Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Sep 2013 00:07

krishnan wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-india-puts-up-death-trap-at-border-pak-sees-red/20130905.htm#5

"Earlier, militants used to stay in their houses, take food at gunpoint and misbehave with their womenfolk," they said, adding, "Now, border dwellers are fully supporting the army against infiltrating militants".


Shows that strength is respected. The first dharma of a government is the security of its citizens

From the same article

According to intelligence reports, of the 1,300-1,450 militants set to be pushed into India, over 1,000 were in 21 camps and launching pads along the LoC and 450 in four bases along the IB.


And Blue Turban traitor wants to have biriyani with Nawaz Sharif in New York. I hope if/when NaMo comes to power, we will conduct a joint Brahmos/AirForce attack on these camps and take out 1000 of these jihadis in one night.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby williams » 06 Sep 2013 03:18

And Blue Turban traitor wants to have biriyani with Nawaz Sharif in New York. I hope if/when NaMo comes to power, we will conduct a joint Brahmos/AirForce attack on these camps and take out 1000 of these jihadis in one night.


26/11 would have been the best time to have done that. We missed a golden opportunity at that time. We could do that when NaMo (NDA) comes to power, but it is going to cost us more diplomatically.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2013 10:04

Rohitvats, I want your help in writing an article
"Kargil and the Barbarianization of Pakistan army"

Would like to document the atrocities committed on Lt Kalia and his troop, the shooting of Sqd Ldr Ahuja after his plane got shot down, the cold blooded murder of the Sikh workers in Chattisinghpura, the numerous beheading and ambushes of Indian soldiers.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rajatmisra » 07 Sep 2013 15:42

And if posts are accurate, this is exactly how the Paki army has behaved since 1948 Kashmir war. If the origins of both the armies are the same, why is there such a difference in their behaviors and attitude? And right since independence.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 07 Sep 2013 19:32

pragnya wrote:^^^

RV

remember you had made a post on the chumbi valley (with maps/roads) on the forum or was it your blog post? can you point me to the post/discussion??

<SNIP>


Its on the blog. One of the earliest posts.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby symontk » 08 Sep 2013 08:22

Why there is no gun burst for Arjun tanks? I also searched for Challenger 1 which as rifled gun, but it didn't throw up any links. But we have seen the examples for Russian T series and Abrams. Is it because of any physics / engg related to smooth bores?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2013 03:05

Shubh shubh bolo, why do you want that issue to plague Arjuns as well?
The gun burst is due to improper manufacture by OFB, nothing to do with smoothbores or the like.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby symontk » 09 Sep 2013 10:30

Karan M wrote:Shubh shubh bolo, why do you want that issue to plague Arjuns as well?
The gun burst is due to improper manufacture by OFB, nothing to do with smoothbores or the like.


I don't want to have issues for Arjun, but its really strange that only smoothbores have issues and not rifled ones. In India's case, same OFB manufactures sets for both Arjun and T-series. One has issue other doesn't have

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vic » 09 Sep 2013 12:42

Compared to rifled bore, smoothbore is supposed to subjected to less stress. Anyway, military looks for import at any pretext. We even have imported 30mm AGL ammo worth thousands of crores of rupees.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby symontk » 09 Sep 2013 13:29

Compared to rifled bore, smoothbore is supposed to subjected to less stress


Isn't this an assumption?

If you see thru a commonsense physics, when a shell goes thru a smooth bore at high speeds, it does spend all its force against sides of the barrel. Whereas in rifled barrel, the shell spends some of its energy in rotation

Did I assume it wrong?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2013 16:38

symontk wrote:
Karan M wrote:Shubh shubh bolo, why do you want that issue to plague Arjuns as well?
The gun burst is due to improper manufacture by OFB, nothing to do with smoothbores or the like.


I don't want to have issues for Arjun, but its really strange that only smoothbores have issues and not rifled ones. In India's case, same OFB manufactures sets for both Arjun and T-series. One has issue other doesn't have


As I recall midhani manufactures Arjun barrels. Plus DRDO monitors Arjun integration and deputes scientists for ensuring tech transfer is done properly and process is followed. Any deviation has to be cleared by them
Unlike OFB Russian gun example where OFB ended up changing the process on its own and the issue was discovered only during rectification. This is the challenge with self certification especially when the manufacturer is as slipshod as OFB and second, does not know the specifics of the product in detail not having designed it

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nits » 09 Sep 2013 22:36

Déjà vu : Can DRDO’s FMBT Project survive Russia’s Next Gen Tank Project ?

