LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Nov 2013 11:09

^^^

Considering that the Dhruv is a mature product & its line is established. How difficult would it be to duplicate the same line for an interested Pvt sector player, for the civilian / military sector. Doubling the production capacity.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Nov 2013 11:35

^^^^ And why would they do that as a company?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Nov 2013 11:43

indranilroy wrote:^^^^ And why would they do that as a company?

1) Gives the Pvt player a mature product to market.
2) Frees and augments the HAL's production capacity.
3) Further the goal of encouragement for Pvt players. ie. if it is OK for them to make Complete aircraft's as planned by Augusta JV. Aircraft components as planned for the Sikorsky jv for a foreign player, it is Ok to do so for HAL. HAL in turn gets a license fee.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Nov 2013 11:48

No company throws away their cash cow like that. Unless required nobody would set up a competing assembly line. License fee after all can only be part of the whole profit.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Nov 2013 12:47

indranilroy wrote:No company throws away their cash cow like that. Unless required nobody would set up a competing assembly line. License fee after all can only be part of the whole profit.

The desire is not in throwing the cash cow. Or the PVT player gets exclusive rights to the product. The Idea is to augment the production capability, in order to meet the shortfall of the product, if any.

The Dhruv, was just starting a point as it is mature product with a mature supply line. Which ought to make the duplication easy, thereby easing the learning curve for a potential PVT player.

Compared to say the IJT or the LCA.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 15 Nov 2013 13:16

Pratyush ji, Indranil is spot on but that doesn't mean you're contemplating the impossible either. HAL will be incentivised to outsource if the financial penalties for not delivering on time are harsh and if the armed forces are allowed to offer such strict terms in a take it or leave it manner. Of course, no contract should be designed to fail, but the carrot and stick policy has to be used.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Nov 2013 05:55

Yes,2017 for the lightwallah to be inducted.If Tatas can build helo cabins for Sikorsky,it is absurd to still keep out Indian pvt. industry from building helos ,or major portions of the same,which have been fully developed and for which there is a long order book.HAL has apart from more ALHs,the LUH,LCH,armed ALH/Dhruv,Lancer,etc.,etc.At least the smaller sized helos can be hived off to pvt. industry.This will allow HAL to design larger medium and heavy sized multi-role helos for the 3 services.There is a report in AWST of a new heavy helo,which will be the second largest in the world after the MI-26,being developed by a JV between Russia and China.The IN needs at least 100 Sea King size multi-role helos for its warships and the CG too has its needs.However,one sad fact is that not a single helo engine has been developed over decades for any type as yet.neither do there appear to be any momentum by HAL in this area.All our so-called "indigenous" helos will be captive to firang engines.

This beggars a Q.Can the exercise of engine development be handed over to the pvt. sector,since DPSU's efforts have failed to deliver?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Nov 2013 06:13

Tatas can build helo cabins for Sikorsky

Perhaps OT for this thread, but, are there financial stats for such a deal? Who put in how much, for what (land, etc)? I mean Sikorsky is not going to give Tata a bone - it had to make financial sense to both to make it work. teh question is how did they make it work and India has not figured it out. Or they have figured it out, but are stuck elsewhere? ????

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Nov 2013 08:29

Philip sir,

I think a lot of us think here that HAL's only mandate is national security. And it should forego everything else in order to meet that end. That is not a fact. HAL is deeply tied to national security, but its first goal is to survive as a profit-making company. And I see nothing wrong in that. In fact it would be fundamentally wrong to take this right away from them and give it to private companies only?

There is nothing stopping Tata from fielding a light helo. In fact the AW deal was to capture the order for 197 helis under the import category. Currently Tata is a build to blue-print company, and a damn good one at that. But currently it still doesn't have the design capability. So it does not have a heli of its own which it can field in the desi category.

However, I have to say. HAL, watch out!

