India Border Watch: Security and Operations

[Lalmohan]

no aircraft within 10km of the LOC?
artillery is the answer

[RamaY]

Are there any civilians in the village? Is that the reason why IA is not using heavy firing? I would have sanitized the area with Pinaka MBRL a KM on both sides of the border and then start the anti-insurgency operations.

[pralay]

a salvo or two of pinaka will be appreciated as well
And we can make a nice video of it for uploading on youtube

[pankajs]

Disclaimer: I do not know what the terrain is like in the area of operation.

Reasons
1. The area of interest could be far from where a Bofors or Pinaka could be deployed. If you can not drive these pieces to within range you cannot use them.
2. Behind a land feature that would allow targeting with a ballistic shell or rocket.
3. Too close to the border for political bosses to permit heavy arty.

[vishvak]

What kind of border restrictions are these even during infiltration.

About not attacking aerial way is it not possible to attack from 10+ kilometers. In fact sorties without ammunition isn't even an attack, its more like an exercise. This must occur with full knowledge that political restrictions disallow certain defensive measures within own borders.

If bodies are recovered and turns out that paki army is part of infiltration doesn't it make possible to attack pak? We are bound to serve country which shouldn't be ignored under excuses.

If there are political interference in anti insurgency operations should not it come out too?

[Prem Kumar]

The problem with not using gunships, airforce or artillery immediately is that the enemy will escape to fight another day. Though reports are sketchy in details, some talked about a logistics chain being established from the other side of the LOC. Today's reports talk about the infiltrators pulling back. So, I dont think the cordon encircles the area completely

If the pigs come in these kinds of numbers, they should be neutralized with "extreme prejudice" as the yanks say. However, this upping of the ante needs to be done at the political level. It should start with this being named a Kargil-like incursion and not an infiltration.

This is the reason the Army needs its armed drones asap. The powers will be decentralized to the local unit & armed-drones wouldnt be considered escalatory. The pigs can be finished off quickly & not allowed to escape.

Garooda: the Army is using drones for surveillance in this op already. There was a picture of drones tracking about 5-6 infiltrators.

[Garooda]

Garooda: the Army is using drones for surveillance in this op already. There was a picture of drones tracking about 5-6 infiltrators.

Aah so the targets are acquired and in sight. Wonder what kind of political pressure is holding up IA then. If the operation has stretched out for 9 days then I wonder if there are unusually large number of infiltrators and thus takes more time to track them all and possibly take them out?

[Lalmohan]

at the weekend i saw an interview on undtie-tee-vee with senior army cdr in j&k who was talking about this (after being asked about samba) - he mentioned large incursion, robust response, some pictures were shown - looked like night vision long range images, etc

a good jhapaD is required

[ramana]

Garooda: the Army is using drones for surveillance in this op already. There was a picture of drones tracking about 5-6 infiltrators.

Aah so the targets are acquired and in sight. Wonder what kind of political pressure is holding up IA then. If the operation has stretched out for 9 days then I wonder if there are unusually large number of infiltrators and thus takes more time to track them all and possibly take them out?

The infiltration happend during the PM's talks in NYC.

There might have been instructions not to blow it up prior to that meeting. Most likely the place got reinforced during the keep it quiet phase.


Now its being leaked to press.

INC is in pre-election mode and can't afford to have lost territory/control especially with senior Army officers hand picked by them


Its BM Kaul affair redux.

Yet Congress pasand media is trying to play it up as local military issue.

Lets see if IA can see thru and redeem itself as it did earlier.


Its a political failure and the Ministers are no where to be seen.

[Garooda]

Thanks Ramana. That sounds very similar to what the US army had gone through (political let down) several times in the past all thanks to the then incharge POTUS. I guess every crisis presents or creates an opportunity? except the ones who created this one are no where close to the bull patty

[pankajs]

Agree Ramana saar.

BJP has demanded a statement from the Defense Minister so the political football will be played out not matter what. It is interesting that the news was accompanied with UAV footage. Army insiders are forcing such issues out inspite of the political bosses. The same thing had happened during the Ladakh standoff too. Competitive media race for breaking news will take care of the rest.

