Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Aug 2013 19:20

this calibrated response business is not sufficient - there is a need for upping the ante significanly, calibrate if you will, but lets go for pinaka instead of L70, lets go for the rear staging base instead of the bunker

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Aug 2013 21:11

ramana wrote:KaranM
Can you point to where the L70s were used to bust the bunkers?
I guess with solid shot indirect fire mode.

I saw the NDTV video and 1:42 the weapons shown is 40mm Bofors ack-ack. You can see the ammo clip in the shot.

They also had a mortar just before showing this.

So are the Indian positions are at higher elevation and the rounds have tracer as seen by the trajectory?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Aug 2013 22:11

Great footage. The Khan'esque thermal imagery also shows that UAVs or helos were used for capturing footage and possibly directing artillery fire. I dream for the day when we will have LCH+Helina or Rustom+Helina taking out bunkers

But body count, where is it?

P.S. The voice of Zaffar Iqbal is shivery. Either its cold out there or he is cr@pping in his pants

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Aug 2013 22:31

I think ECIL or BEl should take up the KrasnopolM fuze system and make different types for mortars and 155mm shells. These pak bunkers will be toast with direct hits.
I would suggest ECIL as they already are familiar with aty fuzes.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Aug 2013 22:40

Early, direct hits will also ensure casualties. Otherwise the pigs will have time to escape, once the firing starts

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 20 Aug 2013 22:46

"masjid mein chale aao, hurry up"

"koshish kar rahen hain"

wtf, these pakis run to mosque for shelter?
they are very sure that our soldiers will not fire at mosques?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Aug 2013 23:08

Lalmohan wrote:this calibrated response business is not sufficient - there is a need for upping the ante significanly, calibrate if you will, but lets go for pinaka instead of L70, lets go for the rear staging base instead of the bunker

Be glad that MMS allowed them to do even this.

He has to go for a yatra to Pakistan, which is far more important and has been on his agenda for eons.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Aug 2013 00:21

The destruction of bunkers & the release of it videos must have had the highest level of approval from the GOI. Where before have we seen camera feeds?

Its also to restore some credibility to the office of the COAS, whose reputation is going downhill with each such incident

Red turban & Blue turban can claim "we have responded at a time, place and video camera of our choosing"

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 Aug 2013 01:51

http://www.timesnow.tv/Civilian-homes-o ... 434826.cms

More on the paki dirty tactics. Using civie homes as fortified bunkers/posts. Footage of IA mortar strikes on TSPA.
Firing is still going on. Most of the action is taking at night and morning. Firing was ongoing at 8.30am today.

Rampy · Post by **Rampy** » 21 Aug 2013 02:24

Prem Kumar wrote:The destruction of bunkers & the release of it videos must have had the highest level of approval from the GOI. Where before have we seen camera feeds?

Its also to restore some credibility to the office of the COAS, whose reputation is going downhill with each such incident

Red turban & Blue turban can claim "we have responded at a time, place and video camera of our choosing"

100% agree, that was excatly my thought. This is just to show that AK and MMS are not napunsak

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 21 Aug 2013 02:45

Prem Kumar wrote: But body count, where is it?

Exactly.

Consider this scenario. The Sellout Crew (MMS, Kurshit, SS Menon) had standing orders never to allow even a token retaliation against any cross-border provocation by Pakistan. In fact, their political officers had conveyed up and down the IA ranks that NO retaliation must be undertaken, however great the provocation might be. Field commanders were denied any assurance of political support from higher up if they took the initiative to retaliate. Perhaps they even operated under an atmosphere of veiled threat, fearing that they themselves would be punished if they undertook any action against Pakistan on their own authority.

This is why the beheading of Hemraj Singh was met with NO retaliation. It is also why the BAT operation of Aug 7th, initially provoked NO retaliation whatsoever. Remember, according to Gen GD Bakshi, this was not at all the norm during the '90s and early '00s... field commanders would authorize retaliations on the spot when the Pakistanis provoked.

However, when the media began to run with the Poonch story, the shells of political embarrassment began to land closer and closer to the Sellout Crew's hidey-holes. First the Anthony SNAFU, then the bizzarre mealy-mouthedness of Kurshit, then the brazen anti-India motion by the Pak National Assembly. All the while, as public anger rose, MMS sat quiet.

After all, how could MMS allow any sort of retaliation against his Pakistani brothers? What would that do to his dreams of a Grand Kashmir Sellout that would win him a Nobel Prize?

