Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Oct 2013 05:04

Even if she is from Pakiland - she is honoured - for me. I have known too many good Muslim dehaati aurat to sneer at them like that. Muslim mothers and "apas" are in most cases a completely different ball-game to the jihadi mard. My namaskaar to the ladies.

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 05 Oct 2013 05:25

Harbans-ji simulation could be device that NaMo could use to clarify. The specific order would depend on other factors as well (unknown).

Code: Select all

1. An Animal shelter                   Low hanging fruit
2. A Hospital / Clinic                  Harder to do; Good to build trust/confidence
3. A Clean Toilet system.            Need this before school ; Common public use facility that includes bath and toilet facilities
4. A Temple                             Toilet before temple before school! Temple needed for identity consolidation.
5. School inside Temple+Toilet+Hospital complex

Don't see why 2,3,4,5 cannot be in the same compound.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Oct 2013 05:44

brihaspati wrote:Even if she is from Pakiland - she is honoured - for me. I have known too many good Muslim dehaati aurat to sneer at them like that. Muslim mothers and "apas" are in most cases a completely different ball-game to the jihadi mard. My namaskaar to the ladies.

+1

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 05 Oct 2013 06:09

NM used that insult for showing the real position of so called peace efforts and the Burkha type paid and sold media conduct. Nothing more. U are all wasting time. What u have to appreciate the situational awareness of this man and the quickness and lethality of his actions. Most of the people seems to ignore that.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Oct 2013 06:25

devguru.. i was not mentioning the m-word.. and when i said indic-wimmen, they are inclusive. i just categorized by the boundaries.. i agree, that generally wimmen folks needed to be respected especially in the m-world.. m-world wimmen are mistreated more than indic-world wimmen.. i think, we can take stistics.. so, it is a matter of world concern how wimmen are treated.

wimmen by far are treated bad by all men kind almost every nation including massa is liable for this.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 05 Oct 2013 06:38

Salesman ends life, names PM in suicide note

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 548098.cms

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 05 Oct 2013 07:33

Oh man, so many posts on one "shouchalaya vs devalaya" statement? If a leader makes 10s of statements a long a line, it is worth a notice. But otherwise , I request all not to give much importance to one line here and there.

This SvD line aside, NaMo has been visibly distancing himself away from RJB. And KJB and KV has been buried deep. In fact VHP, BJP, RSS in past 10 years in Gujarat have NOT distributed even one pamhplet on KJB/KV. Today, ABVP office bearers dont know what is KJB\KV. We at Right to Recall Party are now ONLY activists telling people about RJB, KJB and KV.

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Across India, since 1991, there has been only one model --- the IMF-model, or MNC-owners-model. There is NO NaMo-model, there is no Shivraj-model, there is no Raman-model etc etc. The MNC-owners brribe\threaten uninion ministers what model union govt will follow. The Indian laws have made all state govts beggars, and beggars cant be choosers. So state govt have to follow the model which union govt gives them. NaMo has plus points --- he is zero nepotic, he is more intelligent than other CMs etc. So he has been better at implementing this IMF-model in Gujarat. Plus Gujarat had several plus points when he started in nov-2001. eg law-order in Gujarat had been better than other states due to liquor ban and land-reforms which happened in 1950s. And poverty in Gujarat had been less due to land reforms of 1950s. So plus points of Gujarat and plus points of NaMo multiplied and so Gujarat became much better place than other states in 2013. But there has been no NaMo-model or Gujarat-model. The growth has been led and controlled by MNC-owners (MNC-owners = videshi elitemen). Because they own media, and also own most Ministers, regulators, judges. And one reason why MNC-owners are powerful in India could also be remote control circuits planed by CIA in EVMs (see Hariprasad video)

If growth in India was led by Indian masses or even Indic elitemen, then we should have seen dramatic improvement in maths\science education in schools for poor. But across India, and Gujarat too, maths]science education in schools where bottom 80% go, has been falling and falling since 1991.

If growth was led by Indian masses or even Indic elitemen, then we would be seeing semi-conductor chips made in India. The fact that not even one semi-conductor chip is made in India, proves that someone at top has been successful in ensuring that India doesnt make chips. And that someone is significantly powerful to stop factories from even coming up.

And if growth was led by Indian masses or Indic elitemen, you would NOT see courts in shambles. The courts the MOST important entities to promote local growth in technology, small factories etc. The small factory owner has no contacts with MLAs, MPs, Ministers etc. To protect himself against criminals or fake cases from labor etc, across world, a small factory owner depend on courts and courts only. Please compare courts of India with that of China or USA. You will see there since 1991, no leader in India has tried (or dared) to improve courts. Even NaMo has not been able to fix lower courts of Gujarat. Why not?

And lastly, if growth was led by Indian masses or Indic elitemen, then you would NOT be seeing dalits\tribals running to Missionaries en-mass. Even in Gujarat, where Missionaries have been least effective, Missionaries are becoming more and more popular in dalits and tribals. And one reason why Missionaries grew was because they created credit societies which lends at 2% a month. The tribals\dalits were paying 10% to 15% interest to money lenders and so they remained poor. The Missionaries started credit societies which brought down interest to 2%. And they got money from US, and also from Indian banks. The PSU banks lend upto Rs 300,000 at 1% per month per credit society consisting of 11 to 50 members. The missionaries take that money, and lend to poor at 2% and it is win-win-win for all except that Hinduvaad is losing. Why couldnt RSS-VHP-BajrangD-NaMo etc start such credit societies? Since Jesus came, a principal reason why Christianity grew has been that the priests successfully combated high interest charging money-lenders, which made poors pro-Missionary . The 2000 year old method is still giving results, because competitors namely Hinduvaadies have not subsumed that method at all. In fact, most Hinduvaadies I meet I hopeless unware of damage high-interest rates create on Hinduism, and dont have faintest clue on how it can be reduced.

