India-US Strategic News and Discussion

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 07:32

Anand K wrote:During the Kargil War, Indians in US led an effective media campain against Paki perfidity. Why am I not seeing that kind of push here?

That's because, a section of the usual and/or misled Indian community, is not seeing (or does not want to see) the truth. Kargil, OTOH, was an attack by a nation almost universally accepted as an 'enemy' by Indians.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2013 07:33

The case in india was filed after mea advised her to, when this phone call incident came to light. Also, when tour maid vanishes after going out to get groceries, you wouldn't file missing persons report? Given that she doesn't speak english well, despite it being new yoek and not out of the ordinary.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 07:34

On the Devyani issue, do we have a new Robin Raphael-avtar in the State Deptt ?

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 07:34

LokeshC wrote:
She did walk away and became an illegal immigrant did she not? So where was the bonded part of the labor? She was free to leave anytime she wanted.

That is exactly my point!

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 20 Dec 2013 07:38

I hope they counter sue in a civil case for the back rent that she had to pay, the food she ate for each day she was there, and also for the stress and tension caused by her unannounced disappearance, in return for full minimum wages provided for the time she was serving DK.

And the defamation lawsuit....but that does not release her of charges filed against her. DAs are very smart. Like a game of chess they know how counter lawsuits would be filed and they can get multiple layers of protection.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 07:38

sanjaykumar wrote:Rescinding the customary Christmas booze is one thing (probably well stocked anyway), but removing barricades from the embassy is hitting below the belt. Three quarters of the world wants to do the Americans in. Of course that is America's problem; that they are not safe in Latin America, Mexico, large parts of Asia but decency demands that India not, even passively, open them to the truck bomb. The latter is seared into American consciousness and it just would not do to have India associated with it.

I think the security of the embassy in Delhi is just fine. America can help itself in this area by giving a strict warning to its TFTA TSP buddies that they better not try anything on US chanceries. That will take care of it once and for all.

Now shall we talk about those attacks on Indian embassies and consulates in places like Afghanistan, paid for by US dollars, i.e., my and likely your, tax dollars?

saip · Post by **saip** » 20 Dec 2013 07:38

Dipanker wrote:
venug wrote:Why dont you ask her? Or go back read the pages, seems like you havent been doing the reading. Start 20 pages back. She was missing when The diplomat filed missing complaint. What do you term it? An excursion party? Or a stroll ?
I am aware of the issue. My point is that Sangeeta Richard is an adult. If she does not want to work for DK, it is her prerogative. Can you deny that?

So if I bring a maid from India and she disappears one day without telling me are you saying I should not be worried? She could have met with an accident and may even suffered from amnesia and required my attention. What you are saying would apply to those maids that were not brought from from India but wequre hired in the USA.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 07:39

'Walking away' meant 'returning' to India because she did not have a visa status or even a passport to stay in the US, things that she was demanding in her process of blackmailing.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 20 Dec 2013 07:39

No she doesnt habve proper visa for her to work outside her employment. So she cannot leave as she pleases. So what is your point again? Visa rules make her employment restricted, may be you want to call that bonded labour

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Dec 2013 07:40

so she can leave anytime she wants , files a complaint , gets a visa from govt , her family is also given visa even though a case is lodged , and nothing is wrong with it ???

can a IT guy do the same ??? go on a company visa and abscond there and claim the company did fraud with his visa papers ??? who will suffer ?? not only the company but himself as well , he will be deported back, so is the maid still being allowed to stay back ???and their claim that they cant find her is silly

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 20 Dec 2013 07:40

SSridhar wrote:That's because, a section of the usual and/or misled Indian community, is not seeing (or does not want to see) the truth. Kargil, OTOH, was an attack by a nation almost universally accepted as an 'enemy' by Indians.

I can understand that fledgeling (or even a well established) NRI/PIO might not want to face the wrath of an ambitious PIO attorney or some Cold-Warriors/EJ crusaders in Soggy Bottom.... but IMO this issue has wide ramifications for all Indians in the US and US-India relationship. Man up!
With sahasrakodipranaams to Dr. Dang, "Yeh thappad ki goonj sun rahe ho? Hum ko yeh thappad ki goonj hamesha yaad rahega. Ab is goonj ki goonj tumhe suna degi, jab tak zinda rahoge tab tak suna degi." .Yeah right. I wish.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 07:46

sanjaykumar wrote:. . . but decency demands that India not, even passively, open them to the truck bomb. The latter is seared into American consciousness and it just would not do to have India associated with it.

Apart from truck bombs, there are many other stand-off methods of attacks. What can GoI do ? Make the whole of Delhi a fortress just for the sake of a few Americans ? There has to be a proportion and balance. The barricading of an entire stretch of public road for so many years for the sake of these Americans should not have been done in the first place. The Americans cannot claim the removal of this extraordinary measure as endangering their lives.

saip · Post by **saip** » 20 Dec 2013 07:51

There are no barriers for French embassy and the Chinese embassy. Time India treated all embassies alike, just like the US!

