Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

putnanja
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby putnanja » 11 Nov 2013 07:06

sudarshan wrote:...

Is the seven-day week an Indian concept, and has it been carried over for so many thousand years? That's what that particular passage in your book seemed to imply. If so, was there no "reset" of the week when the yugas changed (Treta to Dwapara to Kali)?

....


As far as I remember, in Ramayana and Mahabharatha, there is no mention of days of the week. They do mention the day of the month(the tithi - krishna paksha/shukla paksha and the actual day like panchami, sapthami etc, but not week day).

I remember reading somewhere that around Chandragupta Maurya's time, it was a six day week, and then later was changed to seven day week. Not very sure about it though.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 11 Nov 2013 07:15

sudarshan wrote:It's actually not about an incident in the Ramayana. It's about your statement in the draft book about some event (don't want to reveal details when the book is not even out) happening on a Thursday, and your corroboration of that fact using Voyager.

I was under the impression that the seven-day week was traced back to the Biblical concept of God creating the universe for six days and taking a break on the seventh day. The Jewish sabbath day is on Saturday, the Christian one on Sunday.

Is the seven-day week an Indian concept, and has it been carried over for so many thousand years? That's what that particular passage in your book seemed to imply. If so, was there no "reset" of the week when the yugas changed (Treta to Dwapara to Kali)?

Let's stay away from the issue of 'reset' of the week with Yuga change, since we have so many unknowns with the whole Yuga theory (its beginning, duration, change from one to next, cyclical nature of them, ascending and descending, Daaivi va. manushi years, etc.)
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If you try to search for nomenclature (or origin of 7 week unit - of time measurement), very soon, we run into circles, but more important, guesses and opinions (Babylonians, Greeks)...various origins postulated but not a shred of evidence.

Dr. P V Vartak had conjectured that 7 day concept being Indian, however his evidence remains limited. He also made a case for how the days were named and conjectured Indian origin for it. In this case there was no evidence whatsoever and all was on shaky ground. We must appreciate that at least he was willing to go where no one else had dare to go before.

To my amazement, I recently realized that Aryabhatt in his Aryabhatia has given perfect explanation as to the logic for nomenclature of the 7 days of the week (I will post it here soon.. need to add figures and stuff).

Of course, some here may already know about it and many others (outside BRF) may jump and state how they knew this all along. What I am not sure is why it never made to Wikipedia or other such sites.

In brief...as far as written (and logical, consistent, sensible) evidence goes, Aryabhatia of Aryabhatta is the first instance (that I know of ) where clear info is provided. Of course Aryabhatta is not claiming this to be his invention and NO, he is not attributing it to Babylonians or Greeks (for Macaulyte educated crowd).

So, as of Nov 2013, while all public domain sites (Wikipedia and such) are confused, unclear and vague on the rationale or origin of 7 day week (and especially their nomenclature.. each day of the week), Aryabhatia states it in one or two verses in very elegant fashion.

will post the info soon....

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 11 Nov 2013 08:47

Looking forward to that info, Nilesh ji.

As to how the weekdays are named. It seems consistent with the Navagrahas, minus Rahu and Ketu. So Sunday is for the sun, Monday for the moon, and so on, and the order is also the same as the order of planets in the Navagrahas-2.

This is not just in Sanskrit or Indian languages, but also in French (except for Sunday - "Dimanche" - which apparently comes from Latin for "Day of God," i.e., the "Christian Sabbath day" that I mentioned above). In French, the weekdays are:

Lundi - for Lune, moon
Mardi - for Mars
Mercredi - for Mercury
Jeudi - for Jupiter
Vendredi - for Venus
Samedi - for Saturn

This is the same order as the planets in the Navagrahas (-2 & also an additional -1 for Sunday). The weekdays in English come from the names of Norse gods/goddesses, except for Sunday, Monday, and Saturday. So Tuesday is "Tiw's day," for Tyr, the god of single combat; Wednesday is for Woden, Thursday is for Thor, Friday is for Freya (or Frigga - I never can tell the difference between the two). But the interesting thing is, Tyr is identified with Mars, Woden with Mercury, Thor with Jupiter, and Freya with Venus. This is all per Wikipedia. So once again - Navagrahas-2.

There could well be an Indic origin to this seven-day week, which was carried over into the Abrahamic tale of Genesis.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby vishvak » 11 Nov 2013 18:40

I have read earlier 7 vaar of week explained in Aryabhattia written/compiled by Aryabhatta. Looking forward to it and I do think that it is important to remember days in way suitable for Indic understanding. I think it begins with Sun as first day(raveevaar) of the week(saptaah), then mathematically explains guruwaar, mangalwaar, shukrawaar, then other days like somwaar, budhwaar, shanivaar- not sure of sequence here but the explanation is not linear as the days.