Perhaps the public hammering MMS received at Modi's hands on I-Day was the last straw. Something had to APPEAR to be done, without anything actually being done to harm the Pakis.

So the Sellout-Crew, via their Track 2,3,4... channels, brokered an agreement with the TSPA. Please, please, please let us station L70s at pre-determined positions and take out a few of your empty bunkers for the cameras. We will let you know far in advance of the IA operation so that you can safely remove your assets from there ahead of time. Please let us do this... it is our only hope of retaining power in the next election and handing over J&K to you as promised. We will pay you back for the destroyed bunkers, with interest, through the usual channels.

And that's why there's no body count.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2013 04:06

There is no body count as the bodies are ont eh other side. And IA doesn't make up enemy casualties. Does nayone disute those posts are destroyed or not? And the message will go back to the pakis all the way to Islumabad.

Wait for reports of POK civilians preying in masjids who got raisined.

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 21 Aug 2013 04:07

ramana wrote:
ramana wrote:KaranM
Can you point to where the L70s were used to bust the bunkers?
I guess with solid shot indirect fire mode.

I saw the NDTV video and 1:42 the weapons shown is 40mm Bofors ack-ack. You can see the ammo clip in the shot.

They also had a mortar just before showing this.

So are the Indian positions are at higher elevation and the rounds have tracer as seen by the trajectory?

The narrator also said so in the Times now video clip. L70 antiaicraft gun is being employed in a creative way.....

The Swedish Navy purchased a number of 2 pounder Pom-Poms from Vickers as anti-aircraft guns in 1922. The Navy approached Bofors about the development of a more capable replacement. Bofors signed a contract in late 1928. Bofors produced a gun that was a smaller version of a 57 mm (6-pounder) semi-automatic gun developed as an anti-torpedo boat weapon in the late 19th century by Finspong. Their first test gun was a re-barreled Nordenfelt version of the Finspong gun, to which was added a semi-automatic loading mechanism.

see how people(or countries) buy one time use it learn the utility short comings design and improve and make it themselves unlike some who buy even the ammo..

I have seen the same gun being Radar controlled as point defence against close and low air support of the enemy

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2013 04:08

It would be more creative if OFB had AP Tracer shells for this very role.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 21 Aug 2013 05:42

Rudradev wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote: But body count, where is it?

Exactly.

Consider this scenario. The Sellout Crew (MMS, Kurshit, SS Menon) had standing orders never to allow even a token retaliation against any cross-border provocation by Pakistan. In fact, their political officers had conveyed up and down the IA ranks that NO retaliation must be undertaken, however great the provocation might be. Field commanders were denied any assurance of political support from higher up if they took the initiative to retaliate. Perhaps they even operated under an atmosphere of veiled threat, fearing that they themselves would be punished if they undertook any action against Pakistan on their own authority.

This is why the beheading of Hemraj Singh was met with NO retaliation. It is also why the BAT operation of Aug 7th, initially provoked NO retaliation whatsoever. Remember, according to Gen GD Bakshi, this was not at all the norm during the '90s and early '00s... field commanders would authorize retaliations on the spot when the Pakistanis provoked.

However, when the media began to run with the Poonch story, the shells of political embarrassment began to land closer and closer to the Sellout Crew's hidey-holes. First the Anthony SNAFU, then the bizzarre mealy-mouthedness of Kurshit, then the brazen anti-India motion by the Pak National Assembly. All the while, as public anger rose, MMS sat quiet.

After all, how could MMS allow any sort of retaliation against his Pakistani brothers? What would that do to his dreams of a Grand Kashmir Sellout that would win him a Nobel Prize?

Perhaps the public hammering MMS received at Modi's hands on I-Day was the last straw. Something had to APPEAR to be done, without anything actually being done to harm the Pakis.

So the Sellout-Crew, via their Track 2,3,4... channels, brokered an agreement with the TSPA. Please, please, please let us station L70s at pre-determined positions and take out a few of your empty bunkers for the cameras. We will let you know far in advance of the IA operation so that you can safely remove your assets from there ahead of time. Please let us do this... it is our only hope of retaining power in the next election and handing over J&K to you as promised. We will pay you back for the destroyed bunkers, with interest, through the usual channels.

And that's why there's no body count.

