Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Nov 2013 10:15

vasu raya wrote:if Brahmos cannot be exported, then there is a need to develop a 'CM-400' type derivative suited for all of the rest of the SCS players

Wont Prahar and Pragati meet the role.

member_27721 · Post by **member_27721** » 22 Nov 2013 10:21

Hi anyone can tell why we require QR-SAM for army which is even shorter range than Akash and Akash cannot meet the requirement of SAM for army

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Nov 2013 10:43

Eagle-Eye wrote:Hi anyone can tell why we require QR-SAM for army which is even shorter range than Akash and Akash cannot meet the requirement of SAM for army

For part one, they are 2 different requirements and are not overlapping. Part 2, says who??

member_27721 · Post by **member_27721** » 22 Nov 2013 11:21

Akash SAM is of 27 kms why does army require shorter range SAM, I mean what's the requirment of SAM which is lesser than 27 kms

username changed to sugato as per BR norms.
you can change it to any human sounding name of your choice if you want.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Nov 2013 11:50

Shorter range SAMs will be smaller, lighter, more transportable and concealable. Plus they will usually have smaller minimum engagement ranges as well.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Nov 2013 12:05

quick reaction, layered defence.

vic · Post by **vic** » 22 Nov 2013 12:26

I personally believe/think that variants of LRSAM=MRSAM=Barak-NG=Barak-2=Barak-8 can serve as :-

VLR AAM
QRSAM
ARM
PGM

We must try to wring out maximum benefits out of existing products rather then running after new imports like headless chickens.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Nov 2013 16:23

India to have Sudarshan Chakra-like missile soon

According to the Hindu scriptures, Sudarshan Chakra is the ultimate weapon of Lord Vishnu used for the destruction of enemy. The best part is it comes back to its original place after destructing the target.

The myth will now be reality.

In next few years, India will have its own Sudarshan Chakra-like deadly hypersonic potent missile.

BrahMos Aerospace India Ltd (BAIL) is currently working on BrahMos II programme where scientists have taken inspiration from Lord Vishnu's weapon. Going at a speed of Mach 7, the missile would deliver the warhead, assess the destruction of target, come back and get ready to go again.

Talking to Headlines Today, Dr A Sivathanu Pillai, CEO and MD for BAIL, said, "It is our dream to make the best weapon. Our mythology has given us a lot of inputs. Out of all gods, only one weapon is moving and is ready to go in nanoseconds at the command of mind. It destroys the enemy and comes back, and that is Sudarshan Chakra."

Dr Pillai, considered to be the father of the world's fastest supersonic BrahMos cruise missile project, adds, "We have established a lead in supersonic missile. Definitely our country and its scientific community are capable of developing a hypersonic missile which is reusable. With technology changing every day and a sort of information war beginning in the world, there is a possibility of mind operating machines. Hypersonic vehicles with multi-use will reduce the cost putting payload in the orbit. It could deliver the payload at multiple points and it can come back. That is what we have thought of as our own version of Sudarshan Chakra."

According to Dr Pillai, India will get this hypersonic missile in the next 5-7 years. At present, BAIL is working on the air-to-air missile, which should get ready by the end of 2014.

Dr Pillai's ultimate dream is to establish a military industry complex which can provide all the weapons in the country. "We could be a self-reliant country in missile technology, but for that we need industry support," he said.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Nov 2013 17:00

^ this has been our dream since the AVATAR concept. The US is also pursuing the same objective in the Prompt Global Strike program.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Nov 2013 17:17

it was APJ's dream -- re-usable missile 'akshay'.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Nov 2013 18:28

More than anything else, I like the inspiration behind it.

And Sivathanu Pillai seems to be a very down-to-earth guy. Sort of like everybody's favourite uncle, who whenever he turns up at home by surprise, brings us coconut barfi or something like that.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Nov 2013 22:02

Another is Vamana.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 23 Nov 2013 08:26

Pratyush wrote:
vasu raya wrote:if Brahmos cannot be exported, then there is a need to develop a 'CM-400' type derivative suited for all of the rest of the SCS players
Wont Prahar and Pragati meet the role.

Are you suggesting Pragati can target ships including A/Cs? and it can be air launched as well?

At least at the conventional level there should be reciprocation to Chinese moves, they should think about something that they want to introduce in the Indian ocean that they don't want themselves in SCS. They got two players in South Asia and we have many in the ASEAN if and when cultivated.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Nov 2013 12:16

JE Menon wrote:And Sivathanu Pillai seems to be a very down-to-earth guy. Sort of like everybody's favourite uncle, who whenever he turns up at home by surprise, brings us coconut barfi or something like that.

And, one more aspect I like in him, is the fact that he has been seen in so many engineering colleges in TN addressing students on space technology, weapons, DRDO projects etc. He is motivating students. In fact, i see a number of top guys from ISRO also doing that.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 23 Nov 2013 15:12

India successfully tests Dhanush ballistic missile

The missile was fired from a naval ship as part of the training exercise of the Indian Navy, M.V.K.V. Prasad, the director of the Integrated Test Range in Chandipur in Odisha's Balasore district, told IANS.

