Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

[member_23455]

With the ANC now formally being assigned to the Navy the INS Baaz upgrade is a matter of time, not just in terms of runway length but fuel and stores. P-8Is, US-2s, and hopefully a detachment of Mig 29Ks operating from there is going to be a major headache for Chinese strategic planners.

I just hope we haven't pissed the Lankans to the point that they allow the Chinese to overtly militarize Hambantota.

[chackojoseph]

Lankan's are not stupid to do that. it is India they should not be pissing.

[member_22539]

^+1. Indeed

[member_23455]

Well given we "let" the Chinese in to Hambantota and now into Maldives I am sure our realpolitik goals of letting these countries know that they should not be pissing us off have worked spectacularly.

Ironically, after these own goals, having a strong ANC is even more necessary so maybe the law of unintended consequences will work out.

[chackojoseph]

I meant, Lankan's know the difference between using Chinese and Chinese using them.

[chetak]

With the ANC now formally being assigned to the Navy the INS Baaz upgrade is a matter of time, not just in terms of runway length but fuel and stores. P-8Is, US-2s, and hopefully a detachment of Mig 29Ks operating from there is going to be a major headache for Chinese strategic planners.

I just hope we haven't pissed the Lankans to the point that they allow the Chinese to overtly militarize Hambantota.

Are we pussy enough to tolerate an Indian "Cuba", without the kennedy type of action??

With the present dispensation I would say that we are.

[kit]

Not quite OT but

As of 2013, the JMSDF operates a total of 114 ships (excluding minor auxiliary vessels), including; four helicopter destroyers (or helicopter carriers), six large aegis destroyers (or cruisers), two guided missile destroyers (DDG), 16 destroyers (DD), 13 small destroyers (or frigates), six destroyer escorts (or corvettes), 16 attack submarines, 29 mine countermeasure vessels, six patrol vessels, three landing ship tanks, eight training vessels and a fleet of various auxiliary ships.[21] The fleet has a total displacement of approximately 450,000 tonnes (including auxiliary vessels).

During the Second World War, there were 56 submarines larger than 3,000 tons in the entire world, and 52 of these were Japanese. Japan built 65 submarines with ranges exceeding 20,000 miles at ten knots, while the Allies had no submarine capable of this feat. By 1945, Japan had built all 39 of the world's diesel-electric submarines with more than 10,000 horsepower, and all 57 of the world's diesel-electric submarines capable of 23+ knots surface speed.

So Japans sub fleet is nowhere what used to be

Japs need only a little bit incentive to build up on its sub force and for Japan to achieve 'strategic depth' what better than to have an equally well armed Indian Navy ? I think better than Australia deep down (sic!) IN is better suited to contain the dragon .Probably this is the best time for India and Japan to collaborate on a second line of conventional but large submarines .Building up a sub force by these two nations will definitely contain the dragon to its land.

[member_23455]

With the ANC now formally being assigned to the Navy the INS Baaz upgrade is a matter of time, not just in terms of runway length but fuel and stores. P-8Is, US-2s, and hopefully a detachment of Mig 29Ks operating from there is going to be a major headache for Chinese strategic planners.

I just hope we haven't pissed the Lankans to the point that they allow the Chinese to overtly militarize Hambantota.

Are we pussy enough to tolerate an Indian "Cuba", without the kennedy type of action??

With the present dispensation I would say that we are.

Agree.

Though let's also remember that it was the US--in the kind of hubris we have also displayed with the Lankans--who perpetrated Bay of Pigs and gave a casus belli to Castro for the Soviet missile basing.

[chetak]

{quote="RajitO"}With the ANC now formally being assigned to the Navy the INS Baaz upgrade is a matter of time, not just in terms of runway length but fuel and stores. P-8Is, US-2s, and hopefully a detachment of Mig 29Ks operating from there is going to be a major headache for Chinese strategic planners.

I just hope we haven't pissed the Lankans to the point that they allow the Chinese to overtly militarize Hambantota.{/quote}

Are we pussy enough to tolerate an Indian "Cuba", without the kennedy type of action??

With the present dispensation I would say that we are.

Agree.