Not an ideal situation. Political bosses not wanting to make hard choices and the Army insiders leaking sensitive op details to put pressure on the political bosses but better than political inaction/surrender of territory.

[ramana]

lets put ourselves in the politicians in power shoes.

The agreed policy of GOI, over all parties which were in govt, is to support the elected govt in TSP as that has legitimacy and not support a military leadership that came to power with coup.


So there will be a tendency to downplay any hostile/anti-India activity which the TSP govt may or maynot have authorized.

However Badmash has a track record of authorizing hostile/anti-India activites and then claim denial when they backfire. Kargil is case in point.

So there has to be a hands on approach and not auto-pilot mode to quiet and downplay all anti Indian activity.

Also time and again there i group think in the IA whenever the big boosess are told to keep it quiet. Kargil case inpoint where the Lahore bus trip made them complacent.

However the commanders in the ground are responsible for the territory under their control They cannot allow big piss moves above their pay grade to allow alteration of facts on the ground.

IOW no loss of territory at all.

They already allow ambushes and beheadings.
Now even territory is being allowed to be occupied.

Not acceptable.

At same time one needs to consider if this was allowed as win to Badmash to get some bogus agreement and it backfired as no agreement was reached?

[Garooda]

lets put ourselves in the politicians in power shoes.
..
At same time one needs to consider if this was allowed as win to Badmash to get some bogus agreement and it backfired as no agreement was reached?

You mean Badmas is being hustled by 'dehati aurat' and/or his cohorts? Possible but its just one possible move or outcome of the chess game IMO.

[pankajs]

My Guess:

Probably the initial view in IA/GOI was of a minor irritant/couple of terrorist sneaking in. When the real situation became apparent (PA's soldier/land grab) MMS was already in NY just about to meet BO and NS. He complained to BO, slammed Pak at UN and tried to tone down the expectation of his meeting NS. NS in frustration called him Dehati Aurat. Both knew by then the outcome of their meeting and the appointment was just to keep appearances.

Not sure if the meeting was for getting some agreement but after this MMS's remaining term will not see any further piss moves.

[Lalmohan]

the real problem was that TSPA pulled the wig off ganja loin's head as he was going in to meet MMS
major be-izzati in front of the banias

[Karan M]

Pankajs, ^+1. MMS of all people speaking tough on his otherwise favourite, Pakistan itself was a give away.

[RoyG]

Dead jihadis carried back to Pakistan.

[vishvak]

Dead jihadis carried back to Pakistan.

Do pakis do that usually? Or may be pukis are taking back bodies to hide legitimate puki army crossing over to terrorize people and thereby avoiding sanctions.

Jihadi dead bodies taken to paki is concrete evidence.

[putnanja]

Endgame near in J&K's Keran sector after 10 days

NEW DELHI: The Army's ongoing " Operation Shala Bhata" against the large group of intruders in the Keran sector in J&K has now entered the "terminal phase" after 10 days, with the remaining militants being pinned down to a smaller area after being surrounded from three sides by Indian soldiers.

"We have foiled one major attempt to resupply the trapped infiltrators with food, ammunition and radio batteries from across the LoC, with active connivance of the Pakistan Army. But smaller bids to resupply them could have gone through. Our aim is not to allow any one of the infiltrators to escape back across the border, the only route now open to them," said a senior officer on Thursday.

With intermittent gunfire still underway in the thickly-forested Shala Bhata region, the Army says it will take "some more time" to "sanitize" the "800x300 metre" area to which the intruders have now been restricted after the "initial contact" was spread across a "4 to 5km frontage" on the night of September 24.
..
...

[putnanja]

Dead jihadis carried back to Pakistan.

Is there a link to that story that you can share ?

[Victor]

Disclaimer: I do not know what the terrain is like in the area of operation.

Remember seeing reports that the encroached area was at 10,000 feet and difficult to attack, ie. uphill. If so, this will explain why the IA has not been able to completely surround the pigs. Clearly very carefully chosen points of infiltration. What was the objective--we need to figure this out asap. Building supply lines is more serious than simply pushing in jehadis.

Also, reports say some were in uniform but we haven't been able to see any bodies yet. What does this mean? Doesn't make sense.

1. The area of interest could be far from where a Bofors or Pinaka could be deployed. If you can not drive these pieces to within range you cannot use them.

