Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[tushar_m]

There was a news of 200-300 km range SAM from Avinash Sir few months back............any news on that ???

i don't know why we can't make our own long range SAM , we have capability to shoot down ballistic missile travelling at much higher speed & altitude.Also the support systems & electronics from Akash could be re-used or improved upon for our own VLR-SAM(since 120 km / 70 km is LR-SAM)

[Victor]

Indranil, no offense taken at all. We are on the same side with different viewpoints.

[Singha]

>> The US can afford to be transparent simply because foreign sales are a pittance compared to domestic purchases.

that is very true. internally there is always a tug of war on which congressman's favourite factories get the workshare and how large projects are distributed. sometimes projects the military does not want are pushed on them by powerful congress players.

[Austin]

OT but this is for Singha , SS-18 being launched from underground Silos and drill

http://youtu.be/mumQ5a4tDSg

[tsarkar]

Both Aster & Standard family of naval SAMs are a generation old, with focus on BMD than anti cruise missile. Nothing new generation was - or still is - forthcoming from Russia. Barak-8 was the only new generation program, that allowed India participation & technology sharing, and enabled lessons learnt during Project AAD to be used & expanded.

Unfortunately, Israelis diverted the best people towards their counter rocket artillery mortar program, that was more pressing for them, and Barak-8/LRSAM because lower priority for them. I had written this 4-5 years ago, when the staffing issue actually arose.

However, I am given to understand that since then, the project is back on track, INS Kolkata has Elta 2248 installed, and the ships will be commissioned shortly. LRSAM along with SRSAM will make naval defences along the best. Paired with Spyder, Akash, AAD, the MRSAM will make Indian AD among the newest in the world.

[Austin]

^^ The Aster Family and new 9M96 SAM on Gorshkov class are designed for Anti-Air and Anti-Missile capability and less on BM while the US SM-2/SM-3 family specially the latter is more designed for anti-BM role.

[Singha]

the Sm2 platform is gaining a new lease of life under the Sm6 project by using amraam as a 2nd stage weapon to give agility once the big 1st stage is dropped off. the claim is effective against manouvering targets at 150k as a best case.

Austin, thanks for that video. apart from the yars and rubezh, one looks forward to the new heavy liquid fuel icbm that will replace the ss18 force.

[Austin]

the Sm2 platform is gaining a new lease of life under the Sm6 project by using amraam as a 2nd stage weapon to give agility once the big 1st stage is dropped off. the claim is effective against manouvering targets at 150k as a best case.

SM 6 like solution is not really an optimum solution in terms of energy ,lethality and FOV of Seeker specially when dealing with manouvering missile of supersonic and subsonic type ..... right now Aster is the best out there in terms of Naval SAM and which is operational on ships.... Barak-8 and 9M96 series would join the league once its operational.

[Singha]

for close range shots they wont use SM6. there is ESSM and RAM for that and perhaps a laser weapon in coming years to burn the seeker head.

[Austin]

^^ Obviously I am talking about medium range type of Aster/Barak-8 for close shot the ESSM and RAM are fine systems

[Karan M]

I think they even rejected the idea of testing the Javelin in india.

This was before Leon Panetta began to break down the bureaucratic walls last year. The Pentagon wasn't too warm to the idea and basically said "take it or leave it" after India requested it (US did not offer it). Panetta was given the mandate to bring about a change in the American attitude and to understand our needs better. He proposed co-manufacture of the Javelin and then after DRDO started making the usual whining sounds about ToT, he upgraded the deal to co-development. This is still not ToT in the sense that we (or actually DPSUs) understand it but it is still far better than outright purchase or even co-manufacture. We will be exposed to the innards of the tech but absorbing it and using it is entirely upto us. We (or actually DPSUs) have proved spectacularly inept in this regard so far.

So DRDO asking for India's due rights is "making whining sounds about ToT". Speaks volumes about your attitude towards India & what you think India should do - accept whatever hand me down comes from the United States and then grovel about how munificent the masters are.

