Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Nov 2013 09:41

He founded what is currently called Swaminarayan movement. They have beautiful temples all over India and in US.one of the biggest temples on the Yamuna.
Another in Southern California.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 06 Dec 2013 08:19

Anybody know anything about the dating of these two texts?

Panchasiddhantika

Garga Samhita

And exactly who is Pandurang Vaman Kane? It seems he's a "notable Indologist," which sounds pretty sinister. No offense to a dead man (he died in 1972), but I get the impression (from my searches so far) that he's one of these "eminent" scholars who's held up as an example to the rest of us heathens.

The reason I ask is because of the link below.

Seven-day week.

Apparently the Panchasiddhantika mentions "Monday," and the Garga Samhita mentions the seven-day week, Sunday to Saturday. Wiki dates the Panchasiddhantika as around 5th century AD, and the Garga Samhita as around the 1st century BC.

The Panchasiddhantika seems to be a collection of five texts, which includes the Surya Siddhanta. And two of the texts in the Panchasiddhantika, the Pulisa Siddhanta and the Romaka Siddhanta, are attributed by Wiki to the Greeks and Romans, respectively.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 06 Dec 2013 08:38

Ah, that's P. V. Kane. OK. Why didn't I make that connection before.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Dec 2013 08:49

He is also known as Wrangler Kane as he was Wrangler's at Cambridge

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 06 Dec 2013 11:18

Think this is the place to ask: In the mahabharat, when the pandavas leave for varanavrata, vidura tells yudishtra that there are dangers ahead at his destination and that he must take precautions. He does this in a mlechcha tongue and yudishtra replies in the same tongue. Kunti later asks him what vidura and asked and what he replied to it, in the unknown tongue. Is there any information on what this language was?

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 06 Dec 2013 22:11

sudarshan wrote:Ah, that's P. V. Kane. OK. Why didn't I make that connection before.

Sudarshan ji,

Read his section on "Timing of Mahabharata - Dating" from "Kalivarjya' chapter, from Volume 3 of his "History of Dharmashastra".

I have not seen such meticulous and splendid work before (exception, Dr. P V Vartak, and to an extent Prof. R N Iyengar (however RN Iyengar has gone on wrong track, from which he is finding difficult to come around)) on Dating of Mahabharata. This includes so called 125+ attempts specifically focused on dating of Mahabharata (includes Holay, Daftari, Vaidya, Ketkar, Karandikar, Kota Venkatachalam, Shastri, RN Iyengar, Velandi Aiyer, Srinivas Raghavan, Narahari Achar, Mohan Gupta, Anand Sharan, Subhash Kak, Rajaram, Frawley, on and on...).

On the other hand, in case of "History of Dharmashastra", Dating of Mahabharata was a peripheral subject.
---------
While reading 'History of Dharmashastra', I sensed many times, that he wanted to say more on the subject he was discussing.. but tamed himself in order to do justice for the subject under consideration...'Dharmashastra".

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 06 Dec 2013 22:58

ramana wrote:He is also known as Wrangler Kane as he was Wrangler's at Cambridge

Ramana Gaaru,

Are you confusing Kane with Wrangler Parnajape? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._P._Paranjpe)

Both did come from same area - Dapoli/Ratnagiri.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Dec 2013 11:05

http://timesofindia.speakingtree.in/spi ... vana/47850

Sita was the daughter of Ravana?

!?!?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Dec 2013 18:04

SaiK thaat post should go to psy ops and not this thread.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 10 Dec 2013 18:13

@SaiK One of the versions I have heard is that Sita was born to Ravana but based on the prophecy that she will bring death to him/Lanka if she is there. So he discards her at child hood. JAnaka finds Sita while tilling the earth. Fate has it that Ravana brings her back to Lanka without knowing that she was his daughter and the destruction happen.

Vamsi.R · Post by **Vamsi.R** » 10 Dec 2013 19:53

SaiK wrote:http://timesofindia.speakingtree.in/spi ... vana/47850

Sita was the daughter of Ravana?

!?!?