Though let's also remember that it was the US--in the kind of hubris we have also displayed with the Lankans--who perpetrated Bay of Pigs and gave a casus belli to Castro for the Soviet missile basing.

You have hit the nail on the head, sirjee.

The reason why outside powers are pushing us and making sure that we take inimical positions vis a vis the lankans via the ever obliging Tamil nadu EJ lobby is not hard to fathom.

[kit]

how does japan collaborate with Australia for its new subs via scomet ??!! or is SCOMET not applicable here ? so why cant they use whatever logic is applied here with India as well ?

[chetak]

how does japan collaborate with Australia for its new subs via scomet ??!! or is SCOMET not applicable here ? so why cant they use whatever logic is applied here with India as well ?

Because we are not amir khan Z category protectees like the other two??

[member_23455]

Yep.

I will not pretend to understand the gory details of SCOMET, but Japan and Australia have military treaties with the US. A lot gets "waived" as happened to us with the "123 Deal."

The pressing question for us in the next 5-10 years will be whether we want to put our eggs in the Pacific Pivot basket, and to what degree. The US is sparing no effort in lobbying us and through "Track-IIs" with people like Robert Kaplan and Toshi Yoshihara (and before people jump on this is an evil US conspiracy, its our Navy which has been sending invites to some of them).

As usual there is no clear unequivocal policy out of South Block and PMO that we have to trap the dragon in its own lair. Hence we will probably miss the bus yet again.

[kit]

well i suppose the need often obviates the logic ! India certainly can do well with a treaty with japan (more like a marriage, both partners need to think it is good for them!) but maybe not with Australia ( let us not upset the dragons sensitivities )

[chetak]

well i suppose the need often obviates the logic ! India certainly can do well with a treaty with japan (more like a marriage, both partners need to think it is good for them!) but maybe not with Australia ( let us not upset the dragons sensitivities )

Both japan and australia "treaties" will involve the amir khans in someway. They will weasel their way in surely because they are very eager to use Indian resources and facilities. They can put spokes effortlessly in both ventures.

The built up facilities in India for the C130, C5A and the P8i will certainly be in their minds as well as docking and logistics for their naval requirements. Their army already trains with us for their gourmet requirements.

[Philip]

Finally! From almost the very inception of BRF,one has been advocating the acquisition of amphibs.A few air shows ago,we saw the Beriev-200 at Aero-India.Perhaps it has been in the aftermath of the Asian tsunami and the destruction of the air base at Car Nic ,where had we operated amphibs,we could've rushed relief faster to the affected areas.Who knows,perhaps BR has screamed long enough and was heard,and a couple of years ago we saw some movement on the amphib acquisition front.

This deal has gone to the Japanese for obvious strat. reasons.The number is significant.Teh aircraft can be put to very good civilian use too,connecting ports on our coastline and island territories where conventional airstrips are impossible or too expensive to establish and operate. A whole new era in the Indian aviation scenario will occur once these amphibs are made operational.15 is a goodly number to start off with,we require at least 24+ eventually.

Here is on report.

Japan eyes government support for military aircraft exports

By Tim Kelly

TOKYO Mon Nov 4, 2013 4:08pm EST
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A Japan Maritime Self-Defense Forces US-2 search-and-rescue amphibian plane, manufactured by ShinMaywa Industries Ltd, is seen in this updated handout photo released by the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Forces, and obtained by Reuters on November 4, 2013. REUTERS-Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force-Handout via Reuters
A Japan Maritime Self-Defense Forces US-2 search-and-rescue amphibian plane, manufactured by ShinMaywa Industries Ltd, is seen in this updated handout photo released by the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Forces, and obtained by Reuters on November 4, 2013. REUTERS-Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force-Handout via Reuters

1 of 2. A Japan Maritime Self-Defense Forces US-2 search-and-rescue amphibian plane, manufactured by ShinMaywa Industries Ltd, is seen in this updated handout photo released by the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Forces, and obtained by Reuters on November 4, 2013.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/ ... YA20131104
Credit: Reuters/Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force/Handout via Reuters

(Reuters) - Japan is considering providing low-interest loans from a state-run bank to support exports of aircraft designed for military use, the first time such sales are being considered since the end of World War Two, according to officials with knowledge of the still-developing policy.