Just avoid mistake of pruthvi in this as it is wholly mathematical and explicitly mentions-if I am not mistaken- that the earth is point of reference from where this observations are made - which is significance of this and an implicit credit to earthlings!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 12 Nov 2013 09:54

Aryabhatia reference (Image 1) and explanation by Suhas Gurjar (Image 2): Explanation/logic/rationale for nomenclature - Days of the week. (Please, someone take photoshots of Wikipedia pages today related to nomenclature/days of the week). Soon someone in west will start claiming that this was of Babylonian or greek origin.....

Well, it could be. The point is, as far as written/historical evidence is concerned, Aryabhatia reference is the verifiable (and consistent, logical, rational explanation) ....most ancient (as of now) reference available as it relates to nomenclature of the days.

If it was known in other cultures (and verifiable), it would have shown up on Wikipedia.

Image

Image

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One of the Wikipedia links....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_t ... cite_ref-1

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 13 Nov 2013 03:16

Nilesh ji, thanks. Could somebody do the honors and briefly translate the verse, for the sake of guys like me who aren't very proficient in Sanskrit?

It seems, in Gurjar's table, the planets are arranged in the first column in the order of descending periods around the earth (assuming a geocentric reference). So Shani (30 years) is first, followed by Guru (12 years), Mangal (1.6 years?), Surya (1 year), Shukra (220 days), Budha (88 days), and Chandra (28 days). What is the significance of the highlighted number 6 in the table entries? Seems like the count begins with 6 and goes to 24, then cycles back from 1 to 24?

Pretty confusing if one isn't able to follow the text in the verse very well. I just see a lot of instances of the word "shigram" and a couple of "bhavanti"s :). Somebody please help out?

Also, according to the table, it seems Shanivar (Saturday) is the first day of the week?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 13 Nov 2013 03:21

This also implies a lack of knowledge of Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. Looks like it's the seven visible planets which are represented in the table (counting Sun and Moon as planets).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 13 Nov 2013 03:33

And it also seems like three columns are missing from the table at the end (where it says "Shukravar")? So 24 columns overall in the table? Just trying to figure this out.

Seems like the day begins at the 6th hour (6:00 AM?), and when it gets to the 6th hour on the next day, it's associated with a different planet?

Or maybe each hour of the day belongs to a different planet, and whichever planet "owns" the 6th hour - the day is named after that planet?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 13 Nov 2013 04:47

^^Sudarshan ji,

I posted the above and due to other circumstances, could not post the explanation.

The verse (loose translation) states that 'Days of the week are named based on ...(1) first, arranging the planets (includes sun, moon) in the order of their relative motion (with respect to earth.. as seen from earth) from slow to fast (first column) and then (2) counting 24 hours in a day(this is nowhere stated in the verse)...a planet is assigned to each hour of 24 hours (of the day), and the planet corresponding to the time of Sunrise (beginning of day) is used to assign the name of that day.

What Gurjar has shown for 6 AM would work for any other time of the day also. It just that he picked up 6 !M (in illustration) to align with ~ sunrise time.
So let's say,...we begin with 6 AM -with Saturn (and thus Saturday)...then 7 AM would be Jupiter, 8 AM would be Mars and so on. On the next day at 6 AM , planet corresponding to sunrise (or 6 AM) would be Sun and thus next day would be SUNDAYand so on.

Same thing would apply to Friday and if one completes the table.. we would be back to 6 AM (next day) that would correspond with Saturn.

This long logic is captured by the word 'Chaturtha' in the Aryabhatia verse. i.e. to say, if you start with Saturn, next day would be day corresponding to planet, 4 places from Saturn (Sunday) and next after would be 4 places from Sun which would be Mooon (Monday) etc.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 13 Nov 2013 04:51

^^ correct. According to the table 'Saturday is the first day of the sequence (week?). Would be interesting to check against other (if existing) references of antiquity (around the world).

I know that in Nepal, Saturday is a weekly holiday. Not sure of the origin of it...but interesting in the context of Saturday being the first day per Arybhatia.

Friday - Islam, Saturday/Sabath - Judaism, and Sunday - Christianity are well known.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 13 Nov 2013 07:02

Oo, looks like I got most of it just from examining the table :).

Yes, I now see that you could assign the "start" of the day to any time, like say 6:00 AM. Makes no difference. Interesting logic, and also intuitive, once you grasp the "one hour per planet." I was so close....

Wonder how this gels with the concepts of "Rahu kala," "Yama ganda," etc. Rahu kala goes by 1/8th of the interval between sunrise and sunset. The concept of "yamam" in TN (don't know if this is also followed in other parts of India) is actually 1/16th of a day, or 1.5 hours per yamam. Close to the equator, Rahu kala would thus correspond to one yamam per day (since days and nights are roughly equal near the equator).

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby johneeG » 13 Nov 2013 14:11

Also notice that, seven day week is a Hindu concept, starting from Sunday(Adivara) and ending on the seventh day Saturday(Shanivara).

Hindu concept of seven day week is much older and has other associated astronomical issues. In Judaism, seven day week is taken for granted without any introspection on it. There is no development of ideas or background on the issue, which indicates that this concept was borrowed, ready-made, from another culture(most probably Hindus).