Amangalam Prathihatam Avu Gaaka

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2013 21:18

Its part of the many Ramayanas made available by AK Ramanujam who collected all versions and treated them as equal to discredit AdiKavi Valmiki who was a contemporary and wrote the original poem!!!!

The root is the Jain and Buddhist theocracies distortion to promote their tirthankars.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 11 Dec 2013 00:12

ramana wrote:Its part of the many Ramayanas made available by AK Ramanujam who collected all versions and treated them as equal to discredit AdiKavi Valmiki who was a contemporary and wrote the original poem!!!!

The root is the Jain and Buddhist theocracies distortion to promote their tirthankars.

And also new versions created in Indonesia, China, Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam etc. which added/modified original theme/relationships based on whim but also local religion and other sensibilities (or lack thereof). "Epilogue on Ramayana' by Mr. Yardi documents these versions (including Buddists and Jain modifications).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Dec 2013 00:52

Well the Ramayan is so touching to the heart that many communities develop an affinity and write their own versions. That does not mean that Valmiki Ramayana is not the prime source.
Example the tribals(Chencus) in Andhra Pradesh seek inspiration in Narasimha Avatar and claim that Lakhsmi Devi was born as tribal girl (Chenchu Lakshmi) who pacified the ferocious avatara and nromalized him.

Vyasa and Pothana Bhagvatham say that Prahalada stuti pacified the ferocious avatara.

The point is bhakti in any form appeases the Lord.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 11 Dec 2013 02:39

Did the Mahabharata ever take off in Indonesia, China, Japan, etc. the way the Ramayana did? If not, why? MB is such a fantastic story - it would be surprising if it didn't find resonance the way the Ramayana did.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 11 Dec 2013 21:08

sudarshan wrote:Did the Mahabharata ever take off in Indonesia, China, Japan, etc. the way the Ramayana did? If not, why? MB is such a fantastic story - it would be surprising if it didn't find resonance the way the Ramayana did.

Mahabharata also is popular in Indonesia (don't know about China or Japan). Many of my Indonesian friends know characters from Mahabharata (not only Hindu, but with Christian or Islamic faith) and will readily recount instances (sometime bit distorted from original.. but then that is true within India itself). They can recall these characters, not unlike we would in India, in describing some instance, comparing a situation or personalities.

BTW, Mahabharata is full of comparisons drawn from Valmiki Ramayana.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 11 Dec 2013 22:29

OK, did not know that. OT here, but the amount of soft power India wields is unbelievable. A guy from Ghana broke out in smiles on hearing I was from India. Apparently in Ghana, they have movie showings every Friday, showing movies from India. This guy was eager to know whether people really sang and danced in streets in India all the time. I had to disillusion him a little. The highlight was when he declared in front of a bunch of Americans, Brazilians, and assorted Africans, with a big smile on his face, that "India is special" (his exact words).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Dec 2013 01:07

My wife had a fellow student from Vietnam in the mid 80s who wanted to know if we had any videos of ramro?
I decoded it as NT Rama Rao and gave him some tapes. Apparently he is a big hit in Vietnam with French sub-titles.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 12 Dec 2013 04:15

In one of the Vietnamese movies, Richard Gere played a part. The scene was that of a temple where a group of devotees keep reciting something, Richard Gere enters the temple and the chanting grows louder. I was surprised when I was able to recognize that the chanting mantras are in Sanskrit, only that their pronunciation mimicked that of the local dialect.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 12 Dec 2013 04:53

sudarshan wrote:Did the Mahabharata ever take off in Indonesia, China, Japan, etc. the way the Ramayana did? If not, why? MB is such a fantastic story - it would be surprising if it didn't find resonance the way the Ramayana did.

djakarta (I think - but certainly it is a prominent landmark in some big city in Indonesia) has "Krishna-Arjuna on a Chariot (probably signifying Arjuna vishada yoga)" bronze statue which is widely photographed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2013 05:03

sudarshan wrote:Did the Mahabharata ever take off in Indonesia, China, Japan, etc. the way the Ramayana did? If not, why? MB is such a fantastic story - it would be surprising if it didn't find resonance the way the Ramayana did.