Wow, while you were trying to insult the GoI, you ended up insulting the army too. Congrats, you are a bigger nut than the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 21 Aug 2013 06:08

Gurinder P wrote:Wow, while you were trying to insult the GoI, you ended up insulting the army too. Congrats, you are a bigger nut than the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

He did not insult the army, only the politicians. The army only did what it was ordered to do (or not do).

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 21 Aug 2013 07:30

This is a question for the mods--Why have specialized threads on Border issues etc. and then allow posters to post wherever they please?

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 21 Aug 2013 07:32

Kakkaji wrote:
Gurinder P wrote:Wow, while you were trying to insult the GoI, you ended up insulting the army too. Congrats, you are a bigger nut than the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.
He did not insult the army, only the politicians. The army only did what it was ordered to do (or not do).

Hetsulted the army by insinuating that the army was gullible. And another thing, alot of Indian citizens migrated from Pakistan during the partition, so it is natural for them to miss their land of birth. My grandfather was born in 1931 in what is now known as Pakistan, but he always had his allegiance to India though he never forgot his roots.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Aug 2013 08:15

Murugan wrote:"masjid mein chale aao, hurry up"

"koshish kar rahen hain"wtf, these pakis run to mosque for shelter?
they are very sure that our soldiers will not fire at mosques?

Mosquito Mosque Mey Marega,Jabbi Jannat Jaeyga!

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 21 Aug 2013 08:18

Gurinder P wrote:
Kakkaji wrote: He did not insult the army, only the politicians. The army only did what it was ordered to do (or not do).
Hetsulted the army by insinuating that the army was gullible.

How exactly did I insinuate that, sir?

If the army is ordered to destroy certain enemy structures, and effectively carries out those orders, what precisely is "gullible" about that?

If it turns out that the structures were unoccupied because of a Track II tip-off by certain Indian politicians, how does that reflect on anything the army has achieved? They do not pick and choose what orders to carry out, they simply carry them out... so where does the question of "gullibility" arise?

Calling this an "insult to the army" is a rather inconceivable stretch. If you are so eager to take umbrage on the army's behalf that you describe my post as an "insult", I would love to hear how you describe the following actions by the GOI:

-Denying clearance to respond to the beheading of L/NK Hemraj Singh in January. Gen. Bakshi has remarked that this is a complete departure from previous eras, when the army had free rein to respond to provocations that were even far less grave.

-Attempting to barter away Siachen, won by the Indian Army through unprecedented effort and sacrifice, at the Track II negotiating table.

-Attempting to dilute or abolish the AFSPA, and severely diminish the capacity of our soldiers and COIN forces to defend themselves, for the sake of vote-bank politics.

-Providing the kind of "body armour" that evidently failed to protect the lives of five of our jawans on August 7th. I wonder where the budget for that ended up.

-Keeping up the loud public demand for "uninterrupted and uninterruptible dialogue" with Pakistan over the dead bodies of our jawans.

Are these all "9/11" conspiracy theories as well?

And another thing, alot of Indian citizens migrated from Pakistan during the partition, so it is natural for them to miss their land of birth. My grandfather was born in 1931 in what is now known as Pakistan, but he always had his allegiance to India though he never forgot his roots.

Now may I ask what YOU are insinuating here, sir? What does this have to do with anything I have posted? Have I alleged that Manmohan Singh's sellout to Pakistan is somehow related to the fact that he was born in what is now Pakistan? If so, how would the birthplaces of Shiv Shankar Menon or Salman Khurshid (whom I have also named as sellouts) figure in the fabrication of your own little conspiracy theory?

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 21 Aug 2013 08:41

^^^^ some guys got 72 for sure there is video by times now for the same which clearly shows as soon as HMG starts that post is obliterated. They new the location and blew it.

Now my controversial mind says when was this video taken or was there a remote controlled fire for HMG which we blew up part of staged Bollywood film can't say for sure

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2013 08:51

the L70 ammo would be HE with preset height burst or it has radio emitter burst fuse for AA ?

it is the BMP2 30mm 2A42 cannons which will have HE and AP ammo for sure. it has 2.5km range on ground.
imo thats a more appropriate weapon for ground targets..it was designed for it.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 21 Aug 2013 08:53

Krishna, thank you for pointing this out. I had not noticed that there is an HMG muzzle flash from the targeted bunker in that video. Can you indicate the time code (mins:secs) of the Times Now video you are referring to?

Added later: yes, I see it at 00:20 right before the first shell slams. Fair enough, it seems likely that at least one guy got halaaled in that bunker.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 21 Aug 2013 13:13

A body count would be hard to get. The Pakis wont disclose how many got axed. Best guestimate would be around 20-40 72ed.

