LCA News and Discussions

gnair · Post by **gnair** » 17 Aug 2013 08:05

It's a 'missed approach - go around' or TOGO for short, if ever it was that seen on footage.

gnair · Post by **gnair** » 17 Aug 2013 08:16

Avinandan wrote:Noob Pooch : What was that small puff of smoke @0.22 ? Burning Rubber from left Tyre ?

He held the brakes for a second to stop wheel rotation before retracting his undercarriage. It's to avoid wheel rotation and avoid excess heat when it's stowed.

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 17 Aug 2013 08:43

Avinandan wrote:
indranilroy wrote:There is a video of LCA Tejas during the recent outstation trials in the month of July 2013 on Facebook. I don't see it yet on the Tejas website.
It is there in Youtube though .

A newbie question, there is some yellowish smoke @ 1.57, why?
engine smoke is generally white.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Aug 2013 20:57

Does anyone have any chaiwallah info on where the July detachment was and which all planes took part in it? There isn't much info on the ADA web site. Looks like a R-77 was fired too as part of the test. Don't they usually do it over water? Wonder whether the detachment was to Goa.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Aug 2013 01:02

i did not see any yellowish smoke.. btw, if you have noticed it, then it must be the afterburner.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Aug 2013 04:34

There is a yellowish stream of smoke. But it looks that color only because of the angle at which we are viewing it - since we are viewing it down the stream it looks a lot more dense than what it would be if we were to look at it from the side - which would be the normal smoky engine smoke.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Aug 2013 07:59

I was driving past the end of HAL airport and I saw an LCA parked in a hangar. It was painted green. Even the nose cone.

Has anyone else seen it?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Aug 2013 08:32

Yes. That is LCA mk III. With RAM coating and hidden stealth features.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Aug 2013 09:27

NRao wrote:Yes. That is LCA mk III. With RAM coating and hidden stealth features.

MKIII? Since when?

If so, is it one of the PVs or LSPs or a new build?

or are my long legs being pulled longer?

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 Aug 2013 09:32

rajanb wrote:I was driving past the end of HAL airport and I saw an LCA parked in a hangar. It was painted green. Even the nose cone.

Has anyone else seen it?

That is the Sekooolar version of the LCA

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Aug 2013 09:46

^^^^

I don't think so. This is the first export version of the order we got from Pakistan in the deliver now -pay in Paki printed rupee scheme. In the purest green colour. For the Chinese to inspect and dismantle it and produce the JLCA-420. Making it a sweeter than honey deal. Sourer than nimbu. And more electrifrying than electricity.

While we will get an FOC for it only if it makes more than 10,000 test flights.

sickular only

(Sorry for the OT)

kit · Post by **kit** » 18 Aug 2013 13:32

NRao wrote:Yes. That is LCA mk III. With RAM coating and hidden stealth features.

yep ., invisibility and stealth is all in the mind

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Aug 2013 09:58

^^ From Livefist:
July Weapon trials at Jamnagar:

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Aug 2013 10:01

^^ Nice video of the tests at:

July tests

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 19 Aug 2013 10:58

Wow great pics. All these tests are making Tejas (तेजस) a formidal vishishta ladaaku vimaan.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 19 Aug 2013 12:11

Flight test update to 2293 flights - no bird specific details available

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Aug 2013 11:06

Flight test update to 2295 flights - no bird specific details available

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 21 Aug 2013 22:54

suryag wrote:Flight test update to 2295 flights - no bird specific details available

Flight update to 2296 now.

Also has this tidbit on the scrolling headlines ...

Tejas detachment operated successfully during the month of July 2013.

Emergency jettison of all stores tested during detachment at Jamnagar.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Aug 2013 06:24

When will derby be tested??

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Aug 2013 06:55

Adit,here's an old clip of the R-73 AAM being fired from it,was fired during Iron Fist also. Derby and Python were on display along with Astra at Aero-India.The nice bit about the clip is that the LCA is shadowed by an IN Sea Harrier,

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Aug 2013 07:01

rajanb wrote:I was driving past the end of HAL airport and I saw an LCA parked in a hangar. It was painted green. Even the nose cone.

Has anyone else seen it?

it is SP-1

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Aug 2013 07:04

Aditya_V wrote:When will derby be tested??

Per the latest press release its already been tested specific reference to BVR weapon mentioned.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 22 Aug 2013 07:53

indranilroy wrote:
rajanb wrote:I was driving past the end of HAL airport and I saw an LCA parked in a hangar. It was painted green. Even the nose cone.

Has anyone else seen it?
it is SP-1

Thanks Indranil. So we are progressing and hopefully faster.

