India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[Singha]

excerpt from firstpost quoting german media.
if this is what happens to one of closest nato allies (not in the buddy buddy anglosphere though)...I am expecting several deportations of US consulate staff from paris and berlin soon before this is over.
---
Citing US intelligence sources, the Bild am Sonntag daily reported Sunday that Obama was informed of the spying programme by National Security Agency (NSA) director Keith Alexander in 2010, but did not ask that the programme be ended and even requested a full report on the chancellor.

Obama, however, assured Merkel during a phone conversation last Wednesday that he was not aware of the spying programme and would have stopped it if he had known, media reports said. Germany plans to send a high-level delegation to the US in the next few days to discuss the spying allegations with the White House and US intelligence agencies.

The NSA eavesdropped on calls made with the phone provided to Merkel by her political party until July and even intercepted calls made on the secure phone that the German leader started using last summer, Bild am Sonntag reported. In July, the chancellor swapped her Nokia for a government-issued encrypted Blackberry Z10.

The phone calls were intercepted by the 18 NSA employees working on the fourth floor of the US embassy in Berlin and reports were sent directly to the White House without first processing them at the spy agency’s headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland. The weekly Der Spiegel reported that Merkel’s cell phone has been on an NSA target list since 2002, three years before she took office.

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/fwire/germany- ... _medium=hp

[Philip]

The NSA snoopin' fallout has been devastating.The US is under immense fire from its foreign allies.Snoopin' on your friends is simply unacceptable.This has resulted in a dramatic turn around by Diane Feinstein ,head of the Senate Intel Committee ,who is now demanding a turnaround in policy.It reminds us of that famous quote from history by Juvenal,

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?,translated as " "Who will guard the guards themselves?" or "Who watches the watchmen?" .

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/o ... sed-allies

Dianne Feinstein: 'I am totally opposed' to NSA surveillance of US allies

Senate intelligence committee chair, who has been a loyal defender of the NSA, demands a 'total' surveillance review
Beta

Paul Lewis and Spencer Ackerman in Washington
The Guardian, Monday 28 October 2013 22.11 GMT

Dianne Feinstein
'It is abundantly clear that a total review of all intelligence programs is necessary,' Feinstein said. Photo: J Scott Applewhite /AP

The chair of the Senate intelligence committee, who has been a loyal defender of the National Security Agency, dramatically broke ranks on Monday, saying she was "totally opposed" to the US spying on allies and demanding a total review of all surveillance programs.

California Democratic senator Dianne Feinstein strongly criticised the NSA's monitoring of the calls of friendly world leaders such as German chancellor Angela Merkel.

Feinstein, who has steadfastly defended the NSA's mass surveillance programs, added that both Barack Obama and members of her committee, which is supposed to received classified briefings, had been kept in the dark about operations to target foreign leaders.

"It is abundantly clear that a total review of all intelligence programs is necessary so that members of the Senate Intelligence Committee are fully informed as to what is actually being carried out by the intelligence community," Feinstein said in a statement to reporters.

"Unlike NSA's collection of phone records under a court order, it is clear to me that certain surveillance activities have been in effect for more than a decade and that the Senate Intelligence Committee was not satisfactorily informed.

She added:

With respect to NSA collection of intelligence on leaders of US allies – including France, Spain, Mexico and Germany – let me state unequivocally: I am totally opposed.

The senator also provided the first official confirmation of a German report that indicated Merkel's phone had been monitored for more than a decade. "It is my understanding that President Obama was not aware Chancellor Merkel's communications were being collected since 2002," Feinstein said. "That is a big problem."

The senator's dramatic intervention comes as the White House struggles to contain the diplomatic fallout from a series of revelations about the NSA's spy operations abroad. They include a report in the Guardian, based on documents leaked by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, that at least 35 world leaders have been monitored by the agency.

"Unless the United States is engaged in hostilities against a country or there is an emergency need for this type of surveillance, I do not believe the United States should be collecting phone calls or emails of friendly presidents and prime ministers. The president should be required to approve any collection of this sort," Feinstein added.

The White House has informed me that collection on our allies will not continue, which I support. But as far as I'm concerned, Congress needs to know exactly what our intelligence community is doing. To that end, the committee will initiate a major review into all intelligence collection programs."

Feinstein's statement also comes at a crucial time for the NSA, one the eve of legislation that will curtail the agency's powers – and amid the first signs the White House may be starting to distance itself from security chiefs in recent days. On Monday, the White House's chief spokesman, Jay Carney, said the administration "acknowledged the tensions" caused by Snowden's disclosures.

"The president clearly feels strongly about making sure we are not just collecting information because we can, but because we should," Carney said. "We recognize there needs to be additional constraints on how we gather and use intelligence."

Obama told ABC news on Monday evening that he would not discuss classified information but accepted that security operations were being reassessed to ensure proper oversight of the NSA's technical abilities.

He said: "The national security operations, generally, have one purpose and that is to make sure the American people are safe and that I'm making good decisions. I'm the final user of all the intelligence that they gather. But they're involved in a whole wide range of issues.

"We give them policy direction. But what we've seen over the last several years is their capacities continue to develop and expand, and that's why I'm initiating now a review to make sure that what they're able to do doesn't necessarily mean what they should be doing."

On Tuesday morning, James Sensenbrenner, the Wisconsin Republican and author of the 2001 Patriot Act, will introduce a bill called the USA Freedom Act that will ban warrantless bulk phone metadata collection and prevent the NSA from querying its foreign communications databases for identifying information on Americans. Patrick Leahy, the Vermont Democrat who chairs the Senate judiciary committee, will introduce the bill's Senate counterpart that same day.

Also on Tuesday, the two most senior intelligence leaders are set to testify before the House intelligence committee on Tuesday. Both are now expected to be grilled on why they appear not to have informed either the White House or congressional oversight committees about the spying activities directed at foreign leaders.

James Clapper, the director of national intelligence who is under fire for misleading Congress on bulk domestic collection, will testify about surveillance reform Tuesday afternoon. He will be accompanied by General Keith Alexander, the director of the NSA, who last week mused to a Pentagon blog that "we ought to come up with a way of stopping" reporters' stories about the NSA's bulk collection programs.

Their performance tomorrow is likely to be influential toward members of Congress on the fence about bulk domestic collection ahead of a vote on Sensenbrenner's bill, as a July predecessor came within seven votes of passage.

Feinstein's shifting position was not the only emerging challenge confronting the NSA late Monday. A new disclosure from the Electronic Frontier Foundation added to the agency's woes by suggesting that it began testing means to gather location data on cellphones inside the US before informing the secret surveillance court that oversees it.

A short document apparently written in 2011 by an NSA lawyer discussed a 2010 "mobility testing effort" involving "cell site locations." The lawyer, whose name was redacted in a document obtained by the group under the Freedom of Information Act, said that the Justice Department was believed to have "orally advised" the so-called Fisa Court that "we had obtained a limited set of test data sampling of cellular mobility data (cell site location information) pursuant to the Court-authorized program" under section 215 of the Patriot Act, which the NSA uses to justify collecting Americans' phone records in bulk.

Alexander recently conceded that the so-called "pilot program" for cellular geolocation collection existed and said it was potentially a "future requirement for the country." It was previously unknown that the pilot program proceeded before the Fisa Court knew of it.

Just one month ago, in her own committee, Feinstein, delivered a full-throated and unequivocal defense of every surveillance activity conducted by the NSA.

"It is my opinion that the surveillance activities conducted under FISA, and other programs operated by the National Security Agency, are lawful, they are effective, and they are conducted under careful oversight within the NSA, by the Department of Justice and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, and by the FISA Court and the Congress," Feinstein said on September 26.

In August, following disclosures that the NSA had improperly collected data on thousands of Americans, Feinstein accused the Washington Post of misquoting her, saying her committee "has never identified an instance in which the NSA has intentionally abused its authority to conduct surveillance for inappropriate purposes".

Feinstein is bringing her own legislation to enable superficial reforms of the NSA and the secret court system, but stops short of curbing the intelligence community's powers, is being marked up at her committee on Tuesday.

Feinstein's about-face presents the major challenge for the White House, which perceives the California Democrat as a key Senate surrogate on surveillance issues.

Obama has yet to take a position on the Leahy and Sensenbrenner bills. Congressional aides expect a major push by the NSA to defeat the bills, but are unsure how vigorously the White House will oppose them.

Carney's remarks on Monday, prompted by a growing sense of diplomatic backlash against the US over the NSA, provide additional uncertainty. US officials have distanced Obama from the foreign-leader spying in anonymous comments to the Wall Street Journal.

[Prem]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10 ... iolations/
US will reportedly hit Infosys with record fine for immigration violations

The United States government is preparing to hit India-based outsourcing giant Infosys with the largest immigration fine ever levied, after an investigation found that the company illegally placed workers on visitor visas at American corporate clients. The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday that the fine would be approximately $35 million. The Journal reported that a probe conducted by the Department of Homeland Security and the State Department found that Infosys was able to bring a number of its employees to the U.S. for long-term stays by using B-1 visas as opposed to the more expensive H-1B visas.B-1 visas are meant to be used for short stays and can be obtained in a matter of days for $160. H-1B visas entitle the holder to remain in the U.S. for as long as three years. The U.S. issues a maximum of 65,000 H-1B visas per year and acquiring one can cost up to $5,000 per individual. The settlement in the case is expected to be announced Wednesday, according to a press release issued by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Texas. A company spokesman told the Journal that Infosys had set aside $35 million to settle the case and cover legal costs. The investigation stemmed from a 2011 lawsuit filed by an Infosys employee named Jack Palmer, who sued the company for harassment and breach of contract, claiming that his managers had retaliated against him after he raised concerns that the company was violating immigration laws.Palmer alleged that he had attended meetings at Infosys headquarters in Bangalore, India, where he was asked to prepare letters in support of B-1 applications that would claim employees were coming to America for meetings as opposed to working at a job. Palmer's lawsuit was dismissed by a federal judge in 2012, but his attorney, Kenny Mendelsohn, told the Journal Palmer had co-operated with the federal investigation.