So NaMo has not been able to fix Gujarat govt schools. He has not been able to reduce delay/corruption/nepotism in courts. He has not been able to crack down on high interest charing mondey lenders. He has been better than all other Indian leaders we see. But he falls short in combating MNC-owners and Missionaries. He could not zero conversions, forget ghar-vapasi of all. If growth was indic, we would have seen large scale ghar-vapasi. If growth was indic, we would have seen massive fervor for RJB, KJB, KV in Gujarat and across India.

Large scale computerization in Govt offices reduced delay where discretionary power of babu was low. This large scale computeration is touted as some highly creative innovation !! But where discretionary power was there, eg judiciary, there has been no improvement across India since 1991. IOW, there has been only compuetrization, no qualitative improvement in combating misuse of discretionary powers in offices/courts.

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Now one reason why NaMo has been rising and rising in popularity is because MNC-owners and Missionaries have decided to promote NaMo !! Why? Why would MNC-owners and Missionaries promote NaMo? Because in international politics, MNC-owners have decided to wipe out China and Islamists. And for that they need a leader who is willing to collide with Islamists head on. So reason why Indian TV-channels and newspapers are giving massive coverage to NaMo is because is it part of MNC-owners' bigger international game against Islamists and China. The TDP is also paid by MNC-owners to now take anti-Islamist stand.

At the same time, MNC-owners dont want to give monopoly in popularity to NaMo. So MNC-owners have paid mediamen to project Arvind Gandhi as a leader. Soon Arvind Gandhi will become capable to collecting 3 crore of middle class votes across India, which means 20 to 3o less seats to NaMo.

So in feb-2014, MNC-owners will ask NaMo to give MP-tickets to those who are not hinduwadi, are pro-Missionary or at least not anti-Missionary, are pro-MNC etc etc. If NaMo agrees then MNC-owners will give less media coverage to Arvind Gandhi, so that he can get barely 50 lakh votes and thus damage only 2-3 seats. And if NaMo doesnt agree with MNC-owners and Missionaries' terms and conditions, and give tickets to Hiduvaadi , anti-MNC-owner etc, then MNC-owners will pay media 10 times to cover Arvind Gandhi positively and NaMo negatively. And this can make about 3 crore voters of Indian middle class consisting of some 25 crore voters to vote for Arvin Gandhi. And this would mean 30 less seats for NDA. That would be a huge huge loss to NaMo, RSS, BJP etc. So NaMo may have to accept MNC-deal.

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Facebook can easily twisted by CIA to help Arvind Gandhi. How? Simple. The newsfeed of Facebook is controlled by CIA. Say you have 1000 friends. Say 50 are political. Say 40 are pro-NaMo and 10 are pro-Arvind. Say 40 pro-NaMo friends put one pro-NaMo post and one anti-Arvind post a day. And say 10 pro-Arvind friends of yours put one pro-Arvind and one anti-NaMo post a day. Now if CIA wants to promote Arvindbhai, then your Facebook newsfeed will show you more pro-Arvind and more anti-NaMo posts, and will show you less anti-Arvind and pro-NaMo posts !!! Now CIA doesnt use this control everyday. They use it only once or twice a year. But facebook has made it easier for CIA to influence about 15% to 20% of Indian middle class voters.

NaMo heavily depends on Facebook. Despite all might, the nationalists have miserably failed to create their own social media and depend on social media created by CIA !! Sometimes, I laugh and cry loudly, when I see Indian nationalists showing social media as victory over TV-channels and newspapers. Little do they know, that social media is good for Indic goals ONLY if it is 100% tranparent and run by Indic.

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The fact that Arvind Gandhi is now capable of collecting 15% votes in Delhi proves how powerful MNC-owners are now in India. Less than 0.01% knew him in mar-2011, and in 3.5 years, not only 100% knows him, some 15% may vote for him. This is the power of MNC-owned media. And this proves that Indic forces have no media to match MNC-owners' media in India.

After Delhi election, MNC-owners will use Arvind Gandhi to further pressurize NaMo. If NaMo agrees with all terms, then Arvind Gandhi may even enter seat sharing agreement with NaMo. And all these are not good signs, IMO.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Oct 2013 07:45

RM, welcome! Would you post some on your political experiments and conclusions as they stand now about situation/organizational experience/ground reality after the experiment has gone on now for some time? Maybe on some other appropriate thread?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 05 Oct 2013 07:53

brihaspati wrote:I am also not that happy with taking the "dehaati aurat" as an insult.

I think it was the oh so l33t padmasree Burkha Dutt dEbi ji (is she a kAshmIrI princess bloodlined one?) who made it look like an insult by protesting too much in that twitter feed of hers. We know about PM MMS, we know about PM N. Sharif but the twitter feed nailed her l33tn355.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Oct 2013 07:55

There is not a single person who was anti-Modi before the "devalay" comment, but turned into pro-Modi after that comment.

there are interesting gymnastics by Modi fanboys/girls to try and paint this as "mature" thinking. specifically relating Hindu temples to toilets: I don't know what kind of logic makes this "mature".

simply put, Modi can articulate his vision for urban sanitation without resorting to cheap secular tricks of bringing in Devalayas.

there is absolutely no need for that. and those people who need to resort to ridiculous stretching of "logic" to somehow paint this as a "mature" move need to learn to draw the line for their own favored leaders, so they don't get taken on a jolly ride.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Oct 2013 07:58

brihaspati ji, bless you a 1000 times. when the 'dehati aurat' issue broke out, that's the first thing that came to my mind.
but I thought perhaps what Namo was saying on that instance was that Indians should differentiate between internal criticism and external jihadi flame-throwing.

but yes, the 'dehati aurat' issue is also troubling. not specifically on Modi per se, but broadly speaking on entire society. not a single commentator pointed out that the entire issue is being framed in such a way as to systematically denigrate rural women.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 05 Oct 2013 08:11

Khejri ford mafia is yesterday interviewed by Arab goswamy. One to one as if ford mafia is a national leader. He never did that to any state level BJP leaders. So paid media now behind ford mafia to stop bjp in Delhi. If Delhi BJP do not find a honest and good leader, then ford mafia will try it's level best to stop it. Time to act and hope they do something fast.