No specifics about the so called codevelopment either, except for what the great Shri Panetta supposedly promised.

[Karan M]

If you want sophisticated stuff, you either make it yourself or buy it off the shelf from someone else. This obsession with "ToT" only adds to delays and costs in procurement.

Exactly. Where our people got the idea that we can simply buy critical tech is a mystery but they seem stuck on it like the backbenchers are stuck on leaked question papers. The point to ponder is, why are we dependent on "ToT" after over half a century of DRDO's existence for common, everyday weapons?

If you actually knew something about the topic instead of pushing for the American MIC in thread after thread, you'd realize that it was not DRDO's mandate to develop "common, everyday" weapons to begin with. That was the mandate of the OFB, which in turn was more attuned to license manufacture to begin with. It has taken them extensive effort to even get the clearance to develop one off programs again let down by OFB disinterest.

[TSJones]

So DRDO asking for India's due rights is "making whining sounds about ToT". Speaks volumes about your attitude towards India & what you think India should do - accept whatever hand me down comes from the United States and then grovel about how munificent the masters are.

No specifics about the so called codevelopment either, except for what the great Shri Panetta supposedly promised.

WHat due rights about American weapons technology might that be if I may fearfully ask?

[Karan M]

It might help if we tasked DRDO to master basic weapons tech like guns, bombs and bullets which we are still struggling with and leave the more esoteric stuff like titanium casting and forging research to someone like Bharat Forge or L&T. They will be better equipped and more than happy to carry out this research if the funds support is funneled to them instead of DRDO. Similarly, while it is hard to ignore the truth in "army marches on its stomach", it might be more efficient to hive off stuff like high-altitude chapati and dal making technology to other specialized institutions (granted that this is a big success area). Having a single organization develop everything from warmer socks to lighter combat aircraft is indicative of our grand illusions and the neta-babu expertise in siphoning off taxpayer money.

Sadly, if anything this post proves that you have no idea about what goes on in the Indian private sector as versus DRDO. Both organizations remain critically dependent on organizations like DMRL to drive breakthroughs in materials technology which is then shared with the private sector to mass manufacture, provided the MOD agrees to it (and they often don't). A single organization developing everything from warmer socks to lighter combat aircraft is simply because Indian private industry does not invest in R&D and lacks the impetus to do so either, unless they are given assured contracts, which the Indian armed forces will not do. If you actually spend sometime talking to folks from the SMEs who do actual business with Indian services, you'd realize this for yourself. Second, it speaks volumes that you think hiving off critical tech development from the one organization that does excel in it, to those new to it will work, and second, it won't impact the vast number of strategic programs like BMD, to missiles all of which are dependent on such breakthroughs.

Indranil, I think you are reading past me. I hold the institution called DRDO, its backers and its track record over half a century in disdain, not the people who work there and I have said so repeatedly. I'm sorry you consider it "churlish" to complain about wasting Indian taxpayers' money, no matter who pays it. I don't agree and I not only disdain it, I am furious in case that wasn't apparent.

First off, you clearly know nothing about the DRDO or its track record to hold them in disdain. With $26 Billion of their items in production, backed by extensive trials from the services, they hardly need your bellyaching to tell them what to do and what not to. Claiming to hold the institution in disdain, the same one built by the people working there, whilst claiming that you don't hold the people there in disdain, is to be ludicrous beyond measure.
Second, you aren't even an Indian taxpayer, so spare us the claims of being worried about the Indian taxpayer and where the investments go to. If anything, you have a single minded focus on serving the interests of the US MIC at the interests of the Indian one - and that is increasingly clear from your obnoxious behaviour. Anything and everything wherein DRDO or any Indian agency takes a hard stand on protecting Indian interests first and foremost at the expense of the US MIC, elicits your disdain. Whereas of course, the latter is pure as driven snow & will protect India irrespective of their dubious track record in being subordinate to Khan political interests.

[Karan M]

So DRDO asking for India's due rights is "making whining sounds about ToT". Speaks volumes about your attitude towards India & what you think India should do - accept whatever hand me down comes from the United States and then grovel about how munificent the masters are.