[Philip]

Great act of friendship from our much-touted "greatest strategic partner"! Anyway,the manner in which the US treats its allies should be a wake-up call for those touting a full embrace with Uncle Sam.He'll use the opportunity to saturate your clothing with bugs!

Will anyone imagine a US pres. acknowledging that his NSA bugged the leaders of his allies?!

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security ... ious-video

German accusations of US spying run fast and furious (+video)
German media cite unnamed NSA sources saying Obama knew Merkel was tapped. US sources on and off the record say it isn't so.

Washington went on the defensive over the weekend as new reports citing unnamed US intelligence sources gave embarrassing details of the National Security Agency's surveillance of German Chancellor Angela Merkel and President Barack Obama's knowledge thereof.

German media on Sunday aired new details and accusations of the depth of the NSA's spying in Germany, ramping up the tensions between Berlin and Washington.

Bild am Sontag quotes an unnamed NSA official saying that NSA chief Gen. Keith Alexander had briefed Obama in 2010 on the agency's surveillance of Mrs. Merkel, reports Agence France-Presse. "Obama did not halt the operation but rather let it continue," the source added. And Der Spiegel reports that according to documents it obtained, Merkel was first put under surveillance by the NSA in 2002.

But US officials, on the record and anonymously, deny that Obama knew the particulars of the NSA spying on world leaders, including that Merkel was specifically targeted.

RECOMMENDED: How well do you know the world of spying? Take our CIA and NSA quiz.

The Wall Street Journal reports that, according to an unnamed US official, the decision to spy on Merkel would have been made within the NSA, and Obama would not have been consulted. "These decisions are made at NSA," the official said. "The president doesn't sign off on this stuff."

The Journal notes further that if Der Spiegel's report that the spying dates back to 2002 is true, "it is less likely NSA would have had a reason to brief the Obama White House without a specific reason to do so, because it would have been seen as one of many continuing surveillance programs at the agency."

And the NSA denied the Bild report outright, with a spokesperson saying that General Alexander "did not discuss with President Obama in 2010 an alleged foreign intelligence operation involving German Chancellor Merkel, nor has he ever discussed alleged operations involving Chancellor Merkel," according to AFP.

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This "Snoop-Gate" and its bugging is strangely reminiscent of the mother-of-all "gates", Watergate.What did the pres. know about the snoopin' on allies and when did he know it?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... l/3286709/

White House: Review will address global NSA concerns
World leaders react to NSA spying reports
U.S. surveillance policies aimed at allies have sparked strong reactions across the globe. Below is a sampling of reaction from leaders to the disclosure of National Security Agency spying programs in news reports.

[ramana]

Obama may even get local credit for this if its true for it bolsters the latent zenophobes.

[CRamS]

Obama is as much the president of USA as MMS is the PM of India. The real levers of power lie elsewhere in both case.

[disha]

Obama was ensuring peace after winning the Nobel peace prize. I just have to laugh at Germans - what were they thinking?

[panduranghari]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10 ... iolations/
US will reportedly hit Infosys with record fine for immigration violations

How much of this posturing is to placate the right wing neo cons AND Hispanics?

In June, the Senate, dominated by Obama's Democratic allies, passed a historic reform package that would create a pathway to legal status and eventual citizenship for millions of undocumented immigrants.
The Senate plan, crafted and approved with Republican support, would strengthen the border with Mexico and reorganize the visa system to give priority to high-demand fields, including engineers and farm workers.
But in the House of Representatives, Republicans hold the majority, and they are more hostile toward so-called "amnesty" for the millions of foreigners living illegally in the United States.
According to Democrats, immigration reform provides a chance to improve the image of conservatives, whose popularity sank after being blamed for the recent political paralysis in Washington.
"We have here a golden opportunity," said Democratic political consultant Maria Cardona. "We have a window of opportunity of one or two months, when the House can vote the reform."
Democratic Congressman Luis Gutierrez was more cautious.
"It is hard to be optimistic about the prospects for anything happening in a bipartisan manner on Capitol Hill these days," he said, though predicting immigration reform could be taken up "before the end of the year."

Some Republicans are in favor of immigration reform, which could help the party regain some influence among the increasingly critical contingent of Hispanic voters, who largely cast Democratic ballots today.

[Philip]

So O'bomber aka O'Snooper has been BS'ing alll along! So what's new?

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-spyi ... 5295.story

White House OKd spying on allies, U.S. intelligence officials say
NSA and other U.S. intelligence agency staff members are said to be angry at President Obama for denying knowledge of the spying.

Xcpts:

By Ken Dilanian and Janet Stobart

October 28, 2013,
WASHINGTON -- The White House and State Department signed off on surveillance targeting phone conversations of friendly foreign leaders, current and former U.S. intelligence officials said Monday, pushing back against assertions that President Obama and his aides were unaware of the high-level eavesdropping.

Professional staff members at the National Security Agency and other U.S. intelligence agencies are angry, these officials say, believing the president has cast them adrift as he tries to distance himself from the disclosures by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden that have strained ties with close allies.

The resistance emerged as the White House said it would curtail foreign intelligence collection in some cases and two senior U.S. senators called for investigations of the practice.

France, Germany, Italy, Mexico and Sweden have all publicly complained about the NSA surveillance operations, which reportedly captured private cellphone conversations by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, among other foreign leaders.
FOR THE RECORD:
U.S. spying: An article in the Oct. 29 front section about U.S. spying on foreign leaders misidentified Sen. John McCain as the ranking minority member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. He is a member of the committee, but no longer the ranking member.

On Monday, as Spain joined the protest, the fallout also spread to Capitol Hill.

Until now, members of Congress have chiefly focused their attention on Snowden's disclosures about the NSA's collection of U.S. telephone and email records under secret court orders.

"With respect to NSA collection of intelligence on leaders of U.S. allies — including France, Spain, Mexico and Germany — let me state unequivocally: I am totally opposed," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), who chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee.

"Unless the United States is engaged in hostilities against a country or there is an emergency need for this type of surveillance, I do not believe the United States should be collecting phone calls or emails of friendly presidents and prime ministers," she said in a statement.

Feinstein said the Intelligence Committee had not been told of "certain surveillance activities" for more than a decade, and she said she would initiate a major review of the NSA operation. She added that the White House had informed her that "collection on our allies will not continue," although other officials said most U.S. surveillance overseas would not be affected.

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), ranking minority member of the Armed Services Committee, said Congress should consider creating a special select committee to examine U.S. eavesdropping on foreign leaders.

"Obviously, we're going to want to know exactly what the president knew and when he knew it," McCain told reporters in Chicago. "We have always eavesdropped on people around the world. But the advance of technology has given us enormous capabilities, and I think you might make an argument that some of this capability has been very offensive both to us and to our allies."

In Madrid, Spanish Foreign Ministry officials summoned the U.S. ambassador to object to the alleged NSA communications net in Spain. Citing documents leaked by Snowden, El Mundo, a major Spanish daily, said the U.S. spy agency had collected data on more than 60 million phone calls made in just 30 days, from early December 2012 to early January 2013.

PHOTOS: President Obama's past

Precisely how the surveillance is conducted is unclear. But if a foreign leader is targeted for eavesdropping, the relevant U.S. ambassador and the National Security Council staffer at the White House who deals with the country are given regular reports, said two former senior intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity in discussing classified information.

Obama may not have been specifically briefed on NSA operations targeting a foreign leader's cellphone or email communications, one of the officials said. "But certainly the National Security Council and senior people across the intelligence community knew exactly what was going on, and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous."

If U.S. spying on key foreign leaders was news to the White House, current and former officials said, then White House officials have not been reading their briefing books.

[ramana]

After Infosys type companies next in line is the spice trade. US now claims spices from India are contaminated!!!!

[Hitesh]

Just do a tit for tat thing against American goods and companies and America will get the message. Leverage more fines against DuPont, the successor to Union Carbide for failure to clean up properly or some other stuff as a warning shot across the bow.

[ramana]

it seems US will allow exapanded usage of electronic devices on airplanes.

I guess all the better to monitor you!!!

[Karan M]

I read the original dont use electronic devices stuff dates way back from when they were not sure whether EMI/EMC issues would arise and how to handle them.. today its bizarre to be told to shut stuff off, even if its on flight mode..

[CRamS]

Guys,

who is this guy SIDDHARTH DHANVANT SHANGHVI. Heavy whining op-ed in the NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/01/opini ... ndian.html

Some choice quotes

It may mean being so angry at the larger failure of the system, the physical failure — the potholed roads, the power shutdowns — that one’s anger can become utterly mute from its weight. And it may also mean being so bored by the failure of cultural originality — the absence of anything beyond Bollywood, and the fact that most of our contemporary art is shamelessly derivative of Western work — that the inertia of imagination can knock you out cold.

and this one

And sometimes, when it appears the revolution will exhaust itself before ever beginning, the computer servers in India for Getmeoutofhere.com will crash.