Indonesia has a strong Ramayana and Mahabharata culture, and also via their plays (which are very appreciated).

Bali is many steps beyond, and retains Hindu culture and is amazing apparently. It has Mahabharata everywhere.

Ghatotkacha vs Karna (I think this is what Matri ji is referring to)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2013 05:05

This is Arjuna

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... statue.JPG

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2013 05:06

K vs G from another angle
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/satria-g ... 286264.jpg

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 12 Dec 2013 05:26

One of those (~~but I remember seeing photo of another statue from 1980s in a private collection~~ no it is the same from that collection different angle and it is not private any more - it is on the net).

Mahabharata Monument

Another

Patung Arjuna Wiwaha

Wiwaha if it is vivAha (marriage) then is it depicting pandavas defeating other suitors who gang up after Arjuna is successful in shooting down the "matsya yantra"?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 12 Dec 2013 05:44

look at this image "plaosan temple" which is termed a buddhist temple but the architecture is very reminiscent of a couple of shiva temples in my native village.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 12 Dec 2013 08:12

Worked on and off Indonesia for the past 3 years, friendliest and most chilled out people I've ever seen. Makes one almost believe that the massacres of '98,'68 and '46 never happened.
Hinduism/Buddhism have very deep roots here... and despite the Wahabi attempts since 19th century, it hasn't made much inroads. Except Aceh, which had Islamic rule for 11 centuries and "marches to a different beat" compared to the rest of Indonesia. There are changes in the tone and thrust of the Indic epics and stories and myths though.... the divine nature has been chipped away slowly and the heroic aspects have been brought to the front. So devoutly Muslim parents don't see the problem with naming their daughter Sita..... the fidelity and integrity of the Sita of Ramayana is surely a thing to emulate!

It's strange since Islam's spread, by no means as violent as in India/Persia, was stoutly contested by the profoundly Hindu/Indic Majapahits and Balinese ityadi. Wonder why they didn't try to eradicate the past completely.... even Medieval Indonesia had it's share of bigot rulers, but then again it was a Malay/Aceh thing more than Javanese or other Indonesian ethnicities. Lotsa theories on this.
BTW, the Indonesian spec forces have had great success in it's anti-terrorist efforts and their Kopassus/Densus teams have a good reputation.

PS: Heh, for irony, the leader of the FPI is one Suryadharman Ali.

PPS: Just for reference - when an Indonesian tells you "I susu in tea, Pak?", he doesn't mean "Paki, I'm gonna p1ss in your tea" - he's asking you if you want milk in it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2013 19:27

My shake my head moment was when a tamil driver in KL took out a big denomination Indonesian Rupiah note and it had Ganeshji on it. See, he says, they respect!! In India, cue baying mobs of leftists on street if such a move were ever contemplated. A senior manager whom I know, of Chinese origin, suddenly remarks the other day - of course I should visit India, I am Buddhist. Net, many worldwide are ready to accept the civilisational positives from India. But for the past60 years, Nehruvian India has been stuck in denial about its own heritage and has been busy dancing to its own convoluted understanding of secularism and what not, and making a hash of it. Even its own expats feel alienated from the motherland. The Tamil driver above, wanted to visit TN, but was wary (basically it was not "his"). Sad.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Dec 2013 23:55

My Japanese American colleague and wife went on a pilgrimage trip to the Buddhist holy places. I lent him my India tour book so he could get familiar. He went on tourist package from Tokyo.