I for one do not believe the IA staged this entire thing (some here really do have vivid imaginations). The politics within in the country does often force restriant but the IA still has quite a bit of autonomy because no matter how much scape goating or lack of political support for local commanders for their actions, I know for fact that IA is full of Tigers for commanders, not pussy cats, Tigers who will act regardless of consequences. Actually with the opposition constantly showing the GOI to be weak, the GOI wouldn't certainly mind a heavy handed response during such cases especially after the heavy flak they got for the 7th of August raid. Let's keep in mind elections are coming, suddenly we might find GOI keep mum with IA having more autonomy.

IA picked the most badmash large enemy posts in the area which resort to heavy firing while providing cover for BATS and other pig squads and silenced them. Being very active posts, I would estimate around 2 platoons manning the 5 posts around so 60+ in total. I am sure quite a few of them ran but I would guess around 20+ got 72ed on the spot.

amit · Post by **amit** » 21 Aug 2013 14:41

^^^^^

+100

Vivid imagination indeed.

What do folks expect the Pakis to do after, the graphic videos, including voice intercepts, of the firings was splashed all over Indian TV? Squeal and say "Oh you know what, XXX of our TFTA faujis went for an appointment with their houris due to unprovoked firing from the SDRE In'juns who usually brown their dhotis when they see us?"

I really fail to understand how, folks expect a body count when the bodies fell on the Paki side of the border.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 21 Aug 2013 15:38

Moreover, Such posts/bunkers usually harbor BAT teams in the area SSG units + pigs. Could be we killed some of those as well. The intercepts of the guy calling his men, possibly from same squad, back to Mosque, the guy sounded calm, clear english, most surely hardened SSG, men very much active near the LOC, certainly no greenhorns . The average PA regular doesn't speak english as clearly and would have severe dhoti shivers at such heavy firing.

Ajit.C · Post by **Ajit.C** » 21 Aug 2013 16:03

Was checking Paki news to know if they have reported any casualities. Found this from " Dawn"

LoC firing: Pakistan Army captain killed
ISLAMABAD: A Pakistani army officer was killed and a soldier wounded after an exchange of fire across the de facto border with India, the Pakistani military said.

According to the military sources, a captain was killed and another soldier was seriously injured when Indian forces opened "unprovoked fire" at Shakma sector near the town of Skardu on Tuesday night at 11:15pm local time.

Pakistani troops responded to the firing and exchange of fire continued for several hours after midnight, said the sources.

Recent weeks have seen an escalation in tensions between the two South Asian neighbours, with several soldiers killed on both sides of the border, which either side declares to be unilateral violations of a 2003 ceasefire by the other country

amit · Post by **amit** » 21 Aug 2013 16:05

Ok as per BBC, Pakistan has said one officer killed and an Abdul injured in "unprovoked" Indian firing. I'm no expert but it sounds odd that an affisar meets his houris and no jawan gets the honour.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 21 Aug 2013 16:29

Septimus P. wrote:Moreover, Such posts/bunkers usually harbor BAT teams in the area SSG units + pigs. Could be we killed some of those as well. The intercepts of the guy calling his men, possibly from same squad, back to Mosque, the guy sounded calm, clear english, most surely hardened SSG, men very much active near the LOC, certainly no greenhorns . The average PA regular doesn't speak english as clearly and would have severe dhoti shivers at such heavy firing.

It should have been "browning of salwars" Septimus ji.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 21 Aug 2013 17:07

^^^^

very true

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 21 Aug 2013 18:06

amit wrote:Ok as per BBC, Pakistan has said one officer killed and an Abdul injured in "unprovoked" Indian firing. I'm no expert but it sounds odd that an affisar meets his houris and no jawan gets the honour.