Judaism is not the only culture to do so. Other cultures have also done this. All of them have seven day week. But none of these cultures are old. And none of them have any associated astronomy with it to decide why it should be seven days and which day corresponds to which planet(or deity).

In Hinduism, seven day week is associated with lot of astronomy. Even the modern-day 'Hour' is derived from 'Hora' of Hinduism.

Also, the sanskrit word for a week is Saptah.
Saptah->Haptah(Persian)->Haftah->Afta(Urdu)

In sanskrit, Sapta means seven.

It is possible that Shabat(Sabbath) is a corruption of some derivative of Sapta.


Link to post

Bhaskaracharya's Law of Gravity

Did you know that the famous Hindu astronomer, Bhaskaracharya in his Surya Siddhanta wrote:

"Objects fall on the earth due to a force of attraction by the earth. Therefore, the earth, planets, constellations, moon and sun are held in orbit due to this attraction."

It was not until 1687, 1200 years later did Issac Newton "rediscover" the Law of Gravity.

In Surya Siddhanta, dated 400-500 AD, the ancient Hindu astronomer Bhaskaracharya states,

"Objects fall on the earth due to a force of attraction by the earth. Therefore, the earth, planets, constellations, moon, and sun are held in orbit due to this force."

Approximately 1200 years later (1687 AD), Sir Isaac Newton rediscovered this phenomenon and called it the Law of Gravity.


Link

The sanskrit word 'graha' is generally translated as 'planets', in astronomical context. This is a mistake, IMHO. The actual meaning of 'graha' is 'grasping'. So, in astronomical context, the word 'graha' should mean 'a body that exerts attractive force on earth'.

9 Grahas are listed by Indians:
1) Sun (Ravi/Aditya)
2) Moon (Soma/Chandra)
3) Mars (Mangal)
4) Mercury (Budha)
5) Jupiter (Guru/Brihaspati)
6) Venus (Shukra)
7) Saturn (Shani)
8 ) Rahu
9) Ketu

Rahu and Ketu are called chaya(shadow) graha(bodies exerting attractive force on earth). They are merely shadow bodies and therefore, the actual grahas are only 7. These 7 grahas are used to denote the 7 weekdays.
1) Sun (Ravi/Aditya) - Sunday (In Indian astrology, Sun is considered the King of the grahas).
2) Moon (Soma/Chandra) - Moonday or Monday ( In Indian astrology, Moon is considered a minister or a weak king of the grahas. Moon is called Soma. 'Soma' also means elixir. Essentially, Moon is considered the reason for the formation of medicinal
3) Mars (Mangal) - Tuesday (in Latin, it is called dies of Mars i.e. day of Mars. Mars is a god of war according to the romans. The etymology of Tuesday comes from 'Tiw's day' Tiw is a god of war just like Mars. In fact, one could say that Tiw is another avatar of Mars. But, why is Mars associated with wars? In Indian astrology/jyothishya, there is a dosha called Mangala. People with this dosha are called Mangliks. If an unmarried person has a mangala dosha, then he/she should marry a person with the same dosha. The idea is that a person with mangala dosha(Mars affliction) will be aggressive and passionate. It is better if such a person marries another aggressive and passionate person. So, in Indian astrology, Mars symbolizes aggression and passion, not necessarily war. In Japanese, Tuesday is called fire day because Mars is called fire star.)
4) Mercury (Budha) - Wednesday (in Latin, it is called dies of Mercury i.e. day of Mercury. The etymology of Wednesday comes from Woden's day. Woden is interpreted as the germanic mercury god.)
5) Jupiter (Guru/Brihaspati) - Thursday (in Latin, it is Jupiter's day. The etymology of Thursday is 'Thor's day'. Thor is a germanic god who weilds a mighty hammer.)
6) Venus (Shukra) - Friday (in Latin, it is dies of veneris i.e. a day of Venus. The etymology of Friday is 'Frigg's day'. The germanic goddess Frigg is associated with the roman goddess Venus)
7) Saturn (Shani) - Saturnday or Saturday

The 7 weekdays(starting with Sunday and ending with Saturday) is, thus, an Indian invention(or discovery), which was copied by others. They even wove theology around it(sabbaths :rotfl: ).


Link to post

Image
Image

LORDS OF THE HOURS AND DAYS
16. The (above-mentioned) seven planets beginning with Saturn, which are arranged in the order of increasing velocity, are the lords of the successive hours. The planets occurring fourth in the order of increasing velocity are the lords of the successive days, which are reckoned from sunrise (at Lanka).3

That is to say, the lords of the twenty-four hours (the hours being reckoned from sunrise at Lanka) are :
Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars, respectively;

and the lords of the seven days are :
Saturn, Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, and Venus, respectively.

The lord of a day is the lord of the first hour of that day, the day being measured from sunrise at Lanka.

It is to be noted that the lords of the hours and the days are to be reckoned from sunrise at Lanka (and not from sunrise at the local place). Since Aryabhata I mentions, in the above rule, sunrise without specifying that it refers to Lanka, Brahmagupta finds occasion to criticise him.

