^

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Aug 2013 09:16

kvraghavaiah wrote:I got married recently. I was not as much excited for my marriage as I am for the cryogenic engine test flight on GSLV.

Dude things can be only as exciting as you can imagine it !

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 09 Aug 2013 10:33

Also LH2 temp must be much lower than LO2
What would the phase diagrams look like for each
.

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 09 Aug 2013 10:39

Very interesting find

http://cryocourse2011.grenoble.cnrs.fr/ ... ids-v2.pdf

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 09 Aug 2013 10:42

Remember the Hughes ford aero space design was body stabilized with umbrella beam to balance once it was torn

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 14 Aug 2013 18:14

just 5 days to go for the GSLV launch.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 14 Aug 2013 18:36

^^^

Yes, the nervousnes and excitement is building, though ISRO itself is rightly not ultra-hyping the launch. Let's face it, we do have to prepare for a possible second failure, and not get too down if that happens. While of course wishing for the best launch possible! There's a saying( attributed to the much despised Winston Churchill) 'expect the best and prepare for the worst'. On August 19th, I myself am probably not going to follow the news, as a kind of quasi-superstitious tactic of believing that the greatest result will ensue if I don't pay attention. Days, weeks or months later, I could then do a google search to find out whether the mission was a success. It really is something qualitatively different and major, like an H-bomb test or an ICBM launch.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 14 Aug 2013 20:37

And I am giving up ***** until the launch.

member_23658 · Post by **member_23658** » 14 Aug 2013 22:32

militaryphotos indian army section has some amazing pics of GSLV D5 getting assembled and then being taken to the launch area.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Aug 2013 22:45

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Aug 2013 01:07

Hindu reports:

India to go it alone for Chandrayan2

Chandrayaan 2, the second mission to the moon, would be an Indian programme, without any tie up with Russia.

Minister of State in the Prime Minister’s Office, V. Narayanasamy, on Wednesday confirmed this in reply to a written question in Rajya Sabha.

Chandrayaan 2 was originally envisaged to be a joint mission between ISRO (Indian Space Research Organisation) and the Russian Federal Space Agency, Roscosmos.

Under the agreement approved by the Central Government in September 2008, while ISRO was to provide for the launch by its workhorse, GSLV, as also the orbiter and the rover, the Russian agency was to provide the lander. The mission was scheduled for the current year.

Following the failure of the Russian-led interplanetary mission, Phobos-Grant, a sample return mission to Phobos, one of the moons of Mars, the Russian agency reviewed their inter-planetary missions and decided to increase the mass of the moon lander.

The Russian agency consequently suggested to ISRO two opportunities for launching of its Chandrayaan 2 rover - either 2015 or 2017 aboard Soyuz, the Russian spacecraft with a rider that the 2015 opportunity could involve mass limitation for the rover and entitle a higher risk.

In the wake of these inputs, the ISRO conducted a high level review of the Chandrayaan 2 programme under the chairmanship of Prof. U.R.Rao. The study recommended that India could itself realise a lander module in a few years and that it could go in for the mission on its own.

In his reply, Mr. Narayanasamy said the details of changes in the configuration and the mission profile were being finalised and the payloads of the lander would be finalised in due course taking into account the weight, volume and power constraints of the lander.

Later speaking to The Hindu, a senior ISRO official said the work on the programme was progressing apace and the mission is likely to take place in three years.

So essentially the Russian upped their payload mass and hence it wouldnt fit the ISOR program. The options given were unviable.

Hence India decided to develop their own lander in the time frame.

The question is when was C-2 scheduled to fly?And how does the new timeline align with the original plan?
Does current year mean 2013? And if so it means its a schedule slip of 3 years i.e. 2016?