The step would mark an extension of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's efforts to bolster the self-reliance of Japan's military and could open an overseas market worth tens of billions of dollars in coming years for the country's defense contractors.

It would also mark a sharp reversal of the near-total ban on exports of military equipment, a development that could strain ties with China as a more assertive Japan seeks a market for military technology in Asia and beyond.

Japan's post-war constitution, written by the U.S.-led occupation forces, renounced war and a standing army. Major military equipment makers moved into other fields and the current ban did not formally take effect until the fast-growth era of the 1960s and the evolution of Japan's Self Defense Forces put the issue on the agenda.

Two of the initial test cases for Japan's policy shift are likely to be the C-2 military transporter, built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries (7012.T) and ShinMaywa Industries' (7224.T) US-2 amphibious plane, according to three officials involved.

Both companies are looking to export civilian versions of the aircraft, which would allow them to avoid the ban. Both companies have also made inquiries about the Abe government's willingness to provide financing to help close sales against established aircraft makers.

In one partial precedent, Japan has extended overseas development assistance (ODA) to the Philippines and Indonesia to help those governments buy Japanese-built ships for coastal patrols.

But the rules of Japan's $17-billion annual ODA program forbid military support. Japan's government approved the aid after winning assurances that the boats would be used only to counter piracy and terrorism and after winning an endorsement from the United States, Japan's main ally.

A more likely option for aircraft exports, according to the three officials involved in the discussions, would be low-interest loans from the Japan Bank for International Cooperation (JBIC), a state-operated lender headed by former Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) chief Hiroshi Okuda, to the buyers.

The bank is funded largely by borrowing from the nation's Foreign Exchange Fund Special Account, the pool of money available for intervention in currency markets.

A spokesman for JBIC said the bank does not discuss any loan applications as a matter of policy.

Masanobu Oogaki, a project manager at Kawasaki's aerospace division helping oversee the C-2 project, said officials led by the Ministry of Economy Trade and Industry had discussed seeking JBIC loans for the military transporter once the company had a potential overseas buyer.

JBIC typically charges interest of just over 1 percent on a loan of less than five years. The bank has recently been recruited to help Japanese companies win contracts for big infrastructure projects. Most of its lending is linked to securing overseas oil and gas reserves for Japan.

INDIA WEIGHS HISTORIC PURCHASE

ShinMaywa's US-2, used for search and rescue, may be the first Japanese military-designed plane to win an overseas order. Negotiations with India's military for what would be the first sale are already underway, both sides say.

The plane, which could be outfitted for firefighting or as a kind of amphibious hospital, costs an estimated $110 million per unit.

An official at India's Defense Ministry who asked not to be named confirmed that India has shown an interest in buying the US-2 but said no decision had been made.

"Our policymakers are yet to take a decision as they are still assessing how far it would be relevant to Indian conditions," the official said.

ShinMaywa, which sees Canada's Bombardier Inc. (BBDb.TO) as its main competitor, estimates that there could be a global market of about 100 amphibious planes for which it could compete.

Kawasaki's Oogaki, said his company believes it can compete for as many as 300 orders over the next decade or so with potential customers in Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

The chief competitor to Kawasaki's twin turbofan C-2 is the A400M military transport built by Europe's Airbus (EAD.PA). Similar in size and capability, the Airbus cargo plane has racked up 170 orders in Europe at a price tag starting at around $160 million.

So far, Japan's defense ministry has ordered three C-2s at just over $200 million each in the most recent budget.

By opening export markets for military equipment makers, the per unit cost of such equipment could fall because of the volume of production, making it cheaper for Japan's own military as well, a security panel that drafted recommendations for Abe said last month.

The C-2 represents a major upgrade in the ability of Japan's military to shift equipment and troops to far-flung locations.

Compared to its predecessor, the C-1, which is currently in service, the new plane can lift nearly four times as much cargo - enough to carry a mid-size helicopter, as depicted in sales brochures drawn up by Kawasaki.

While the C-1 struggles to reach Japan's outlying islands, the C-2 could carry a load from Tokyo to Kabul, for example.

Abe plans to release a review of Japan's military policy by the end of the year that is expected to include a commitment to open up military exports and arms development programs.