Clear cut example of where even a single heli borne M777 could have made pork keema within hours. But of course, Tony's MoD is still chewing the cud and scratching its ass. At this point, even 5 ULHs as loaners will be an excellent idea.

[ramana]

So "Dehati Aurat" was in context of MMS informing/complaining to BO of Badmash acts of repeat perfidy.

[putnanja]

Gunfight on, army tries to push back J-K intruders

The fierce gunfight in Kashmir’s Keran sector that looked like a massive infiltration attempt 10 days ago has now snowballed into a battle for “territorial control” between the Indian Army and Pakistan-backed terrorists, government sources have told HT.
...
...
The army admitted that the terrorists were on Indian soil but denied being pushed out of its posts.

“There is no report regarding our troops having had to vacate their posts, but yes they are in our territory,” the army’s spokesperson told HT.
...
Reports on Thursday said 10-12 more infiltrators had joined the terrorists.

The army has laid a cordon to prevent the infiltrators from sneaking into the Kashmir Valley but the focus now is on reclaiming territory and pushing the infiltrators back across the line of control breached at multiple points.
...
...
A military source, however, admitted that the audacious infiltration attempt was made last week as that particular part of the LoC was vulnerable with a rotation of units underway.

The bid was made when 3/3 Gorkha Rifles, deployed in the Karen sector for almost three years, was making way for 20 Kumaon.

Sometimes units tend to drop guard at the fag-end of the LoC tenure and terrorists attempt to exploit that ‘window’, a senior army official told HT.
....
...
The gun battle in Karen is showing no signs of abating. The army, a government official told HT, was not willing to set a time frame.

That the standoff in the heights of Keran that are also heavily wooded is different from previous infiltration attempts was clear when Lt Gen Gurmeet Singh, GoC, 15 Corps, spoke to mediapersons on Wednesday. He didn’t deny the fact that while bodies of infiltrators had been spotted, they had not been retrieved.

He confirmed that the daring infiltration bid and the firepower of the intruders clearly indicated the support of Pakistani special forces.

Indian army sources said sporadic firing was still on and the gun battle would continue for at least a couple of days. “The operation is entering its terminal stage and could take another 12 to 36 hours,’’ said the army spokesperson.

WTF??? fighting to regain territory from "terrorists"? A localized Kargil now??

[Prem Kumar]

Clear cut example of where even a single heli borne M777 could have made pork keema within hours. But of course, Tony's MoD is still chewing the cud and scratching its ass. At this point, even 5 ULHs as loaners will be an excellent idea.

Helicopter gunships are available & can be used. Some earlier reports talked about it before they were hush-hushed. Dont know if the "cant use air force in our backyard" argument is used by the politicos again to tie the Army's hands.

Another reason for not bombing might be that they want to get identifiable bodies to prove that some of them are SSG

[Karan M]

Escalation, when we have a habit of fighting on our side only, is a dicey thing. Start using gunships regularly, the PA will send across Anza's and Stingers, and who knows they might end up targeting civilian flights too. At the end of the day, if you fight on your side, and keep ceding the start the fight bit to the adversary, such a defensive play is what you will be restricted to, even if you kill the x people he sent across. The obvious answer is then to use the IAF's fixed wing assets with LGBs etc, but to do that is again a change from the defensive mindset so assiduously cultivated by GOI. If this was the US, their access to tech apart, they would have definitely attempted to use fixed wing airpower. Heck, they drop 1000 lb'ers in the middle of cities to take out 1-2 snipers.

This proportionate response stuff by the GOI and IA has clearly failed. Using 40mm L-70s to take out a few of their bunkers AFTER they provoke an attack. Shooting a few of their people dead AFTER they behead our soldiers. Engaging their people on our side of the LOC AFTER they infiltrate..

Clearly, there is no deterrence and there will be none as long as MMS is in power. He has shackled the IA to his selfish desire to treat Pakistanis as best buddies and there is no clear covert success either.

