Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 21 Oct 2013 20:06

Just came across a few things related to YSR family and the Augusta Scam:

YSR family comes under helicopter cloud

The tremors of the VVIP helicopter scam were felt in Andhra Pradesh after the spotlight fell on the family of the late former chief minister Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy and his evangelist son-in-law Anil Kumar.
Carlo Gerosa, the business partner of controversial arms agent Guido Haschke and allegedly a middleman in the multi-crore scam that helped AgustaWestland clinch the deal to sell 12 helicopters to the Indian Air Force, was associated with Arbor Charitable Foundation India - a Christian missionary and service organisation based at Karunagiri of Naidupet block in Khammam district.

Sources said Arbor began its fully-fledged activities after the organisers got in touch with then chief minister YSR Reddy in 2007.

As the Arbor Charitable Foundation India got registered with the ministry of corporate affairs in December 2007, the YSR government allotted about 2,000 acres of land to the foundation at a nominal cost to run its activities, which include community-based programmes, micro-finance, water management and sanitation, housing and child welfare programmes.

In March 2008, Gerosa was appointed as director of the foundation in Khammam. And within two months, the YSR government placed an order with AgustaWestland, Italy, for purchase of the Agusta-139 model helicopter at a cost of Rs 63 crore, though a Bell-430 chopper bought in June 1999 was already there for the CM.

Sources said it was because of Gerosa's links with AgustaWestland that YSR had bought the latest helicopter and in return, his government had allotted land to the foundation in Khammam.

"After YSR's death in September 2009 in a helicopter crash, ironically involving Bell-430, Gerosa went back to Italy," sources said.
There are allegations that YSR's son-in-law "Brother" Anil Kumar has links with the foundation and it was only under the influence of Anil Kumar that YSR had promoted the foundation.

"We have evidence to prove the nexus between Anil Kumar and Arbor Charitable Foundation and their links to the chopper scam. We will disclose them to the CBI and also raise it in Parliament during the budget session," Telugu Desam Party MPs Nama Nageshwara Rao and C.M. Ramesh said.

Efforts to contact the Arbor head office proved futile. Anil Kumar too could not be contacted for his clarification, but his close associate, Kiriti, sought to deny the allegations.

"As far as I know, Anil has nothing to do with Arbor. The pastors' meeting held at Khammam during 2009 elections was organised by us and not Arbor Foundation. May be there were pastors belonging to the foundation at the meeting," he said.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/in ... z2iMw91iUd
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Bro Anil was involved in Agusta helicopter scam-TDP

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Oct 2013 21:06

And people who were monitoring the local media and pointed all these things out - EJ influence etc were frequently attacked by the handful of self declared "secularists" on this forum. Dubbed as communal, RSS influenced etc. Shameful.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Oct 2013 07:32

A notorious Indian arms dealer Sudhir Choudhrie may become a British "Lord" as he has donated allegedly lots of moolah to the Liberal Democratic Party,sponsored by none other than the Dy.PM Nick Clegg! Lord-hopefully Chou,has been linked with the Barak missile scandal,AW VVIP helo scam,reportedly Finmeccanica's middleman for doing the business. The CBI in aother case closed it saying that there was "no evidence",even though he is on a list of 23 "undesirable men",with whom govt. depts. are expected not to have any contacts with.Chou ha donated more than 640,000 pounds to the Lib-Dems since 2004.He has extensive contacts in several nations including Israel,where he is suspected to "partially control defence firms at least in Israel"(?)!

Lord-hopefully Chou's rise was due to an uncle who was a senior exec. with HAL,well,well,well! Through extensive use of tax havens,powerful politico-babu and military contacts,he is suspected of having swung major defence contracts in India.

TOI report.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 22 Oct 2013 09:59

Regarding HTT-34, its more powerful engine would not solve the glide ratio problem nor fix the fuel system design problem. It might give faster speed and climb, explaining the "improved performance" claim but it would not correct the basic design problems that were causing accidents.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 22 Oct 2013 14:18

Karan M wrote:And people who were monitoring the local media and pointed all these things out - EJ influence etc were frequently attacked by the handful of self declared "secularists" on this forum. Dubbed as communal, RSS influenced etc. Shameful.