Writes he :
"The statement of Aryabhafa, v/z., 'Reckoned from sunrise, the planets occurring fourth (in the order of increasing velocity) are the lords of the successive days' is not true, because he has himself declared sunset at Siddhapura when it is sunrise at Lanka."1

On this criticism, Brahmagupta's commentator Prthndaka comments :
"This is a phantom of a defect, for, in the Dasagitika, Aryabhafa has (already) said—'from sunrise at Lanka'.1'

As regards the first day of the week cycle, it is perhaps implied in the above rule that it was Saturday. Vajesvara (A.D. 904) is the only Hindu mathematician who supposed that the world-order commenced on Saturday. He has criticised Brahmagupta for starting the Kalpd
on Sunday :
"The lords of the hours, days, months and years have been stated by Brahma to succeed one another in the order of increasing velocity beginning with Saturn and not with the Sun. Even
the order of the planets are not known to him."*


As far as I understand, no other culture gives any reason for why a particular planet is associated with a particular day of the week. Only the Indian jyothish (Hora-shaasthra) gives the reason. Not some folk-lore reason, rather an astronomical one. So, that should clinch the argument that weekdays is an Indian invention which was borrowed/copied by the others.

What is the reason for particular planet being associated with a particular day of the week?
Firstly, one needs to understand that a day is divided into 24 horas. A 'hora' is a time-division. Most probably, 'hour' is derived from 'hora'. Each hora is associated with a graha.

There are nava-grahas according to Hindhus(Indians). It is a common mistake to equate graha with planet. But, graha does not mean planet.

The sanskrit word 'graha' is generally translated as 'planets', in astronomical context. This is a mistake, IMHO. The actual meaning of 'graha' is 'grasping'. So, in astronomical context, the word 'graha' should mean 'a body that exerts attractive force on earth'.

9 Grahas are listed by Indians:
1) Sun (Ravi/Aditya)
2) Moon (Soma/Chandra)
3) Mars (Mangal)
4) Mercury (Budha)
5) Jupiter (Guru/Brihaspati)
6) Venus (Shukra)
7) Saturn (Shani)
8 ) Rahu
9) Ketu

Rahu and Ketu are called chaya(shadow) graha(bodies exerting attractive force on earth). They are merely shadow bodies and therefore, the actual grahas are only 7. These 7 grahas are used to denote the 7 weekdays.


Rahu and Ketu are solar and lunar nodes. The fact that they are called 'chaya'(Shadow) also indicates that Indians understood the eclipse in the same way as the modern understanding is. Infact, one could say that the modern understanding is derived from the Indian understanding. When the indian knowledge of mathematics, astronomy and medicine spread to europe and middle east, the modern sciences in their present form were created.

So, the 7 grahas are the 7 astronomical bodies that exert pull on the earth and earthlings. Therefore, other astronomical bodies that do no exert this pull or exert a insignificant pull are ignored, IMHO. Thats the reason for ignoring Neptune, Uranus and Pluto.

These 7 grahas are associated with 24 horas. The day of the week is decided based on the hora in which the sun rises on the day. According to Hindhus(Indians), the day starts with sun rise and continues till the next sun rise. Between the two sun rises, there are 24 horas. When a sun rises in the hora associated with jupiter, it is called jupiter's day i.e. Guruvaaram. Thats the methodology.

Aryabhatta mentions Shani(Saturn) first. I think he does that because Shani(Saturn) is the slowest graha i.e. it takes the longest time in a revolution around the sun. Infact, the word 'shani' seems to be related to 'shanaihi' which means 'slowly'. Starting from Shani, he says that the other planets are faster. I don't think he meant Saturn-day (Shanivaaram) to be the first day of the week.

Because, Sunday is specifically known as 'Aadhi-vaaram' i.e. first-day and in almost all jyothishya treatises, sunday is treated as the first day of the week whenever the weekdays are mentioned. Bhaskara says that Sunday is the first. Aryabhatta does not explicitly say which day is the first day of the week.

In Judaism, 'God' is supposed to have worked for 6 days and then rested on the 7th day. That means, that their week also starts from the Sunday and ends on Saturnday(which they consider to be a holiday).

In X-ism, Sunday was chosen as sabbath because of the pagan association of the Sun God(Mithra) with Sunday.

In Malsi, Friday was chosen just to get sabbath before jews and X-ists.

I searched for a reference for a weekdays in Ramayana and MB, but I have not been successful. Maybe I missed and others can verify. But, there definitely seems to be references to weekdays in Puranas. Infact, I had created an excel sheet on Nava-grahas for my understanding sometime back based on Puranas and Jyothisya. I am linking a screenshot to it. Link

Sunday is supposed to be a very holy day according to the Hindhuism. All days are holy and are associated with different Gods and Goddesses, but Sunday seems to have a special significance. Infact, it seems that Meat and Sex are supposed to be shunned on Sunday.