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 20 Dec 2013 07:54

SS - should India not demand, the safeguard of US not supplying weapons to TSPA, in return for putting up barricades for the US consulates in India? After all, US weapons to Pakistan also puts the lives of our families at risk, much like the lack of barricades for US consulates may put US lives at risk.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 07:54

ManjaM wrote: ...
It appears that this relationship is headed downhill and they are perfectly ok with that. To my untrained eye, US appears to be readying to downgrade the relationship with India ahead of the expected government change in 2014. This downgraded relationship would be a new datum from which the new GoI will have to negotiate and make concessions to US in order to restore the relationship to levels before this outrage.

We might say they are preparing the ground for a Modi PMship, during which India will be turned into a "bad actor" in US and much of world media, worthy of US punishment. That would be a way out of having to walk back the insult to Modi.

Would the US go to that extent just to avoid saying to Modi, "what has happened has happened, let's make a new beginning?" (and I think Modi would be fine with that). I think it would. We mustn't underestimate the role echandee plays in the minds of the thekedars of the world, and wannabe thekedars like TSP.

Call this a modest ahead-of-curve prediction: Look ahead to a Modi PMship faced with color revolution by oppressed Muslims and "seculars", forcing him to either abdicate or take stern measures, the latter confirming the "bad actor" narrative.

Modi will need all the help he can get. I hope he and his team will exhibit the qualities of head and heart that the coming challenge will demand.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Dec 2013 07:54

I always try to put an optimistic spin on some very shabby things. This is one of them. Not that I am naive. I will leave it at that.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 20 Dec 2013 07:55

BTW, since Christmas/New Year is-a-coming, are we going to see some slowdown or cooling down or even some Yule spirit?
Soon the media will loose interest, the US folks have the Holidays, their folks and dissected turkeys waiting for them.....

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 07:56

venug wrote:No she doesnt habve proper visa for her to work outside her employment. So she cannot leave as she pleases. So what is your point again? Visa rules make her employment restricted, may be you want to call that bonded labour

My point was that Sangeeta is an adult and if she does not want to work for DK and walk out ( and in the process become an illiegal immigrant in US), right or wrong, it is totally her choice.

When you say it is not her choice, I can't agree with you.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 08:03

I still dont see why these fellows deliberately did this. Bangladesh issue (per IFS), espionage (newsinsight) or just plain arrogance.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 08:04

Cosmo_R wrote:
nachiket wrote: Hope the govt. is looking at options to smuggle Khobragade out of the US clandestinely. It doesn't look like the SD is willing to relent. Getting her and her family back to India by hook or by crook is paramount. She must not be allowed to be held hostage. Disguise her and give her a passport with a false name if necessary or smuggle her over the border into Mexico, but get her out./quote]

Not a chance Sundance. The FBI and NYPD are just waiting for that to happen. I don't have much faith in IFS cloak and dagger stuff.

It will now have to be an 'exchange'.

The situation looks bad for DK. US echandee will not allow her to go home after having taken matters this far.

I have to take back what I said earlier on this forum about not using article 377. There is no hope for a decent India-US relationship for some time to come. India has to whatever tools are available to show that it will take care of its own, and hostile interests putting hands on them will pay a price.

To start with, hotel records in notorious gora pedophilia havens like Goa (no offense to Goa here) should be scrutinized with a fine-toothed comb; it is a good bet that some in the US diplo staff would have gone on nice holiday there now and then. That would be one of the perks of what is considered a hardship posting, I should think.

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 20 Dec 2013 08:04

Ofcourse it is her choice but the same Amrika bahadhurs would turn around and claim India is allowing its citizens to use the A-3 visa as a back door for immigration - I am very scared because I see the whole state becoming like a Nazi/Police state what with unlimited snooping and no limits to fingering other countries' citizens and diplomats.

Disgusting - I am not very sure the average American is too different - If ever there's a "Night of broken glass" our situation is Ram Bharose only.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 08:05

Lets put it this way, it was her choice to walk away -- illegally. She did that and no one stopped her, until the dirty lawyer showed up and started threatening.

These aren't obtuse concepts to grasp are they?

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 08:07

Raja Bose wrote:
Dipanker wrote: The point here is that as a grown up adult if Sangeeta decides to quit her job and walk off, even though that makes her an illegal immigrant in US, it is still her prerogative.

She is not a bonded laborer.
Then where's the question of DK being involved in human trafficking as alleged by the DA?

If there is no case against her then she will not be found guilty by the justice system.

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 20 Dec 2013 08:07

sanjaykumar wrote:Rescinding the customary Christmas booze is one thing (probably well stocked anyway), but removing barricades from the embassy is hitting below the belt.