No specifics about the so called codevelopment either, except for what the great Shri Panetta supposedly promised.

WHat due rights about American weapons technology might that be if I may fearfully ask?

Whatever India pays for. As simple as that. Whether it be Israel or Russia or your beloved US, if India pays for TOT, then those are its due rights. Claims of fancy JV and so forth, whilst your arms marketers shy away from even answering what exactly will be transferred as part of those JVs and who owns what are unfortunately far too common. Saw much of that during the MMRCA fracas

[Karan M]

I think they even rejected the idea of testing the Javelin in india. this for a $1 billion deal.
for them $1b is peanuts and they can afford to be arrogant on all fronts.

Here is what some useless idiot from DRDO, whom all the oh so superior types would have disdain for, told Indian country bumpkins - whenever India makes a breakthrough of any sort, at any level, magically, the sanctions disappear and it becomes available for import. You don't even have to take my word for it. The issue is so obvious that one more chap from DRDO, yeah the same bunch of idiots who can only make such primitive things like Agni etc - even cited it publically in an article. I'll dig it out when I have time, for the superior types to pour more "disdain" over.

[Karan M]

Re the ToI article on LRSAM etc. Here's the key takeaway:

"Expecting Israel to share its technology with India is unfair. But such things should have been clarified before the joint venture was entered into," said an official.

Nobody, not the Russians, French, Israelis or the US is going to share their knowledge base with any buyer.

If you want sophisticated stuff, you either make it yourself or buy it off the shelf from someone else. This obsession with "ToT" only adds to delays and costs in procurement.

That said, if you want to buy, FMS is the best route to go because you have transparent benchmarks for unit costs. For 3-5%, the DoD does all the negotiating and logistics for the buyer.

FMS is hated by foreign militaries and pols because there's no room for skimming. If France, Russia or Israel had similar programs it would put politicians out of business. However, unlike the US, they know that it also means less money if they are totally transparent. The US can afford to be transparent simply because foreign sales are a pittance compared to domestic purchases.

Thanks for posting a sane post as versus some arrogant holier than thou flamebait about how the idiot Indians need to be held in disdain for merely looking out for Indian interests.

You are quite right that nobody will want to share their critical technology. However, when dubious JVs are foisted upon Indian agencies citing merely one example of a partial success (Brahmos) and claims that JV is the way to go internationally by all sorts of self appointed experts (Eurofighter was cited 24/7 as an "example" in public events), then the above will be the result.

India pays through the nose, with claims being made by the non Indian JV provider that all sorts of TOT will be done etc etc. The offer then becomes too good to refuse. Of course, when execution happens, its entirely another matter and the partner is rarely if ever held to account. With a huge gravy train of contracts already in their kitty, they can't even be pressurized. The answer to that then, is to launch proper well coordinated programs, with adequate funding and reasonable expectations. Something that rarely, if ever happens. Meanwhile, India has to import left hand drives trucks via middlemen which have to be assembled in India, from CKD kits

At the end of the day, this is all artificial scarcity. Like it or not, arms imports have been a huge gravy train for which Indian defence industry has been deliberately hamstrung.

[Indranil]

Lets calm it down guys.

No more inflammatory views, personal attacks and disdain. Let's talk of only Indian Missiles and Munitions here. Technical points and counterpoints please.

I will let the last few posts stay. Anymore posts on this will be moderated.

[ramana]

Victor thanks for finding out the BF capability. Ti is fracture tough material with high ultimate strength. So one needs a very heavy press about double that to squeeze the material in the dies like butter. But 16K Ton press is a good beginning.

[John]

^^ Obviously I am talking about medium range type of Aster/Barak-8 for close shot the ESSM and RAM are fine systems

ESSM is medium range missile not point defense system and in terms of performance is between Aster 15 and Aster 30. ESSM size wise is similar to Barak-8.