While the Bangalore skies remain cloud covered, the LCA continues being tested on a daily basis.

The clampdown on specifics of A/C flights is not surprising. Though disappointing for us. I do not think the AoA and G levels achieved, while opening the flight envelope is going to be in the public domain?

Hopefully the trainer version is also being upgraded to latest EC levels and being tested.

From the detachment video, could one surmise that there are going to be no issues with wake penetration tests?

To be excused if it is a foolish question.

Observing it just after take off and bank is a formidable sight, the delta silhouetted, accompanied by the distinctive deep throated roar of her engine and the speed at which she vanishes, visibly and audibly.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Aug 2013 08:01

Developing a more Indian defence

Avinash Chander wrote: On the LCA project

The LCA is going well. We said the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) 2 will be completed by this year end. IOC 2 is progressing very well and in spite of bad weather a number of sorties have taken place. HAL team is working well along with the Air Force and a very well integrated operation is going on. We are very confident that IOC 2 will be completed on time. The Final Operational Clearance is slated for 2014-end. Meanwhile, production will start from this year onwards and we expect that the first aircraft will roll out in 2014. Right now, we have orders from the Indian Air Force for 40, in 20-plus-20 option. The naval version of LCA is also going on well, Prototype Version (PV) 1 and PV2 are getting integrated, and PV1 should be completed by this year end.

On the project’s cost overrun

The cost of LCA is a small fraction of what an F-15 costs. We have developed one of the lowest costing aircraft. We are confident that the LCA will be able to compete very well in performance as well as on cost basis with equivalent aircraft. It will be comparable to Gripen aircraft. The day we start thinking about LCA, you cannot start putting cost on it.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Aug 2013 13:07

Karan M wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:When will derby be tested??
Per the latest press release its already been tested specific reference to BVR weapon mentioned.

But the press release didn't specifically say that the Derby or R-77 was tested. the R-73E at the outer envelope of its range is a BVR weapon..certainly in Indian conditions, on most days its max range is BVR.

had an active guided BVR missile been tested, it would surely have been reported with ADA giving a press release and we'd have probably had pictures and videos as well.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 22 Aug 2013 18:29

Sorry for this question - I have checked the ADA and Tejas websites and I can't find any press release in respect of BVR testing.

Can anyone oblige with a link ?

Sorry again for the trouble.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 22 Aug 2013 21:40

Philip wrote:*In a separate interview with Adm.Arun Prakash,former CNS,he says that ,"If the LCA project was to fail,India would never be able to produce a combat aircraft and would remain dependent upon foreign suppliers for all times.

This is what we call scaremongering.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Aug 2013 23:50

Ajatshatru wrote:^^^^
Not sure exactly where this "we" is coming from, as this may be entirely your perspective....

Agreed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Aug 2013 01:02

Kartik wrote:But the press release didn't specifically say that the Derby or R-77 was tested. the R-73E at the outer envelope of its range is a BVR weapon..certainly in Indian conditions, on most days its max range is BVR.

had an active guided BVR missile been tested, it would surely have been reported with ADA giving a press release and we'd have probably had pictures and videos as well.

True, if there is no ADA release confirming a Derby launch, it could very well be a goof up by the news agency itself or perhaps a reference to the R73E..

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 23 Aug 2013 01:56

Ajatshatru wrote:^^^^
Not sure exactly where this "we" is coming from, as this may be entirely your perspective....

I feel comfortable saying 'we' because it's an absurd statement that deserves to be mocked by all rational people.

It also a very derogatory statement about India in general. So if the LCA fails then even 600 years from now it will be impossible for India to build fighters? Really?

India has massive potential in the aeronautics field and one failure*, no matter how large, will not be a permanent roadblock.

*And I'm not saying the LCA is or will be a failure.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 23 Aug 2013 02:19

Forget 600 years from now. We already have "patriots" on BR calling the LCA a science experiment that needs to be put to rest so the IAF is not distracted from getting on with the business of defending the nation with shiny imported stuff, let alone those who represent the manufacturers of the shiny stuff or their countries.

Hypothetically speaking, there is a very real possibility of Indian decision makers, i.e. babus and mantris, being conditioned to expect failure if the LCA were to add to the "failure" experience after the Marut. This cannot be allowed to happen, at any cost.

And the LCA will be a success.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 23 Aug 2013 02:28

PratikDas wrote:there is a very real possibility

Ah, but see you use qualifiers. The original statement was just a flat denial of any other possibility, which is absurd.

PratikDas wrote:This cannot be allowed to happen, at any cost.

Paradoxically this very attitude can lead to failure. If those working on the plane know there is no danger of having their funding pulled, what is the incentive to get it done?