Which kind of an NGO needs 2000 acres?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Oct 2013 15:18

2000 acres is the size of iit kanpur campus and bigger than all iits except kharagpur. iit delhi is 250 acres.

this could be just tip of iceberg in how much govt land was 'facilitated' to such NGOs.

vina · Post by **vina** » 22 Oct 2013 16:35

victor wrote:its more powerful engine would not solve the glide ratio problem

Ah.. But the Pilatus PC-7 which the IAF got as it's replacement has a "compromised" glide ratio as well ! So, black cat , white cat, as long as it doesn't glide ?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Oct 2013 17:07

vina wrote:
victor wrote:its more powerful engine would not solve the glide ratio problem
Ah.. But the Pilatus PC-7 which the IAF got as it's replacement has a "compromised" glide ratio as well ! So, black cat , white cat, as long as it doesn't glide ?

That 'Compromised' Glide Ratio is a canard spread by Ajay Shukla - whose entire article and accusations against IAF on BTT issue was proven to be farce.

The 'minimum' criteria for glide ratio was relaxed to attract wider participation - PC-7MkII glide ratio is actually same as the standard which was relaxed to allow others to participate.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Oct 2013 19:37

Pics speak for themselves. Its from Jihadi source. Osama Bin laden of Indian defence reporting has this to say

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Oct 2013 20:46

He's not the Bin Laden of Indian defence reporting, but more like the Johnny Lever of defence reporting.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 22 Oct 2013 21:54

Karan M wrote:He's not the Bin Laden of Indian defence reporting, but more like the Johnny Lever of defence reporting.

In complete Rajkumar Estile "KHAMOOSH don't insult Johnny Lever"..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Oct 2013 22:51

Well yes Johnny Lever knows he is a comedian. Sengupta also probably knows he is one (just doesnt want to admit it in public).

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 22 Oct 2013 23:31

To his credit, one thing Prasun was apparently able to see was the irrelevance of the IJT with the advent of the PC-7 and Hawk. With the inherrent asymmetry business coming out only now, Sitara may indeed be finished which would be tragic.

If it happens, I wonder if we can demand ownership of the AL55I engine lock, stock and barrel since we paid for it or is that a dead loss too. We could build an aircraft around it instead of the other way around. 2 of them could power a nice ground attack aircraft on the lines of Frogfoot.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 22 Oct 2013 23:34

AL551 can power so many things, many of our UAVs

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Oct 2013 06:49

I know this is becoming one of those IAF vs HAL debates but guys at least on this occasion it is difficult to find the IAF at fault . When I was a kid I mean this is like when I was in primary school and we were stationed in Cochin ,father was posted in NATS(now NIAT) we had a big poster in our drawing room. It had a Sea Harrier, Tu-142 , Alize and HPT-32 in each of the 4 quadrants. I remember asking my father about the ACs and for HPT-32 he said 'beta ye trainer hai lekin zyada udta nahin" (It's a trainer but does not fly much). It's sad that it's been more than 20 years since and we are still stuck there it's just that we have a turbo prop instead of a piston engine AC.

I for one have realized that there is no point in taking sides in these debates for it is silly , both are virtually GOI arms the chronic issues like "This is not my mandate", "I will only do what is in the list of my duties", "I will not jump the chain of command", "I will not initiate things from my side as that is not expected of me, besides it will in any case be turned down " etc etc plague these entities so I think I do realize why in last 20 years although a lot of files might have moved and proposals sent/exchanged but a prop driven trainer never took to the sky.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Oct 2013 09:26

I have been debating for ages and have rarely seen any debate where HAL has not been rightfully bashed. There was forces vs DRDO debates. IMO there is no denial that HAL is a pathetic organisation. IAF is good at its core activity, while HAL is lacking. Both organisations lack in r&D orientation.

IMHO, this is the first ever debate where we are actually uncovering good things by HAL. DRDO actually had the mandate to experiment and they have done a lot of useful things. HAL has actually created mock-ups and concepts. End of the day, it was customer which was found lacking.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Oct 2013 18:21

if HAL keeps skipping milestones, then HAL is at fault. However HAL can better do their program management, and plan ahead, seek the right time.. that is called maturity. only if metrics are collected, and processes are in place, an organization can commit to a time line.