[vic]

LRSAM and MRSAM are basically enlarged Derby missile

[Singha]

well that was the selling point - israel already had older version of MFSTAR on some saar corvette so an enlargement here , an enlargement there..this was supposed to be as easy as designing the JSF

but life takes it own turns. their B-team looks like couldnt do it quickly enough while the A-team got assigned to david sling and arrow3

[Karan M]

They do look the same... but still these were supposed to have all new airframe designs, new propulsion, new improved seeker with enhanced network centric warfare capability.. the list went on and on.
The main improvement was in the ground based systems.. and even there, pretty much everything is coming from israel, which is what makes this a big sham for the price (IMHO) until and unless we can get IAI to deliver on its end of the deal and share critical details.
The Maitri is a better program in that apart from some core missile technologies the rest will be all leveraged locally including the FCR etc

[Pratyush]

Looking at the LRSAM issue, I have a question, how difficult will it be to develop a similar missile completely in india, now that the Akash has been proven, and is in production. Using the tech developed and the lessons learned.

[koti]

^^ I don't think that the relevant tech in mastered domestically. IIRC the engine for Barak 8 is Indian. The IAI was involved in both the S/W and the seeker tech, both of which India lags behind.

[abhik]

^^^
What was stopping us from building the entire system ourselves getting the components that we cannot make currently of the shelf? For ex we are getting Russian seekers for the Astra AAM. Do the ABM missiles have indigenous seekers?.

[John]

but life takes it own turns. their B-team looks like couldnt do it quickly enough while the A-team got assigned to david sling and arrow3

No surprise here Israel's biggest threat is Katyusha rockets and chance of limited ballistic missile strike from Iran as counter response to any israeli strike on its facilities. The need for Barak-8 has more or less diminished especially with military taking back Egypt, Turkey normalizing relations with Israel and Syria falling apart. Keep in mind Singapore was offered the Joint venture for Barak-8 first and they decided to stick with Aster.

[Karan M]

^^^
What was stopping us from building the entire system ourselves getting the components that we cannot make currently of the shelf? For ex we are getting Russian seekers for the Astra AAM. Do the ABM missiles have indigenous seekers?.

time. the argument for this jv was we would take too much time to do something similar locally, given we were too focused on our own bmd program, would have to develop lrsam specific tech etc. including jv.
arun prakash reportedly supported this program first, and once it was accepted, the IAF joined with shri tyagi of the IAF pushing for it.

ABM missiles use local seekers.

[Philip]

Did anyone spot a media /paper report about the proposal for setting up a third launchpad on the S.Eastern TN coast near Tuticorin? It is an intriguing idea,that could also be used for missile testing,which will speed up our testing and development of newer missiles considerably.Posted here .Pl.delete if earlier posted.

A spaceport for Tuticorin?
IANS Aug 23, 2013, 03.19PM IST

(ISRO chairman K Radhakrishnan…)

CHENNAI: Indian space scientists say that a rocket launch pad in Tamil Nadu's Tuticorin district is technically an ideal location for space missions provided other requirements are also met.


"Tuticorin is a good location for a rocket that needs to fly southwards. As a matter of fact, Tuticorin was long ago considered for locating a rocket launching site but the locals opposed this," a senior official of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) told IANS preferring anonymity.

"A rocket launch site should be on the east coast and near the equator. And Tuticorin district satisfies that condition," a former ISRO official told IANS.

According to him, a spaceport in Tuticorin district will be ideal for putting satellites in polar orbit normally undertaken through ISRO's polar satellite launch vehicle (PSLV) and not for satellites for geostationary orbits undertaken by the geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle (GSLV).

"In the case of a GSLV mission, the first stage/engine after it burns out might fall on Sri Lanka or in its maritime waters. Such a thing cannot be allowed to happen," he added.

Tamil Nadu can become a hotspot for the Indian space programme like what it is now for the country's nuclear power sector if Karunanidhi's demands of housing a rocket launch pad and an aerospace and propulsion technology institute is set up in the state.

Tamil Nadu has fast reactor research organization, the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR), Madras Atomic Power Station (MAPS), 500 MW prototype fast breeder reactor (PFBR), Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project (KNPP) and other organisations connected with the atomic energy sector.