They also need to drop lot of sitting MLAs in Chattisgarh. These fellows are undoing good work of Raman Singh.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 05 Oct 2013 08:13

devesh wrote:There is not a single person who was anti-Modi before the "devalay" comment, but turned into pro-Modi after that comment.

there are interesting gymnastics by Modi fanboys/girls to try and paint this as "mature" thinking. specifically relating Hindu temples to toilets: I don't know what kind of logic makes this "mature".

simply put, Modi can articulate his vision for urban sanitation without resorting to cheap secular tricks of bringing in Devalayas.

there is absolutely no need for that. and those people who need to resort to ridiculous stretching of "logic" to somehow paint this as a "mature" move need to learn to draw the line for their own favored leaders, so they don't get taken on a jolly ride.

Boss. How do you know?
How many people you have talked to?

It helps to get out of the echo chambers sometimes.

I have started becoming active on FB wrt Modi and there is so much of misinformation & fear in the mind of people that it can not be described.

They include stuff like the moral policing in Karnataka, the kafila type articles in Gujarat, and of course 2002.

Those who are ahead of the curve can see through the BS but a vast group is reluctant to embrace him.

If Modi is going to win he has to be able to break the shackles of caste, religion based politics with people willing to vote agains the diktat of caste elders. To do that he has to appeal to what people can relate to.

I personally feel very strongly about the toilet issue; I am sure there are many others who are fence sitters with whom the message resonates.

What you go to understand is this: Modi is not going to win because of modi bhakths who champion his case on SM, or the karyakartas who throng is rallies. For every one of them, there is another one who hates him. But there is a vast pool in the middle.

Many of these pool in the middle, have a bias toward agnositc side of things. While they may go to the temple once in a while, or partake in the festivities, the temple by itself is not a place which provides them a lot of solace. And many have been brainwashed by the decade of propaganda. While they may relate to his message of governance, they may not relate to, or even are uncomfortable with his image of being a "Hindu" nationalist. It is the fence sitter, the swing voter, who may be reluctant to vote for Modi he is targeting. Not the bhakts.

So I do hope the elders step out of their chambers for some time and get a pulse of what the non-bhakts want.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Oct 2013 08:23

Thank you devesh ji! I guess I am not making a very good job of turning out to be an admirer of NM - even though in reality, I do have high expectations and assessment of him. My experiences have just made me more cautious about leaders. However, I do wish him success, and given the situation he does need such wishes in dollops. People are not perhaps aware of or taking into account all that is possibly being readied to stop him.

I just wish that these Freudian slips/tactical comments/ do not take a regular pattern. Bending over too much to please one's enemies is not a desirable quality for someone we hope will prove a statesman rather than merely a PM.

Temples are part of the project - and no impression should be given that we are willing to bargain over it on priority queues.

VikramS ji, - its fashionable and comforting and rewarding to be dubbed a proper "secular nationalist". But I think they are disproportionately represented on the web and the media. There is not yet a tsunami in favour of change and NM - but what is happening is a growing alienation from the existing ruling dispensation. If you look at the skepticism pretended by the internet crowd - then it could be a wrong estimate of strengths of the various players in terms of actual crowd/vote pulling potential.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Oct 2013 08:40

Well toilets are important. All the more so for Social and medical reasons and concerns for hygiene and surroundings. lack of toilets , clean and usable system according to Indian sensibilities, are a must, whether it is in Village or in Towns or cities and Metros. Public toilets are not something which is prioritised. Even many schools, especially girls schools , lack toilets. There was one survey done for school children by Govt and guess what. They asked for toilets.

My Village is spending huge monies on constructing a Big Hanuman temple. Villagers are donating whatever they could and those working outside send money to the Committee. Clearly their priorities are misaligned towards constructing a temples before having a toilet. Even in houses people did not construct toilets. It is only after much education and awareness that people started constructing toilets in their houses in Villages.

While passing through Villages in the evening how many women folk have we noticed stting by Road side and standing up when headlights of vehicles falls on them. Dignity and necessity are something that we need to deliver to them as well.

But for that to happen one needs to make people aware of the need, sensitize them and set their priorities right. Temples ( Churches and masjids as well) they would construct anyway. Role of leader is to lead and sensitize people. That statement of NaMo is nothing wrong. It simply seeks to sensitize people in a catchy way.

As many have pointed out here, Suchita is something which needs to be attained before going to temples. We don't even go inside temples/masjid /gurudwara or churches unless we are clean . We do Jal praschalan before entering temples or doing something auspicious.

If that is highlighted as part of our culture people would be more inclined to solve this issue. If people are reading RJB into this then they are plainly wrong. Two are different thing. He has not , also , questioned whether temples are pavitra or not as compared to toilets. That was stupid comment. In NaMo statement there is no comparison but prioritisation and sensitization.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Oct 2013 08:59

standardization and policy based administration is what we need. take for example khan lands.. the sauchaalaya of the land is based on structural standardizations.. from every building to rest areas and large public facilities - like marts, complexes and shopping centers. so, it is not necessarily a PDS mode distributed public setup facility, but ensuring to convert all buildings, infrastructure to have the sauchalyas as mandatory.. part of the design.

a temple without sauchaalya is a problem in the design.. we are talking millions here.. sorry to say this, i have visited temples where around the wall external to it, people consider that as sauchaalyas.. certain areas or states onlee... but, i am happy that in the land of Gods.. people in general, beyond religious scope of reasoning, are more sauchaalya soaching than the rest..

so hats off to all malloos in that respect. they know how to treat devaalyas with respect and maintain sanctum. if one consider demographics and population density, they are numero uno.. it is important for the nation about moral science and hygiene education.

hygiene facilities are very important.. or ask people to seek places where sauchalyas can be either rented or borrowed if they can't control.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 05 Oct 2013 09:05

we have had enough taak about pakistan...can we get back to regular programming now that everyone has clear bowels ?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Oct 2013 09:06

SaiK wrote:standardization and policy based administration is what we need. take for example khan lands.. the sauchaalaya of the land is based on structural standardizations.. from every building to rest areas and large public facilities - like marts, complexes and shopping centers. so, it is not necessarily a PDS mode distributed public setup facility, but ensuring to convert all buildings, infrastructure to have the sauchalyas as mandatory.. part of the design.