If HAL continues to be this pathetic, then it is time to move on their experties, and transfer that to private sector. I wish, we break HAL , and sell it to private.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 23 Oct 2013 18:35

SaiK wrote: If HAL continues to be this pathetic, then it is time to move on their experties, and transfer that to private sector. I wish, we break HAL , and sell it to private.

Old saying...be careful for what you wish for, because you just might get it.

While that is inevitable in a 10-15 year timetable, unless the IAF also gets its own house in order on acquisitions, private sector players will also keep giving it the run around...especially if one of the likely leading players is rumored to get ministers changed as per its diktats.

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Oct 2013 21:53

I gather ~~this is MIL fora nukkad thread of sorts~~; anyways I went through the LCA video linked by Indranil in new LCA thread and felt that opening soundtrack for that video is from Green Day's Boulevard of Broken dreams (?) .

indranilroy wrote: 1. This thread is for discussion of trainers, light and medium transport, VVIP transport, intelligence gathering aircraft. Also other miscellaneous things related to Indian military aviation may go in here.
2. You are probably right. We need a nukkad thread for mil. fora.
3. Yes, that song is Boulevard of Broken dreams.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Oct 2013 01:47

Typical of outsourcing PR to some local L1 agency.. who pick up any cool sounding song...dont even look into what that song is..same as BEL tank posters show T80UDs.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Oct 2013 10:20

What is the current status of the IAF and IN fighter fleet now days

1) 120 odd MIG-21 Bisons

2) 170 odd SU-30MKI, with anther 100 to join the fleet in 4years

3) 65 Mig 29's with around 10 upgraded to Mig 29 UPG std.

4) 50 M-2000's with 0 upgraded as per the 2011 upgrade contract

3) 110 off Jaguar IS, which need to be graded to Honeywell engines

4) 12 Jaguar IM with Sea eagle replaced by Harpoon block 2

6) 100 MIg-27's with 50 upgraded

7) 40 other miscellaneous MIg-21 m, UM, FL types

IN strength should be

1) 20 odd Mig 29K's with 25 on order

2) 10-12 Sea harrier's which can carry still working sea eagle along with Derby's and Python 4.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Oct 2013 10:29

I think only 40 Mig27 were upg and then it halted. the total number may be less than 100.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Oct 2013 10:36

The should have upgraded 100 odd Mig-27 with Al-31 engine and DARE OA Framework avionic suite should have served well for a decade or so , but perhaps the Jags open production line would veered away the decision to make more Jags.

Where do we stand on Jag engine upgrade ?

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 24 Oct 2013 10:49

Austin wrote:Where do we stand on Jag engine upgrade ?

Ask them, and maybe you shall receive...

http://www.honeywellforjaguar.com/contact.php

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Oct 2013 11:03

Aditya_V wrote: 6) 100 MIg-27's with 50 upgraded

There was an article a while ago saying that only 80 odd Mig-27s were left operational. Can't find it now.

7) 40 other miscellaneous MIg-21 m, UM, FL types

40 is too low. There must be more M and Bis versions flying. 40 is only about 2 squadrons. The FLs have been retired IIRC.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 24 Oct 2013 11:18

Aditya_V wrote:4) 50 M-2000's with 0 upgraded as per the 2011 upgrade contract

the first upgraded M2K has flown. delivery is unclear.

The Indian Air Force's first upgraded Mirage 2000H fighter made its debut flight at the Istres-Le Tubé air base in France yesterday. The upgraded Mirage 2000 (effectively now the 'Dash-Five' standard), sporting a brand new avionics suite, self-protection suite, the Thales RDY-2 multimode radar and other systems, is the first of 49 aircraft (2 crashed last year in India in quick succession, forcing a fleet grounding of more than 50 days) that will be upgraded over the next seven years.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/10/ ... flies.html

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Oct 2013 11:33

Austin wrote:The should have upgraded 100 odd Mig-27 with Al-31 engine and DARE OA Framework avionic suite should have served well for a decade or so , but perhaps the Jags open production line would veered away the decision to make more Jags.

Where do we stand on Jag engine upgrade ?

On hold for, having turned into a single vendor situation. With plans to convert it to FMS. With a senate notification to the effect, from the US govt.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Oct 2013 13:17

One of the best example of how our late decision making process is a matter of time , opportunity and money lost ........A reengine of Jags should have been done a decade back or so and decision should not take more than 2 -3 years from date of RFP by now we could have had better Jaguar with all bells and whistles ......Money lost would be if and when the decision is taken time lost and due to single vendor situation the chance that Honeywell would jack up the price is very real.