Mitsubishi Heavy is currently in talks over joining the Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) led F-35 fighter jet program as a supplier after Japan placed an order for the aircraft.

In the meantime, Kawasaki, a major wartime maker of fighters and bombers that has became better known for its motorcycles in recent decades, plans to have the C-2 ready for service with Japan's military by 2015.

The company has a team of around 10 people marketing the C-2, which will be sold as the YCX overseas, Oogaki said.

Investors have anticipated a boon to heavy equipment makers from a pivot in security policy under Abe and the sector has outperformed in a rising market. Shares of Kawasaki are up 122 percent over the past year, while ShinMaywa is up 78 percent. Mitsubishi Heavy has gained 90 percent. Over the same period, the benchmark Topix index has gained 58 percent.

(Additional reporting by Kiyoshi Takenaka in Tokyo and Frank Jack Daniel in Delhi; Editing by Raju Gopalakrishnan)

http://thediplomat.com/2013/10/the-bene ... ith-japan/

The Diplomat has a piece about the virtues of such a deal.
The Benefits for India of a US-2 Deal with Japan
Acquiring the amphibious aircraft could facilitate a positive policy shift for Delhi.

By Vivek Mishra
October 24, 2013

In defiance of its longstanding policy, Japan has offered to sell India its ShinMaywa US-2 amphibious aircraft. In May this year, during a four-day visit to Tokyo by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the two countries agreed on talks that would confirm plans for India to purchase the US-2, an aircraft developed in Japan for use by its Self-Defense Forces. It is expected that India could buy up to 15 of the aircraft, if not more, in what would be a redefining of defense relations between two Asian heavyweights.

The deal marks a volte-face from Japan’s strict postwar policy of not supplying any defense equipment to other countries. Japan imposed a ban on arms exports in 1967, as it sought to demonstrate its antiwar credentials. The ban began to come under pressure in 2011, when the Japanese government relaxed the rules to allow Japanese firms to take part in multinational weapons and military projects.

There are two key driving forces behind this fundamental shift in Japanese policy. One of course is the rise of China and its tussles with Japan over territorial issues. The other is Japan’s desire to expand the market for its defense industries. The two factor are linked: apart from India being a significant and growing defense market, Tokyo also finds it shares common cause with Delhi in the security realm.

Going beyond the mere novelty of it, Japan’s latest offer to sell its US-2 aircraft to India is important because of the extent to which it would redefine the power equations, partnerships and collaborations in Asia. If the sale were to form the basis of similar future cooperation between India and Japan, it would have the potential to influence the balance of power in the Indo-Pacific. The deal would not only strengthen ties between Japan and India but would pave the way for future cooperation in the Indo-Pacific region.

The US-2 is a military aircraft, but it can be retrofitted for civilian use. Even if Japan sells the aircraft to India for civilian use only, India would have the option to rework the aircraft to restore its military purpose. Given the importance Japan is now attaching to its relations with India, one might expect that Tokyo would be quite happy to leave Delhi with that option of converting from civilian to military use.

Japan has already signaled its interest in working together with India in the Indian Ocean. The US-2 deal could facilitate that. Increasing defense cooperation with Japan would not necessarily initiate an arms race in the Indo-Pacific, as suggested by China. In fact, the Indian Ocean is already highly militarized. One more military or civilian deal is not going to throw the ocean or its littoral and island states into chaos.

Moreover, the US-2’s features also count as reasons why India should go ahead with the deal. The aircraft’s short takeoff capability and its ability to land on tides as high as three meters would be a boon for a country as exposed to the ocean’s whims as India is.

Apart from this, the deal will give India a flexibility boost insofar as it will add a new country to the list of potential defense suppliers. An East Asian dimension to India’s defense imports, hitherto dominated by the Western powers, will not only provide Delhi with an additional option, but will extend its Look-East Policy to the Far East. In recent years, India has been taking steps to refurbish this policy by working vigorously with its East Asian neighbors. More often than not, however, this revamping effort is checked by China, which can take advantage of India’s policy of conflict avoidance. The South China Sea is a case in point. India’s desire to work with Vietnam in Phu Khanh and Nha Trang has frequently stumbled on Chinese resistance.