While Arjun MK-II Has been going through fresh Army trials for last few months as per improvements and upgrades required by Indian army, there is also a possibility that they will be no fresh orders for Arjun MK-II, Army has been asking DRDO to focus on Futuristic Main Battle Tank (FMBT) project.

But Army is still undecided on the specifications for its next generation battle tank. According to sources close to idrw.org Indian army was not much interested in DRDO’s FMBT Project in the first place and even pulled in Israelis tank consultants for advice on development of next gen Tanks. Israelis left India with a puzzled look, since Indian army was advised by them to invest in future variants based on Arjun tank and not to go for building a new tank from scratch like they want for FMBT.

Arjun MBT was tested by Israeli tank experts in India to validate DRDO’s claim that Tank is fighting fit and has overcome all the technical issues earlier reported by Indian army , it was termed “Desert Ferrari “ by Israeli’s for its brute fire power and impressive armour . According to sources Indian Army only considered working with DRDO when Russians confirmed cancellation of “T-95” Tank Project they were working on.

But according to recent media reports Russian Leadership were shown several prototypes of the Russia’s next generation Armata main battle tank which will go for testing this year , The Armata’s design incorporates aspects of other projects, including Object 195 and Black Eagle which were cancelled by Russia , Armata tank will reportedly feature a remotely controlled gun and fully automated loading, as well as a separate crew compartment made from composite materials and protected by multilayered armour.

Russian Army will start taking delivery of these new tanks by 2015 and it is likely that Russian army will be ordering more than 2000 tanks to replace older T-tanks in its arsenal and will also be available for exports. DRDO’s FMBT is yet to take off from Paper since Army is yet to work out on the specification of the tank, it will be interested to see if DRDO Project survives, Indian Armies love for Russian T-tanks, since they always will be pushed from Russians for possible sale of new Tank.


Image

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2013 04:05

WTF are those images? Are they of some movie set props?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby NRao » 10 Sep 2013 04:36

Karan M wrote:WTF are those images? Are they of some movie set props?


Latest tin cans, waiting for Indian funds?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nits » 10 Sep 2013 11:10

^^ they are so called Russia’s next generation Armata main battle tank

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Austin » 10 Sep 2013 14:30

Usual crappy stuff from IDRW , put some PS stuff invent a story and call it Armata :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby karan_mc » 10 Sep 2013 18:42

Pretty much matches to what was displayed in russian expo

Image

Image

Ok here we go some news from russia

Russian Armata Tank to Enter Testing in November

@NITS , you left out interesting bit of information

Armata tank will be equipped with new generation 125mm smoothbore gun with an automatic loader and 32 rounds ready to use. Armata shown has a secondary weapon that could be a 57mm grenade launcher mounted on the left of the turret, and a machine gun 12.7 mm mounted on the right side.

Russian Armata will be equipped with a multifuel Diesel engine developing 1,400 to 1,600 hp. There is information that the Armata would also have electric transmission to reduce weight of the vehicle and increase the use of add-on armour. Suspension consists on each side of seven dual rubber-tyre road wheels.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2013 20:45

Ok since the IDRW support squad is here.., trying to justify the photo selection.. I can see.ru at the end but please provide the proper source.
Are sir, at least show the webpage where you copied the pic from and let the public see? These tanks look like some vismods for some movie...those weird designs on the glacis make no sense ..very surprising prototypes if they really are that...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rajanb » 10 Sep 2013 21:17

Actually Karan. The test is whether the tank subscribes to the same brochuritis that the Arjun MK2 has been subjected to.

And holy smokes> It can't fire an ATGM :((

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Boreas » 10 Sep 2013 22:16

karan_mc wrote:Pretty much matches to what was displayed in russian expo

Image
Image



nothing matches between those two!

That orange painted charade is a T-64 chassis with some plastic surgery.. created for a Russian movie called Obitaemyy ostrov.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby NRao » 10 Sep 2013 22:23

Boreas wrote:
nothing matches between those two!