[habal]

another slick talking brown guy ? Sometimes you gotta feel sorry for these types, they have no go unless they deprecate their own. It's that bad. Also the 'inertia of his imagination' has knocked him out cold.

[Karan M]

Guys,

who is this guy SIDDHARTH DHANVANT SHANGHVI. Heavy whining op-ed in the NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/01/opini ... ndian.html

Some choice quotes

It may mean being so angry at the larger failure of the system, the physical failure — the potholed roads, the power shutdowns — that one’s anger can become utterly mute from its weight. And it may also mean being so bored by the failure of cultural originality — the absence of anything beyond Bollywood, and the fact that most of our contemporary art is shamelessly derivative of Western work — that the inertia of imagination can knock you out cold.

and this one

And sometimes, when it appears the revolution will exhaust itself before ever beginning, the computer servers in India for Getmeoutofhere.com will crash.

Its actually a pretty good article and what many folks feel after the past 8 years of complete misgovernance.A lot of folks, including kith and kin, friends etc all came back to India hoping to be part of an exciting growth story. Instead, they received everything being gradually set back to square 1.

Perhaps you don't understand this and correlate it with whining because as a NRI, you are hence not exposed to the constant misgovernance and small irritations day in and night out. Plus there is of course the fact that NYT will usually highlight only the negative articles about India and not the good parts (achievements and progress despite the odds).

Be as it may, the overall article rings true in many ways.

In spite of all the rumors of shoddy infrastructure and insidious corruption, with my boots on the ground, it appeared to me a healthy, hopeful time to return to India.
I was in my 20s at the time, and I thought a lot about what it meant to be a “young person in India.” I was a part of our largest demographic (over half of the nation is under age 25). This fact was billed as something attractive by the liberal press. Although later I came to think more deeply about the other things we also associate with youth — bad credit, for instance, and binge drinking — for the moment, inexperience and healthy knees formed an exciting counterpoint to the traditional Indian veneration of old age and senility (our incumbent prime minister, Manmohan Singh, is now past 80). Youth, the new malls told me, was king. To fit in, I even bought a pair of jogging track pants. I almost bought a hoodie, too.

A story all too common and repeated, I am sure across India. Many Indians went abroad, got educated, came back to India despite opportunities abroad because they thought they were going to be part of something dynamic. Instead, they were left high and dry, in several cases, because the past 8 odd years have taken the NDA India Shining hype and made it into India won't change, instead.

And he is very right here. What does a 80+ year old like MMS know or care about the aspirations of the young? He is basically busy living his dream (ultimate babu) turning a nelsons eye to whatever is going wrong all about him, feted by the "liberal press" the author so aptly describes.

I’m in my 30s now — still young, yet old enough to be fabulously bitter. When I go out now, the talk at the bars is about which Maldivian island is best for diving. People in Mumbai say they want to get out of the “slum capital of the universe.” They want to go deep-sea diving instead. I’m told I’m part of India’s privileged elite, the powerful, unconscionable ruling class that says in public, “Actually, get four bottles of that red.” It’s a little like being stuck in a Bret Easton Ellis novel, where the protagonist orders chai after a night spent on Special K. With this lot of new friends I sometimes cruise down the now-completed Sea Link, all the while listening to the Icelandic rock band Sigur Ros, which my friends claim “speaks to their pain.”

This is basically a lot of the angst that comes from being part of a dysfunctional kleptocracy. There's only so much partying you can do, only so much you can ignore about your surroundings, whether it be slums or abject apathy. Being 9-5'ers many folks can't do anything to address that, and it is not being addressed. Alternative is to become a socialist do gooder. He's actually being self deprecatory here, in a wry sort of way.. people are seeking ways to escape to a parallel reality (the references to Maldives etc) whereas they too are prisoners of the very system. And yet, the truly powerful (the politicians, really rich) point them out as being highly privileged (can get four bottles of that red) and hence they should keep quiet and not expect anything better or even that things should change. In short, keep the poor poor, and the upper middle class/rich (those who rise up) should bide their peace and be grateful for all that they have.
The conspicuous consumption is also a way to do something, that makes life interesting. With inflation etc - keeping money in the bank does not even outrun inflation by a significant amount. You might as well blow it up wherever whenever, life is too short. Again, a common attitude on the basis of which all the malls, holiday ventures, restaurants etc are running.

Though rarely used, the full name of the bridge is the Rajiv Gandhi Sea Link, so called for the former prime minister, who was assassinated in 1991. A few weeks ago, Rajiv Gandhi’s son, Rahul, publicly criticized legislation supported by his party, the Indian National Congress, that would allow legislators convicted of crimes to seek public office. Regretting his public outburst, the former hope for change in India said that his mother, Sonia, had pointed out that his choice of words to denounce the ordinance — “complete nonsense” — was strong. “But I am young,” he countered (he is already in his 40s, although in Indian politics, 81 is when you get your driving permit).

A wry take on the system as it stands today.

I’d have liked to ask Mr. Gandhi what that means: “I am young.” I myself no longer have a clear idea. Perhaps it means being so disillusioned with life in modern India that, quite frankly, never mind the Congress’s election promise of eradicating poverty, I’d like him to buy me a Scotch and soda now. It may mean being so angry at the larger failure of the system, the physical failure — the potholed roads, the power shutdowns — that one’s anger can become utterly mute from its weight. And it may also mean being so bored by the failure of cultural originality — the absence of anything beyond Bollywood, and the fact that most of our contemporary art is shamelessly derivative of Western work — that the inertia of imagination can knock you out cold.

This part is also true.

The system is completely broken and anybody who has lived abroad for extended periods of time will feel it the most. Those who have lived in India for most of their lives and only visited abroad will not feel similarly angry. They have become accustomed to how bad things are, and are hence willing to compromise. Indians who have worked in developed nations, feel particularly dismayed because of a simple reason - the system there, made by equally silly/flawed/normal human beings, works.

The quality of life is far better and there is no getting around that fact. About the three things better in India - medical treatment is far less expensive, eating out at smaller places is cheaper, so is education (though all three are zooming up, to first world price levels).

Coming to originality. Speaking to somebody far older the other day, he pointed out that even Bollywood film music of today is nothing but a mishmash of western style beats and hip shaking. Forget about the old melodies which we still seek out on youtube etc. Those were amazing compared to the junk we are fed nowadays.

Heck, there is a new Mahabharata which is coming on TV right now, and it is not even a scratch on the original series that was on our TVs a couple of decades back.. funnily enough, in our bid to adapt western tech ie SFX/thoughts to our own culture, we seem to be making a pastiche out of the latter and trying to compensate with glitz, fancy stuff versus proper effort.

If Mr. Gandhi believes youth is given to impetuosity, I’d say to him that it is also marked by restlessness: Young people drift. Sometimes the forces in a country, be it corruption in the political classes or bad grammar in the national press, provoke a revolution. And sometimes, when it appears the revolution will exhaust itself before ever beginning, the computer servers in India for Getmeoutofhere.com will crash.

Excellently put. There is a lot of discontent in a lot of folks right now in terms of what they wish for (decent std of living, decent quality of life etc), all those aspirations are not being met. If things continue to be the way they are, people will seek to emigrate.

I am already seeing many folks choosing to vote with their feet, so to speak.

While it is easy to denigrate these folks, and call them traitors or sell outs, the fact is it is that a loss of talent, India can ill afford. Amongst some families with really hard working parents, good education - again, children are being told to look abroad (US etc) for further studies and opportunities.

We ignore all this at our peril.

--

Bottomline, on this one article alone, I would not call the author any names or criticize him. He has just voiced a lot of what many people feel.

[Rony]

Karan, the point is not that the governance has taken downhill in India.The point is there is no need for a brown guy to whine about India's problems in a psudo-liberal American newspaper whose contempt for India is well known.If he wants to whine about India's problems, he should do that in a Indian newspaper addressing Indians not in American newspaper addressing Americans.The result of that article is it will have zero effect on Indians in India but negative stereotypes about India will get reinforced in American minds. It puzzles me that Indians fight their internal battles sitting on videsi shoulders without any inhibitions, a unique disgusting quality which we don't recognize much but others do.

[Karan M]

Karan, the point is not that the governance has taken downhill in India.The point is there is no need for a brown guy to whine about India's problems in a psudo-liberal American newspaper whose hatred for India is well known.If he wants to whine about India's problems, he should do that in a Indian newspaper addressing Indians not in American newspaper addressing Americans.The result os that article is it will have zero effect on Indians but negative stereotypes about India will get reinforced in American minds. It puzzles me that Indians fight their internal battles fighting on videsi shoulders without any inhibitions, a unique disgusting quality which we don't recognize much but others do.

Sorry but you are making a lot of assumptions here. Let me explain.

"a brown guy to whine about India's problems in a psudo-liberal American newspaper whose hatred for India is well known."

First, do you think being brown, you should only write in "brown" newspapers? If tomorrow, anybody gets a chance to really point out India's issues and why they need effective governance, as versus the fake pablum being spread by the INC/media cabal, they shouldn't do so? So if somebody (like NYT recently) makes fake claims about Modi, and another "white newspaper" allows you to reply, you wouldn't? Is there any specific niti/rule/text that mentions what to, what not to?

Next, Do you think any "brown newspaper" will print all this? Take a look at all the brown media and who owns them. Even his jabs at MMS and RG/SG would not be allowed in our media a few years back. Now things are changing. After EIGHT years of complete disaster.