Probably officer was pakjabi while jawan's were mohajirs, so not worth mentioning.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 21 Aug 2013 19:19

Field Artillery Captain, killed in Shaqma sector which is Indian 14 Corps AOR...while the Indian Army's media blitz was in 15 Corps AOR.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Aug 2013 19:35

as someone said this is why - when it comes to national security - the BJP is just as dumb

now the BJP opposes Madras cafe -

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/bjp- ... 00591.html

SandeepS · Post by **SandeepS** » 21 Aug 2013 20:01

That is indeed a L70/40 in ground-role. Its a bit surprising that they did not go for ZU23/2, which have been used in this role for a long time now as it can be manhandled into (more importantly, out of) position much easily and has very low profile. L70 is a far bigger and much heavier system, even after they have removed the shields to reduce its profile and weight. Its trails have to be extended into position to allow it get into firing position and they cover more square-feet than ZU-23/2 which is always precious in concealment/camouflage. That bunker must be huge and will stand out. Another thing with AD guns are that they fire at very high velocity and near flat trajectory (as dictated by their primary AD role) and limited depression for firing (not to be mistaken when they are being towed), therefore the bunker will be in LOS. So you can deduce what happens when you have a big, new, specialised bunker in LOS with huge weapon which is difficult to get out of position quickly - it is calling for it to be marked for counter bombardment. But I'm sure this will also be known to the AD troop as they should have prepared alternate positions but that bunker (and any other similar ones) will always get special attention from now onwards.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2013 20:14

Singha wrote:the L70 ammo would be HE with preset height burst or it has radio emitter burst fuse for AA ?

it is the BMP2 30mm 2A42 cannons which will have HE and AP ammo for sure. it has 2.5km range on ground.
imo thats a more appropriate weapon for ground targets..it was designed for it.

Not sure. Most likely these have PD or point detonation mode fuzes for this role.

OFB page says:

HE shell:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... he_l70.htm

TPT(?) The last T could be tracer.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... pt_l70.htm

PFFC: Pre Formed Fragmentation

The 40/70 PFFC IM 212, HE Pre Formed Fragmentation with Tungsten Cubes, has been designed for firing in the 40 mm L70 BOFORS and BREDA 40 L70 guns. It is meant for use against aircraft and sea skimmer missile threats the 40/70 PFFC IM 212 (Pre Formed Fragmented Cubes) fitted with Proximity Fuze Fb 40.

-------------

Fuze FZ 104:

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... n/fz/1.htm

GENERAL :
This is a percussion Direct Action (Point Detonating) and Self Destruction Fuze specially designed for the 40 mm L/70 HE Round. The Self Destruction element is in the form of an igniferous powder train, with a time of self destruction of minimum 6.5 sec to maximum 10.5 Seconds. The Fuze has in addition a post impact delay which permits the shell to detonate after penetration. The Fuze is safe upto 55 metres from muzzle and arms between 55 to 205 metres. The special features of this fuze are:

So most likely the HE round fired with the post impact delay(one) followed by the normal DAP/PD (two) fuze setting. A mix of one, one, two, two in the four round clip would do the damage.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Aug 2013 21:55

Septimus & Amit: gentlemen, you are happily burning down strawmen. Neither Rudradev nor I insinuated that our army "staged it" or that the soldiers were pussycats. The criticism was directed at the political establishment and in my case, additionally at the COAS.

As to the body count: we usually get body count stories from Yawn and other Paki media joints. Hadnt seen anything yesterday - hence the question.

It is pretty clear that this bunker-busting operation had the highest level of clearance with the attendant media coverage.

Rudradev made the additional point that he wouldnt be surprised if the "Sellout Crew" intimated Pakis of the upcoming attack & he named who the crew was. He also sympathized with the lack of freedom of the field commanders to retaliate, due to political pressure. Nowhere did he attack the army.

Re-read the posts

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Aug 2013 23:16

Delhi court calls ex-Army chief VK Singh a 'nuisance'

Former Army Chief General V.K. Singh, facing criminal defamation charges, was on Wednesday termed as a "nuisance" by a Delhi court which said his presence creates a "ruckus" in the court room.

The court made the remarks while granting him exemption from personal appearance for the day for the "last time" in the case.

Metropolitan Magistrate Jay Thareja said whenever he comes to the court, he brings a crowd with him and due to this "ruckus" is created and proceedings are hampered.

"Whenever he is not appearing, it is better for my proceedings otherwise the trial gets delayed," the magistrate said.

"My past experience shows that the dates when these persons do not appear, my proceedings go on but when they appear the proceedings get stuck," the magistrate added.

The court allowed the plea of the retired General who had sought exemption from appearance for the day's proceedings on the ground that he was in the US and would be back in India on August 25.

V.K. Singh's exemption plea for today's proceedings was opposed by complainant Lt Gen (Retd) Tejinder Singh's counsel on the ground that earlier the date for the day's hearing was given with the consent of the former Army chief.