That orange painted charade is a T-64 chassis with some plastic surgery.. created for a Russian movie called Obitaemyy ostrov.


A very good project for Indian funds. That is exactly what we should be looking for - more tin cans from Russia. Perfect.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby karan_mc » 10 Sep 2013 23:24

Karan M wrote:Ok since the IDRW support squad is here.., trying to justify the photo selection.. I can see.ru at the end but please provide the proper source.
Are sir, at least show the webpage where you copied the pic from and let the public see? These tanks look like some vismods for some movie...those weird designs on the glacis make no sense ..very surprising prototypes if they really are that...


Arre sir at least stop taking cheap potshots at me which is your favourite bullying tactics here in br. I posted russan link here and i posted images from russian defence forums . You can't be so naive not to find same pictures I have posted online . So move your butt and do some research .

Idrw links weren't posted by me .unless you think nits n I are same.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 11 Sep 2013 02:05

Wow, karan mc asking you for sources, is "cheap bullying tactics" and "taking potshots at you"....and on top of it, you have the gall to suggest "So move your butt and do some research".. guess what, if you moved your butt and did some research, and gave a proper reply, I wouldnt have those doubts to begin with..

Plus, its pretty much a given that you are the resident IDRW supporter, who appears whenever anyone raises doubts about IDRW.

So lets get to the point..
Where is that red tank pic from?

Have you even looked at the model in your own picture before stating confidently its the same as those in the tanks? Take a look at the turret, take a look at those guns/pods on the side of the turret, take a look at how bizarrely the turret is arranged/designed and how there are many shot traps/weakened spots in the glacis.. in contrast, the pictures on your links (available in Google on page1), are of a much more refined design, with a crew less turret, and very different gun/launcher pods.

Consider the above... as versus dismissing other folks questions about IDRW's scifi claims. The report is a bit dodgy anyways, but its the picture which is interesting.. is it real, or is it not.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 11 Sep 2013 02:37

Boreas wrote:
karan_mc wrote:Pretty much matches to what was displayed in russian expo

Image
Image



nothing matches between those two!

That orange painted charade is a T-64 chassis with some plastic surgery.. created for a Russian movie called Obitaemyy ostrov.


Thank you Boreas!! As i thought, it turned out to be a movie prop!!

And lets see what our IDRW folks told us instead...

Pretty much matches to what was displayed in russian expo


Enough said..

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 11 Sep 2013 02:40

rajanb wrote:Actually Karan. The test is whether the tank subscribes to the same brochuritis that the Arjun MK2 has been subjected to.

And holy smokes> It can't fire an ATGM :((


Rajan ji, it will be a big pain if the IA armor guys fall for this charade yet again.. reports are that FMBT weight goals are again unrealistic (circa 40T), and we are headed for more of the usual if the specs don't get rationalized..

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby VinodTK » 11 Sep 2013 04:45

Preparing for a two-front war
By: Ajai Shukla

Shifting gears, the Indian military is transforming an exclusively defensive strategy into one with a significant offensive element

For decades, the Indian military and its defence posture were structured to ensure "deterrence" against Pakistani adventurism on the western border, and "dissuasion" against China in the north and east. Put simply, that meant being able to wage, and quickly win, a punitive war against Pakistan; while also being able to hold off a Chinese attack for a short time. With China having rattled sabres on the Sino-Indian border (the Line of Actual Control, or LAC) to distract India during the Indo-Pakistan wars of 1965 and 1971, New Delhi is clear that it must continue to defend the LAC, even through a war with Pakistan.

But what has been a relatively light presence on the China border is now being strengthened dramatically, as India's military prepares itself for what the Indian Army chief in 2009, General Deepak Kapoor, termed a two-front war. This apprehension was also voiced by his successor, General V K Singh. China's emergence as a global powerhouse that pursues its national interests and territorial claims unapologetically has forced New Delhi to rethink its basic security calculus. This could have enormous implications on Indian defence spending, procurement and the emerging defence industry in the country.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 11 Sep 2013 12:15

BAZINGA!!!

http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/preparing-for-a-two-front-war-113091001026_1.html

For decades, the Indian military and its defence posture were structured to ensure "deterrence" against Pakistani adventurism on the western border, and "dissuasion" against China in the north and east. Put simply, that meant being able to wage, and quickly win, a punitive war against Pakistan; while also being able to hold off a Chinese attack for a short time. With China having rattled sabres on the Sino-Indian border (the Line of Actual Control, or LAC) to distract India during the Indo-Pakistan wars of 1965 and 1971, New Delhi is clear that it must continue to defend the LAC, even through a war with Pakistan.