Another J-A colleague I convinced him of his closeness to Hindusim via his Buddhist roots.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 13 Dec 2013 00:11

Reading the mahabharat these days, having never read it fully but only in parts as stories at my grandfather's lap. Interestingly, read that when yudishtira takes charge of the new palace at indraprastha built by Maya whom arjuna and krishna spare,

said,--"Then that chief of men, king Yudhishthira, entered that palatial sabha having
first fed ten thousand Brahmanas with preparations of milk and rice mixed with clarified butter and
honey with fruits and roots, and with pork and venison. The king gratified those superior Brahmanas,
who had come from various countries with food seasoned with seasamum and prepared with vegetables
called jibanti, with rice mixed with clarified butter, with different preparations of meat--with indeed
various kinds of other food, as also numberless viands that are fit to be sucked and innumerable kinds of
drinks, with new and unused robes and clothes, and with excellent floral wreaths. The king also gave
unto each of those Brahmanas a thousand kine. And, O Bharata, the voice of the gratified Brahmanas
uttering,--'What an auspicious day is this! became so loud that it seemed to reach heaven itself. And
when the Kuru king entered the palatial sabha having also worshipped the gods with various kinds of
music and numerous species of excellent and costly perfumes, the athletes and mimes and prize-fighters
and bards and encomiasts began to gratify that illustrious son of Dharma by exhibiting their skill. And
thus celebrating his entry into the palace, Yudhishthira with his brothers sported within that palace like
Sakra himself in heaven.

I wonder when they turned vegetarian. Was it due to the sramana ascendancy that this happened?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2013 00:13

Read the Shanti parva where Bhisma extolls the merits of vegetarianism and links it to ahimsa.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 13 Dec 2013 00:53

^^ The desirability of vegetarian diet was sought through Vedic times (for bodily but also mental benefits), at the same time, desire/attachment to non-veg food was recognized. Here is quote from Veda (can not tell which one, but Jnani's here can shed more light)

गोभिष्ट रेम अमति दुरेवा , य़वेन क्षुध पुरुहूतः विश्वाम

(Praising a cow, "Thanks for providing us your essence (milk, yogurt, butter, ghee, etc.) which allows us to control/push away our bad/inferior desires, otherwise 'Yava' are sufficient to satiate world hunger".)
---------
Experiments in Ahimsa: A long history can be seen through ancient Indian civilization.

(1) Parashu-Rama KILLING Kshatriyas because they were violent (Trying to diminish violence with violence). Supposedly attempted 21 times. Of course, in the process he became Kshatriya himself. Still an interesting experiment.

(2) Bhagavan Krishna is credited with popularization of 'Vegeterianism" and preservation of Cows (Go-pal Krishna). Hari Vamsha has descriptions of 'parties' in Dwarka, where sumptuous meat dishes (buffalo, deer, and others) were prepared for the participants and there were also sumptuous vegetarian dishes for likes of Uddhava and Krishna. (Tradition of separate Veg and Non-veg sections at Buffet , is at least 7500 years old.)

(3) Later on, Buddhism, Jainism added to the movement in their own ways.

My 2 cents.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 13 Dec 2013 22:53

Nilesh ji, here, Rajiv Malhotra ji answers the question of vegetarianism, killing of plants etc:

Sri Koteswara Rao garu mentions that meat eating is proscribed to brahmins since the start of Kaliyuga.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 14 Dec 2013 01:05

My Japanese American colleague and wife went on a pilgrimage trip to the Buddhist holy places. I lent him my India tour book so he could get familiar. He went on tourist package from Tokyo.

Another J-A colleague I convinced him of his closeness to Hinduism via his Buddhist roots.

Ramana garu, on travel channel few months back they show cased Japan, it appears there is a tradition among Japanese where in people who have troubles in life and those who are elderly, they take a 21 temple pilgrimage. This trip encircles main island of Japan more or less. They have to walk carrying a walking stick and supposed to wear a dress for that occasion. Seeing the dress, people invite them home, give them place to rest and sleep and even give them something to eat on the way. Many do it. I thought it is a wonderful gesture on their part. And one of the temple hosts a statue of Yama. The depiction of Yama is very similar to our Gods/Goddesses in India, several arms, each arm carrying a weapon etc. I felt at home as if Japan and India are somehow spiritually connected.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 15 Dec 2013 00:44

Recent Thai movie (with subtitles). It packs so many points (too many to list) related to impact of Indian civilization in the South and East Asia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYebEFPzV3c

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 21 Dec 2013 01:20

Don't know how to cross post. I did post on traditional beliefs (e.g. Gita-Jayanti, Bhishma Ekadashi) and their conflict with each other but also with the evidence from Mahabharata text,on 'Archeo-astronomy and dating of Indian texts' thread.