+100.

I fully agree. But for this to happen masses and decision makers need to be sensitized. They have to be made aware of the policy priorities their leaders have in mind.

In India, there are plenty of rules including those for public conveniences in Such buildings. They are mandatory any way.

Enforcement is lacking and you get counter pressure not to insist for sach unnecessary expenses in costly buildings. Things are changing lately and have changed a lot. That pressure needs to be reduced by sensitization.that is what NaMo did.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Oct 2013 09:10

gakakkad, lesson: every input has to have an output. else entropy can't be maintained.

Tumba · Post by **Tumba** » 05 Oct 2013 09:12

deleted by mod

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 05 Oct 2013 09:17

devesh wrote:There is not a single person who was anti-Modi before the "devalay" comment, but turned into pro-Modi after that comment.

there are interesting gymnastics by Modi fanboys/girls to try and paint this as "mature" thinking. specifically relating Hindu temples to toilets: I don't know what kind of logic makes this "mature".

simply put, Modi can articulate his vision for urban sanitation without resorting to cheap secular tricks of bringing in Devalayas.

there is absolutely no need for that. and those people who need to resort to ridiculous stretching of "logic" to somehow paint this as a "mature" move need to learn to draw the line for their own favored leaders, so they don't get taken on a jolly ride.

+108.
I myself am a fanboy but one must not deceive oneself and there must be clear red lines.

Some are arguing that 'Dheva-alaya' is a generic term applicable to all religions. It is wrong. The word 'Dheva' makes it pretty clear. 'Dheva-alaya' means the 'residence of God/s(Dheva/s)'.

Abrahanic religions don't have a residence for God(s)/Goddess(es). Because, they believe that their godling resides in Heaven. What they have is 'prayer houses': a place where they assemble to pray. The one exception seems to be 'Kaaba'. X-ists don't have any such equivalent place on earth. By their own theology, Abrahanic places of worship are merely 'prayer houses' and nothing more. A place where people congregate to pray. That place has no special importance. They could pray anywhere: on roads, in grounds, inside the house, in a special prayer house or whatever. The place has no importance. Thats why, Saudhi Arabia razes a mosque where Mo is said to have prayed in road-widening. Because that is merely a place to pray. That chore could easily be done at some other place. In contrast, Hindhu temples, according to Hindhuism, are the houses of God(s)/Goddess(es). The God(s)/Goddess(es) actually resides in that place. One cannot go and start praying to any idol one wants to in Hindhuism. There are rules and regulations according to which Hindhu temples are built and Vigrahas are established. Then those Vigrahas are enlivened i.e. prana prathishtapana.

So, Hindhu temples are only comparable to 'Kaaba' or Abrahanic 'heaven'. If someone compares the toilets with those two, what do you think will be the reaction?

And yes, he was talking about toilets. Not some high level of 'shauch'. People quoting Dharmic texts to defend it is really silly. He was simply talking about toilets. The context was female sanitation in rural areas.

If he wanted to use generic term, then he could have called it 'prarthna-sthal'.

Here is a simple test: what would people's reaction would be if the same thing was said by Pappu or Antoinio? People would have called it an attack on Hindhuism(and rightly so). I guess the same applies to NaMo also.

NaMo says that he has the courage to say this despite being known as a 'Hindhuthva' leader. He says that such courage is the hallmark of a true leader. Actually, he is wrong. He has gotten away with such a statement precisely because he is seen as a 'Hindhuthva' leader. If the same thing were to be said by Doggy singh, people would have gone ballistic on that scum. So, what NaMo was doing was not courageous. He was pissing on his 'Hindhuthva' supporters to gain some 'secular' brownie points. In contrast, Togadia came out and condemned Modi for his comment. Now that is truly courageous. To go against someone who is as popular as Modi for the sake of one's principle, yep, that is courageous.

What do people do? Do they condemn Modi? Do they condemn the kongi scum who introduced this line? No, they condemn Togadia.

Modi should be careful not to piss on Hindhus.

The simple question that should have been asked to the kongi scum who introduced this line of argument is: Why the hell are you bringing the holy temples into a discussion of sanitation?

How many temples are actually built by the sarkaar after 1947? Who is stopping the sarkaar from building toilets, if it wants to. BTW, how many toilets did sarkaar build from 1947? How are holy temples coming in the way of building toilets?

And how much money do state sarkaars pocket from the temples? How much revenue is generated by the temples? Where is all that money going? Why is the sekoolar sarkar pocketing the revenue of the Hindhu temples? How much employment is given by presence of temples? Entire cities have grown around a single temple.

So, these sekoolar sarkaars and the ungrateful nethas take the temple money, take the employment generated by the temples and then turn around and badmouth the same holy temples?!! Disgusting!!

Meanwhile, RBI has an eye on temple gold?!! Just wow!

This line of argument introduced by the kongi scum is the easiest way to divert and distract from the abject failure of the sarkaar in providing basic amenities to people. Now, coming from the kongis, it is no surprise. Because they thrive on it. But, Modi peddling this line is really a surprise. Because, one of his strengths has been to set the agenda of debate. He sets the terms and conditions. But this time, on this issue, he fell for the kongi trap.

Now, when I listened to that speech, I overlooked it as a faux pas. Just as I had overlooked on of his earlier comments about 'pakis can be won over by trade' comment when he was invited by India Today group or IBN18 group(I don't remember which).

But, then I saw even this comment of Modi being defended as some sort of right thing. That is really pathetic. I mean wrong is a wrong. Regardless of who said it. And the gymnastics that are being resorted to defend this is really amazing. People are quoting Pathanjali, people are saying Dhevalayas is a generic term, people are saying it is not about toilets and so on, so forth.

I guess my first reaction, in my own mind, was also a similar rationalization. I thought, 'Ok, maybe he is saying it because villages already have temples but don't have toilets'.