The operational scenario along LAC is also governed by the weather and seasonality - one good point in our favor is that the windows for all-out war are mutually exclusive in case of China and Pakistan. The preferred window of operation on western front is post monsoon towards Q3-Q4 of calendar year - during this period, the eastern front is blocked due to snow and operations will be restricted. This factor, along with operational scenario, has allowed India to move up to three divisions to western front.

But what has been a relatively light presence on the China border is now being strengthened dramatically, as India's military prepares itself for what the Indian Army chief in 2009, General Deepak Kapoor, termed a two-front war. This apprehension was also voiced by his successor, General V K Singh. China's emergence as a global powerhouse that pursues its national interests and territorial claims unapologetically has forced New Delhi to rethink its basic security calculus. This could have enormous implications on Indian defence spending, procurement and the emerging defence industry in the country.


Chinese have to be the most stupid people on God's earth - they could have kept quite without creating high-profile situations on the border as they went by upgrading their infrastructure. The Chinese actions on the border along with nonsense of stapled visas and stuff like that created a alarmist situation;inspite of the peace-nicks and China apologists that occupy the NSAB and CSG, GOI was forced to react. The news items released into the media further forced GOI hand. So much for Chinese real-politic prowess.

As the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China has modernised; created quality road and rail infrastructure in Tibet that permits rapid build-up and switching of forces between sectors; and conducted annual manoeuvres involving the rapid build-up in Tibet of divisions from other theatres, New Delhi too is shifting gears on the LAC. After years of deliberation and debate, the Indian military has added defensive muscle and is transforming an exclusively defensive strategy into one with a significant offensive element.


Chinese forces in Tibetan Plateau are not even 20% of Indian forces - on eastern front, Chinese would be hard pressed to muster two Category A Divisions. They rely on infrastructure to bring in troops and their perception of defensive GOI foreign and defense policy to bully India and raise the ante if required.

"China spends nearly one-fourth of its (estimated $120 billion annual defence budget) in the borders with India and is reflected in over 30 military exercises conducted in and around Tibet in the last two years," notes Srikanth Kondapalli, Professor in Chinese Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University.


PLA is slowly building up capability for large scale conflict with India -till now, it has all being bluster. The final indicator of this development would be placing more troops - something like a Group Army with full compliment - on Tibetan Plateau. As of now, Group Armies controlling formations in Western and Eastern front are all located outside of Tibetan Plateau.

India's counter to China's growing strength started with the raising of two mountain divisions (some 40,000 troops), during the 11th Defence Plan (2007-12), which have already beefed up defences on the McMahon Line, the border between Arunachal Pradesh and Tibet.


Before this raising happened, 4 Corps has three divisions while 3 Corps had only one division. Each Corps has received one of the new raised division. Further, IA transferred 2 Mountain Division from 4 Corps to 3 Corps. Now, the Area of Responsibility (AOR) is divided as eastern AP along Myanmar with 3 Corps and Central+Western AP (including Tawang and eastern India-Bhutan border) with 4 Corps.

3 Corps - 2 MD, 56 MD and 57 MD (new division)
4 Corps - 5 MD (Tawang), 21 MD and 71 MD (new division)

Today four Indian corps defend the LAC - 14 Corps holds Ladakh; 33 Corps defends Sikkim; and 4 Corps and 3 Corps safeguard Arunachal Pradesh. The ten divisions under these corps have roughly 220,000 troops. But that may not be enough, says Professor Kondapalli. Across the LAC in the PLA's Chengdu and Lanzhou military regions, are 400,000 troops of the 13th, 14th, 21st and 47th Group Armies (the equivalent of corps).


This is the problem with Indian defense analysts - they take numbers and figures at face value. And apply them without any thought.