There is a hithopadhesha story involving a jackal, deer and crow. The story briefly goes like this:
There was once a deer in a forest. It was well-fed and healthy. It had a friend, crow. Once upon a time, a jackal saw the deer and wanted to eat it. But, the deer was quite strong and healthy, so the jackal could not hunt it. So, it tried subterfuge. Jackal went to deer and offered friendship. Deer accepted it and took it to crow. Crow and jackal used to be neighbours along with friends. The crow was not happy with deer's decision to befriend the jackal(who was an unknown stranger with unknown motivations and history). But, jackal made sentimental and rhetorical protests against the crow's suspicions and convinced them of his honesty. Then, both of them accepted the jackal as friend.

One day, when the crow went to some other place on some business, jackal spoke to deer,"dear friend, there is a wonderful field of crop just outside the jungle. You can feast in it..." The deer was initially afraid that the farmer of the field would attack it, but soon it was lured by the jackal. Jackal promised to keep guard while the deer ate in the field. So, they went and feasted on the field of crops. This became a routine. The farmer of the crop was fed up with this and put a net to catch the deer. One day, when the crow was not in town, jackal and deer again went to the field. But, this time, the deer got caught in the net. Immediately, it started crying for help from the jackal.

Deer said,"Oh friend, quickly cut open this net. I am trapped, if the farmer comes, he'll kill me."

But the wily jackal said,"I am so sorry my friend. I would have definitely released you, but the net seems to be made of animal fibre. Today is Sunday and I don't eat meat today. So, I can't cut that net today. I'll release you tomorrow morning. Till then, I'll wait here..."

And then the jackal waited for the farmer to come and kill the deer, so that he could feast on it. But, the crow came back to forest and learnt the truth and immediately came to the help of the deer.

But, the farmer was already coming to kill the deer. So, crow devised a plan. It instructed somethings to deer. And the deer followed the instructions. The deer lied down on the ground and acted like dead. It pulled in all the air and tried to look bloated. Meanwhile, crow pretended to peck on the deer's eyes. Seeing that scene, farmer thought the deer was dead. So, he casually opened the net. Immediately the deer scooted from the place. Farmer threw the stick on the deer, but it missed the deer and hit the jackal which died on the spot.

-----------
Link to pdf of aryabhattiya translation in English

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby prahaar » 13 Nov 2013 19:26

Nilesh Oak wrote:^^Sudarshan ji,

I posted the above and due to other circumstances, could not post the explanation.

The verse (loose translation) states that 'Days of the week are named based on ...(1) first, arranging the planets (includes sun, moon) in the order of their relative motion (with respect to earth.. as seen from earth) from slow to fast (first column) and then (2) counting 24 hours in a day(this is nowhere stated in the verse)...a planet is assigned to each hour of 24 hours (of the day), and the planet corresponding to the time of Sunrise (beginning of day) is used to assign the name of that day.

What Gurjar has shown for 6 AM would work for any other time of the day also. It just that he picked up 6 !M (in illustration) to align with ~ sunrise time.
So let's say,...we begin with 6 AM -with Saturn (and thus Saturday)...then 7 AM would be Jupiter, 8 AM would be Mars and so on. On the next day at 6 AM , planet corresponding to sunrise (or 6 AM) would be Sun and thus next day would be SUNDAYand so on.

Same thing would apply to Friday and if one completes the table.. we would be back to 6 AM (next day) that would correspond with Saturn.

This long logic is captured by the word 'Chaturtha' in the Aryabhatia verse. i.e. to say, if you start with Saturn, next day would be day corresponding to planet, 4 places from Saturn (Sunday) and next after would be 4 places from Sun which would be Mooon (Monday) etc.


In Marathi, the term for a week is "Athavda" is this related to 8 day weeks or does it refer to the fact that on the 8th day from now (i.e. after one week). The difference between Saptaah and Athavda has always been a source of mystery.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 13 Nov 2013 20:43

Continuing on the point raised by putnanja - are there any explicit references to weekdays in the Ramayana or MB? I haven't read the originals of either (except the Gita), but from the stories and translations I've read, I haven't come across any weekday references in either. Is the Aryabhatiya verse the earliest known reference?

Nilesh ji, I've taken snapshots of the wiki page you posted. May I suggest that you include this explanation from the Aryabhatiya in your book, in the section where you have that commentary on your specific event occurring on Thursday? Maybe you could also include some material from the wiki pages. This would essentially "freeze" the wikipedia material, and preempt any later wiki updates by anybody to claim Greek/Babylonian/Martian authorship of the weekday concept.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 13 Nov 2013 23:28

sudarshan wrote:Continuing on the point raised by putnanja - are there any explicit references to weekdays in the Ramayana or MB? I haven't read the originals of either (except the Gita), but from the stories and translations I've read, I haven't come across any weekday references in either. Is the Aryabhatiya verse the earliest known reference?