Third, "psudo-liberal American newspaper whose hatred for India is well known"

And you know this, having followed NYT. Ok. How many people in India know this? This guy is CA/Berkeley - traditionally liberal left, and will look upto the NYT. Similarly, you then expect him to know that the NYT is anti-India. Heres the thing, go out right now and poll every Indian you know, whether he knows the NYT exists, what is its history, is he educated about the NYT and whether it is anti-India or not. 90% would't know is my estimate.
Expecting people to know about these things, the same as you do is beside the point. From his perspective, he is writing in an US newspaper, not a Pakistani one.

he wants to whine about India's problems, he should do that in a Indian newspaper addressing Indians not in American newspaper addressing Americans.The result os that article is it will have zero effect on Indians but negative stereotypes about India will get reinforced in American minds.

And here is the crux of the problem. Let alone the fact that something like this would not even be allowed in most Indian media, especially that bit about senility and MMS..

Your issue is not that whether what he wrote is right or wrong. Your issue is whether "negative stereotypes about India will get reinforced in American minds".

Your priorities are out of whack. You should be more concerned about whether what he wrote is the truth. Not whether Indians abroad are sneered at by the Goras. Guess what they do and will continue to do so until and unless India advances to the point that all the folks return or India itself climbs the stakes.

Pretending that things are fine does nobody any good.

It puzzles me that Indians fight their internal battles fighting on videsi shoulders without any inhibitions, a unique disgusting quality which we don't recognize much but others do

Again, more assumptions. What internal battles is he fighting via any videsi shoulders and what does self loathing about Indians ("unique disgusting quality") have to do with any of this??

Go look outside - there are dozens of blog articles written by Chinese complaining about mainland China and how pathetically corrupt/polluted it is. There are blogs from UK folks cribbing about how drunken louts have spoilt social standards and why they are moving abroad for more civilized climes.

Every country has people who speak (and should speak out) about how things are, and how they should change.

And guess what, they are not Indians either. To claim that Indians have some "unique disgusting quality" is patently false, and dare I say it, ridiculous.

Its sad that CRamS and others have to suffer the fact that India is not perfect and some desi goes and writes about it, hence affecting how Americans look at them, but this is quite equal to the fact that we see slums daily and are inured to them. But get upset when somebody from abroad comes to India and mentions it in their accounts because they have seen nothing similar.

Plus this guy did not attack his country in any way, its culture or even its people. He merely mentioned the system that has failed, and yet you perceive this as some slight versus the videsi.

In which case, how exactly will you handle the far more trenchant comments that come from videsis who do visit India & reply in a coherent manner? Or dismiss all that as whining? Neither works.

Guess what people ARE coming from abroad and seeing India as it is. They see everything upfront. This article is peanuts in comparison. One guy expressing his opinion about what has happened and what's missing is not being a "brown" traitor to the "videsis".

[Karan M]

This is TD writing in the Telegraph about British society. Far more devastating and brutal in many ways. His articles are syndicated worldwide and repeated across blogs, newspapers etc. Is he a white traitor pandering to the browns? Whether cathartic or doing a social service, there is something to be said about honest accounts as long as they are not malicious.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9254642 ... -tidy.html

Alice Arnold, the BBC announcer, has become a national heroine by tossing a plastic bottle back into a car from which a passenger had thrown it. In view of the growing perversity of our law-enforcement agencies, she was lucky not to be charged with threatening behaviour, or worse.

As everyone knows, disputes over litter can become violent, which is why Arnold is now held in such high regard. In 2008, Evren Anil was stabbed to death in a busy London street after a youth threw a chocolate wrapper into his car and he objected. An elderly passer-by, who tried to intervene on Mr Anil’s behalf, was threatened with death. “If you do not get out of the way, I will kill you, too,” said the youth.

Not every confrontation ends so badly, of course. Recently in Nottingham – whose streets, incidentally, are paved with chewing gum – a boy of about 13 started to throw food at his friends, some of which landed by my feet at the bus stop where I was waiting. “Excuse me,” I said, mildly and politely, “could you pick that up?”

“Shut the ---- up!” he replied, and departed in triumph as there was absolutely nothing I could do to correct him without putting myself on the wrong side of the law.

Likewise, at the entrance to Euston station, a woman threw her cigarette end down at my feet, almost defiantly. When I asked her, again politely, to pick it up, she just said “No!” What could I do except bear my humiliation and despair?

It makes matters worse that I vet the people whom I ask to pick up their litter. Those with pit-bull faces I do not approach, as they are inclined immediately to fly into a murderous rage at the gentlest of implied reproaches.

[CRamS]

Karan MJi,

You make some very good, well thought out points. And believe me, after having lived in US for a quarter century, I could give a rat's ass for how I or Indians are perceived by NYT chutiyas. I am inured to that.

I am with RoniJi to the extent that this article in the NYT served no purpose other than a few mins time pass for those few whites who know about India and might have read it. And for those India haters, and there are many, this is cannon fodder.

But it does show the disgusting tendency among Indians to wash our dirty linen in the midst of foreigners. You dissected his piece very well. And every point you make is legitimate. But NYT is not the place for that. I would welcome an article in the NYT by someone who can talk about the US fraud in AfPak, and how it can make India's situation worse. I would welcome an article in the NYT by someone like him talk about US's diabolical alliance with TSP etc, and how that, coupled with an inpet govt in Delhi means TSP terrorism is being rewarded. A subject like this might have an impact because it impinges not only on India's faults, but puts a mirror in front of US. (Whether NYT will publish something like that is another story).

The problem with these kidns of articles by brown Sahibs is that it focuses on India's shit and absolves the whites of their crimes against India. To use a US analogy, this article is tantamount to say a white feminist in US whining about the lecherous, lewd lifestyle of many college women in an ultra right wing Christian conservative newspaper that at best has an apathetic attitude towards date rape, and at worst condones rapists by pointing out the faults of the victim. Or one of those African American Uncle Toms used by Fox news to talk about the dysfunctional nature of many inner city African families. Does pouring scorn over your own even if points out the truth serve any purpose when done so in front of those who have contempt for you in the first place? You get the drift.

I understand the frustration of this guy, as I do for many, many Indians like him. But in his zeal to login to "getmeoutofhere.com", he embraces the very nemesis of India who are no better towards Indian than MMS and other leadership he is lamenting. Thats the point I am making, and I assume RonyJi as well.

[Karan M]

Karan MJi,

You make some very good, well thought out points. And believe me, after having lived in US for a quarter century, I could give a rat's ass for how I or Indians are perceived by NYT chutiyas. I am inured to that.

I am with RoniJi to the extent that this article in the NYT served no purpose other than a few mins time pass for those few whites who know about India and might have read it. And for those India haters, and there are many, this is cannon fodder.

But it does show the disgusting tendency among Indians to wash our dirty linen in the midst of foreigners. You dissected his piece very well. And every point you make is legitimate. But NYT is not the place for that. I would welcome an article in the NYT by someone who can talk about the US fraud in AfPak, and how it can make India's situation worse. I would welcome an article in the NYT by someone like him talk about US's diabolical alliance with TSP etc, and how that, coupled with an inpet govt in Delhi means TSP terrorism is being rewarded. A subject like this might have an impact because it impinges not only on India's faults, but puts a mirror in front of US. (Whether NYT will publish something like that is another story).

The problem with these kidns of articles by brown Sahibs is that it focuses on India's shit and absolves the whites of their crimes against India. To use a US analogy, this article is tantamount to say a white feminist in US whining about the lecherous, lewd lifestyle of many college women in an ultra right wing Christian conservative newspaper that at best has an apathetic attitude towards date rape, and at worst condones rapists by pointing out the faults of the victim. Or one of those African American Uncle Toms used by Fox news to talk about the dysfunctional nature of many inner city African families. Does pouring scorn over your own even if points out the truth serve any purpose when done so in front of those who have contempt for you in the first place? You get the drift.

I understand the frustration of this guy, as I do for many, many Indians like him. But in his zeal to login to "getmeoutofhere.com", he embraces the very nemesis of India who are no better towards Indian than MMS and other leadership he is lamenting. Thats the point I am making, and I assume RonyJi as well.

The basic issue that you guys are missing here is that you are perceiving the world through your own prism:

1. Writing in foreign media about Indian problems is bad
2. Writing in NYT is worse
3. Only national issues should get written in NYT - AfPak etc, "absolves the whites of their crimes against India"

1.
Now regards 1 - I think you are just being too touchy.

this article is tantamount to say a white feminist in US whining about the lecherous, lewd lifestyle of many college women in an ultra right wing Christian conservative newspaper that at best has an apathetic attitude towards date rape, and at worst condones rapists by pointing out the faults of the victim. Or one of those African American Uncle Toms used by Fox news to talk about the dysfunctional nature of many inner city African families. Does pouring scorn over your own even if points out the truth serve any purpose

Lets look at the extremes you have used here. "Lecherous, lewd lifestyle" - where is that seen in this article? Again, by what standards do we judge others as well?

"Date rape" - again, where are the references to rape? And what's with the analogies towards rapists?

African Uncle Toms - actually Uncle Toms would be those who are used to perpetuate a system right? So if this guy was one of the rich praising India ("true India is seen in Spanish nightclubs, don't worry be happy") - I'd call him that.

Sorry, what you are doing here is taking a wry article on existential angst in modern suburban India, packed full of observations about how meaningless life can be if its lived without a clear purpose, and making it out to be a denouement of India as a whole.