He said it will happen again and again and V.K. Singh is making "mockery of law".

amit · Post by **amit** » 22 Aug 2013 06:42

Prem Kumar wrote:Septimus & Amit: gentlemen, you are happily burning down strawmen. Neither Rudradev nor I insinuated that our army "staged it" or that the soldiers were pussycats. The criticism was directed at the political establishment and in my case, additionally at the COAS.

As to the body count: we usually get body count stories from Yawn and other Paki media joints. Hadnt seen anything yesterday - hence the question.

It is pretty clear that this bunker-busting operation had the highest level of clearance with the attendant media coverage.

Rudradev made the additional point that he wouldnt be surprised if the "Sellout Crew" intimated Pakis of the upcoming attack & he named who the crew was. He also sympathized with the lack of freedom of the field commanders to retaliate, due to political pressure. Nowhere did he attack the army.

Re-read the posts

Prem Kumar,

You are getting overtly defensive. I'm not speaking for Septimus, but as far as my two posts on the issue are concerned, I think it's you who should take deep breadth and re-read them. To be honest I did not even read your post before making my first post, I was just adding to Septimus' observations.

But now that you bring it up, I ask you:

Do you realistically think: a) that the Pak Army would cry out that so many terrorists (who have a part time jobs as soldiers) were halalled after the Indian TV splashed the shooting, and the infra-red pictures of what appeared to be four intruders? b) Do you believe, knowing what we know of the "bravery" of the affisar class in TSPA and the way they treat their jawans as cannon fodder, that an officer was killed and no jawans got their appointment with their recycled houris? Mind you a poster did point out on the previous page that there was LMG fire from one of bunkers just before it was blown up by the Indian response? Do you assume that the "brave" affisar of the TSPA army was single handedly manning the bunker while his jawans were browning their slawars?

Well if you do believe in the above two points, then who am I to question you?

Regarding strawmen let me add: A lot of people have a tendency to jump to a conclusion and then try to fit the facts to that conclusion. It works sometimes but not always.

What has been suggested in this case is this:

Track Puke folks on this side of the border got in touch with Track Puke folks on the other side of the border and begged them to give a break. So a sector was chosen, the bunkers identified, the Pakis told to vacate the bunkers and then to send four infiltrators. After all this was set then the Indian Army was told to target these bunkers and "see" the four infiltrators and then start firing. Mind you when you assume that the Pakis were aware of the plan and had given approval then that would mean that the bunkers and the infiltration point was "given" to the Army. One has to think that the Army is full of a bunch retards or spineless folks if it is assumed that they would simply "follow" orders in this case. Or one could also think that the Army is as complicit in this gameplan as the political class. In this scenario I don't see any other way to explain this incident.

On the other hand the scenario painted by Septimus seems more plausible to me. I agree with the general view that MMS would bend backwards and then some rather than do hot engagements with the Pakis. However, the recent beheadings and no response and the killing of five of our Bravehearts and the incessant criticism from Modi (he did a yeoman's service to the country in this regard) have panicked the government which is already reeling under negative publicity what with the rupee taking a nosedive and other economic ills - remember the Congress knows just as well as the BJP that there's going to be an election next year.

That's why it may have loosened the lease which it put on the Army and the Army did what any professional Army in the world does. Return fire with disproportionately higher level of fire which resulted in the Pakis going and hiding inside a Mosque and browning their salwars and raising the white flag (yes there were reports of that too. I wonder if that was also orchestrated). And being Pakis they just talked about the affisar who must be of RAPE class and just didn't mention the jawans halalled - just as they did in Kargil.

Anyway I've said my piece. My last comment on this issue.

Added later: From the Pak thread: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1499347

So it does appear that the Govt is backtracking from Pappi Jhappi with the Pakis mode. Not necessarily because of a change of heart but more for election mode calculation, IMVHO.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Aug 2013 07:11

MMS wont back away for elections...this is his last chance to visit Pak, get VIP treatment (he is by now very used to all that) and also try and wrangle himself some peace prize. If anything he will be more desp. Opposition or electoral considerations be darned. Also after shackling the armys hands for so long it will take more than a few staged pr style events for things to actually change.. which means the pakis stop their antics..unfortunately in the past 8 years they have only gone from strength to strength whereas our modern day Nero has waved at them and egged on his sycophants to force a constant line of appeasement. One only hopes whosoever comes in at 2014, this man nowhere gets near the lines of power again

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 22 Aug 2013 08:03

Amit +100