Nilesh ji, I've taken snapshots of the wiki page you posted. May I suggest that you include this explanation from the Aryabhatiya in your book, in the section where you have that commentary on your specific event occurring on Thursday? Maybe you could also include some material from the wiki pages. This would essentially "freeze" the wikipedia material, and preempt any later wiki updates by anybody to claim Greek/Babylonian/Martian authorship of the weekday concept.

No mention of explicit day (nomenclature) in Valmiki Ramayana or Mahabharta AFAIK.

Good idea. Would you help me by doing a first draft. At a minimum, we can include that in appendix, if not in the main text, next to the conjecture of explanation of Guru-pushya yoga. Let me know.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 13 Nov 2013 23:30

prahaar wrote:In Marathi, the term for a week is "Athavda" is this related to 8 day weeks or does it refer to the fact that on the 8th day from now (i.e. after one week). The difference between Saptaah and Athavda has always been a source of mystery.

This could be simply due to how a time interval is calculated. A week (7 days) vs. Sunday to Sunday-both inclusive...which would make it 'Athavada.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 14 Nov 2013 00:14

I'll try that draft. What material do you want in it? The Aryabhatiya verse, the table (or maybe a slightly modified table in Excel), some material from current Wiki pages, and explanation?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 14 Nov 2013 01:23

you got it. May be check wiki pages with few other search headings.. such as, seven day week, origin of names of the day etc. just to see what other info pops up, and how it revolves in circle built on one speculation over the other...

TIA

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 14 Nov 2013 09:34

Just tried a little experiment. I calculated the gravitational influences of the seven planets on the earth and ranked them in order of significance. The sun and moon are pretty much equidistant from the earth at all times, while the remaining five planets are at variable distances. So for the remaining five, I calculated the gravitational influences at their closest points to the earth. The influences are in units of gravitational acceleration (m/s^2). Since the influences are so minute in these units, I actually used mm/s^2. Here are the results:

Planet g (mm/s^2)
-------------------------------
Sun 5.9316
Moon 0.0333
Jupiter 3.2050e-4
Venus 1.8921e-4
Saturn 2.3249e-5
Mars 6.9708e-6
Mercury 2.6464e-6

The shocker is little Venus being more than 8 times as significant as Saturn, and almost 60% as significant as Jupiter. Now this order is somewhat different from the Navagraha or weekday order. Surya and Chandra are of course foremost. Guru, Shukra, Shani are in the right order, as are Mangal and Budh. But Mangal and Budh come after Guru, Shukra, and Shani in terms of gravitational significance to the earth.

Looks like the Aryabhatiya explanation is the most rational one for the order of the weekdays after all.

Edit: forgot to mention - this was inspired by Johneeg's explanation of "grahas" as "grasping objects."
Last edited by sudarshan on 14 Nov 2013 09:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 14 Nov 2013 09:35

Darn it, the forum software removed extra whitespaces and messed up my neat formatting. Oh well.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 14 Nov 2013 23:28

And come to think of it, ranking and naming the planets in terms of gravitational influence goes against the concept of the grahas anyway. It's not like the grahas are named in the order of decreasing influence on the lives of humans and other living beings on the earth. The concept is that they each possess equal influence, and they independently exert their benevolent or malevolent influence without (directly) interfering with the action of other grahas. The overall effect on any living being on earth is some kind of "vector sum" of all these individual influences.

So the gravitational effect ranking is a non-starter from that point of view.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 15 Nov 2013 08:13

Sudarshan,
The overall effect on any living being on earth is some kind of "vector sum" of all these individual influences.

This reminded me of a conjecture made by Dr. Vartak in understanding 'Shesha holding Prithvi (Earth) on his head'. He conjectured that 'Shesh' (remaining, balance) is analogus to 'vector sum' of all gravitational forces...leading to stable earth in its orbit around the Sun.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 15 Nov 2013 09:11

Actually in the gravitational N-body problem, it would seem that the earth's orbit around the sun is a stable motion under the action of a central force, and all the other forces from the moon and planets are perturbations, which have a destabilizing effect. So the orbit is wobbly. This is one theory of axis precession, after all.

But I get what you're saying.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby SaiK » 15 Nov 2013 21:42

Who is the elder of the two?
Kartikeya
Vinayaka

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Adrija » 15 Nov 2013 22:04

Who is the elder of the two?
Kartikeya
Vinayaka


Interesting enough question- if one is to go by the story of Vinayaka's birth, then at the time parvati created Vinayak (vi + nayak= born without a father), then Kartikeya was already the leader of the Ganas, and hence the elder one

But it seems the two at some time got into an argument on precisely that question, and the parents decreed that whoever could go round the world faster would be declared as the elder one. Kartikeya got on his peacock and went off, whereas Vinayak circumambulated round his parents, declared that "for him, they were the world", and got declared the winner :twisted:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 16 Nov 2013 01:23

sudarshan wrote:Actually in the gravitational N-body problem, it would seem that the earth's orbit around the sun is a stable motion under the action of a central force, and all the other forces from the moon and planets are perturbations, which have a destabilizing effect. So the orbit is wobbly. This is one theory of axis precession, after all.