On Aug 19 when ISRO called off the much-expected launch of its GSLV rocket due to a fuel leak in its second stage/engine, DMK president M. Karunanidhi wrote to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh urging him to set up the country's second launch site at Kulasekarapattinam in Tuticorin district around 600 km from here.

Tamil Nadu chief minister J Jayalalithhaa has so far refrained from commenting on the matter.

"Considering the data and details available with me, I am of the view that Kulasekarapattinam in Thoothukudi (Tuticorin) District in Tamil Nadu will be best suited to construct a new launch site," Karunanidhi wrote.

He said the place was near the equator and other ISRO centres and is also considered the best site next to French Guinea, from where some Indian satellites are launched.

Citing the shortage of aerospace and propulsion experts in the country, Karunanidhi also suggested that an Indian Institute of Aerospace and Propulsion Technology be set up at Mahendragiri in Tirunelveli district, around 650 km from here.

ISRO has its Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre (LPSC) at Mahendragiri where it assembles the second and fourth stage/engines for the PSLV. The centre also assembles the second stage engine for the GSLV rocket.

PS: "Local's opposed it".Sounds very familiar just like the KKMNP agits by quisling forces!

[SSridhar]

BrahMos Successfully Penetrates Hardened Targets in Army Test - The Hindu

The Army on Monday successfully test-fired an advanced version of the 290-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile which penetrated and destroyed a “hardened target” in the Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan.

“The Block III variant of BrahMos with deep penetration capability is fitted with a new guidance system and the launch by the Army has successfully validated the deep penetration capability of the supersonic cruise missile system against hardened targets,” BrahMos officials said in New Delhi.

“The missile system was successfully test fired by the Indian Army at the Pokhran test range in Rajasthan at 1055 hours,” they said.

The missile after launch “followed the predetermined trajectory and successfully pierced the designated concrete structure at bull’s eye owing to sheer velocity of the missile.”

The test-firing was witnessed by local Corps Commander Lt Gen Amit Sharma, who along with other senior officers congratulated the operational Army team for the successful launch.

The Block III variant of land-attack BrahMos has already showcased its supersonic steep dive with precision strike capability in mountain operations.

The Army has inducted two regiments of the missile in its arsenal, while the third regiment induction is in progress.

The 290-km BrahMos flies at a speed of 2.8 Mach and carries a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg. The missile can be launched from multiple platforms including land, sea, sub-sea and air.

Both the Army and Navy have already inducted the missile in service, while the air-version of the weapon is scheduled to be flight tested by the IAF soon.

[pragnya]

Karan M, can you clarify the following please??

Akash orders for IAF stands at 8sq of which 1 is implemented (gwalior), 2nd is under implementation (lohegaon, pune) and the rest is as we know is for the NE.

IA orders is for 2 regiments and not 2sq as i had misread. now in the link you gave in the army thread AS mentions 6sq for army. obviously these would grow as would IAF's.

how are these army squadrons going to be distributed among the strike corps??

Need to check - basically, the Army took 2 regiments (need to check how many batteries they had), but there are reports that smaller, hence more mobile SAMs may also be ordered for the strike corps forward elements and Akash will be used for the more static VA/VP and C3I nodes.

Karan, sorry for the late reply. was just going thro' some drdo TF's and found this june 2011 issue. as can be seen, the launcher, command post and the radar are all based on T-72 chassis - heavily modified. i guess they will move with the strike corps to take care of AD rather than being static posts.

[PratikDas]

ToI: IAF decides on Sukhoi-30 for BrahMos, final tests from end-2014
PTI | Nov 21, 2013, 06.37 PM IST

MUMBAI: The Indian Air Force has chosen its frontline Sukhoi-30 fighter jets as the platform to mount the supersonic BrahMos missiles, whose first test launch will be carried out by the end of 2014, a top official said on Thursday.

"We have chosen Sukhoi-30. That is a deep penetration aircraft which is being produced at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's Nashik facility in collaboration with the Russians," BrahMos Aerospace managing director and chief executive AS Pillai told reporters here.