Further, if conventional conflict beckons, it will be a war of attrition since Cold Start has not been implemented equipment wise.
MMS and co are culpable here too. Wikil. clearly mentions there was a political element to Cold Start not being supported by the Govt of India, with ex NSA Narayanan against the idea. Given current establishment was similarly pro-talks and what not, one can imagine the issue. It took VKS to push the issue and only then some arms and munitions started flowing. For doing this, VKS was targeted and the sell out MSM made it out that he did this to "embarass the govt.". Never mind what the Govt had done or rather failed to do.

St Anthony in the chair at MOD means the already inefficient IA procurement is further hobbled.

Pretty bad state of affairs all around.

[Victor]

VKS has stated that had TDS been in place, this would not have happened. Only after Bikramjit Singh folded TDS have these bigger, bolder intrusions started to happen. Its almost as if MMS & Co actually want it to happen. Blood of Indian jawans is squarely on their heads.

[Victor]

Helicopter gunships are available & can be used.....
Another reason for not bombing might be that they want to get identifiable bodies to prove that some of them are SSG

Our current gunships don't have the ability to target warm bodies in thick jungle or at night. The Apaches do and would have made short work of these pigs.

Start using gunships regularly, the PA will send across Anza's and Stingers, and who knows they might end up targeting civilian flights too.

We will fry paki ass if manpads are used and bomb the crap out of them. This is why manpads are rarely used even in Afg--everyone knows whose they are and what the repercussions will be.

[Victor]

This is the terrain in Keran area--10,000 ft ridges all around on Indian side with no roads. On paki side there is a nice road called the Neelam Valley Highway.

[Cosmo_R]

Helicopter gunships are available & can be used.....
Another reason for not bombing might be that they want to get identifiable bodies to prove that some of them are SSG

Our current gunships don't have the ability to target warm bodies in thick jungle or at night. The Apaches do and would have made short work of these pigs.

Start using gunships regularly, the PA will send across Anza's and Stingers, and who knows they might end up targeting civilian flights too.

We will fry paki ass if manpads are used and bomb the crap out of them. This is why manpads are rarely used even in Afg--everyone knows whose they are and what the repercussions will be.

+1

I'm really weary of people saying " if we respond with counter force, they will then do x or y or z so we cannot." In any game football, cricket or whatever, no team wins by fielding alone or saving goal kicks. You have to put up points on the board to occupy their defenders. Else, you have 11 guys covering their nether parts while the opposing 11 takes turns at penalties.

Deterrence at a conventional level is disproportionate response to provocation—preferably asymmetric and plausibly deniable.

Between the dehati aurat, the vilayati one and the moonbeam prince we are cooked.

If the stingers and the manpads come, so will collateral damage to defense colonies in Karachi and Islamabad and all of Pakistan could be a no fly zone for their civilian a/c.

IOW, put the burden of rationalization on the PA/ISI. If they are not rational, then our rationality has no impact on what their next step is anyway.

[Sunilchurchill]

All that is needed is to send the Aman Ki Asha types... Mani Aiyer, Bakra Dutt, need to share chai biskoot with the non state actors from across the LOC..

[Philip]

The media today say that the swine are holed up in an "800 X 400" m box.Now surely just one sortie by a couple of GA aircraft armed with incendiaries and cluster munitions would suffice? We have not signed on for good reasons such as this current spat,the treaty banning the use of such munitions. Whenever there is a prolonged intrusion,lasting days,where no air power has been used we sometimes find that some of the terrorists have escaped within Kashmir or have retreated back across the LOC and that they've even carried the bodies back in certain cases.Given the harshness of the terrain,it is difficult for the IA to eradicate them swiftly.Prolonged attempts by the IA to end the incursion often leads to more casualties on our side.Therefore to minimise our casualties and effect a swift end to the intrusion,the use of air power is a must.As some panellists on telly have been saying,these incursions are actually a series of mini-wars being perpetrated by Pak.The reluctance to use air power in sending these vermin to their deserved end stinks of the defeatist mentality of the quisling Singh and his cronies,who want a "peace in our time" with Pak at any cost,the lives of Indian soldiers be damned.

[Rahul M]

Helicopter gunships are available & can be used.....
Another reason for not bombing might be that they want to get identifiable bodies to prove that some of them are SSG

Our current gunships don't have the ability to target warm bodies in thick jungle or at night. The Apaches do and would have made short work of these pigs.

victor, this advertising of amriki weapons at every opportunity is getting really tiring. just FYI our hinds are night capable.