But I get what you're saying.

In that case, wobble could be seen as Shesha tossing earth from one of its hood to the next! :rotfl:

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby sudarshan » 16 Nov 2013 02:12

Adrija wrote:
Who is the elder of the two?
Kartikeya
Vinayaka


Interesting enough question- if one is to go by the story of Vinayaka's birth, then at the time parvati created Vinayak (vi + nayak= born without a father), then Kartikeya was already the leader of the Ganas, and hence the elder one

But it seems the two at some time got into an argument on precisely that question, and the parents decreed that whoever could go round the world faster would be declared as the elder one. Kartikeya got on his peacock and went off, whereas Vinayak circumambulated round his parents, declared that "for him, they were the world", and got declared the winner :twisted:


According to Tamil legends, this "race around the world" was to gain the fruit of knowledge. When Muruga (Kartikeya) returned from his circuit of the earth, he found Vinayaka already eating the fruit. He got enraged and left home in a huff. Grandma Auvaiyar tried to console him saying "you yourself are the fruit of knowledge, why do you need to eat that fruit," but he wouldn't listen. In Tamil, Auvaiyar is said to have sung - "Pazham nee," meaning "you are the fruit." Kartikeya refused to stop, and settled in a place far from home, at Pazhani (derived from Pazham nee). This is the shrine for Kartikeya at Pazhani.

Shiva is supposed to have left home in search of Kartikeya and followed him around. Kartikeya, like the enraged son who *wants* his father to follow him fruitlessly (thereby validating his fatherly love), kept leading Shiva on a wild-goose-chase. Maybe Kartikeya even, in his heart (like any peeved son), secretly wanted Shiva to catch up with him and console and pamper him. But Shiva finally got tired of the chase and also stopped at another place (don't know where exactly). So people who visit Shiva's shrine at his resting point can have the blessings of a father waiting for his sulking son to return home.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby SaiK » 18 Nov 2013 05:31


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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 18 Nov 2013 20:56

Toba explosion & plausible reference for it in Mahabharata

Ramana Garu,

Not sure if it was in this thread or some other thread that I stated that a plausible (conjectural) reference exists that might refer to Toba (like) explosion and its aftereffect on Indian subcontinent.

Here is the reference (If you can imagine, I took out Volume 2-Parimal Publications, Sanskrit-English translation...to point out these verses to you.. and then misplaced that volume in the house. This morning I found it :) )

Vana Parva- Chapter 188 .

Read the entire chapter but especially verses beginning 65.

------------
At the end of this description, it refers to heavy rain continuing for 12 years and earth flooding etc. This may appear as flood myths (and end of yuga) in areas not affected by volcanic explosion. On the other hand, areas affected by volcanic explosion see this (as described in MBH) as regeneration and beginning of new yuga, etc.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby vera_k » 19 Nov 2013 21:41

Simulation argument

Our lives, controlled from some guy's couch

Scientific proof of reincarnation

This part of the simulation argument is similar to the concept of reincarnation and karma -

you should try to be as interesting as possible, on the theory that the designer is more likely to keep you around for the next simulation.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 19 Nov 2013 21:55

Thanks for the effort Nilesh!!!
Will google the kishori lal version and see the context.

Is this the one in Markandeya Upakhyana?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03189.htm

Where there is description of the end of a yuga?

In one of the stories in Shanti Parva, they describe a long drought period between Treta and Dwapara yuga.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 19 Nov 2013 21:57

Ref to yavanas in the Puranas

Google Books Link on Yavanas

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 19 Nov 2013 22:09

Advice from Vyasa for our nanhas better halfs:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03231.htm

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 20 Nov 2013 03:13

ramana wrote:Thanks for the effort Nilesh!!!
Will google the kishori lal version and see the context.

Is this the one in Markandeya Upakhyana?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03189.htm

Where there is description of the end of a yuga?

In one of the stories in Shanti Parva, they describe a long drought period between Treta and Dwapara yuga.

If you can read Hindi, this is better version than Kishori Mohan...

https://archive.org/stream/mahabharata0 ... 3/mode/2up

Page 599 (pdf), 1485 book page.. chapter 188, beginning verse 65. As you read compare that with plausible descriptions (and outcome due to) of an ash cloud, and wind carrying smoke and soot from massive volcanic explosion.