Its better to fix what ails the MOD first and foremost before we end up blaming all the vendors for our woes.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 24 Oct 2013 13:37

Austin wrote:Where do we stand on Jag engine upgrade ?

an rfp was issued to Honeywell in 2012. see details here -

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ters-mmrca

As for the Jaguar project, the plan is to finish the "design and development'' phase with Honeywell on the initial two fighters by 2015-16. The "complete re-engine'' phase of the remaining 123 fighters will be completed by 2023-24 by HAL under transfer of technology from the US firm.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Oct 2013 17:56

Thanks pragnya .......2023-24 is really a long time like a decade from now..........most likely Jags will remain in IAF inventory untill 2035.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Oct 2013 17:59

India, Raytheon Negotiate ISTAR Buy

Raytheon has proposed a Gulfstream to serve as a platform as India boosts its ISTAR ground-detecting capabilities.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is negotiating purchase of two intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition reconnaissance (ISTAR) aircraft from Raytheon to boost its ground-detection capabilities.

Negotiations got a push after a visit by US Vice President Joseph Biden to New Delhi July 23, and a team from Raytheon briefed IAF officials here on the ISTAR capabilities on Oct. 11, said a source in the Ministry of Defence.

An executive of Raytheon here said their team has briefed IAF officials, but provided no details.

IAF interest in ISTAR capabilities was boosted by allied operations in Libya.

“The U.S.-led operations in Afghanistan and the Operation Ellamy in Libya have brought to light the use of ISTAR aircraft and IAF decided to acquire these capabilities,” said a retired IAF official.

IAF shortlisted Raytheon after evaluating responses to a request for information sent in 2011 to Thales, Boeing, BAE, Elta and Raytheon. IAF proposes to purchase two ISTAR aircraft from Raytheon on a government-to-government basis at a cost of about $350 million each. Raytheon has offered a Gulfstream platform for the aircraft but has left it open for the IAF to make its own platform selection.

The ISTAR aircraft will use active electronically scanned array radar and be able to scan more than 30,000 kilometers in a minute and analyze the data in 10 to 15 minutes to identify targets. The system would operate in all weather, day and night. To cover India’s lengthy borders, the ISTAR surveillance aircraft would need to fly as high as 40,000 feet , said an IAF official.

When acquired, the ISTAR aircraft will be integrated with India’s indigenous air command and control system (IACCS).

Being built on the lines of NATO’s air command-and-control system, IACCS will handle air traffic control, surveillance, air mission control, airspace management and force management functions, added the IAF official. IAF’s airborne warning and control system (AWACS), aerostat radars and other radars are being integrated with the IACCS, enabling quick transfer of data from various platforms to a central battlefield management system.

ISTAR aircraft are used against ground targets and for battlefield management, whereas the AWACS are meant for air defense and aerial targeting, said the IAF official. India also uses aerostat radars, which are mini versions of the AWACS and do not help in ground target acquisition.

The service also uses UAVs for surveillance and reconnaissance, but they have limited capabilities.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 24 Oct 2013 18:12

First indigenous S-92 helicopter cabin by TATA Sikorsky JV

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Oct 2013 18:29

Flippin' through some old papers I came across a 2006 Vayu,where the late great Air Cmde. Jasjit Singh spoke elequently from the grave.He predicted then,in writing a comprehensive forecast about the future of the IAF,that the LCA would not arrive in service before 2016/17,that it would take 5-6 years to decide upon an MMRCA and another 5 years more before the aircraft entered service/was built at home! He wrote this 7 years ago and his timeframe seems spot on.The same issue has detailed features about all the upgrades,Jaguar,MIG-21 Bisons,MIG-27s,M-2000s,MIG-29s,listing out the new eqpt. etc. There is also a report about the FGFA ,the initial argy-bargy about what we would get out of the programme.At that time,the Indian desi stealth bird was envisaged as a single-engined aircraft! One hasn't come across this fact (?) anywhere,which should the a hard look at a modified LCA for the future with some degree of stealth. Secondly,if the Gripen E is also being touted as a UCAV in the future by SAAB,the old idea mooted by some a few years ago about developing a UCAV out of the LCA is another prospect.We do have an ongoing classified UCAV project though,but what if...?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Oct 2013 18:03