We have to be more self confident than that. If these minor issues cause such cognitive dissonance, then what of the far worse issues India is plagued by?

Next, what makes you think that Americans cannot be far more scathing of their own culture. Look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Psycho

Or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_l ... _las_vegas

Point is some amount of self criticism is good.
Unfortunately, most Indian newspapers and webportals would not carry such an article purely because of one thing - his criticism of the family that must not be named.

But apart from that, its pretty tame. Pick up some of the "new" magazines and you'll think you are reading erotica in the guise of journalism. Like it or not, that too shows a window into current urban India, warts and all. I am no fan of it, but it is what it is.

2. Writing in NYT.. this guy is per his own background, somebody familiar with and ok with NYT (my assumption). But even that aside, lets be clear here, as I mentioned before MOST Indians have NO idea of NYT - good or bad, and would regard it as a prestigious paper with a very well stocked editorial board. (Of course, if what you get locally is Times of India, no wonder).

Similarly, if you ask people who routinely read Business stuff - they'll rah rah Economist.

Again, it takes a certain kind of exposure to alternative viewpoints - which we have on BRF, to understand the subtle and even not so subtle agenda these magazines have.

Per se, I don't think there is anything wrong in writing for ANY gora newspaper as long as your intentions are clear. As matter of fact, the big gripe I have about these papers is that they present overly rancid news stories about India and don't balance things out by presenting other points of view. The usual leftist method.

In which case, you should be criticizing the board for cherrypicking only such stories and not the author for expressing his views. What is so bad about him writing in NYT? He got a good place to write what he did, and he has written well.

3. Writing in NYT - only serious issues etc etc,"whites vs browns"

Sorry CRamS ji, here I think you are falling into the classic trap of if all you have is a hammer, every issue is a nail. Do you really think this guy is qualified to write about all that?

Just think for a second. Given his background, his likely group (liberal-left), sources of info (media) - what do you think he would have written?

If this gave you BP, his writing on something he is likely to be absolutely clueless about would have given you a coronary!!

Basically, this is just an interesting stream of consciousness article about a foreign country, which magazines like NYT publish in order to maintain their "international flavor".

It was neither as lurid or crude as some of the stuff that gets posted on expat boards eg exile.ru or some of the exotic sounding BS that comes from westerners who "discover" India.

In short, its pretty harmless.

Its the sort of article that shows that an entire group in India is feeling frustrated at the status quo of a corrupt, kleptocratic system that needs better.

As matter of fact, the savvy netizen could use it to score points against NYTs own coverage of Modi by pointing out that even the most liberal, well heeled folk are feeling lost in the current status quo.

To call this equivalent to some race traitorship, browns vs goras, equate it to accounts of rape - then sorry, we just risk making the entire criticism of NYT's slanted editiorials look like raving, because it brings in a whole lot of stuff that is far too serious (eg molestation) to be compared to such a relatively trivial article.

Lastly, how the heck are the whites alone responsible for the mess that has happened?

Sorry, they may have done their part to keep the current cabal in power, but the cabal are cent per cent Indian for the most part. I am not going to blame the whites for the problems that I see being perpetuated by Indians day in and night out. Its plain and simple greed, non accountability and corruption that is to blame for 90% of our issues within our country, and we see that day in and night out. They may have made us poor, and divided us, but we remain poor and divided because a bunch of our fellow Indians have long got used to that sort of behaviour and are experts at it too. As matter of fact, if we were to fix our issues, then these guys would come running to us for everything.. if we don't pick up our own rubbish, expecting the world to stand still and appreciate our finer point's ain't gonna happen. And the more angst there is at the lost 8 years, the better. The people who read NYT or whatever will also finally wake up (some of those sorts do exist).

[Rony]

First, do you think being brown, you should only write in "brown" newspapers? If tomorrow, anybody gets a chance to really point out India's issues and why they need effective governance, as versus the fake pablum being spread by the INC/media cabal, they shouldn't do so? So if somebody (like NYT recently) makes fake claims about Modi, and another "white newspaper" allows you to reply, you wouldn't? Is there any specific niti/rule/text that mentions what to, what not to?

You are not getting the point. I would reply to NYT if they make false claims about Modi/India/etc etc.But i would not post a article in NYT showing how my country is corrupt, how the system is inefficient etc etc.

Next, Do you think any "brown newspaper" will print all this? Take a look at all the brown media and who owns them.

'Brown newspapers' are know for their self flagellation and there are many critical articles about governance in Indian media. Not sure what you are implying here.

From his perspective, he is writing in an US newspaper, not a Pakistani one.

And whats the point of Indian whining about Indian problems in a American newspaper which majority of Indians don't read ? And i don't see a difference between writing in a US newspaper and a Paki one. The former display contempt and the latter display hatred for India.

Your issue is not that whether what he wrote is right or wrong. Your issue is whether "negative stereotypes about India will get reinforced in American minds".

Absolutely. American newspaper is not the place to whine about wrongs about India. Rights are fine.

Your priorities are out of whack. You should be more concerned about whether what he wrote is the truth. Not whether Indians abroad are sneered at by the Goras. Guess what they do and will continue to do so until and unless India advances to the point that all the folks return or India itself climbs the stakes.

There are (media) places to put your opinions and there are (media) places to keep your mouth shut. I don't see any value other than negative one where Indians self flagellate in NY times/Al zazeera/BBC/Dawn etc etc .

Pretending that things are fine does nobody any good.

I guss whining and self flagellating in front of Goras makes lot of good.

Go look outside - there are dozens of blog articles written by Chinese complaining about mainland China and how pathetically corrupt/polluted it is. There are blogs from UK folks cribbing about how drunken louts have spoilt social standards and why they are moving abroad for more civilized climes.

Dozens ?? I can count on my fingers the number of mainland chinese who self flagellate in the opinion pages of NY times like some Indians do. Even for those minority, they have to endure hate mail from the hundreds of mainland chinese in sina weibo accusing him/her of being a "traitor" .

how exactly will you handle the far more trenchant comments that come from videsis who do visit India & reply in a coherent manner? Or dismiss all that as whining? Neither works.

A videshi giving his trenchant comments after visiting India is different from a self flagellating Indian giving his trenchant comments on India in a videshi paper.

[KrishnaK]

Many Pakistans, same old India

Contrast New Delhi's isolation in Pakistan with how the US addresses multiple constituencies there. It matters little to America that it is the single most hated country in Pakistan (even more so than India). Washington addresses the government, and the spectrum of opposition parties, academia and civil society. It maintains contact with the Pakistani military and the ISI, even knowing that they have masterminded the deaths of thousands of American soldiers in Afghanistan. US intelligence agencies talk non-stop to jihadi groups, even as they listen non-stop to their radio and digital conversations. The American people and the US Congress are no more enamoured of Pakistan than is India. But Washington knows that anger must be cloaked in engagement, since estrangement takes away the power to influence.

[nachiket]

^^Shukla should pontificate after India pulls off a US like raid to send Hafiz Saeed and DI to meet their 72. The US engagement with pakistan is "Mooh me Raam, Bagal me Churi" type. We either have no churi or have no intention of using it.

[member_23692]

Karan MJi,

You make some very good, well thought out points. And believe me, after having lived in US for a quarter century, I could give a rat's ass for how I or Indians are perceived by NYT chutiyas. I am inured to that.

I am with RoniJi to the extent that this article in the NYT served no purpose other than a few mins time pass for those few whites who know about India and might have read it. And for those India haters, and there are many, this is cannon fodder.

But it does show the disgusting tendency among Indians to wash our dirty linen in the midst of foreigners. You dissected his piece very well. And every point you make is legitimate. But NYT is not the place for that. I would welcome an article in the NYT by someone who can talk about the US fraud in AfPak, and how it can make India's situation worse. I would welcome an article in the NYT by someone like him talk about US's diabolical alliance with TSP etc, and how that, coupled with an inpet govt in Delhi means TSP terrorism is being rewarded. A subject like this might have an impact because it impinges not only on India's faults, but puts a mirror in front of US. (Whether NYT will publish something like that is another story).

The problem with these kidns of articles by brown Sahibs is that it focuses on India's shit and absolves the whites of their crimes against India. To use a US analogy, this article is tantamount to say a white feminist in US whining about the lecherous, lewd lifestyle of many college women in an ultra right wing Christian conservative newspaper that at best has an apathetic attitude towards date rape, and at worst condones rapists by pointing out the faults of the victim. Or one of those African American Uncle Toms used by Fox news to talk about the dysfunctional nature of many inner city African families. Does pouring scorn over your own even if points out the truth serve any purpose when done so in front of those who have contempt for you in the first place? You get the drift.

I understand the frustration of this guy, as I do for many, many Indians like him. But in his zeal to login to "getmeoutofhere.com", he embraces the very nemesis of India who are no better towards Indian than MMS and other leadership he is lamenting. Thats the point I am making, and I assume RonyJi as well.

1. Who is more rabidly anti-India, New York Times or 99% of politicians and babus of India ? Who is doing India more harm ?

2. Who is more rabidly anti-India, New York times or 80% of Indian population that only thinks of "me, myself and mine", and always conducts itself in a manner which symbolizes only disdain, contempt, dislike and yes, even hate, for its fellow Indian and the whole idea of Bharatiya nationhood and the Hindu religion ?