A US-2 deal would enable Delhi to bolster its Far East ties with less chance of rattling Beijing. More than that, though, it could be a cornerstone of a more confident Indian policy in the region.

Vivek Mishra is a PhD Research Scholar in the American Studies Program at the School of International Relations, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi.

The PS-1 ASW variant carried homing torpedoes, depth charges and 127mm rockets as offensive armament but had no defensive weapons. It was equipped with dipping sonar, which had limited use as it required the aircraft to land on water to deploy. It could also carry up to 20 sonobuoys. It had a crew of ten: pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer, navigator and six sensor/weapons operators.[1]

With the US-1A fleet beginning to show its age, the JMSDF attempted to obtain funding for a replacement in the 1990s, but could not obtain enough to develop an entirely new aircraft. Therefore, in 1995, ShinMaywa began plans for an upgraded version of the US-1A, the US-1A kai (US-1A 改 - "improved US-1A"). This aircraft features numerous aerodynamic refinements, a pressurised hull, and more powerful Rolls-Royce AE 2100 engines. Flight tests began on December 18, 2003. The JMSDF purchased up to 14 of these aircraft, around 2007 and entered service as the ShinMaywa US-2.

Since the US-2 was derived from the ASW version,it remains to be seen whether the IN equip some of the aircraft with anti-sub eqpt. which should be done to increase the number of ASW platforms available.Its slow speed qualities makes it particularly suitable for "low and slow" ASW detection and prosecution,since our new P-8Is cannot perform well at low .alts and slow speeds,plus we have only 5 IL-38s.A MAD boom extension may have to be added to the US-2s if the aircraft are to be true multi-role amphibs.

[John]

So Japans sub fleet is nowhere what used to be

Japs need only a little bit incentive to build up on its sub force and for Japan to achieve 'strategic depth' what better than to have an equally well armed Indian Navy ? I think better than Australia deep down (sic!) IN is better suited to contain the dragon .Probably this is the best time for India and Japan to collaborate on a second line of conventional but large submarines .Building up a sub force by these two nations will definitely contain the dragon to its land.

Well in WW2 Submarine were cheaper to build than Capital Ships, a 2000 Ton submarine cost around 2 million dollars compare that with something like Iowa which cost around 100 million. You can see why U-boats were effective in spite of their poor speed and endurance but nowadays a modern diesel submarine costs more than even a destroyer (in the case of scorpene). So good luck building a modern SSK fleet of even dozen and even then i question their capability given that still have same limitations of their WW2 counterparts even with mystical AIP still a work in progress.

[vishvak]

If Indian requirements include hunter killer subs also - in other words subs without missiles all the time and same amount of fuel- that can reduce costs in immediate future and fulfill requirements. For foreign exchange reserve of about 275+ billion $, we should not mind spending some billions $ exactly as per requirements.

[Singha]

I would say the Soryu size 3000t should be the minimum even if units are less. 16 tube section for nirbhay is a must. each sub must be capable to taking out two prestigious and high value targets like coastal oil refinery or power plant.

[Pratyush]

Buying without a clearly thought plan. That too for some thing called strategic ties. I dont know just how usefull that is going to be. In the long run.

The other thing that bothers me is that we seem to be paying 1st world price, for naval assets.

[vasu raya]

Is it a coincidence that 166 people died in 26/11 and a PN frigate or whatever carries similar nos of people in the high seas? such covert barter (Hawala?) might prevent attacks

[Kartik]

Don't know if these pics of the IN's BAe Hawk 132 AJTs was posted or not before..

IN Hawk pic 1

IN Hawk pic 2

[titash]

the APAR radar which is the closest analogue in size and look weigh around 2t per face. unless I am mistaken the aperture of the mf-star in pic above looks bigger than the APAR pic

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/5664/DeZeven_2jpg-2.jpg

IAI has it as 1.5 tons each it could thinner than APAR.

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/3/27543.pdf

Found another pic of the Kolkata and it's MFR...looks quite massive in this pic when compared to the Talwar class boat alongside...

And yes, the volume search radar is the trusty LW-08...nothing fancy. Also, note the 4x AK-630...which means there's no Barak-1 on board.