(yes Markandeya upakyana)

Also, if you follow, Kishori Mohan, you have to go two chapter previous to what you have linked...(at sacred texts)

Correct link (for the chapter enclosed below)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03187.htm
------------
"O king, towards the end of those thousands of years constituting the four Yugas and when the lives of men become so short, a drought occurs extending for many years. And then, O lord of the earth, men and creatures endued with small strength and vitality, becoming hungry die by thousands. And then, O lord of men, seven blazing Suns, appearing in the firmament, drink up all the waters of the Earth that are in rivers or seas. And, O bull of the Bharata race, then also everything of the nature of wood and grass that is wet to dry, is consumed and reduced to ashes. And then, O Bharata, the fire called Samvartaka impelled by the winds appeareth on the earth that hath already been dried to cinders by the seven Suns. And then that fire,

p. 380

penetrating through the Earth and making its appearance, in the nether regions also, begetteth great terror in the hearts of the gods, the Danavas and the Yakshas. And, O lord of the earth, consuming the nether regions as also everything upon this Earth that fire destroyeth all things in a moment. And that fire called Samvartaka aided by that inauspicious wind, consumeth this world extending for hundreds and thousands of yojanas. And that lord of all things, that fire, blazing forth in effulgence consumeth this universe with gods and Asuras and Gandharvas and Yakshas and Snakes and Rakshasas
. And there rise in the sky deep masses of clouds, looking like herds of elephants and decked with wreaths of lightning that are wonderful to behold. And some of those clouds are of the hue of the blue lotus; and some are of the hue of the water-lily; and some resemble in tint the filaments of the lotus and some are purple and some are yellow as turmeric and some of the hue of the crows' egg. And some are bright as the petals of the lotus and some red as vermillion. And some resemble palatial cities in shape and some herds of elephants. And some are of the form of lizards and some of crocodiles and sharks. And, O king, the clouds that gather in the sky on the occasion are terrible to behold and wreathed with lightnings, roar frightfully. And those vapoury masses, charged with rain, soon cover the entire welkin. And, O king, those masses of vapour then flood with water the whole earth with her mountains and forests and mines. And, O bull among men, urged by the Supreme Lord those clouds roaring frightfully, soon flood over the entire surface of the earth. And pouring in a great quantity of water and filling the whole earth, they quench that terrible inauspicious fire (of which I have already spoken to thee).
And urged by the illustrious Lord those clouds filling the earth with their downpour shower incessantly for twelve years. And then, O Bharata, the Ocean oversteps his continents, the mountains sunder in fragments, and the Earth sinks under the increasing flood. And then moved on a sudden by the impetus of the wind, those clouds wander along the entire expanse of the firmament and disappear from the view. And then, O ruler of men, the Self-create Lord--the first Cause of everything--having his abode in the lotus, drinketh those terrible winds and goeth to sleep, O Bharata!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 21 Nov 2013 07:52

Anatomy of Cooking - listen to the whole lecture, but also specifically after 28:00 (Recall descriptions of Ashwamedha, both from Ramayana and also from Mahabharata - role of priest)
---------



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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 21 Nov 2013 21:12

Wow what a description of the "End of the yuga" which is stolen as "End of Times!"


History channel had a show on the "How the Universe was made" some years back and it showed the continental drift and the many changes in the weather. This idea of constant rain creating floods was also shown.

However the scientific timeline is in millions of years which is before human exisitence.

Its remarakble that Vyasa describes all these as within human memory.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 22 Nov 2013 08:14

ramana wrote:Wow what a description of the "End of the yuga" which is stolen as "End of Times!"


History channel had a show on the "How the Universe was made" some years back and it showed the continental drift and the many changes in the weather. This idea of constant rain creating floods was also shown.

However the scientific timeline is in millions of years which is before human exisitence.

Its remarakble that Vyasa describes all these as within human memory.

Have you read.. "Path of the Pole" by Charles Hapgood. Worth a read....

in this context.. Geologically speaking.. much longer time lines for changes to occur on earth if one only looks (believes)in plate tectonics (well..we have every reason to believe in plate tectonics)....but add to it.. theory of earth crust displacement.. and picture changes very fast.. for seasons, beginning and ending of ice ages, movement of continents ...not over millions of years but over thousands of years... volcanic eruptions...and much more.. with consequences for weather, migrations, evolution, destruction and extinction at any given location and around the world...

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby ramana » 24 Nov 2013 08:42

I haven't found that book on line. I have his Maps of Ancient Sea Kings.

How true is this earth crust displacements?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby Nilesh Oak » 24 Nov 2013 10:25

ramana wrote:I haven't found that book on line. I have his Maps of Ancient Sea Kings.

How true is this earth crust displacements?

We can only talk in terms of corroboration and falsification.

A lot of stuff corroborates the theory of 'Earth crust displacement'. To be precise, 'Earth crust displacement' is the most meaningful, consistent explanation for number of observations (from variety of disciplines) Hapgood presents. For all it matters, there could be other cogent and meaningful explanation...but all other existing theories are NOT it. The point being, if Earth crust displacement if falsified, we are still left with the task of explaining all the evidence that he presents in corroboration of earth crust displacement theory.

In my subjective conviction, I am convinced. (Of course am not geology expert). So far any criticism I have read falls into polemics and argumentations...etc. very vague and off the subject argumentations, not unlike I have seen when it comes to stuff like "Epoch of Arundhati' and such.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Postby SaiK » 28 Nov 2013 09:36

Follow the true story of an 11-year-old child yogi, Neelkanth, who left his home on June 29, 1792, on a journey of awakening. Narrated by Peter O'Toole.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/361999

http://www.mysticindia.com/aboutthefilm/


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