He said an air version of the BrahMos missile is ready, but testing, simulations and aircraft modifications will take a year more and the final flight with the missile will happen only by the end of 2014.

Under a contract, BrahMos Aerospace has to deliver the supersonic cruise missile to the IAF starting 2015 and Pillai exuded confidence that the deadline will be met.

Pillai said the IAF asked for the weight of the missile to be reduced to 2.5 tonne from the general 3 tonne as the launch at high speeds requires lesser components on propulsion, and his company has been able to do it.

The BrahMos was jointly developed in the early 2000s and has since been inducted by the Army and the Navy. An air platform, has however, not been completed yet.

Pillai claimed it is the only supersonic cruise missile platform in the world which travels at supersonic speeds and can be launched from both sea and land.

BrahMos Aerospace is a 50.5:49.5 partnership between India's Defence Research and Development Organisation and Russia's NOPM, and it has been tasked with manufacturing the missile for use by the armed forces of both the countries.

Asked about the failure of the company to convince the Russian armed forces to induct the missile system even after a decade of its launch, Pillai said the company will take up the matter with the Russians for induction.

"We are making all out effort for this. As per the inter-governmental agreement, India and Russia both have to induct the JV product and also, we can sell to some friendly countries ... we are telling the Russian government it is time they inducted it," Pillai said.

He said recently Indian engineers fitted the missile system on a Talwar class frigate being built at a Russian shipyard, and added Russia can also emulate it.

Pillai, however, said each country's individual threat perceptions and strategies may differ.

-----------------------------------------
Boggles the mind how the Russians get away with dragging their feet.

[ramana]

I don't see the need to sell the Brahmos to others. It offers unique capability that India needs.So its moot point wheterh the Russians adopt it or not.

The BlkIII test where it pierced a concrete target is very important for it combines many features : sufficient terminal velocity at the target, accuracy to get there, sufficient material toughness to survive the resisitve forces, the correct angle of attack or it could bounce away like a ball or flatten itself like chapatti.

[PratikDas]

I think the money earned from the Russians can be used to further Brahmos R&D, just like Indian money is keeping several Russian companies in business.

[Karan M]

I don't see the need to sell the Brahmos to others. It offers unique capability that India needs.So its moot point wheterh the Russians adopt it or not.

The BlkIII test where it pierced a concrete target is very important for it combines many features : sufficient terminal velocity at the target, accuracy to get there, sufficient material toughness to survive the resisitve forces, the correct angle of attack or it could bounce away like a ball or flatten itself like chapatti.

We can sw lock the advanced features. More Brahmos orders mean better business for indian firms.

[Leo.Davidson]

Don't you think the missile could be further validated by Russia placing a few orders? Haven't heard a whisper in regards to that. If the Brahmos is so good, then quality will triumph over range. What use is a 7 ton, 500 km Granit ASM, when you can only target enemy ships a few 100 kms away.

[Avarachan]

Leo, there have been reports that the Russian AF is seriously interested in the air-launched BrahMos.

It would be good for India to have additional orders for the BrahMos, but I don't think the BrahMos needs them for "validation" ... The Indian services are very happy with it. That is all the validation needed.

Karan M, that's a good point about software-locking the advanced features. Despite its limited range, the BrahMos is of strategic importance for India given the situation on the borders. And the details of strategic weapons should be carefully guarded.

[Pratyush]

Don't you think the missile could be further validated by Russia placing a few orders? Haven't heard a whisper in regards to that. If the Brahmos is so good, then quality will triumph over range. What use is a 7 ton, 500 km Granit ASM, when you can only target enemy ships a few 100 kms away.

The PJ 10 is the Russian model on which the Bramhos is based.

[vasu raya]

if Brahmos cannot be exported, then there is a need to develop a 'CM-400' type derivative suited for all of the rest of the SCS players

[member_27721]

Hi anyone can tell why we require QR-SAM for army and Akash cannot meet the requirement of SAM