[Singha]

quite sad to see IN having to make do in this 'chawl' - all sorts of billion$ combatants loaded with fuel and explosives living sharing a 1-room setup. any accident will result in huge losses.

karwar meantime has a big housing shortage and people have been forced to rent outside in the small town, leading to pressure on resources.

we are like the desi who lives in a beat up apt, with carpets last washed 10 years ago but proudly drives a BMW5 to work.

[Austin]

The Aperture Size of the Elta AESA radar on P-15A is impressive would be nice to know how many T/R modules do each Face carry.

CIWS would be AK-630M and Barak-1

Indeed seeing 3 kilos and 3 Capital ships so close to each other after the recent incident makes me wonder why IN dint change some rules on berthing ships and subs so close to each other.

[K_Rohit]

The Aperture Size of the Elta AESA radar on P-15A is impressive would be nice to know how many T/R modules do each Face carry.

CIWS would be AK-630M and Barak-1

Indeed seeing 3 kilos and 3 Capital ships so close to each other after the recent incident makes me wonder why IN dint change some rules on berthing ships and subs so close to each other.

Its actually 4 principal combatants and 3 subs. INS Viraat (most likely) there as well. You can see part of the ski jump

[Singha]

Not even enough piers for each vessel. So ties up side by side like fishing boats in a coastal port.

Unseemly sight.

[Kersi D]

Is it a coincidence that 166 people died in 26/11 and a PN frigate or whatever carries similar nos of people in the high seas? such covert barter (Hawala?) might prevent attacks

[vasu raya]

^^^

you mean to say PN surface assets cannot be treated as collateral? given the role of their naval commandos training the 26/11 footmen, maybe I am a little high on the Vik's arrival

[Rahul M]

why the LW-08 ? even the shivalik doesn't carry this old 'un.

[titash]

why the LW-08 ? even the shivalik doesn't carry this old 'un.

The best I can think of is standardization and cost. The RAN-40L was supposed to be too expensive and was only procured for the Vikrant. I guess it makes more sense to spend $$$ on the essential multi function radars.

The IN has standardized on 3x types of radar for all their principal surface combatants. But it's not very apparent why the mix and match is what it is. tsarkar & chetak are the best people to explain why.

Ranvir & Ranvijay = EL/M 2238 + LW-08
Brahmaputra, Godavari Class = EL/M 2238 + LW-08
Delhi Class = Half Plate + LW-08
Talwar Class = Top Plate
Shivalik Class = Top Plate + EL/M 2238

New Generation:
Kolkata = EL/M 2248 + LW-08

And its not like the primary radar is tied to the SAM...the Ranvir & Ranvijay still mount the SA-N-1 while having the western origin EL/M 2238 + LW-08 radars. Also, the Delhi class has the Barak-1 but no EL/M 2238 radar.

[Philip]

That's a monstrous mast,reminds one of the good old "macks",mast and stack combos that used to feature on some CW warships.One hopes that it is made up of a lot of composites as it would be very heavy topsides if steel,and given its size,will generate a lot of drag when steaming into the wind.The latest littoral combat ship of the USN is the way in which most stealth surface platforms are going to appear.

[Singha]

the mast looks more monstrous because in IN style the superstructure is small and low. half the back part is the back part of the superstructure. but the volume of the radar housing is huge..size of a two storey apartment.
the apar on sachsen class to me looks smaller in housng volume and panel size. not surprising as it was the 1st gen of naval installation in that mould.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 9-crop.jpg

[Leo.Davidson]

why the LW-08 ? even the shivalik doesn't carry this old 'un.

The best I can think of is standardization and cost. The RAN-40L was supposed to be too expensive and was only procured for the Vikrant. I guess it makes more sense to spend $$$ on the essential multi function radars.

The IN has standardized on 3x types of radar for all their principal surface combatants. But it's not very apparent why the mix and match is what it is. tsarkar & chetak are the best people to explain why.