Sure, there are temples in villages. And most of the times, these temples are in a debilitating condition requiring urgent repairs. Yet, the sarkaar has no time for it. Even though they pocket crores and crores from the temple coffers.

But all that apart, the straight-forward question is: why is anyone bringing holy temples into a discussion of sanitation?

Coming to the topic of sanitation itself? Why should the sarkaar have to build the toilets? Can't people build it for themselves?
There can be only two reasons, I think, for people are not building toilets for themselves:
a) they don't see a need for it.
b) they don't have the resources to build it.

a) they don't see a need for it:
If thats the case, then the sarkaar should launch an awareness program. If people don't see a need for a toilet, then they will not use it even if the sarkaar builds it.

b) they don't have the resources to build it:
what are the resources needed to build a toilet?
1) water supply
2) drainage network
3) waste management.
4) place.

Now, in most villages, the water supply, drainage network and waste management are absent. So, what the sarkaar needs to do is provide those things to the villages. First and foremost, the sarkaar should provide water supply to villages. When people don't even have safe drinking water, then whats the use of a toilet?

Instead of talking of these things, the kongis come up with a license raj kind of program to build toilets?! Building public toilets in a metros and cities, perhaps makes sense. But, there is no sense in building public toilets in villages. In villages, private toilets will do the job.

It is more sustainable to give facilities to people and make them aware so that they can take care of their own sanitation needs. Instead, this government toilet handout scheme is harebrained. One would expect Modi to take such a line of thinking. Instead, he follows in the footsteps of the kongis. He even peddles the ridiculous comparison that the kongis come up with.

brihaspati wrote:I am also not that happy with taking the "dehaati aurat" as an insult. The dehaati aurat is one hell of a tough cookie - a staunch and loyal mother, wife and daughter. Just because she is often illiterate, or dirty from lack of facilities - does not mean that she is any less or base. I would have proudly accepted this as a compliment for my mother. Taking it as an insult is pandering to the Islamist and the Paki - whether it was real or imaginary from the jihadi Nawaz.

Bji,
I think he was trying to highlight the intention of the baki to insult the Murkh. But, I was surprised that the indian media did not take refuge under this line. I thought that indian media and burqa herself would say that calling someone as 'Dehaathi aurath' is no insult. But, they didn't. It kind of shows what their thinking is. Because they seem to believe that 'Dehaathi aurath' is an insult.

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Rahul Mehta ji,
namasthe.

I read couple of your old posts. The impression I get is that your analysis of current affairs is generally on the mark. For example, one of your old posts, you had talked about building up Nitush Kumar as a challenger of Modi. That was the time when he won the election. And it happened. So, I think your take on the current affairs is on the mark. Either you have great inside info or you are able to understand things better than others.

But, your proposed solutions(like Right to recall) seem to be .... I don't know.... flawed. I mean like the idea of Lokpal, your proposed solutions are also similar. Most of the times, it seems to me that they are not much of a solutions. Of course, I confess that I am not completely acquainted with your proposals. Only had a passing glance at them.

----
I think Sushi aunty needs to be thrown out of the lotus party, if Modi does not want the internal sabotage to continue...

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 05 Oct 2013 09:22

brihaspati wrote: I just wish that these Freudian slips/tactical comments/ do not take a regular pattern. Bending over too much to please one's enemies is not a desirable quality for someone we hope will prove a statesman rather than merely a PM.

+1. This is what I mean. If one tries to make peace with one's enemies at the expense of one's allies, one should not be surprised that both have been antagonised. And Modi's attempt, at the very beginning of his Delhi quest, to make such remarks do not make me very hopeful about him. I guess the best summary of my feelings can be described in the poet Bihari Lal's immortal words, written to the Raja Jai Singh of Jaipur.

नहिं पराग नहिं मधुर मधु नहिं विकास यहि काल
अली कली ही सौ बंध्यो आगे कौन हवाल ।।

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Oct 2013 09:46

NaMo needs to watch his tongue. it has been a long time since the Hindu mind has had the ambition to dream big. he needs to understand that at the end of the day, he alone is nothing. if he thinks bringing in devalayas into a discussion of sanitation is a sign of "courage", then I really have to wonder who is advising him and who is giving him these ideas?!

do not pour sewer scum on the dreams of crores of people just to appease a few secularists. even if he doesn't become PM in 2014, he can still be remembered as the man who kick started something big. in fact, I think he can do more damage to "Delhi" by staying out of power and constantly forcing the reigning Dilli-pati to fight indecisive pitched battles across the length and breadth of the country on battlegrounds and terms of his choosing, rather than become a secular-appeasing Vajpayee-B. but if he insists on anymore of this nonsense, and if these "mature comments" become a regular pattern, then the Hindus will have to abandon even this route of producing a capable leader. b/c apparently, no matter how much integrity one guy has, when it comes to becoming Dilli-Pati, everything becomes bartered.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Oct 2013 09:59

johneeG wrote:
And yes, he was talking about toilets. Not some high level of 'shauch'. People quoting Dharmic texts to defend it is really silly. He was simply talking about toilets. The context was female sanitation in rural areas.

If he wanted to use generic term, then he could have called it 'prarthna-sthal'.

Here is a simple test: what would people's reaction would be if the same thing was said by Pappu or Antoinio? People would have called it an attack on Hindhuism(and rightly so). I guess the same applies to NaMo also.

NaMo says that he has the courage to say this despite being known as a 'Hindhuthva' leader. He says that such courage is the hallmark of a true leader. Actually, he is wrong. He has gotten away with such a statement precisely because he is seen as a 'Hindhuthva' leader. If the same thing were to be said by Doggy singh, people would have gone ballistic on that scum. So, what NaMo was doing was not courageous. He was pissing on his 'Hindhuthva' supporters to gain some 'secular' brownie points. In contrast, Togadia came out and condemned Modi for his comment. Now that is truly courageous. To go against someone who is as popular as Modi for the sake of one's principle, yep, that is courageous.

What do people do? Do they condemn Modi? Do they condemn the kongi scum who introduced this line? No, they condemn Togadia.