3. This writer is merely showing the mirror to all of us, and if we dont like it, yeah, let us go and 1) break the mirror,, 2) kill the person who is holding the mirror, in fact, behead him, slowly, Taliban style. Who do you think will benefit the most from denigrating and shooting this poor ******** ? People like you or me or all the anti-national bottom dwellers, pseduo-secular turds, casteist filth, regionalist filth, secessionist gutter dwellers, narrow minded cannot see "beyond their nose" bigots and "give me mine, by hook or by crook" crowd, that passes for 80% of the population of India.

I have got news for you. There is no such thing as foreign or Indian. There is only, right or wrong, fair or unfair, and guess what, TRUTH AND UNTRUTH. There is so little truth told in this world, from the begining of time, let us take it wherever we can find it. This fellow happened to tell the truth in New York Times. I, for one, will take the truth, if in the unlikely event or as an accident, it is told in the Klu Klux Klan Newspaper or even a Hitler Nazi Newspaper or even a Paki or Chinese Newspaper. I dont care a ****, what the medium is, I just want the F*****g truth, which I almost NEVER FIND IN INDIA THESE DAYS, either in the general populace or in the Indian media.

[paramu]

If you have a problem within your family, will you tell and discuss that in your own house or in your neighbour's house or in the public so that everybody knows the truth? Will you be happy if your kid tells the problem in your family to everyone because you have an honest kid?

There is a saying "don't wash your dirty linen in public". This doesn't mean that you should not wash, but don't display the dirt to public.

[member_23692]

If you have a problem within your family, will you tell and discuss that in your own house or in your neighbour's house or in the public so that everybody knows the truth? Will you be happy if your kid tells the problem in your family to everyone because you have an honest kid?

There is a saying "don't wash your dirty linen in public". This doesn't mean that you should not wash, but don't display the dirt to public.

It depends. If your family just had an occasional drunken party and beat each other up in a drunken brawl, maybe you would not air your dirty laundry in public. If there is a serious philosophical difference within the family and there is some merit on both sides, maybe, just maybe, you wouldnt make it public.

If on the other hand, family members are routinely beating up the physically weaker family members, or ganging up and abusing the few family members who were sane and carrying the entire family on their shoulders, or if they were routinely engaging in sexual molestation of their own family members or indulging in an orgy of cannibalism eating their own or engaging in incest on a regular basis against the wishes of the saner family members, you better make it public, if you happen to escape that house. If you dont, you are merely enabling the monsters.

Monsters everywhere need to be exposed, not swept under the rug. Thats what monsters count on. Emotionally blackmailing their own not to speak out. Monsters are neither Indian nor Hindus, they are just.....Monsters. You know what happens to Dracula, when sunlight is shone on him, dont you ? And until you expose him to sunshine, what havoc he causes under the protection of darkness.

[paramu]

Did you come to the assumption that what is happening in India is rape, sexual molestation, incest and cannibalism??????

[Karan M]

You are not getting the point. I would reply to NYT if they make false claims about Modi/India/etc etc.But i would not post a article in NYT showing how my country is corrupt, how the system is inefficient etc etc.

So that's you. On the other hand, somebody may do exactly the opposite in the hope that it may jolt India's apathetic govt into taking a stand. As things stand, the Indian media is lock stock and barrel complicit with the govt anyhows in several ways, so your methods may be ineffective. Eitherways, what you choose to do is up to you, but you cannot decide what others do and don't in terms of their methods.

'Brown newspapers' are know for their self flagellation and there are many critical articles about governance in Indian media. Not sure what you are implying here.

What I am implying is fairly straightforward, that given the language he used he would not be allowed to carry that article in an equally mainstream paper here. Cherrypicking one or two sentences of mine without getting the context won't help you much.

And whats the point of Indian whining about Indian problems in a American newspaper which majority of Indians don't read ? And i don't see a difference between writing in a US newspaper and a Paki one. The former display contempt and the latter display hatred for India.

What is the point of whining anywhere, as you put it? And you may not see a difference, but others do. And therein lies the point. The world is bigger than you, there are many other Indians apart from you, and they will do what they think is within the bounds of civility. What you are doing is classic projection. You have arbitrarily decided what is good and what is not, and are hence complaining about anyone who does not think as you do even when they pen their thoughts. Should they have sought your permission even if they are not being malicious?

Your issue is not that whether what he wrote is right or wrong. Your issue is whether "negative stereotypes about India will get reinforced in American minds".

Absolutely. American newspaper is not the place to whine about wrongs about India. Rights are fine.

Which attitude makes little sense, and is entirely driven by your thoughts about what is right or wrong. Like it or not, your viewpoint is yours but may not necessarily be that of others.

Your priorities are out of whack. You should be more concerned about whether what he wrote is the truth. Not whether Indians abroad are sneered at by the Goras. Guess what they do and will continue to do so until and unless India advances to the point that all the folks return or India itself climbs the stakes.

There are (media) places to put your opinions and there are (media) places to keep your mouth shut. I don't see any value other than negative one where Indians self flagellate in NY times/Al zazeera/BBC/Dawn etc etc .

Your choice of media may not agree with that of others. With the current administration anything overtly critical of the powerful would probably be published abroad anyhow.

Pretending that things are fine does nobody any good.

I guss whining and self flagellating in front of Goras makes lot of good.

His choice to make. He is describing his life, his personal choices and how he perceives things. Why should it bother you?
Do you consider yourself responsible for the system he describing? Did you set it up? Are you part of the corrupt or the senile he referenced? No, right.
And your complaining here is doing any good? Can you write an article to NYTimes rebutting what he said? As versus wasting time here.

Dozens ?? I can count on my fingers the number of mainland chinese who self flagellate in the opinion pages of NY times like some Indians do. Even for those minority, they have to endure hate mail from the hundreds of mainland chinese in sina weibo accusing him/her of being a "traitor" .

Indians get to write in NYTimes because they write well in English - content being a different matter. And where did I say hundreds write in NYTimes? I wrote hundreds write in many fora, expat boards etc - cribbing the same way. And if you think that they endure hate main from state sponsored 50 centers, that is a good thing, that's your choice to make. You can go ahead and send hate mail to the author for that piece if you wish, I consider it a waste of time.

And next, you say I can count on my fingers the number of mainland chinese who self flagellate in the opinion pages of NY times like some Indians do - so only some Chinese self flagellate, and only some Indians do so. That's what you wrote. In other words the claim that this is a uniquely disgusting Indian trait is misplaced.

One more thing, you cannot police the world or the thoughts of everyone else. Try it as you wish, but its a pyrrhic exercise. Have them empathise with you.. thats an entirely different game.

how exactly will you handle the far more trenchant comments that come from videsis who do visit India & reply in a coherent manner? Or dismiss all that as whining? Neither works.

A videshi giving his trenchant comments after visiting India is different from a self flagellating Indian giving his trenchant comments on India in a videshi paper.

What rubbish is this? So a "vides"i can call Indian issues out in "videsi" papers, but an Indian must never ever call anything out in a videsi paper. If this is not a weird form of racism, what else is?

If you actually wish to defend India, first try and stop judging everyone else through the prism of your own beliefs and give them a chance. Second, accept their thoughts and how they express them as long as they are not malicious.

Passing judgement on them as whining, self flagellation etc just comes across as plainly insecure. If you are truly confident about India, such minor reports wouldn't matter a whit.

[Karan M]

If you have a problem within your family, will you tell and discuss that in your own house or in your neighbour's house or in the public so that everybody knows the truth? Will you be happy if your kid tells the problem in your family to everyone because you have an honest kid?

There is a saying "don't wash your dirty linen in public". This doesn't mean that you should not wash, but don't display the dirt to public.

All that works only as long as the problems get sorted out in the family. If the stuff does not get sorted out, then its a known fact to the world.

All this videsi can do this but Indians cant, that some hyper patriots on this board seem to be pontificating about to the rest of us, doesn't really fly.

Guess what, we have been writing to NYT, Ekhanomist etc from ages about their biased coverage, we do our best to tell everyone how things are etc on the other side as well - but that does not mean that you can cover up everything or that you even should. Leaving the subjective stuff out (what is right or wrong etc per ones own standards), its simply not effective and smacks of the crude censorship the Chinese do, with their horde of paid media trolls swarming any news site remotely critical of China.

That is not how adults debate, that is not how you can convince others as well. So, create a Great Wall of India - only positive news out, bad news in? No pictures of children defecating beside the railway track (even if its the truth), only pictures of ISRO? You think this sort of stuff will work. Good luck.

India's policy btw is satyemeva jayate. Truth alone triumphs. In contrast, despite having this policy, for many many years, we have pretended that no problems exist. Now that Indians themselves are getting frustrated and speaking out, they have to seek certificates of what they must and should not do, even if they are not malicious, from other folks. That's just patent rubbish IMHO.

All you will do is alienate the very folks you need to fight a PR war.

[Karan M]

^^Shukla should pontificate after India pulls off a US like raid to send Hafiz Saeed and DI to meet their 72. The US engagement with pakistan is "Mooh me Raam, Bagal me Churi" type. We either have no churi or have no intention of using it.

Agree. After his trips to Pak, he seems to think there is some mystical group there which can be convinced to talky talk and make things better.. but no clear idea as usual.

[member_23692]

Did you come to the assumption that what is happening in India is rape, sexual molestation, incest and cannibalism??????

It is not an assumption, it is a fact. This forum's posters overwhelmingly complain about exactly this post after post, in thread after thread.

A patriot, a true nationalist, a basic normal honest and non corrupt person gets raped, molested, cannibalized and gets screwed by his/her own, every minute of every day of every week of every month of every year, day after day, week after week, year after year.............it never stops !