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Nov 2013 09:02

NRao wrote:
Tatas can build helo cabins for Sikorsky
Perhaps OT for this thread, but, are there financial stats for such a deal? Who put in how much, for what (land, etc)? I mean Sikorsky is not going to give Tata a bone - it had to make financial sense to both to make it work. teh question is how did they make it work and India has not figured it out. Or they have figured it out, but are stuck elsewhere? ????

They are probably angling for the navy medium multi role helicopter deal. Plus the S92 isn't exactly a blockbuster product for Sikorsky either.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 18 Nov 2013 11:19

Were is LCH TD3 ??? Looks like the project has hit a pocket

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 19 Nov 2013 04:35

abhik wrote:
NRao wrote:Perhaps OT for this thread, but, are there financial stats for such a deal? Who put in how much, for what (land, etc)? I mean Sikorsky is not going to give Tata a bone - it had to make financial sense to both to make it work. teh question is how did they make it work and India has not figured it out. Or they have figured it out, but are stuck elsewhere? ????
They are probably angling for the navy medium multi role helicopter deal. Plus the S92 isn't exactly a blockbuster product for Sikorsky either.

The way the navy's growing, we'll need lots of ASW helos even excluding replacements for our Seakings. Guess who's got the only affordable kit in town ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S ... 0R_Seahawk

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 19 Nov 2013 07:07

KrishnaK wrote: The way the navy's growing, we'll need lots of ASW helos even excluding replacements for our Seakings. Guess who's got the only affordable kit in town ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S ... 0R_Seahawk

affordable don't know , but the kind of interference & snooping tactics that "they" use is not that we want to deal with.

we cannot have a compromised platform on/near our strategic assets

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 20 Nov 2013 00:59

tushar_m,
looks like nobody's told you about sikular/anti national/sellout congis having sold out our supreme national interest by buying unkil gear already - P8I.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 20 Nov 2013 07:33

KrishnaK wrote:tushar_m,
looks like nobody's told you about sikular/anti national/sellout congis having sold out our supreme national interest by buying unkil gear already - P8I.

Krishnak ,

please congis will do what they need to do (to get close to unkil) but our armed forces are no fool.

they know where to show strength (MMRCA an example) & where not to right.

now suppose you implement a security system in your house of xyz company ok , even with your believe in there system will you allow the company employees to wander freely in your house . NO.........

C17 & P8I are good acquisitions but we are not dependent on them , MMRCA & Navy ASW is a different story as we might use them on our AC (ASW) in future.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 22 Nov 2013 16:12

NRao wrote:
Tatas can build helo cabins for Sikorsky
Perhaps OT for this thread, but, are there financial stats for such a deal? Who put in how much, for what (land, etc)? I mean Sikorsky is not going to give Tata a bone - it had to make financial sense to both to make it work. teh question is how did they make it work and India has not figured it out. Or they have figured it out, but are stuck elsewhere? ????

Well Tata and Sikorsky have a JV (which means funding is 50% each) for building the cabins in India. I think they went operational a couple of years ago. While Tata's have invested extensively into the project it ultimately makes sense for Sikorsky to manufacture in India since it can use it for both offsets and also get things done at a cheaper price.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 22 Nov 2013 17:26

what hogwash, buying P-8I, C-17s, C-130Js or any other Unkil gear doesn't show any sudden selling out to unkil, they are all great platforms and none currently match their performance, I for one hope for bigger orders of the C-17, C130Js and P-8I (around 30-40 of each).

S-70I and MH-60R have no equals in proven ASW capabilities. They are front runners for MRH Navy competitions. Apache too will be ordered in good number.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Nov 2013 18:31

while the NH90 might be a better raw naval helicopter (the seahawk being based off the blackhawk has a peculiar low roof shape), I am sure the user has invested enough over decades to ensure it has the best sensors and kit. export model kit will still be better than underfunded euro developments.