Modi should be careful not to piss on Hindhus.

The simple question that should have been asked to the kongi scum who introduced this line of argument is: Why the hell are you bringing the holy temples into a discussion of sanitation?

How many temples are actually built by the sarkaar after 1947? Who is stopping the sarkaar from building toilets, if it wants to. BTW, how many toilets did sarkaar build from 1947? How are holy temples coming in the way of building toilets?

And how much money do state sarkaars pocket from the temples? How much revenue is generated by the temples? Where is all that money going? Why is the sekoolar sarkar pocketing the revenue of the Hindhu temples? How much employment is given by presence of temples? Entire cities have grown around a single temple.

So, these sekoolar sarkaars and the ungrateful nethas take the temple money, take the employment generated by the temples and then turn around and badmouth the same holy temples?!! Disgusting!!

I'm highlighting above section of johneeG ji's post. and specifically the red, bolded portion.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 05 Oct 2013 10:02

When Vivekananda said growing and eating brinjal was more useful than growing and worshiping Tulasi in a hungry nation, some "orthodox elders" of Hinduism criticized him harshly. Did it make any difference to his popularity, or to the wave he symbolized?

No. Same case with Modi's shauchalaya comment.

Elders have their place, too, and they have to say it for special reasons. No disrespect meant to them, either.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Oct 2013 10:05

What elders?! the elder do not care about Modi. they never were with Modi and they never will be. from my own personal case, the "elders" are pretty much in INC grip.

it's not this ephemeral group of "elders" that Namo is pissing on. he is pissing on the enthusiastic defender of Namo. the zealous workers of RSS and BJP who go to great lengths to sacrifice their personal time to campaign for him and his cause. these people are not "elders".

---you are looking at one goal-post, shooting at another, and commenting on the beautiful architecture of yet another---

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 05 Oct 2013 10:11

Agnimitra wrote:When Vivekananda said growing and eating brinjal was more useful than growing and worshiping Tulasi in a hungry nation, some "orthodox elders" of Hinduism criticized him harshly. Did it make any difference to his popularity, or to the wave he symbolized?

Vivekananda was not running for an election. He was quite unperturbed about any negative publicity he got, because in Hinduism, we never go beyond criticisms.

Modi, on the other hand, needs to be concerned because his supporters are the Hindus. Offending his supporters' sensibilities for the sake of a `brilliant tactical strike' to get secular votes is going to be a problem. If he follows this path, quite likely, he will end up with neither.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 05 Oct 2013 10:14

devesh wrote:there is absolutely no need for that. and those people who need to resort to ridiculous stretching of "logic" to somehow paint this as a "mature" move need to learn to draw the line for their own favored leaders, so they don't get taken on a jolly ride.

Still modi ji's ride or even ride on "Jinnah is secular" Advanji's rath is better than pulling MMS/Sonia/Pappu Ji's cart. Just like few years of NDA rule with darbaaris like Sudheendra Kulkarni were better than present government.

I think people are forgetting that he is same person who offered money for rebuilding Kedarnath temple also ordered following:-

www.dnaindia.com/ahmedabad/1851803/repo ... ath-temple

Narendra Modi offers makeover for Kedarnath temple
dnaindia.com | Jun 23rd 2013 3:34 AM

Politicking made its equanimity felt even amid the Uttarakhand floods on Saturday. Narendra Modi ignored suggestions by Union home minister Sushilkumar Shinde that chief ministers (CMs) should not visit the flood-hit region as it hampers rescue operations. Not only did he not pay heed to this to carry out an aerial survey of the region, Modi also met the state’s CM, offering to rebuild the Kedarnath temple complex, destroyed in the deluge.

However, Modi was not the only chief minister to throw caution to Shinde’s wind. Haryana CM Bhupinder Singh Hooda and Rajasthan’s Ashok Gehlot were also in the region during the day.

Modi tweeted about the rebuild proposition after his meeting with Uttarakhand CM Vijay Bahuguna. “Met Vijay Bahuguna ji. Conveyed to him that Gujarat is ready to take responsibility of renovating the Kedarnath temple complex,” he wrote on the micro-blogging site.

Before meeting Bahuguna, Modi spent the day visiting relief camps and carrying out an aerial survey of the places affected by the floods. He described the destruction at Uttarakhand as a national catastrophe.

VHP-Modi face-off on demolition of temples
indianexpress.com

Vishwa Hindu Parishad, marginalised in the state by the Modi Government, is trying to pull its act together to confront the Chief Minister who is working zealously to demolish unauthorised temples coming in the way of development.

The state Government in the past week has brought down over 90 religious structures, mostly temples, annoying saffron groups — VHP, Bajrang Dal and others — and a section of politically inclined sadhus.

The government action has displeased the saffron workers to such an extent that VHP's national leader Ashok Singhal, who was here to do spot assessment of the situation, had to calm their frayed nerves.

State VHP leaders who had worked hard to see Modi coming to power in 2002, now call him an opportunist. "Not temples, he is demolishing Hindutva," said VHP state secretary Ranchod Bharwad.

"When there was Hindutva wave in the state, he rode it to grab power. Now when all Indian states are vying to destroy Hindutva, Modi wants to take the lead," he said.

The demolition of temples is a double whammy for VHP, which is yet to come to terms with the arrest of the party's general secretary Ashwin Patel and slapping of sedition charges on him for circulating anti-Modi SMSs after the July 26 blasts in Ahmedabad. The VHP had made a din and its leaders had courted arrests then. But Modi had paid no heed.

Behind the unprecedented temple demolition drive is a survey done by the Gadhinagar Collector that had revealed encroachment of pubic space and roads in the state capital by over 310 religious structures.

The demolition drive began quietly around Diwali, and was noticed only after six temples were razed. Soon, it took a political turn.

A Mandir Bachao Samiti has been formed consisting saffron groups, political parties like Maha Gujarat Janta Party- formed by BJP rebels- and others.

... contd.
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The VHP has been trying to convey its protest message loud and clear by conducting rallies and meetings. In Surat also, where a similar temple razing drive is on, violent demonstrations were held.