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 15 Aug 2013 20:12

Components of a cryogenic engine, from a Wikipedia article:

"The major components of a cryogenic rocket engine are the combustion chamber (thrust chamber), pyrotechnic igniter, fuel
injector, fuel cryopumps, oxidizer cryopumps, gas turbine, cryo valves, regulators, the fuel tanks, and rocket engine nozzle. In terms of feeding propellants to combustion chamber, cryogenic rocket engines (or, generally, all liquid-propellant engines) work in either an expander cycle, a gas-generator cycle, a staged combustion cycle, or the simplest pressure-fed cycle."

Can anyone state whether India has developed indigenous competence in all these areas? I do remember reading as far back as 1998 that India developed its own electroforming process for nickel plating of the thrust chamber assembly of the engine.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 16 Aug 2013 10:35

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Components of a cryogenic engine, from a Wikipedia article:

"The major components of a cryogenic rocket engine are the combustion chamber (thrust chamber), pyrotechnic igniter, fuel
injector, fuel cryopumps, oxidizer cryopumps, gas turbine, cryo valves, regulators, the fuel tanks, and rocket engine nozzle. In terms of feeding propellants to combustion chamber, cryogenic rocket engines (or, generally, all liquid-propellant engines) work in either an expander cycle, a gas-generator cycle, a staged combustion cycle, or the simplest pressure-fed cycle."

Can anyone state whether India has developed indigenous competence in all these areas? I do remember reading as far back as 1998 that India developed its own electroforming process for nickel plating of the thrust chamber assembly of the engine.

Varoon
PLease see links posted in previous pages ( 2 posts from me) . There are detailed reports on the state of INdian development ( a bit dated but still felevant). The main centre is the Liquid Propulsion Systems Center in Mahendragiri in TN. You simply cannot develop a cryogenic engine without expertise on all of the above areas. The scientists at LPSC have taken a Russian engine as a reference , learned from it and developed one on our own.
And remember, cryo engines are highly scalable ( look at Ariane 5 ) .

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 16 Aug 2013 17:17

Thanks Neela! Very heartening info. I do know that even for the imported Russian cryo- engines used on past GSLV's, the electronics and control systems, as well as the LOX and LH2 were produced in India.

With the highest respect for ISRO, I hope they haven't been the least bit complacent with other sections of the mission, including the strap-ons, stage separation systems, and the satellite itself.

I'm going into hiding on Monday, and hoping to hear later, of a successful launch!

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Aug 2013 19:11

Human space flight mission off ISRO priority list.

India’s proposed human spaceflight programme that generated considerable excitement in the second half of the last decade is off the priority list of ISRO, with the mission being ruled out before 2017.

The ambitious venture that could have electrified the entire space programme and given New Delhi a vantage position as a human space transportation provider after Russia and China does not figure in the Space Department’s 12th plan (2012-2017). The US is out of business with decommissioning of its space shuttle programme.

Chairman of Indian Space Research Organisation K Radhakrishnan says “very good progress” has been made in terms of developing critical technologies for the mission (which has been on the drawing board since 2002) but refuses to commit a time-frame for the launch.

“We have not declared it as a programme. We must have a reliable, man-rated vehicle (GSLV). Both are important”, Radhakrishnan, also Secretary in the Department of Space and Chairman of Space Commission, told PTI here.

“We are not going to see the human spaceflight as a programme in the 12th plan. We will see may be later. It has to be seen after that“.

“Even for you to talk about it, you have to have certain new technologies which are involved in the human space flight programme. That’s what we are addressing“.

The programme’s objective is to undertake a mission to carry a crew of two or three members to 300 km Low Earth Orbit (LEO) and return them safely to a predefined destination on Earth.

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 16 Aug 2013 19:15

http://isro.org/ : 29 hour countdown will start on August 18, 2013 at 11:50 hrs (IST)

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 16 Aug 2013 19:31

GSLV-D5 brochure is up.

http://isro.org/gslv-d5/pdf/brochure.pdf

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Aug 2013 19:49

Vipul wrote:Human space flight mission off ISRO priority list.