"The test was successful," he said, but declined to specify the exact location in the Bay of Bengal where it took place.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Nov 2013 15:17

vasu raya wrote: Are you suggesting Pragati can target ships including A/Cs? and it can be air launched as well?

At least at the conventional level there should be reciprocation to Chinese moves, they should think about something that they want to introduce in the Indian ocean that they don't want themselves in SCS. They got two players in South Asia and we have many in the ASEAN if and when cultivated.

With modification to the guidance package, yes. As a ground launched weapon. WRT, the remainder of your post, it is a political matter and we need to be able to stand on out own in our back yard before we can be taken seriously by any one else in the ASEAN.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Nov 2013 15:44

vasu raya, we don't need to when we have a much more credible system in service (brahmos) and another in the works (brahmos-2)

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Nov 2013 17:21

Is |Dhanush our version of a naval launched DF-21D with a longer range than advertised?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Nov 2013 17:49

shourya.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 23 Nov 2013 19:58

Rahul M, Absolutely, however the preceding discussion was showing a divided opinion on its export due to the critical nature of Brahmos in our own defence setup. Moreover how many ASEAN airforces can air launch the Brahmos-1? it would have to be Brahmos-2 to have coverage of SCS and not just border or EEZ defence

Pratyush, Prahaar being a replacement for Prithvi and Pragati being its export version, one would be happy to see
land to sea, land
ship to sea, land

Then as part of BMD, we were toying with the idea of air launching AAD at 1200kg, a weight range close to Brahmos-2 at 1600kg? so why not a air launched Pragati for static land targets and ships?

and why not a dev path from AAD to Ks-172 type missile, you need a 400km missile given the huge Chinese landmass even if vectored from SCS or their eastern seaboard by the ASEAN airforces?

we still have UAVs to work on

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 23 Nov 2013 20:00

with that said, is the bunker busting Brahmos-1 good for hitting dams from the dry side? and the mention of MKI as a DPSA is heartening.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 23 Nov 2013 23:22

what is the logic of Dhanush? a nuclear capable ballistic missile with 250 km range? the article also says that the missile was tested by SFC .that means it has to be used for nuclear strike only. what is the target? CBG? but 250 is too less. the article also says that the missile has already been inducted.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Nov 2013 23:33

Dhanush was INs claim to being part of the SFC and a TD/training platform for them to get used to Sea launched ballistic missiles. Plus allowed DRDO to build competence likewise.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Nov 2013 23:36

Meanwhile Jagganathan of FP publicizes this.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-bo ... cr-1242675

Josy Joseph is another sting artist who couldnt recognize a SAM from a tank, but in this case, looks like he was fed info. Given the parlous state of the MRSAM program, its antecedents bear a look.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Nov 2013 10:29

From this link,

In the next few months, both DRDO and the SFC will launch a series of missiles. While DRDO plans to launch interceptor missile Agni-IV and subsonic cruise missile Nirbhay, the SFC will test-fire Agni-II and Agni-III. All Agni variants carry nuclear warheads. Agni-I, II and III have already been inducted into the Army. Agni-IV has a range of 4,000 km.

DRDO plans to fire Agni-V, which has a range of 5,000 km, from a canister this year or early next year. DRDO will test-fire Nirbhay in December.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 24 Nov 2013 12:33

Karan M wrote:Dhanush was INs claim to being part of the SFC and a TD/training platform for them to get used to Sea launched ballistic missiles. Plus allowed DRDO to build competence likewise.

is that all? so then are there plans to put longer range ballistic missiles on ship? are there any in the world? Arihant will be the one carrying the ballistic missile and there the command control will be much different so what benefit for SFC to fire a nuke ballistic missile from ship? what competence is DRDO building and for what?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 24 Nov 2013 14:40

of late the DRDO and ISRO boys have been at it hammer and tongs I swear to god... I can barely keep up with all the tests and launches.

Do you chaps remember the days when even a pinaka test would be met with poojas and massive individual threads on BR? Damn, things have changed eh even with noticing it!!!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 Nov 2013 15:30

VikB wrote:what is the logic of Dhanush? a nuclear capable ballistic missile with 250 km range? the article also says that the missile was tested by SFC .that means it has to be used for nuclear strike only. what is the target? CBG? but 250 is too less. the article also says that the missile has already been inducted.

Dhanush is Prithvi variant and hence nuclear capable. It has a stabilisation platform and has sea worthiness. It can cripple a port or be used for area denial. The best part is that it can do what an ICBM/IRBM can do without the stigma of an long range missiles being used, depending upon the target.

srin · Post by **srin** » 24 Nov 2013 17:45

More likely, the DRDO scientists understand the Prithvi/Dhanush system very well. So, anything new that is being developed and needs to be tested (pontoon launch, depressed trajectory etc) would be qualified on Prithvi/Dhanush test-bed.

And because of its 250km range, it doesn't get as noticed in main stream media which is a good thing to have for developmental and experimental efforts

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Nov 2013 21:31

JE Menon wrote:of late the DRDO and ISRO boys have been at it hammer and tongs I swear to god... I can barely keep up with all the tests and launches.