I really wish we could put together a 10t medium helo for both naval and land use and end this cycle once and for all. maybe just copy and clone the seahawk liberally with a turbomeca makila2a or rtm322 powerplant. not attempt great innovations in design but tread a well beaten path and reduce risks.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 23 Nov 2013 05:54

I'm looking at the Mi-38 which is comparable to the EH-101 and thinking it is the right time to talk joint production with Mil Corporation. Use the Canadian engines due to better after sales service and parts, FADEC controls, etc. Get the Israeli & french to enhance the operation and function of the heli and don't use~~NIRODH; MASS PRODUCE THAT B_A_S_T_A_R_D -~~Airforce, Army, Navy, Civil Aviation.

I'd bet my money on it - Mi-38.

Mind the language. You can convey your feelings w/o using such colorful language. rohitvats

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Nov 2013 23:01

News to cheer coming from unavailability of imports ...

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 283462.ece

KOCHI, October 29, 2013

...

According to top sources in naval aviation, the force will raise its maiden ALH squadron, to be named INAS 322, in Kochi in early November.

The Navy had earlier turned its back on the 5.5 tonne ALH, dismayed as it was over the dimensions of the ‘unfoldable’ helicopter-blade which rendered the otherwise successful platform incompatible for ship-borne operations.

With the platform falling out of favour, all the ALH operated by the Navy were moved to Kochi sometime ago and their role largely limited to search and rescue. In the meantime, the platform was extensively used for trial of the dunking sonar Mihir, a ‘technology demonstrator’ indigenously developed by the Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL), an institution under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The lab is currently developing an advanced version of low-frequency dunking sonar, which it is hopeful of inducting into the Navy in future.

“There’s a shortage of helicopters in the Navy in all categories and acquisition processes are moving pretty slow. Which is one of the reasons why the force is contemplating buying more ALHs, which fall in the light-medium category,” said a senior official.

Another senior officer, on condition of anonymity, said with the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya arriving at Karwar in late December/early January, some of the ALHs would be dispatched to Karwar to carry out night-flying operations from the carrier. {1-2 Chetak traditionally do the SAR duty aboard Viraat. Dhruv should be able to replace these}

Meanwhile, the Navy is said to have taken a keen interest in the under-development weaponised version of ALH Dhruv, called Rudra, for conducting coastal surveillance and security operations.

Developed by HAL, the Rudra underwent extensive trials over the sea in Kochi late last year, where its sensors reportedly fared exceedingly well, tracking vessels from as far as 12 to 14 kms.

Formation of the full fledged squadron is a good step. If nothing else, maybe 4-5 squadrons can be devoted to SAR duty at each fixed wing aviation intensive airbase. Perhaps one flight at INS Abhimanyu equipped with Rudras

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Nov 2013 23:15

I would be hoping navy picks up couple of dozen LCH for its amphibs too.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 25 Nov 2013 23:20

Leading with mettle

Very old interview. Didnt know that HAL has outsourced alot of ALH to private sector.

Our first order from HAL came in 2005 for supplying around 165 components for the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). Thereafter, HAL has given us more orders, and this year we will be supplying more than 500 of the 800 parts per helicopter that HAL needs. HAL has also entrusted us with supplying sophisticated carbon fibre tools for their new helicopter programme.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 26 Nov 2013 03:33

As per my reading at HAL website they have delivered at least -

1) 150 ALH
2) 130 MKI

In 2012 they delivered 74 aircrafts of all types.

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Nov 2013 03:50

A Sharma wrote:Leading with mettle

Very old interview. Didnt know that HAL has outsourced alot of ALH to private sector.

Our first order from HAL came in 2005 for supplying around 165 components for the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). Thereafter, HAL has given us more orders, and this year we will be supplying more than 500 of the 800 parts per helicopter that HAL needs. HAL has also entrusted us with supplying sophisticated carbon fibre tools for their new helicopter programme.

Contrary to popular belief of one monolithic company doing everything in-house, HAL and DRDO rely on many (couple of thousands) private Small/Medium Enterprises (SMEs) for various parts and materials. SMEs compete on open tenders for orders and outsource some of their share of work to other SMEs too.