Welcome news. Let us resurrect it once we are ready.

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 16 Aug 2013 20:05

Neela wrote:GSLV-D5 brochure is up.

http://isro.org/gslv-d5/pdf/brochure.pdf

+ updated photo gallery:

http://isro.org/gslv-d5/Imagegallery/la ... cle.aspx#1

member_23658 · Post by **member_23658** » 16 Aug 2013 20:12

the brochure says new video imaging system for observing the lower shroud movements. From a purely jingo point of view it would be awesome if they could release video snippets post launch.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 16 Aug 2013 20:19

From the brochure:

Modified design of the Fuel Booster Turbo
Pump (FBTP), taking care of the expansion and
contraction of the bearings and casing at cryogenic
temperatures

This is the solution that seems to be implemented based on failure analysis from the D3 mission .
From the brochure CUS will be on for a 721 seconds. And the last time, the CUS failed at 0.9 seconds after ignition. Hopefully it does the remaining 720 seconds well this time. The HAT facility should have made things better. Let us see.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Aug 2013 07:58

It has been raining continuously and rather heavily at times in Chennai and surroundings and I expect the weather to be similar at SHAR too though it should normally not be an issue.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 17 Aug 2013 08:05

Neela wrote:GSLV-D5 brochure is up.

http://isro.org/gslv-d5/pdf/brochure.pdf

Good stuff. The brochure has many comments on modification made to this rocket. What was the diameter of the payload fairing in the D03 test in April 2010? This link suggests it was about 4 metres (konphusing onlee)(http://zeenews.india.com/business/news/ ... 50020.html). This link (SAWF

)says that the fairing diameter for D05 is back to 3.4m (after going to 4.0 m for D04 test) http://www.sawfnews.com/isros-gslv-mk-2 ... in-august/

member_24808 · Post by **member_24808** » 17 Aug 2013 09:15

The diameter of D-3's shroud was 3.4m, the F-06 mission in december 2010 was the first GSLV (and maybe the last) to use the 4m shroud.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 17 Aug 2013 10:03

Doesn't it look like that the cryogenic HAT facility has an associated wind tunnel?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 17 Aug 2013 10:24

Symon,
That is not a wind tunnel. And even if it is, the engine would not be placed like the way it is as the -engine-casing is missing.
What you are seeing is a chamber with the door open. With the door closed, you seal the chamber and you can pump air out and reduce the temperature.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 17 Aug 2013 15:18

high altitude test of cryogenic engine simulates the vacuum condition of space- by pumping out the exhaust gases during trail and monitoring how the engine performs including ignition .essentially made for much larger C-25 cryo engine was modified in record tme to take in smaller C-7.5 /12.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 17 Aug 2013 17:49

GSLV-D5 brochure is up. http://isro.org/gslv-d5/pdf/brochure.pdf

There are some good pictures and numbers. The one showing various orbits of the satellite: GTO and modification to geosynchronous orbits is interesting. The direction of the GTO orbit seems to off (per my reading) relative to the earth. The earth is shown with north pointed up (as always). The gulf peninsula is clearly seen. The GTO orbit is shown 'upwards' relative to the plane or earth's revolution, the rocket trajectory is shown as going north (and east) from India. Per this article by Arun (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... /arun.html), see figure 2; the rocket trajectory goes southeast, over sea. So, the trajectory should be 'downwards' (unless this launch is indeed pointed towards Thaland etc. which I think is unlikely since that will take it over land) . Feel free to correct as needed. Minor nitpick..what to do only...

...

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 17 Aug 2013 17:53

Neela( or anyone), can you give a rough, very rough, estimate of the total number of components in a cryogenic engine. I remember reading that the simpler SLV-3 had over 100,000 components! Though it is not clear if the 1 lakh figure is referring to 'parts', instead of components. The CUS itself would have 100,000 parts, if every nut, bolt, bearing, rivet, clamp, connector, wire et al were counted, wouldn't it?