Indian Air Force launches own 3G Cellular Network named AFCEL

The IAF through AFCEL aims to bring all its units and stations under the overarching umbrella of 3 G connectivity.

member_25279 · Post by **member_25279** » 25 Oct 2013 18:36

chackojoseph wrote:Indian Air Force launches own 3G Cellular Network named AFCEL

The IAF through AFCEL aims to bring all its units and stations under the overarching umbrella of 3 G connectivity.

Bit of a waste of national resources....duplicating a 3G network with all it's attendent BTS's, CBSC's, NGN and IN.....not to mention that that present "industry" grade encryption can be hacked into. What is the logic behind this I fail to understand. Owning a 3G network is not akin to having a military grade secure network....rather weird decision that has no strategic bearing but will have added costs which contribute to over reaching defence preparedness......

nits · Post by **nits** » 25 Oct 2013 18:59

^^ Why we are always ready to criticize our armed forces on a drop of Hat. Do you know what security has gone in there networks ? do you know they have not taken any additional measures by which we claim its par to any other network...If its done... it must have been done for good. Lets have some faith and trust in armed force.

By having there own network
- they have 100% control over it
- they know who is using it for what, where and when...
- In time of crisis they will not be dependent on private co.s whose network goes down \ get jammed etc
- and much more which we don't know and should not ...

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 25 Oct 2013 20:58

arijitsengupta wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Indian Air Force launches own 3G Cellular Network named AFCEL

The IAF through AFCEL aims to bring all its units and stations under the overarching umbrella of 3 G connectivity.
Bit of a waste of national resources....duplicating a 3G network with all it's attendent BTS's, CBSC's, NGN and IN.....not to mention that that present "industry" grade encryption can be hacked into. What is the logic behind this I fail to understand. Owning a 3G network is not akin to having a military grade secure network....rather weird decision that has no strategic bearing but will have added costs which contribute to over reaching defence preparedness......

On the contrary, building a refining high-speed, high-bandwidth networks is critical to any military. It's also something they can sharpen their information security skills on. And most importantly, in times of conflict or emergencies, it might just be the only network to not go down.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2013 21:16

there is some talk that cellphone tower signals could be used in some grid computing fashion to detect VLO objects...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Oct 2013 21:21

Singha wrote:there is some talk that cellphone tower signals could be used in some grid computing fashion to detect VLO objects...

As "passive" transmitters.

member_25279 · Post by **member_25279** » 25 Oct 2013 21:38

@Nits and @Aditya_M

Gentlemen, I have spent the last 21 years working in the GSM and CDMA field in 7 countries, including India. I have managed green field ventures for very very large Telecom majors in both CDMA and GSM. That is me. Feel free to check me out on Linkedin.

@Nits - As a tax payer and a person who knows the field of Mobile telephony intimately, I must tell you that I am not criticizing the armed forces, but merely giving my well understood reasoning that this is nothing but a waste of national resources. For you to understand that, you need to understand Mobile telephony in depth and also TRAI and Govt. of India mandates on resource sharing. I would also urge you to understand how the "mobile telephony signalling" really works.....when you state that in times of crisis they will not be dependent on private companies....are you even aware of how signals in the GSM 3G field are transmitted? I am absolutely sure that you have no clue. But I do. Since I help set up very such systems and manage engineers who set them up. And yes, I have a fairly good idea what the security features are. More than that....3G as a spectrum is a very expensive resource and will not work unless the IAF now goes out and invests in thousands of 3G enabled recieving devices across the board. Anyways, I reserve my judgement.

@Aditya_M.....Please understand what the technology is all about, before you make a statement. No military in the world (including the US Military....and in IT they are the Gold Standard, since they get to use and abuse the most advanced Connection systems in the world before it is released for the general public) uses a captive 3G GSM mobile network for their needs....oh and a question for you in lieu of your last line...."when our opponents bomb the BTS towers, will they differentiate between and Airtel and IAF and not bomb the IAF ones?" or "When the next Phailin strike....will it bypass the IAF BTS and strike only the Vodafone one??"....