But Modi does not appear to be perturbed. On Thursday, state Revenue Minister Anandi Patel called a conference of District Collectors to discuss revenue records and encroachments. What might have encouraged the minister further is the fact that

Gandhinagar bandh call given by the Mandir Bachao Samiti on Wednesday evoked little response.

The VHP rubbishes Modi's development agenda. "Development cannot be achieved by demolishing only temples. Not one out of several mazaars situated around official residences of VIPs has been touched," said Bharwad.

The Maha Gujarat Janta Party, headed by former State Home Minister Gordhan Zadafia, too has criticised Modi. "He (Modi) wants to project himself as a secular leader ahead of the Lok Sabha elections," said Zadafia.

The BJP, on its part, has remained remarkably silent over the issue. It, however, indicated that it desires to patch up with the VHP. "If a structure is illegal, it should be removed. But we also need to talk to the VHP to address the growing rift between us," said BJP state president Purshottam Rupala.
Please read our terms of use before posting comments
TERMS OF USE: The views, opinions and comments posted are your, and are not endorsed by this website. You shall be solely responsible for the comment posted here. The website reserves the right to delete, reject, or otherwise remove any views, opinions and comments posted or part thereof. You shall ensure that the comment is not inflammatory, abusive, derogatory, defamatory &/or obscene, or contain ***** matter and/or does not constitute hate mail, or violate privacy of any person (s) or breach confidentiality or otherwise is illegal, immoral or contrary to public policy. Nor should it contain anything infringing copyright &/or intellectual property rights of any person(s).

---
Why did he order demolition of temples in 2008 ? Is it possible, that was because he is politician and he needed to project to world that RSS/VHP is working against him ? Again, in last Gujarat assembly polls media was again running stories of Modi vs RSS, Sanjay Joshi vs Modi etc etc.

And still RSS forced BJP's Dilli Billis to accept Modi as PM candidate. Keeping all that in mind, I think it is possible that he made that statement in order to puncture Cong poll strategy:-

Jairam Ramesh is right: 2014 polls was always to be a Congress vs RSS contest
by Akshaya Mishra, firstpost.com
October 1st 2013

Jairam Ramesh is right. General elections 2014 will be a battle between the RSS and the Congress, not between the Congress and the BJP. With the entire script and the cast for the elections for the latter being decided in Nagpur, it’s better that the BJP dropped the pretension of being an independent entity.

Howsoever hard the supporters of the BJP might try to convince the world of their outfit’s political autonomy, the fact is it is only a proxy for the mother organisation. The BJP cannot stay in denial over its existential reality for ever.

The problem with the arrangement is it confuses the lay outsider more than it offers clarity on what the BJP means: an organisation that promotes the agenda of its handlers or a party that could be trusted to make decisions on its own. In short, the mask versus the face debate continues, raising fundamental trust issues for the outsider – does he believe the growth-governance rhetoric of the mask or does he accept this is only the facade for a narrow, exclusive ideology of the face?

That the party is a political front of the RSS by itself would not be so unpalatable, but for the shrill accusation from the leaders of the party and its vocal supporters about the lack of the democratic, liberal culture in rival parties, mainly the Congress. Coming from a party that is made to swallow decisions made elsewhere, this is hypocrisy of the highest order. The BJP cannot be elastic about interpretation of everything.

There’s merit in the party’s charge that the Congress is steeped in the loyalty-patronage-sycophancy culture and it has killed leadership in the states to muzzle challenge to the authority of the Gandhis at the top. The BJP’s allegations that the Congress has killed intra-party democracy, effectively blocking the emergence of new leaders from beyond the privileged circle is also largely true. But what about the BJP itself? Is it as democratic in its structure and character as it claims to be?

The Narendra Modi example won’t do. His rise from tea vendor to the prime ministerial prospect is an exceptional story indeed. But is he a product of the BJP’s much-trumpeted democratic ethos? By a long stretch, no. He would not be where he is today without the emphatic intervention of the RSS.

It is public knowledge that the mother organisation, led by Mohan Bhagwat, streamrolled all resistance to foist its choice on the party. The so-called surge of support for Modi from below would not be possible without the entire Sangh Parivar throwing his weight behind him. The BJP’s claim of ‘collective leadership’ was nowhere in sight when the RSS was pushing the case of the Gujarat chief minister.

The ‘surge from below’ was missing when Atal Behari Vajpayee was at odds with the RSS while trying to position BJP as a party in tune with the pan-Indian socio-political reality. The ‘mask’ tried to be the face and had to pay the pay the price.

The wider parivar abandoned him and the party lost in 2004. The story repeated in 2009 after LK Advani tried to assert limited freedom from the core ideology of the mother organisation. Now, the latter has decided to be in full control. The mask and the face become one in Modi – the BJP won’t admit it in the open though.

The Congress-RSS tussle goes back a long way. It represents a clash of worldviews – the Gandhi-Nehru version of a liberal, inclusive India vs the RSS’ version of a majoritarian India drawing its binding theme from the country’s cultural-religious past.

The spread of the RSS ideology would have been much faster in the 50s and 60s but for the presence of Jawaharlal Nehru and his band of visionaries, including Sardar Patel. That explains why the Sangh Parivar loves to hate the Gandhi family. For them, it in some way provides the convergence point for all those who don’t subscribe to its ideology.

It is no secret that the RSS was the mind and the muscle behind the JP movement of 1974. It was its organisational strength that made the anti-corruption movement of Anna Hazare so powerful – the leaders of the movement won’t accept it though.

Notwithstanding the issues involved – the RSS is known to take up issues of national concern, the primary target in both was to bring the Congress government down. If anyone bothered to notice, the Anna Hazare movement collapsed as soon as it became clear that the Congress-led government would not collapse. The point here is it has always been a battle between the RSS and the Congress. The BJP’s role has been to serve as the more acceptable public face of the Parivar.

Jairam is only hinting at that ambiguity.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Oct 2013 10:19

devesh wrote:it's not this ephemeral group of "elders" that Namo is pissing on. he is pissing on the enthusiastic defender of Namo. the zealous workers of RSS and BJP who go to great lengths to sacrifice their personal time to campaign for him and his cause. these people are not "elders".