[Rony]

On the other hand, somebody may do exactly the opposite in the hope that it may jolt India's apathetic govt into taking a stand. As things stand, the Indian media is lock stock and barrel complicit with the govt ..

So in order to jolt India's apathetic govt, one needs to self flagellate and whine before the gora. Isn't it what Aroy does ?

What I am implying is fairly straightforward, that given the language he used he would not be allowed to carry that article in an equally mainstream paper here.

That is factually incorrect.Be it as it may, i don't see the logic of cursing Indian govt "with the language he uses" in a non-Indian newspaper because mainstream Indian paper does not carry it.

What is the point of whining anywhere, as you put it? Would you rather he waved the flag, bared his chest and throatily expressed his patriotism instead, which you would be the judge of, given your comments on what is kosher and what is not? And you may not see a difference, but others do. And therein lies the point. The world is bigger than you, there are many other Indians apart from you, and they will do what they think is within the bounds of civility. What you are doing is classic projection. You have arbitrarily decided what is good and what is not, and are hence complaining about anyone who does not think as you do even when they pen their thoughts. Should they have sought your permission?

All this and i still did not get answer to my basic question on what is the point of self flagellating and whining in a American newspaper about Indian problems.

Which attitude makes little sense, and is entirely driven by your thoughts about what is right or wrong. Like it or not, you don't define India.

No one said i define India.

His choice to make. He is describing his life, his personal choices and how he perceives things. Why should it bother you?

What BS. In the same vein, i am putting out my opinion on him and his attitude to self flagellate and whine in front of goras.Why should it bother you ?

And next, you say I can count on my fingers the number of mainland chinese who self flagellate in the opinion pages of NY times like some Indians do - so only some Chinese self flagellate, and only some Indians do so. That's what you wrote. In other words the claim that this is a uniquely disgusting Indian trait is misplaced.

"Some Indians do" as in not all but significant some . "Can count on my fingers" as in less than ten. You can crib on how i write but i hope you understand what i am trying to say. "Some" Indians have this disgusting habit to self flagellate and whine about negative things about India in front of goras and i don't see this that often from chinese.

What rubbish is this? So a "vides"i can call Indian issues out in "videsi" papers, but an Indian must never ever call anything out in a videsi paper. If this is not a weird form of racism, what else is?

Did you even read what i wrote. A gora pontificating in a Indian newspaper about Indias problems is different from a desi whining and self flagellating about India's problems in a NYT/BBC etc. In the first case, we need to reverse the gaze and show the gora a mirror.In the second case, there is no pointing in supporting such self flagellation .This stand of mine appears as racism to you ? lol

[Karan M]

So in order to jolt India's apathetic govt, one needs to self flagellate and whine before the gora. Isn't it what Aroy does ?

Au contraire, ARoy does not attempt to jolt India's govt, she writes rubbish and cooked up facts and is a plain and simple anarchist. Theres a difference.

What I am implying is fairly straightforward, that given the language he used he would not be allowed to carry that article in an equally mainstream paper here.

That is factually incorrect.Be it as it may, i don't see the logic of cursing Indian govt "with the language he uses" in a non-Indian newspaper because mainstream Indian paper does not carry it.

How is that factually incorrect? Please provide me the facts - namely, tell me when you manage to get a mainstream Indian newspaper to write about MMS being senile or implying that he is, and also taking potshots at SG/RG.

I fear that you have little to no idea about how widespread self censorship is in the Indian media. Books don't get published if you take a stand critical of current policies

Next, you may not see the logic, but I do and he did. What makes your opinion more accurate than his or mine?

What is the point of whining anywhere, as you put it? Would you rather he waved the flag, bared his chest and throatily expressed his patriotism instead, which you would be the judge of, given your comments on what is kosher and what is not? And you may not see a difference, but others do. And therein lies the point. The world is bigger than you, there are many other Indians apart from you, and they will do what they think is within the bounds of civility. What you are doing is classic projection. You have arbitrarily decided what is good and what is not, and are hence complaining about anyone who does not think as you do even when they pen their thoughts. Should they have sought your permission?

All this and i still did not get answer to my basic question on what is the point of self flagellating and whining in a American newspaper about Indian problems.

You got the answer, you choose not to see it. You asked a rhetorical question "What is the point of.." and got an answer pointing out that the point lies in the eye of the beholder. He wanted to write, so he did.

What makes you the judge and jury on deciding he doesn't have a point but you do?

Which attitude makes little sense, and is entirely driven by your thoughts about what is right or wrong. Like it or not, you don't define India.

No one said i define India.

But you are acting as you do. You are being self righteous, judgemental and stating that people should NOT do x, they should NOT do y. They should ONLY do z. If you don't define India, then how is it that your opinion is to be taken as fact?

His choice to make. He is describing his life, his personal choices and how he perceives things. Why should it bother you?

What BS. In the same vein, i am putting out my opinion on him and his attitude to self flagellate and whine in front of goras.Why should it bother you ?

Sorry, but his opinion and his desire to merely express is opinion is BS. But on the other hand, you attacking him for doing so is not BS?

Lets see, you have don't really care about changing the actual situation that made this guy vent, but all that bothers you is your perception about goras views of what he wrote, and how desis should not even dare to talk anything about India in front of goras. And you claim you don't define India, yet are sitting in judgement of exactly how a fellow Indian should behave. Care to see the multiple strands of illogic implicit in your argument?

This when you are not part of the solution, don't have a constructive critique and are complaining about how some Indian dares to express his personal life (didn't describe you anywhere did he, so why bother?) in a foreign newspaper.

Why this insecurity my friend? Why this bother about what goras think, that too about an arbit, random piece? If you were truly so confident about India (and you are and and you should be), you wouldn't and shouldn't give a darn about what he wrote when its so marginal. Or, if you felt what he wrote was wrong, you would point out exactly what.

No - you have done neither, instead you are sitting and whining about how somebody else was whining. And in the process you dub other Indians as disgusting for having this habit apparently.. its just plain circular, is what it is..

And next, you say I can count on my fingers the number of mainland chinese who self flagellate in the opinion pages of NY times like some Indians do - so only some Chinese self flagellate, and only some Indians do so. That's what you wrote. In other words the claim that this is a uniquely disgusting Indian trait is misplaced.

"Some Indians do" as in not all but significant some . "Can count on my fingers" as in less than ten. You can crib on how i write but i hope you understand what i am trying to say. "Some" Indians have this disgusting habit to self flagellate and whine about negative things about India in front of goras and i don't see this that often from chinese.

If you don't see this often from Chinese, then all I can say is you haven't met enough Chinese who are not from mainland China. They crib like blazes and continue to crib. Its a fact about many democratic societies. What I was referring to were many expat Chinese also including those from the mainland, who go for education abroad, return and then find how bad the situation is and openly discuss it.

As matter of fact, its a good thing that more Indians are able to talk what they wish, because that means the power of the state to forcefully suppress opinion is declining, and they will be judged on positive outcomes not airy fairy talk, misusing our patriotism for their own ends.

As matter of fact, I think its a good thing that we can speak our mind (gora be in front or back or wherever, be darned). In fact, I did meet a gora sometime back who noted he felt stifled in China, because he could neither speak his mind nor talk shop about local conditions, given how the mainland suppresses frank talk. In contrast, he likes India and has even hired an Indian for one of the most senior roles.

Net, not all goras are out to attack India and nor is free speech necessarily evil. Its all about intent. In this case, I see nothing from this author that he has any malicious intent towards India.

Yet, his opinion about his own personal life, about his social milieu, about what he perceives from his point of view, grates on you. Even though you don't belong to or own or are responsible for any of the issues he describes.

Plus you are applying some sort of blanket rule about goras, gora media, india, indian media and so forth, which neither makes sense and nor is it enforceable. All you will do is make all sane Indian nationalists look bad and as speech suppressing fanatics, when that's hardly what you'd wish to portray.

What rubbish is this? So a "vides"i can call Indian issues out in "videsi" papers, but an Indian must never ever call anything out in a videsi paper. If this is not a weird form of racism, what else is?

Did you even read what i wrote. A gora pontificating in a Indian newspaper about Indias problems is different from a desi whining and self flagellating about India's problems in a NYT/BBC etc. In the first case, we need to reverse the gaze and show the gora a mirror.In the second case, there is no pointing in supporting such self flagellation .This stand of mine appears as racism to you ? lol

I did read what you wrote and yes, it is pretty weird. An Indian cannot write in papers abroad, but a gora can. Oh wait, the Indian can write only if he writes about India in a positive light. But the gora can write bad things about India that's fine. Meanwhile, all this is part of some plan wherein the Indians can show the gora a mirror and second, will show a stiff upper lip and never admit to anything bad.

Do you even understand how pointless and implausible your method is?? So Indians will magically be allowed to write in papers abroad - and ONLY if they write positive stuff. And if they don't do this, guess who writes? The gora. So you want goras to crap all over us.. whereas Indians lose the opportunity to present a more nuanced view of India, good and bad included, which would have meant they retained credibility.

Yes, you are being pretty racist here because you have divided the world into "us" versus "them" and automatically ascribe roles to both sides. Goras versus us, and on top of it, you are shackling Indian arms by insisting that only some kinds of writing should be allowed abroad, the rest won't be. Few if any sane authors or fellow Indians are going to accept your restrictions my friend, like it or not.