PLA has cut down the size of its Group Armies drastically to make them more agile and maneuverable. So, before one talks about 400,000 troops, one needs to understand the development with respect to each Group Army in question. Further, these Group Armies also consist of armored brigades, mechanize brigades and armored divisions - what good are these formations against India in eastern theater?

My guess is that Indian formations optimized from day-1 for mountain warfare are more infantry and manpower heavy as compared to their PLA counterparts. For proper analysis, we need to compare brigade level (or, infantry battalion level) troop strenght. Along with support arms like helicopter and artillery assets.

To partially even out this mismatch, India is raising a "mountain strike corps" during the 12th and 13th Defence Plans (2012-22). Analysts like Brigadier (Retired) Gurmeet Kanwal estimate that the strike corps will have 90,000 troops and raising it will cost Rs 64,000 crore over the next seven years. But more than the numbers, India's decision to raise a strike corps is a decision to raise the ante with China. It is a statement from New Delhi that any war that China initiates will not be fought just on Indian soil. The strike corps is tasked to launch attacks across the LAC, taking the war to China.


Along with this unprecedented army build-up, the Indian Air Force (IAF) too is turning its attention to the LAC. Sukhoi-30MKI squadrons have been located in Tezpur and Chhabua, in Assam. Jorhat, Guwahati, Mohanbari, Bagdogra and Hashimara air bases are being strengthened too. Eight old ALGs (Advanced Landing Grounds) have been refurbished so that they can support light aircraft and helicopters. The multi-billion dollar acquisitions of ten C-17 Globemaster III heavy lift aircraft, six C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft and the impending procurement of the CH-47 Chinook heavy lift helicopter will further strengthen capabilities on the LAC.

This remarkable force accretion, India's largest since the 1962 war with China, could have a potentially galvanising effect on the country's defence industrial base. The growth of local industry could be catalysed not just through direct procurement of arms and equipment, but also through industrial partnerships with global original equipment manufacturers (OEMs), who would be discharging offset liabilities arising from billions of dollars of procurement. Furthermore, there would be opportunities for Indian companies to participate in the maintenance, repair and overhaul of the equipment being procuring for India's on-going force expansion and modernisation.


Besides equipping tens of thousands of soldiers, the major new acquisitions that could arise include 400-450 ultra light howitzers (ULH) for seven new artillery brigades - one each for the four new mountain divisions, and three directly under the strike corps. Negotiations are already under way for 145 pieces of BAE Systems' M-777 155-millimetre, 39-calibre howitzers for up to $885 million. If the army is satisfied with this weapon, it could purchase as many as 900-950 more for the artillery regiments of 15 more mountain divisions. In that case, the MoD would press BAE Systems hard to shift production of the M-777 to India.


Two very important points here:

(1) Four new mountain divisions - Only two mountain divisions have been raised so far. I explained that earlier. If AS's report is correct, Indian Army is looking to add another 2 x Mountain Divisions. With eastern front being beefed up already, it might well be right to guess that Central Sector (Uttarakhand) and Eastern Ladakh are going to see addition of 1 x division each.

If people remember the news about raising of new independent infantry bdes, 1 x (I) infantry bde was sanctioned for Central Sector. Along with existing (I) Mountain Bde in the sector, this would have taken the number to two (I) infantry bdes. Now, it is quite possible that IA wants to do away with multiple (I) Infantry Bdes and raise a new division.

Eastern Ladakh has been witnessing beefing up of troops and a new infantry division would make eminent sense. Will help rationalize the AOR of 3 Infantry Division in Leh.

(2) MSC - till now, all we have heard is that the MSC will have 2 x Divisions under it. This is the first time I' hearing of MSC with 3 x Divisions. Now, I don't know how easy or difficult would it be to manage such a large formation (the Command & Control would present immense challenge) but this puts the MSC in a totally different light. I'm pretty sure that IA has worked out some unconventional deployment philosophy for this Corps.

So, taking into account 3 x divisions each under 33, 3 and 4 Corps, we will have 12 x Divisions in Eastern Command.

Surprisingly, no one is talking about the Artillery Division sanctioned for Eastern Command.

Also, the number of M-777 required for seven artillery brigades works out as (a) 4 x regiments per brigade with 18 guns = 504 (b) 5 x regiments per brigade with 18 guns = 630 guns.