The CUS performs for 12 minutes, will be a major achievement, if they are successful!

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 17 Aug 2013 18:45

ISRO has released GSLV D5 Integration Video and a Video on the Cryogenic Engine including the high altitude test
http://www.isro.org/video-gslv-d5.aspx#

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Aug 2013 20:14

Srikumar, the launch takes the vehicle over the sea. The ISRO diagram you are referring (I hope you are referring to GSAT-14 Mission Profile in the last page) to is not meant to be accurate and you cannot rely on that for fine trajectory. However, I can still see the payload in a south-easterly direction. The tag 'Injection' is the initial direction of the payload from SHAR where you can clearly see its solar panels folded. Then the solar panels are deployed. This is a prograde (in the same direction as earth's rotation) launch, not a retrograde launch (going north and then east as you assumed).

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 18 Aug 2013 03:11

SSridhar wrote: the launch takes the vehicle over the sea.

Agreed. The launch directon wouldtake it towards Indonesia and Australia, per figure 2 of Arun's article linked below.

The ISRO diagram you are referring ....I hope you are referring to GSAT-14 Mission Profile in the last page

Yes, this is the diagram I was referring to. The earth is shown with north on the top. The arabian peninsula is clearly visible, and deccan peninsula is partially obscured by clouds, but it can be partly seen.

However, I can still see the payload in a south-easterly direction. The tag 'Injection' is the initial direction of the payload from SHAR where you can clearly see its solar panels folded. Then the solar panels are deployed.

If you look at the first GTO orbit in the mission profile diagram in the brochure, there is a GTO orbit labelled AMF-1, the plane of the orbit is mostly above the geostationary orbit plane. Note that the earth is shown as North pointed upwards (which is standard). The apogee of the orbit is above the geo-stationary orbit.

Now check this link (by Arun S.) http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... /arun.html. Figure 2 shows the south easterly direction of GSLV flight. The lower figure in Figure 3 shows the GTO orbit and the geostationary orbit. The GTO orbit is below the geostationary orbit. This is opposite of what is in the brochure's figure (mission profile picture). Is it a small issue....? I wont debate this point but I will say that it not merely a fine (quantitative) difference. The difference is qualitative.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Aug 2013 08:05

Srikumar, Arun's article is about using a PSLV configuration to inject a payload into GTO. The PSLV-C4 was a 4-stage vehicle while GSLV is a 3-stage vehicle and GSLV stages burn for about 200 seconds less time than the less powerful PSLV-C4 and their separation is also at different times. The stage separation and the fall of the burnt out stages into the sea on the flight path have to be considered in determining the trajectory. These will be different for GSLV & PSLV-C4. Though both PSLV-C4 & GSLV-D5 may be launched with the same azimuth angle from SHAR, east-south east, appropriate yaw manoueveres of the vehicle may be made later to take care of safe landing of spent stages. Hence the inclinations wrt the equator may appear different for the two missions.

Added later: The 'less powerful PSLV' would also need the the trajectory is a planar trajectory in order to obtain even a sub-optimal GTO as any out-of-plane manoueveres would expend energy. So, PSLV-C4 went straight after launch (and a roll after lift-off to align to the proper launch azimuth) to attain an inclination that appears retrograde to normal GSLV launches.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 18 Aug 2013 11:53

ISRO's GSLV Videos an also be viewed on YouTube

the stacking process
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq7ORTXXABw

overview of the GSLV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w99vC4MFNOg

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 18 Aug 2013 12:37

just a curiosity question :
is there any plan B available with ISRO (for quick turnaround unlike this time taking 3 years ) in case of any issue with cryo stage in tomorrow's flight
[though i am as much excited and wishing all the success for tomorrow's flight]

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 18 Aug 2013 12:40

status update @ http://isro.org/ :
2nd stage propellant loading in progress.