Instead, you should be insisting that more Indians write in papers abroad, and write positive news NOT only negative news. Journalism by its very basis, will include both "+" and "-". The aim should be to have as much "+" as possible, but the negative will still be there. Saying show them a mirror, show them this, all sounds well and jingoistic, but in reality, it will backfire and just show us to be insecure dolts.

The US has amongst the highest rates of crime in the world. It has drug issues. It is hated by many for its military policies. Yet the world flocks to its shores. Food for thought.

[Rony]

Au contraire, ARoy does not attempt to jolt India's govt, she writes rubbish and cooked up facts and is a plain and simple anarchist. Theres a difference.

And this article "attempts to jolt India's govt" ? There are many within India itself who think Aroy is attempting to jolt India's govt. Just because you understand the difference between the two, does not mean the average reader of nyt does as well.

How is that factually incorrect? Please provide me the facts - namely, tell me when you manage to get a mainstream Indian newspaper to write about MMS being senile or implying that he is, and also taking potshots at SG/RG.

Define mainstream Indian news paper first ? Again my point stands. Because you think that "equivalent of nyc" does not publish what you think is potshots against mms, that justifies whining in nyc ?

Next, you may not see the logic, but I do and he did.

So now you can read his mind too ?

You got the answer, you choose not to see it. You asked a rhetorical question "What is the point of.." and got an answer pointing out that the point lies in the eye of the beholder. He wanted to write, so he did.What makes you the judge and jury on deciding he doesn't have a point but you do?

If the point lies in the eye of the beholder why are you doing a pointless argument with me on his behalf ?

But you are acting as you do. You are being self righteous, judgemental and stating that people should NOT do x, they should NOT do y.

Thats exactly how you are acting as well. So how is my voicing of my opinions different from yours ?

Lets see, you have nothing worthwhile to contribute in terms of changing the actual situation that made this guy vent, but all that bothers you is your perception about goras and how desis should not even dare to talk anything about India in front of goras.

Correction. I prefer desis not talking anything negative about India or whining or self flagellating in front of goras.Why is that a problem for you ?

What I was referring to were many expat Chinese who go for education abroad, return and then find how bad the situation is and openly discuss it.

So the expat chinese study abroad, return home, find the situation bad and openly discuss with whom ? With the Americans in China ? Yeah right ..

I did read what you wrote and yes, it is pretty weird. An Indian cannot write in papers abroad, but a gora can. Oh wait, the Indian can write only if he writes about India in a positive light. But the gora can write bad things about India that's fine.

So just because a gora can write bad things about India, you want even Indians to write bad things about India ? and anyone who oppose this is a racist ! lol

Yes, you are being pretty racist here because you have divided the world into "us" versus "them"

The world "is" us versus them. Thats how others especially your nyt pals see us and we should see them as well in the same manner.

Saying show them a mirror, show them this, all sounds well and jingoistic, but in reality, it will backfire and just show us to be insecure dolts.

Its better if the world see us as insecure dolts who don't appreciate others interfering in our business rather than self flagellating people who always whine about their problems in foreign media.

The US has amongst the highest rates of crime in the world. It has drug issues. It is hated by many for its military policies. Yet the world flocks to its shores. Food for thought.

Nothing to think about there. People go to US because it has better standard of living along with a compatible language. Everything else is secondary. If we assume that the dollar value goes below the rupee, how many Indians you think will flock to US ?

[Vayutuvan]

Interesting duel going on there - just want to inject a small anecdotal observation of mine - Susan A Roy has quite an uncritical following in The US - especially the left leaning outlets like NPR. That in itself is not a problem. But if her opinions - motivated either because of a hankering for personal glory or being used knowingly or unknowingly as a tool - are projected to represent the wider Indian public and then are used in turn as a stick to beat India, then it becomes a nuisense that has to be dalt with.

[member_23692]

Interesting duel going on there - just want to inject a small anecdotal observation of mine - Susan A Roy has quite an uncritical following in The US - especially the left leaning outlets like NPR. That in itself is not a problem. But if her opinions - motivated either because of a hankering for personal glory or being used knowingly or unknowingly as a tool - are projected to represent the wider Indian public and then are used in turn as a stick to beat India, then it becomes a nuisense that has to be dalt with.

This is not directed at you, but I have simply copied your post as a quote because you mention Susan Roy.

If someone, anyone, like Susan Roy express patently biased and purveys decidedly anti-India and anti-national views for her own personal benefit in monies and status, as proven by the entirety of her work and personality, then she can be and should be open to criticism.

But to paint this guy Sanghvi or anyone else with the same brush without any other evidence of him being a traitor or a self serving individual is frankly ridiculous. The operative point here is that Susan A Roy spreads deliberate falsehoods, and this guy Sanghvi has spoken the truth. And that makes all the difference.........and that makes all the difference......

[Rony]

The operative point here is that Susan A Roy spreads deliberate falsehoods, and this guy Sanghvi has spoken the truth. And that makes all the difference.........and that makes all the difference......

The operative point is what is "truth" is subjective and varies from ones perspective. Aroy is falsehood for us but for countless others both in India and West, she is speaking the "truth". Once we accept the premise that our washing dirty linen in nyt/bbc/dawn/aljazeera is ok as long as what we consider is "truth" is published, then we are in slippery slope since for every one person who publishes our "truth", there are hundred who are publishing the western/paki version of the "truth". If the argument is since there are already hundred people peddling the western/paki version of "truth" and hence we need to have "our version of truth" as well, thats a different matter and i agree that we have no choice and we need to jump into the fray and put our perspective as well.But this will only reinforces my original comment that Indians wash their dirty linen in public lot more than say Chinese (of course the main culprits here are Aroy and other psudo-liberal and commie types who petition their maibaap in us/uk and penn a article in nyc/bbc against nationalist forces at the drop of a hat).

[member_23692]

The operative point here is that Susan A Roy spreads deliberate falsehoods, and this guy Sanghvi has spoken the truth. And that makes all the difference.........and that makes all the difference......

The operative point is what is "truth" is subjective and varies from ones perspective. Aroy is falsehood for us but for countless others both in India and West, she is speaking the "truth". Once we accept the premise that our washing dirty linen in nyt/bbc/dawn/aljazeera is ok as long as what we consider is "truth" is published, then we are in slippery slope since for every one person who publishes our "truth", there are hundred who are publishing the western/paki version of the "truth". If the argument is since there are already hundred people peddling the western/paki version of "truth" and hence we need to have "our version of truth" as well, thats a different matter and i agree that we have no choice and we need to jump into the fray and put our perspective as well.But this will only reinforces my original comment that Indians wash their dirty linen in public lot more than say Chinese (of course the main culprits here are Aroy and other psudo-liberal and commie types who petition their maibaap in us/uk and penn a article in nyc/bbc against nationalist forces at the drop of a hat).

When we make idiotic statements like "truth is subjective", we play right in the hands of criminals, psychopaths, pathologically corrupt and power and money hungry cannibals. We put these low lives on the same plane as say a Vivekanand or a Bhagat Singh or a Shivaji. Every common thief claims to be a Shivaji.

Therefore, a common thief's truth is just as much a truth as Shivaji's truth. And Arundhati Roy's truth is just as much of a truth as this guy Sanghvi's and Mao's truth is just as much of a truth as Gandhi's and Hitler's truth is just as much of a truth as Einstein's. And the low life Islamist's truth is just as much of a truth as that of a Dharmic's. So when an Islamist lies through his teeth, indulges in Taquiyya, it is of course, truth as he sees it, and is therefore, truth. Paki is as much a victim of terrorism as anyone else is also a truth. India is helping the insurgents in Balochistan is also the truth. After all, "truth" is in the mind of the "beholder".

So let me understand what you are saying.

Because "truth is subjective", therefore, Indians should not publish anything critical of their system of governance in "foreign" media outlets

[CRamS]

KaranJi/RsangamJi/RonyJi,

I think we are beating to death, a piece of whining crap written by some 2-bit frustrated Indian dude in a gora newspaper known for its contempt for India.

Having said that KaranJi, I must dispute 2 points you make:

1. No doubt in the disgusting Indian media, you can't write anything critical about MMS or Sonia/RG. Its a shameless suck up, especially when you compare with the daily demonizing of Modi. That said, I did not see his piece is only being critical of the ruling family which he can't do for sure in India. From his tone, he appears to me like a Pankaj Misra, ARoy type dissing India in front of his gora masters who I can imagine saying "good job my boy". Especially his comment about "nothing original", everything copied from west is a give away. If he said something to the effect of, India has many cultural and artistic traditions from its Hindu civilizational roots, but "secularism" has stifled that, I wouldn't have suspected his intentions.

2. On chinese. If Indians have even a fraction of the nationalism Chinese had, we would be better off. How many article have you seen by a Han Chinese in a gora newspaper talking human rights of Tibetean people. Show me. In fact, mention Dalai Lama, and they will bristle in anger. Of course, India is not China with its million mutinies, the Chinese are 90+% Han.

And some thoughts on this Ajai Shukla's nonsense about "many Pakistans". Its another one of these useless arguments for India's in action ("Pak is also a victim of terror", "terrorism threatens Pak", "civilan Vs military", "nuke flashpoint" being other useless cliches). First, TSP is not going to respond to any good intention from India. They want India period. And TSP wants a fight, not "piss", for them "piss process" is a strategy towards an end. And we have beaten to death this comparison with US. US pummels TSP into submission. US then also offers carrots because it needs TSP for a host of reasons, most of for equal equal with India. India has zero leverage over TSP. At least TSP has some leverage over India with its pigLeTs. What does India have to deal with the "many Pakistans"?