Additional 15 Mountain Divisions would be 9 x existing divisions under Eastern Command and balance 6 x divisions under Northern Command. As I had said some time back - given our overall mountain warfare requirement, don't be surprised if we surpass USA as the largest operator of this gun. And manufacture it in house.

There is also a growing requirement for helicopters to airlift troops on "vertical envelopment" missions to capture heights in the enemy's rear and flanks. India is negotiating to buy 15 CH-47 Chinook heavy lift helicopters, an order that could well be expanded. The tried and tested Russian Mi-17 V5 helicopter that the IAF has already ordered in large numbers could potentially see additional demand.


This is the most important aspect - the 64K Crore price tag is without fail because of very strong organic helicopter component. Chinook requirement arises from aspects - existing air-maintenance responsibilities plus those contingent on the new offensive war-fighting philosophy for mountains. That is why IA is asking for control/induction of Mi-17 class of helicopters.

<SNIP>

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 11 Sep 2013 14:20

VinodTK wrote:Preparing for a two-front war
By: Ajai Shukla


This must be news to Ajai Shukla only...a 2-front war doctrine in some shape or the other has existed from Sundarji's time. One would have looked forward to some update on VK Singh's transformational study etc. but since the former COAS is now persona non grata guess all the good work has also been buried for now, by the looks of it.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 11 Sep 2013 14:40

RajitO wrote:
VinodTK wrote:Preparing for a two-front war
By: Ajai Shukla


This must be news to Ajai Shukla only...a 2-front war doctrine in some shape or the other has existed from Sundarji's time. One would have looked forward to some update on VK Singh's transformational study etc. but since the former COAS is now persona non grata guess all the good work has also been buried for now, by the looks of it.


Can you shed some light on it? Thanks.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Rahul M » 11 Sep 2013 14:57

rohit, nitpick.
>> 4 Corps - 5 MD (Tawang), 21 MD and 71 MD (new division)

5 MD is near bomdila, at a place called tenga. there's 190 Mtn Bde aka korean bde HQ'ed at tawang.

regarding PLA holdings I had put some comments in your blog.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 11 Sep 2013 15:29

Rahul M wrote:rohit, nitpick.
>> 4 Corps - 5 MD (Tawang), 21 MD and 71 MD (new division)

5 MD is near bomdila, at a place called tenga. there's 190 Mtn Bde aka korean bde HQ'ed at tawang.

regarding PLA holdings I had put some comments in your blog.


Chief - I meant 5 MD responsible for Tawang and not based out of it. I'm aware of the location. 'Tenga Valley' is a pretty famous in IA.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby karan_mc » 11 Sep 2013 16:26

Army wanted to buy 300 Light Tanks for use in semi mountainous and mountainous regions in the North and North East way back in 2009 , any progress on that ?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 11 Sep 2013 19:55

rohitvats wrote:Preparing for a two-front war
By: Ajai Shukla


This must be news to Ajai Shukla only...a 2-front war doctrine in some shape or the other has existed from Sundarji's time. One would have looked forward to some update on VK Singh's transformational study etc. but since the former COAS is now persona non grata guess all the good work has also been buried for now, by the looks of it.

Can you shed some light on it? Thanks.


Regarding Sundarji's time, if you check out the timelines for Op Brasstacks and Sumdurong Chu escalations, had things gone ballistic, everyone would have found out what a 2-front war would have looked like and what Sundarji's plan to fight them was--his mad genius being the biggest unknown. Broadly, by the disposition of forces and evaluation of intent, a "limited" holding action in the East and a full spectrum engagement in the west is what it might have gone down as.

VK Singh's efforts are better chronicled and talks about a "two and a half front war" keeping mind CI duties as well and is an across the board overhaul. The real meat is in each of the rumored 13 transformation studies that cover making wholesale changes to almost every aspect of the army's functioning.

If Ajai Shukla wanted to really earn his chops as a defence analyst he would address these issues, but phoning in regurgitated articles is an easier way to pay the bills I guess.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 11 Sep 2013 20:06

RV garu... I think you meant 56 Div as the new Div instead of 57 (Red Shield) Div

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Samudragupta » 11 Sep 2013 20:32

RajitO wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Preparing for a two-front war
By: Ajai Shukla


This must be news to Ajai Shukla only...a 2-front war doctrine in some shape or the other has existed from Sundarji's time. One would have looked forward to some update on VK Singh's transformational study etc. but since the former COAS is now persona non grata guess all the good work has also been buried for now, by the looks of it.