To encourage success, you have to allow failure.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 23 Aug 2013 02:30

The F-35 is happening at any cost. The F-22 happened at any cost. US Banks were too big to fail. Despite what philosophies suggest, things need to get done.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 23 Aug 2013 02:55

PratikDas wrote:The F-35 is happening at any cost.

Are you holding that up as a model to follow?

Some would argue that that attitude contributed to its problems.

PratikDas wrote:The F-22 happened at any cost.

Not so, the number to be ordered was cut drastically to keep the budget within acceptable limits.

PratikDas wrote:US Banks were too big to fail. Despite what philosophies suggest, things need to get done.

Different issue entirely, but Bear Stearns did fail.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 23 Aug 2013 03:07

GeorgeWelch wrote:
PratikDas wrote:The F-35 is happening at any cost.
Are you holding that up as a model to follow? Some would argue that that attitude contributed to its problems.

The Pentagon and the US are sticking to the F-35. India needs to stick to the LCA. Don't try to spin the topic. Plenty on the F-35 thread lately for me to bother quoting.

GeorgeWelch wrote:
PratikDas wrote:The F-22 happened at any cost.
Not so, the number to be ordered was cut drastically to keep the budget within acceptable limits.

It didn't get cancelled and it wasn't allowed to be a failure despite the ridiculously high budget in the first place. [$67.3 billion on 188 planes, 358 million per plane]

GeorgeWelch wrote:
PratikDas wrote:US Banks were too big to fail. Despite what philosophies suggest, things need to get done.
Different issue entirely, but Bear Stearns did fail.

Just one [big one]? Many of the banks and auto companies got bailouts. Many were forced to merge with the smaller ones. I share a building with a company now called Morgan Stanley Smith Barney

.

The US stuck with their private companies.

India needs to stick to the LCA and the LCA will be a success.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 23 Aug 2013 03:16

Ajatshatru wrote:stuff

It is difficult to predict the future accurately, even more so the distant future. To say that if one project fails it is flat impossible for India to ever develop a fighter is absurd.

Yes, on this issue I'm very rational.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 23 Aug 2013 03:22

PratikDas wrote: The Pentagon and the US are sticking to the F-35. India needs to stick to the LCA.

Again I ask, Is the F-35 the model you want to follow?

PratikDas wrote:India needs to stick to the LCA and the LCA will be a success.

If at some point in the future it were decided that the LCA was hopelessly obsolete or that it wouldn't meet India's needs for whatever reason and it would make more sense to start over with clean-sheet design, then the correct thing to do is to start over, not continue to shovel money into a pit that will never produce a viable fighter.

You can't be so blinded by hopes and by amount of investment (sunk-cost fallacy) that you ignore reality.

If analysis shows it can still be viable, great. But you can't afford to completely ignore the question.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 23 Aug 2013 03:37

Ajatshatru wrote:
If at some point in the future it were decided that the LCA was hopelessly obsolete or that it wouldn't meet India's needs for whatever reason and it would make more sense to start over with clean-sheet design, then the correct thing to do is to start over, not continue to shovel money into a pit that will never produce a viable fighter.
So many sweeping statements/assumptions here....

I'm not saying the LCA is any of those things.

Ajatshatru wrote:
.....that you ignore reality.
Which, according to you, is?

IF it is determined (by relevant authorities) that the LCA is hopelessly functionally obsolete, that the plug should be pulled

Now, do I think such a determination is likely? No. I have every reason to think the MkII can succeed.

But to say it MUST succeed is something else entirely.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 23 Aug 2013 03:43

GeorgeWelch wrote:
PratikDas wrote: The Pentagon and the US are sticking to the F-35. India needs to stick to the LCA.
Again I ask, Is the F-35 the model you want to follow?

If at some point in the future it were decided that the ~~LCA was hopelessly obsolete~~ F-35 was hopelessly over-specified or that it wouldn't meet ~~India's needs~~ the budgets of the F-35's international customers for whatever reason and it would make more sense to start over with clean-sheet design, then the correct thing to do is to start over, not continue to shovel money into a pit that will never produce ~~a viable~~ an affordable fighter.

Strangely, most of the F-35's customers are sticking to the money-pit.

The LCA is an essential project for India in much the same way that the Manhattan Project cost nearly US$2 billion (about $26 billion in 2013 dollars). It isn't like there was any certainty of the Manhattan Project culminating in what it did. It was simply imperative.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 23 Aug 2013 03:59

Ajatshatru wrote:
It is difficult to predict the future accurately, even more so the distant future.
and then you wrote:

If at some point in the future

Yes, I was talking about a hypothetical situation, not making a prediction. Notice the 'If' at the beginning?