When people talk about privatising, they are talking more about creating an equivalent to HAL - a vertical integrator in the likes of Reliance, etc. In either case, a lot the work will be outsourced to SMEs.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 26 Nov 2013 11:58

It seems MH60R beats S70i in attitude by 3 times

inspite of carrying more weight:

S70i = 4300 feet
MH 60R = 11,750 feet

Maximum gross weight
S70i = 22,000 Pounds
MH 60R = 23,500 Pounds

Useful Load
S70i =8000 Pounds
MH 60R = 9000 Pounds

Although S70i seems to have more powerful engines, still

Rest seems to be almost equal, cabin space, widhth height etc. :
http://helicopters.findthebest.com/comp ... 0S-SEAHAWK

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Nov 2013 17:01

Katare wrote:As per my reading at HAL website they have delivered at least -

1) 150 ALH
2) 130 MKI

In 2012 they delivered 74 aircrafts of all types.

HAAL 130MKI +50 Russia - 3 crashed, so IAF fleet of SU 30MKI is about 177. How many sqaudrons, I think each squadron will have 16+ 3 replacement =19 aircraft. So IAF must be converting its 10th sqaudron to MKI and retiring MIg 21 M's I suppose.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 04 Dec 2013 09:43

Second LCH prototype completes successful sea-level trials

Bangalore: The second prototype (TD-2) of Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) successfully completed the sea-level trials at Air Force Station, Tambaram in Chennai, last month. A product of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the LCH -- painted in camouflage colours -- had the trials from October 28 to November 23. The extensive trials were carried out to validate the design improvements implemented on the prototype based on the feedback from initial sea-level trials carried out during June 2012.
A company official told Express that a total of 32 flights were carried out covering helicopter performance, load measurement, handling qualities for various all-up weights (with external stores installed), bank turns and spot turns, low speed handling, single engine performance and auto-rotation. “Considerable improvements have been observed in the performance parameters in comparison with the earlier sea-level trials. All the test points planned were completed successfully with no major snags observed. Representatives of customers and certifying authorities were present during the trials,” the official said
...
...

check out the link for story and pics ...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Dec 2013 09:49

The fairing of the tail landing gear has changed since AI'13.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2013 11:49

S70i ceiling of 4500ft is surely wrong. thats barely 1.5km. convert to meters and it makes sense.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Dec 2013 12:36

Really annoying to see these journalists putting up their highly intrusive watermarks in even the press release photos. If they don't own the photographs, they shouldn't spoil it by putting their watermarks right in the middle.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 04 Dec 2013 19:30

@Jamwal - here are the pics again !

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 04 Dec 2013 19:32

Thank you Hari Sir! Been a long time since you posted.

Can you please give more insights into the testing? How is it progressing? Is there any reason more prototypes weren't built to continue testing? Is it on track for IOC in 2015? What are the parameters to be met for IOC and FOC?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Dec 2013 19:33

thanks a lot ! any prediction about when TD3 is going to roll out ?
we would also love to know about how the weight reduction is going.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 04 Dec 2013 19:43

You are welcome!
You could check out the Press Release reproduced at http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/
-your Qs are answered there!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Dec 2013 20:13

Wow what a beauty. Must say the fit and finish seems to be exceptional. Kudos to you and all the other folks working on it.

This plus the AF Akash & also the Pragati displayed at ADEX all look very well made.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Dec 2013 20:28

Hari Sir, it didn't have any numbers, only vague comments, perhaps intentionally so.
hence my question.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 04 Dec 2013 20:39

Looks great! Hair Nair sir, any CAD image or outline diagram of the TD-3? Want to see the new canopy that you had referred to earlier.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Dec 2013 20:46

Thank you Nair sahib

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Dec 2013 21:36

And new armored plates. Nice.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 04 Dec 2013 21:59

Hari Saar,
I have always wondered what advantage can you gain by having ability to summersault or roll 360 degree? Can LCH do it now or will it do it in future? May be it's just a stunt and not worth the effort?