Ranvir & Ranvijay = EL/M 2238 + LW-08
Brahmaputra, Godavari Class = EL/M 2238 + LW-08
Delhi Class = Half Plate + LW-08
Talwar Class = Top Plate
Shivalik Class = Top Plate + EL/M 2238

New Generation:
Kolkata = EL/M 2248 + LW-08

And its not like the primary radar is tied to the SAM...the Ranvir & Ranvijay still mount the SA-N-1 while having the western origin EL/M 2238 + LW-08 radars. Also, the Delhi class has the Barak-1 but no EL/M 2238 radar.

Why not standardize on the SMART-L/S1850M LR air surveillance radar?

[titash]

Why not standardize on the SMART-L/S1850M LR air surveillance radar?

The Whole Thing Is That Ke Bhaiya Sabse Bada Rupaiya

But they were probably looking for reliability - an assured backup in case the cutting edge multi-function radars have poor MTBF (irrespective of "graceful degradation" of the AESA, it's still an integrated system). LW-08 is significantly cheaper and gets the job done.

[Rahul M]

what were the other options we had instead of LW-08 ?

[Singha]

Podberozovik-E , smart-L, smart-S, S1850

LW08 is a long in tooth model. perhaps SMART-L/S1850 was the best option given its AAW role...or better yet a Arudhra++ (range increase from 150k to 400k)

but babaji seems to get along just fine on 60+ cruisers without any 2ndary surveillance radar depending on just the SPY1 for search and track and the SPS for missile control.
some cheen ships like the desi-aegis 052C have also deleted the 2ndary 3d radar in favour of packing in more sam vls in that region. it carries some metre wave anti-LO radar in a light housing instead.

[Vipul]

Spain offers India advanced ship building technology.

Spain is offering to build ships and submarines for the Indian Navy in India with transfer of technology.Spanish Ambassador Gustavo de Aristegui told India Strategic (http://www.indiastrategic.in) here that Spain has had a long tradition of seafaring, leading the way for European countries to the Asia-Pacific and the Americas centuries ago, and that Spain could rightly claim excellence in naval shipbuilding even today.

Hosting a reception on board the visiting Spanish combat supply ship ESPS Cantabria at Goa's Mormugao Port, he pointed out that Spain's state-run Navantia had collaborated with the French DCNS to build six Scorpene submarines at Mumbai's Mazagon Dock Ltd. (MDL).

The Indian Navy, which is expanding with the acquisition of large ships like aircraft carriers, would need supply ships like the Cantabria, which is on a year-long voyage to display its technology and utility.

The double-hulled 19,500-ton Cantabria, designated a combat supply ship (CSC), is a well-designed and capable vessel with place for two large or three medium helicopters, 24x7 sensors and self-defence guns, 8,000 cubic meters of ship fuel, 2,000 cubic metres of jet fuel, 200 tons of fresh water and a range of 6,000 nautical miles (11,000 km). It can simultaneously refuel three ships.

Aristegui said that the Indian Navy was planning to build tankers to look after big ships like aircraft carriers and some LPDs (landing platform docks) like INS Jalashwa as also six more diesel-electric submarines with AIP (air independent propulsion).

The Spanish submarines, designated S-80, are using an innovative AIP system to charge fuel cells, similar to those in the US space shuttle programme.

Cantabria is a more than a tanker, a modern combat supply ship, and Navantia could cooperate in such vessels as well as the submarines and LPDs, the ambassador said.Cantabria's commanding officer, Commander Jose Luis Nieto, pointed out that his ship had left La Grana naval port on January 3 for 11 months' deployment with the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) and will return home on December 21, spending 200 days of the period in the water. That itself demonstrates the capability of the ship.

The US Navy, which has the world's largest ships in its aircraft carriers, generally deploys vessels for about six months at a time, Nieto observed, pointing out that Cantabria could comfortably sustain a mission of about one year.

Cantabria is totally computerized, and the captain can manage all its operations with one laptop from anywhere on the vessel by hooking onto its two main computers on the bridge. Every single door or cranes can be operated in real time, Nieto said, while showing the equipment on board to India Strategic analysts.

In today's fast-paced operational scenario, a supply ship can be a much sophisticated combat support ship, and Spain would be happy to be involved from design to building stage, it was stated.

Senior officers of the Indian Navy and industry were invited to witness the technology aboard the Cantabria while the reception was attended by Flag Officer Commanding, Goa Area, Rear Admiral Balwinder S. Parhar, and other officers.