Can you shed some light on it? Thanks.


Regarding Sundarji's time, if you check out the timelines for Op Brasstacks and Sumdurong Chu escalations, had things gone ballistic, everyone would have found out what a 2-front war would have looked like and what Sundarji's plan to fight them was--his mad genius being the biggest unknown. Broadly, by the disposition of forces and evaluation of intent, a "limited" holding action in the East and a full spectrum engagement in the west is what it might have gone down as.

VK Singh's efforts are better chronicled and talks about a "two and a half front war" keeping mind CI duties as well and is an across the board overhaul. The real meat is in each of the rumored 13 transformation studies that cover making wholesale changes to almost every aspect of the army's functioning.

If Ajai Shukla wanted to really earn his chops as a defence analyst he would address these issues, but phoning in regurgitated articles is an easier way to pay the bills I guess.


And u think those 13 TS will b declassifid info.....

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 11 Sep 2013 21:41

Samudragupta wrote:
And u think those 13 TS will b declassifid info.....


No, but addressing and analyzing (which is where the analyst bit comes in) issues like theater commands, teeth-to tail ratios, integrated battle groups, army aviation etc. does not require violation of the OSA.

All it requires is putting in some hard work, (like finding out in the HTT-40 hatchet piece that the zero-zero ejection seat was a HAL defined spec, and having the aviation knowledge to understand that a zero-zero ejection seat requires another zero as well to work safely :wink: )...but I guess that is for the DDM thread.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 11 Sep 2013 22:35

Problem is most of the army's plans regarding firepower accretion rarely follow any timeline, as the procurement system (in which the IA takes a fair share of the blame) is totally messed up. Piecemeal ordering of systems and MOD blacklists are another challenge. C3I projects dependent on BEL are also muddling along.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby darshhan » 12 Sep 2013 00:25

VinodTK wrote:Preparing for a two-front war
By: Ajai Shukla

Shifting gears, the Indian military is transforming an exclusively defensive strategy into one with a significant offensive element

For decades, the Indian military and its defence posture were structured to ensure "deterrence" against Pakistani adventurism on the western border, and "dissuasion" against China in the north and east. Put simply, that meant being able to wage, and quickly win, a punitive war against Pakistan; while also being able to hold off a Chinese attack for a short time. With China having rattled sabres on the Sino-Indian border (the Line of Actual Control, or LAC) to distract India during the Indo-Pakistan wars of 1965 and 1971, New Delhi is clear that it must continue to defend the LAC, even through a war with Pakistan.

But what has been a relatively light presence on the China border is now being strengthened dramatically, as India's military prepares itself for what the Indian Army chief in 2009, General Deepak Kapoor, termed a two-front war. This apprehension was also voiced by his successor, General V K Singh. China's emergence as a global powerhouse that pursues its national interests and territorial claims unapologetically has forced New Delhi to rethink its basic security calculus. This could have enormous implications on Indian defence spending, procurement and the emerging defence industry in the country.
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Headline could also read " Increasing the Profitability of US Military Industrial Complex " .

I can bet that China will not be defeated on the strength of imported arms i.e if they decide to prolong the conflict.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Ghatotkacha » 12 Sep 2013 01:15

darshhan wrote:
VinodTK wrote:Preparing for a two-front war
By: Ajai Shukla



Headline could also read " Increasing the Profitability of US Military Industrial Complex " .

I can bet that China will not be defeated on the strength of imported arms i.e if they decide to prolong the conflict.


That is a very nice observation.
We should invest more on local defense industry if we are really serious about winning the two front war. And also serious on winning over the unemployment rate in the country.

It is time to create a parallel organization similar to DRDO so that both can compete each other and contracts are awarded based on their track records and on same line employees bonus and pay are also determined by organization's performance.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 12 Sep 2013 09:13

Ajay Sharma wrote:RV garu... I think you meant 56 Div as the new Div instead of 57 (Red Shield) Div


Damn! I am getting old.

56 MD is the new Division. 57 MD is the earlier one. Thanks for correction.


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