[Karan M]

Start using gunships regularly, the PA will send across Anza's and Stingers, and who knows they might end up targeting civilian flights too.

We will fry paki ass if manpads are used and bomb the crap out of them. This is why manpads are rarely used even in Afg--everyone knows whose they are and what the repercussions will be.

They are rarely used in Afghan because they were not available in plenty to the Afghans from Pak. The US did all it could and is now crawling back from Afghanistan. All that bombing did little. What deters Pak is loss of jizya aid.

We will do this, we will do that is easy to talk about when we and completely unrealistic when we havent done anything to deter Pak yet under the current GOI and are unlikely to either.

[Karan M]

victor, this advertising of amriki weapons at every opportunity is getting really tiring. just FYI our hinds are night capable.

+1

[Victor]

victor, this advertising of amriki weapons at every opportunity is getting really tiring. just FYI our hinds are night capable.

Rahul, I will root for India to have the best weapons available as quickly as possible and when the forces choose American weapons over all others, I will root for them even more. This is just my slant, its who I am. Likewise, I appreciate folks here who root for Russian weapons. That's their slant, its who they are. Unfortunately we don't yet have comparable Indian weapons to root for and when we do, I'll be rooting for them.

I know the Hind has FLIR and NVG but they are not as good as the Apache by a long shot. Same with the M777, nothing comes close when there are no roads. The "advertising" has already been done a long time ago and the IA and IAF have chosen. I support them heartily.

[Karan M]

"That is my slant"

Good to know.

Can you point how exactly the FLIR and NVG on the Hind are behind those on the Apache? Apparently so much so that..

"Our current gunships don't have the ability to target warm bodies in the jungle or at night"

[Victor]

Can you point how exactly the FLIR and NVG on the Hind are behind those on the Apache?

When the IAF and IA could have ordered 10 Hinds for every Apache, why did they still chose the latter?

[Karan M]

Can you point how exactly the FLIR and NVG on the Hind are behind those on the Apache?

When the IAF and IA could have ordered 10 Hinds for every Apache, why did they still chose the latter?

Still doesn't answer the question. On the other hand it does indicate you didn't know about the FLIR and NVG capability of the Hind and were shooting from the hip. Even the Rudra being inducted has FLIR and NVG.

As to why more Hinds are not being ordered, there are a bunch of reasons. It's been known for a while now that the Hind by virtue of its troop carrying capability, is outsized and cannot really hover effectively, in hot conditions. And that's its replacement the Mi-28 has been struggling with technical challenges and relatively low prioritisation post the FSU collapse. In contrast, the Apache is a newer, but combat tested platform.

So basically, your statement that the IAF today has no helicopters able to operate at night or attack in the jungle was plain wrong. As matter of fact, the Hinds do operate at night.

[Karan M]

+1

I'm really weary of people saying " if we respond with counter force, they will then do x or y or z so we cannot." In any game football, cricket or whatever, no team wins by fielding alone or saving goal kicks. You have to put up points on the board to occupy their defenders. Else, you have 11 guys covering their nether parts while the opposing 11 takes turns at penalties.

Deterrence at a conventional level is disproportionate response to provocation—preferably asymmetric and plausibly deniable.

Between the dehati aurat, the vilayati one and the moonbeam prince we are cooked.

If the stingers and the manpads come, so will collateral damage to defense colonies in Karachi and Islamabad and all of Pakistan could be a no fly zone for their civilian a/c.

IOW, put the burden of rationalization on the PA/ISI. If they are not rational, then our rationality has no impact on what their next step is anyway.

All this talk is fine. Tell me again, what exactly have we done in the past 8 years remotely in the range of the above? Zip, nada, zilch.

Forget about blowing up Karachi, isloo and taking down civilian flights, when the IA is shackled from even handling PA too roughly lest it be accused of "disproportionate response" which is against "peace"

That is the point I was making.

[Victor]

you ... were shooting from the hip.

Guilty as charged. Can't help rooting for Amriki weapons...

the IA is shackled from even handling PA too roughly

..but notice that we are saying the same thing?

Bottom line-- we will be better off when the IA and IAF get what they desperately want asap.