Navantia has a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with India's Larsen & Toubro (L&T), which is already working with the Indian Navy in heavy engineering and has built parts of the indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant and fast attack craft (FAC) built by the Goa Shipyard. Navantia and L&T are working jointly on building four LPDs like INS Jalashwa for amphibious military operations and disaster relief for the Indian Navy

L&T's vice President and head of ship building, Rear Admiral (retd) K.N. Vaidyanathan, and general manager K. Sivaguru Nathan held discussions with the Navantia team on working together as and when the Indian Government issued a request for proposals (RfPs) or tenders. A representative of Spanish electronic warfare systems company Indra also took part.

Indra already has joint ventures with Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) for producing sophisticated telecommunications systems and radars for the Indian Navy.

Navantia's commercial director for military ships Sofia Honrubia Checa flew in for a short visit to Goa to look at the possibilities in joint ship building. She expressed hope for joint hi-tech systems in the near future.The company recently opened an office in New Delhi, where its representative Martinez Montes is working with the industry and the defence ministry to look at cooperative ventures.

Many members of Cantabria's crew visited the festive beach town, enjoyed the pleasant weather, tasted Goan fish curry, and took home traditional Goan costumes and Indian musical instruments like tabla (drums). They said they would be happy to be back as and when bilateral projects mature.

[Philip]

Unlikely that we will go with Navantia for more S-80/Scorpenes.They left at a crucial stage.OLus,the Navantia built Scorpenes have come in for great controversy as being unstable and would sink swiftly due to a basic design defect,requiring extending the length of the sub,posted not too long ago.

However,they are making a play for the 4 amphibs and with the JC class have poss. the best design available,which Oz has also selected and is building a few of the class themselves.What may go against them is that the IN may feel that as it already has/will have 3 med. sized flat tops by 2020,it would not need a larger d esign like the JC which also has an anti-air/strike role for its STOVL aircraft.The JC will also cost more than the other types being considered like the Mistral and SoKo and Japanese flat top amphibs.

Spain has a fabulous maritime museum ,the Drassanes,in Barcelona,at the end of the Ramblas.One can see a wooden sub and galley of the type used at the battle of Lepanto.Other good maritime museums are at Greenwhich in London,where the Cutty Sark tea clipper is berthed by the quayside.The Arsenale in Venezia is a must see too,though the exhibits are not as spectacular as the Drassanes ,covers a huge area,the complete opposite of the maze like character of Venice,with massive covered docks indicating how important shipbuilding was to Venice.It has a contemporary post-war sub displayed too.However,what takes the prize are the German sub-pens at Brest and other locations in France.They sadly are not open to the public and one has to get special permission to visit them .The ones at St.Nazaire are open though.

[Eric Leiderman]

Vikramaditya is going to be expensive to operate because of:-
1) the fact that she runs on a distillate oil
2) She is steam powered efficiency less than 30%

IAC 1 will be gas turbines , which will have a higher power efficiency.
IAC 2 propulsion is still up for grabs, with Nuke power being discussed as a possibility

We need our carriers to be true blue water ships, and not ornaments in Karwar and on the east coast. They have to run cost effectively.


The Diesel/electric ===> gas turbine hybrid model is being introduced on many newer large naval vessels to enhance the blue water capabilities of the vessels and their respective navies.
The above means at lower power settings eg cruising at 12-15 kts the vessel uses diesel/electric with an efficiency of 45% and higher when high speeds are required
she clutches in her gas turbines with a corrosponding drop in efficiency.

The new America class amphibious vessels are a case in point with a displacement of 40k tonnes they are in the same tonnage as our current fleet of aircraft carriers and would work quite well for a 60k tonne vessel too.

Link
http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... samphibio/

Can somebody dig up fm open source what percentage in units of time (days/hrs) our fleet is sailing and tied up? T.I.A. and maybe it could be compared with other navies.
I would guesstimate we do not too bad, The Khans will be in a class of their own.

[Aditya G]

what were the other options we had instead of LW-08 ?

AFAIK RAWL-02/LW-08 the 'best' and 'biggest' naval radar made in India. That probably explains the choice ... reasonable.