Do you chaps remember the days when even a pinaka test would be met with poojas and massive individual threads on BR? Damn, things have changed eh even with noticing it!!!

many moons back someone commented during run-up to a PSLV launch that India would have truly arrived as a space power when a space launch would be considered just another news item by BRFites. we are inching there I guess.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 25 Nov 2013 21:35

Is a liquid powered missile like dhanush safe on a ship? No safety unrelated issues?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2013 21:39

what do you think russia's submarine deterrence is based on today?
Sineva and Layner 3-stage liquid fuelled SLBMs on deltaIV. IOCed in 2007 and 2012.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 26 Nov 2013 20:32

chackojoseph wrote:
VikB wrote:what is the logic of Dhanush? a nuclear capable ballistic missile with 250 km range? the article also says that the missile was tested by SFC .that means it has to be used for nuclear strike only. what is the target? CBG? but 250 is too less. the article also says that the missile has already been inducted.
Dhanush is Prithvi variant and hence nuclear capable. It has a stabilisation platform and has sea worthiness. It can cripple a port or be used for area denial. The best part is that it can do what an ICBM/IRBM can do without the stigma of an long range missiles being used, depending upon the target.

Still does not explain the involvement of SFC and induction of the missile. For crippling a port, going 250 km near to the shore line is not a good idea. The Pakistani shoreline can be well serviced from the Indian Main land. Plus I think only one ship has been converted for this missile. We have discussed earlier, the use of a nuke capable ballistic missile means an escalation and the danger of being misinterpreted as a nuclear strike. seems something else is cooking

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 26 Nov 2013 23:05

Paanwallah Alert***

Expect an air breathing mijjile test soon. does not create a shock wave...creates a shock though. Issues with guidance sorted out.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Nov 2013 23:15

VikB wrote:
Karan M wrote:Dhanush was INs claim to being part of the SFC and a TD/training platform for them to get used to Sea launched ballistic missiles. Plus allowed DRDO to build competence likewise.
is that all? so then are there plans to put longer range ballistic missiles on ship? are there any in the world? Arihant will be the one carrying the ballistic missile and there the command control will be much different so what benefit for SFC to fire a nuke ballistic missile from ship? what competence is DRDO building and for what?

when you want a seat at the table in india, you have to do jugaad. the inter services rivalry plus limited funds mean that strategic program funding is useful so a hard sought after position. for instance, if funding is provided for improved comms, that will impact the overall service capability as well. all three services were jockeying for position to see who would be the dominant power in the strategic side. dhanush was IN's way of saying they too were in the game and would be in it for the long run and were not going to wait for arihant to arrive. otherwise it was all IAF (air launched) and IA (BM staffing). as regards the rest, DRDO used the dhanush to both learn navalization of BM tech (which includes component ruggedization), plus stabilization required, plus loop the navy into its missile development program (trishul was not exactly a success). so both sides learned a fair bit from dhanush, which was basically a TD but IN quickly handed over its OPVs to be made dhanush capable, which expanded the program plus showed IN was serious.

today, its different. all 3 services have their clearly marked platforms, some owned outright by SFC, some co-owned (eg IAF platforms) and advances in Indian economy have meant that the entire SFC structure has been funded and operationalized (going by shyam sharans public statements) and each service has further systems in development.

dhanush has served its purpose and will probably be deactivated or moved to a fully conventional role. there would be an inventory of dhanush's with adequate residual life, and the OPV/s are modified so why waste them. might be useful for Operation Trident redux.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 27 Nov 2013 00:26

edited

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Nov 2013 00:47

Issues with guidance sorted out

Is it "Issues with guidance" or housing the guidance stuff?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 27 Nov 2013 00:59

So when is the next Nirbhay test? Also the A-II and A-III by SFC and A-IV,and PDV by DRDO. Not to mention HSDTV and GSLV-II and III next year.

Time moves so slow.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Nov 2013 02:44

Nirbhay was going to be tested in December, everyone knows...
The last test, there was no major problem with guidance per se, a part malfunctioned.
India's Cruise missile guidance is there for all to see in the Brahmos launches

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 27 Nov 2013 08:07

chackojoseph wrote:
VikB wrote:what is the logic of Dhanush? a nuclear capable ballistic missile with 250 km range? the article also says that the missile was tested by SFC .that means it has to be used for nuclear strike only. what is the target? CBG? but 250 is too less. the article also says that the missile has already been inducted.
Dhanush is Prithvi variant and hence nuclear capable. It has a stabilisation platform and has sea worthiness. It can cripple a port or be used for area denial. The best part is that it can do what an ICBM/IRBM can do without the stigma of an long range missiles being used, depending upon the target.

Why are they wasting time with the Dhanush, when Prahaar has been designated as the Prithvi replacement. The Dhanush missile being quite cumbersome and it's delivery system - liquid propellants, unstabilized vertical launcher for 5 ton missile are all problematic.

Better luck with the Prahaar.