Yawn...any data to backup your claim that the 'enthusiastic supporters' of Namo feel 'pissed on' by his statement ? And why do you assume that the Praveen Togadia VHP/RJB type has been the most enthusiastic supporter of Namo - that was never the case, and even on this forum one can clearly see that dynamic.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 05 Oct 2013 10:22

In 2006 or so, Modi admin in Gujarat demolished temples that had encroached on public land. VHP/Bajrang Dal types reacted strongly against that (which is understandable given their positioning). But did it cause him to lose the election or his allies? No.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 05 Oct 2013 10:25

Agnimitra wrote:In 2006 or so, Modi admin in Gujarat demolished temples that had encroached on public land. VHP/Bajrang Dal types reacted strongly against that (which is understandable given their positioning). But did it cause him to lose the election or his allies? No.

Upholding the law is one thing. Needlessly bringing temples into a debate about toilets WHEN THE TWO ARE NOT RELATED is another. Anyway, I am not going to argue this further. I would rather wait to hear Modi's explanation rather than that of BRF members who do not share his confidences, as far as I know.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 05 Oct 2013 10:30

For all those valiant champions of Dharma who have been mortally offended by Modi's obsequious pandering to the sickular elites of New Delhi, I have an amazing offer.

Luxury 3 BHK in Malabar Hill, Mumbai, overlooking the sea. It has a stupendous devalaya, floor-to-ceiling marble mandir room with havan enclave, piped gangajal reservoir, full set of puja-paath appointments.

One thing, there is no shauchalaya in the flat, but as I said, the sea is nearby onlee.

Who can resist? Certainly not the "crores of Hindus" whose aspirations Modi has apparently crushed forever, according to some sublimely well-informed posts on this thread- in fact, that's why I'm making the announcement here exclusively!

Now to sit back and wait for the bidding war to get going.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Oct 2013 10:31

fanboyism has reached new levels on BRF. some people have been warning against such a thing on BRF for a while. I personally have stayed away from warning anybody about NaMo fanboyism for the longest time, simply b/c I never saw the fans becoming blindly enamored.

but now, people are entering lala-land trying to defend the indefensible. why should NaMo even bring in Devalayas in a discussion on Toilets?!?!

he can explain his vision for urban sanitation by citing evidence from his own administration's activities in Gujarat, and laying out his plan for nation-wide strategy. why the f*** do you need to bring in devalayas into this debate/discussion/topic at all?! it makes no sense at all. the only explanation is that NaMo is being fed coolaid of "attracting secular votes".

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 05 Oct 2013 10:31

Temples and toilets are certainly related. Everything is related in the Dharmic conception. And members here have clearly provided quotes from esteemed shastric sources.

Secondly, it is commonly seen in India that the janata will keep urinating and defecating in public even when there is a shauchalaya one block down the street. Shaucha is not part of the Indian consciousness. It is important to make it a part of consciousness. The only way to inject it into consciousness is to juxtapose it with the heart of that consciousness - even if it causes some temporary takleef. It helps start a debate or discussion. Hence the rhetorical device of juxtaposing temple and toilet.

Thus, there are, both, philosophical as well as rhetorical positives here.

I don't mind seeing all the takleef at all. I'm glad to see the reaction. Its just important that those who see the value of this catchphrase USE the opportunity to inject sanity into the hullabaloo.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Oct 2013 10:35

Rudradev wrote:For all those valiant champions of Dharma who have been mortally offended by Modi's obsequious pandering to the sickular elites of New Delhi, I have an amazing offer.

Luxury 3 BHK in Malabar Hill, Mumbai, overlooking the sea. It has a stupendous devalaya, floor-to-ceiling marble mandir room with havan enclave, piped gangajal reservoir, full set of puja-paath appointments.

One thing, there is no shauchalaya in the flat, but as I said, the sea is nearby onlee.

Who can resist? Certainly not the "crores of Hindus" whose aspirations Modi has apparently crushed forever, according to some sublimely well-informed posts on this thread- in fact, that's why I'm making the announcement here exclusively!

Now to sit back and wait for the bidding war to get going.

I'll pay you market price to buy that apartment. then, I will get rid of the temple. build a toilet. and resell it for 30% margin on what I bought it for.

so, are we happy now? no devalaya. a shiny apartment with a jacuzzi in the shauchalaya.

this is how the "discussion" degenerates once you start negotiating on devalayas. once you make them into negotiable/saleable entities (like Rudradev ji has done above), there is no need for it. as soon as there is a new proposition that gives more "financial" value, you can get rid of the devalaya.

so, I guess that's the end goal then: turn devalayas into saleable/for-profit entities to be negotiated on the basis of purely perception-based financial/profit value.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Oct 2013 10:38

why didn't pappu say: hygiene is a state-of-mind?

btw, again let me repeat namo said pehale sauchalya, phir devalya.. there is only a priority aspect here, it is just a sequence of events to happen. PERIOD

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Oct 2013 10:45

Blow to Modi: Man found who goes to temple before toilet

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 05 Oct 2013 10:46

Agnimitra wrote:Temples and toilets are certainly related.

Sigh - this debate is going beyond the limits of any sanity.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 05 Oct 2013 10:52

nageshks wrote:Sigh - this debate is going beyond the limits of any sanity.

No, the reaction started well outside the limits of sanity, and so one needs to step out in order to drag it back!

The reaction is that there is something blasphemous, unholy, inappropriate or at least politically imprudent in the catchphrase "pehle shauchalaya phir devalaya" coming from a man with Modi's ideological record. I am unable to understand such an insane reaction.

This was not a one-time gaffe or a freudian slip. It is a catchphrase that he was using even months ago.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 05 Oct 2013 11:09

Are all the foks angered by the SvD drama going to vote for congress? If no, this is a waste of time. Modi has a much larger constituency to appeal to and go way beyond the 2004 game plan. He just needs to convince people he will bring order and development. The rest will follow.