FYI - for those who may be interested.

LakshO · Post by **LakshO** » 21 Dec 2013 06:08

Prasad wrote:Reading the mahabharat these days, having never read it fully but only in parts as stories at my grandfather's lap.

Sir, can you share more information on MB book(s) you are reading currently? Author, publishing company etc. Is this in English or original Samskrith or other Indian languages (Hindi, Tamizh, Telugu etc)? How do you rate it? I hope it is not one of Wendy Doniger type cr*p.

Thanks for the reply.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 24 Dec 2013 01:17

Conflicts in Ancient Narratives

It is a common occurrence for conflicting statements to be present in a specific Ancient document. This may take various forms.

(1) Conflicting observations (e.g. Astronomy, chronology, details of specific incidents) between multiple versions of the same narrative (e.g. multiple manuscripts of Mahabharata, Ramayana, etc.)
(2) Conflicting observations can exists within different chapters/areas of the same manuscript

This leads to,

(1) Some researchers focusing on ONLY specific references, either in an arbitrary fashion or because the reference is convenient for their proposal.
(2) Other researchers act as if these conflicts do not exit, even when these references have direct implications for the very theory these researchers are proposing
(3) Still other researchers simply act as if these references do not exist or have no implications on their theory, to pull themselves out of this misery. Yes, they do consider this a misery (instead of an opportunity to grown knowledge, theirs and those of humanity at large)

The scientific approach is to:

(1) Note down all observations/references – both corroborating and conflicting with one’s theory
(2) Explain why one chose specific reference (from set of conflicting references) as corroborative evidence and also show advantage/superiority of such selection. The best criteria is to show why such a selection makes a theory more testable, and hence more corroboration (or falsification) is achieved
(3) While ‘acceptance’ of a specific reference, that is convenient to an individual proposal is a good first step, next necessary step must include critical discussion of conflicting references and why a researcher chose one reference over the other.
(4) This means, such conflicting statements can be discussed ONLY in the context of a specific theory or theories.

I want to end this note with stating of one such conflicting reference from Valmiki Ramayana:

Valmiki Ramayana states that Rama was married to Sita when he was 16 years old and that he and Sita lived in Ayodhya for one year before leaving for Vanavas, for 14 years.
Against these statements, there are conflicting statements within the same Valmiki Ramayana where Rama and Sita are stated to have lived in Ayodhya for 12 years (as opposed to 12 months ~ 1 year) before leaving for Vanavas and they were 25 and 18 years old, respectively.

It is not unusual for readers, researchers and critics of Ramayana to discuss such subject – ad infinitum – and without reaching a specific conclusion, but more important, without any GROWTH OF KNOWLDEGE.

How would one solve this problem? Your thoughts are welcome.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 24 Dec 2013 02:05

LakshO wrote:
Prasad wrote:Reading the mahabharat these days, having never read it fully but only in parts as stories at my grandfather's lap.
Sir, can you share more information on MB book(s) you are reading currently? Author, publishing company etc. Is this in English or original Samskrith or other Indian languages (Hindi, Tamizh, Telugu etc)? How do you rate it? I hope it is not one of Wendy Doniger type cr*p.

Thanks for the reply.

Sanskrit originals are all over the web. I read the english translation by kisori mohan ganguli. That is also all over the web. I try to read the two together, trying to improve my sanskrit at the same time as trying to understand the sanskrit version better as time goes on by reading the english translation immediately after.
Reading on adobe reader sucks btw!

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Dec 2013 06:53

Nilesh, could you please translate the word "Yava"? It tickles my mind as if I should know the word.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 25 Dec 2013 08:25

matrimc wrote:Nilesh, could you please translate the word "Yava"? It tickles my mind as if I should know the word.

यव means barley. Java is named after that, by the way.