No, this is a fair measure. The US of A'holes deserves to be hit below the belt, but unfortunately the GOI may not do it.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 08:10

One of the reasons that we are seeing indignation in India is because most Indians see this as a betrayal of a friend. This is a problem with Indians and not the Anglo Saxon mind.
This is a complete lack of understanding of how the Anglo Saxon mind functions. The Americans have no such problems understanding us and our emotional nature and playing to it.
What we view as friendship - flattering words, lavish dinners, dancing to native music is actually modus operandi. In a western corporation your boss may ask you about your family and holidays and the next instant coolly terminate you. They do not have a conflict there. For the Indian mind it is not so easy. Other variables will come into the picture.
Likewise the American establishment may enjoy Indian food, promote capable Indians etc etc but is also able to take actions to suit themselves.
They are neither friends nor enemies. They are opportunists. Infact those who have a viscerally strong bias towards Pakistan are actually easier to deal with because we can understand them.
The sooner we Indians understand this the better. It has been 400 years

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Dec 2013 08:10

Dipanker wrote:
Raja Bose wrote: Then where's the question of DK being involved in human trafficking as alleged by the DA?
If there is no case against her then she will not be found guilty by the justice system.

This is Lahori Logic

You do realize the accusation of human trafficking is coming from the DA, not some private individual? So what is the basis of that allegation again?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 08:11

Dipanker wrote:
LokeshC wrote:Actually the repeated attempts to file a missing persons report to NYPD show that DK was concerned and valued Richard's services as a maid. It only turned ugly when the Richard's shady lawyer called for an out of court settlement (i.e. a bribe to keep quiet).
I seriously doubt this version of the story. Sangeeta case was taken up by an NGO, her lawyer belongs to this NGO.

If they really wanted to stop trafficking, they should go the criminal case route in every case they find. Not just that, they should never ever try to settle for an out of court agreement (which they tried to do). An out of court settlement would carry and zip-your-mouth clause, which means they cannot voice it or publicize it as an issue. A principled NGO will never settle for it, since they are non profit usually.

Lets assume that this NGO really wanted to stop trafficking: They should go after Irish/Russian Mafia (after white slave trade).

You can doubt all you want. The records of NGOs in India is very clear, they are not too different in the US either.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 08:11

hulaku wrote:So Devyani managed to wrangle a flat in Adrash as well.

Strong political connections she surely has.

No like.

If anyone were to do a proper study of how various semi-oficial salaried sections of India: government officials, media persons, etc. acquire property, I think we will find that DK and her father probably fall into the median range.

It is not a good practice (started because said salaried sections used to make absurdly low wages, which had to be made up by various grants of plots etc.) but that is not for this thread.

We shouldn't be bringing in such a topic in this discussion, any more than we would say "no like" to the fact she may be wearing silk sarees (which represent cruelty to silkworms, seriously).

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 20 Dec 2013 08:11

No apology or withdrawal of charges, says US

Quite combative.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 08:12

KLNMurthy wrote: Not a chance Sundance. The FBI and NYPD are just waiting for that to happen. I don't have much faith in IFS cloak and dagger stuff.

It will now have to be an 'exchange'.

The situation looks bad for DK. US echandee will not allow her to go home after having taken matters this far.

I have to take back what I said earlier on this forum about not using article 377. There is no hope for a decent India-US relationship for some time to come. India has to whatever tools are available to show that it will take care of its own, and hostile interests putting hands on them will pay a price.

To start with, hotel records in notorious gora pedophilia havens like Goa (no offense to Goa here) should be scrutinized with a fine-toothed comb; it is a good bet that some in the US diplo staff would have gone on nice holiday there now and then. That would be one of the perks of what is considered a hardship posting, I should think.

[/quote]

If GOI knows about these pedo havens and has not acted till now then it is reprehensible. Certain things cannot be used as a leverage and action delayed.
Please do not bring something into the picture which makes the waters murkier.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 20 Dec 2013 08:13

I hope the gloves come off and we see blood on uncle's face. Let's accept the gambit.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 08:14

Anand K wrote:No apology or withdrawal of charges, says US

Quite combative.

It has become a big deal for the US now. They have to show the world who the boss is. They can no longer withdraw the charges without losing face. Not happening.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 08:14

Dipanker wrote: If there is no case against her then she will not be found guilty by the justice system.

Here is an assumption flag: You are assuming (very naively) that the US justice system is fair. Thats probably why more than 90% of black males are in prison doing prison labor for waay lower than minimum wage. And they come and teach us about slavery. LOL.

saip · Post by **saip** » 20 Dec 2013 08:17

If there is no case against her then she will not be found guilty by the justice system.

Yea right and I have a bridge in Brooklyn and will sell it to you cheap. The US (Preet Barar said as much) does not believe in Indian Judiciary but you would in US judiciary.

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 20 Dec 2013 08:17

Yes, it is very naive to think there will be any justice here (especially given the callous way they handle truth over here) - see all the statements going back and forth and no sincerity in the regret expressed. I think only language that is realized here in USA is that of force. Is it possible for them to conduct an airlift straight from the embassy in DC or from the consulate in NY?

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 08:19

Jarita wrote:One of the reasons that we are seeing indignation in India is because most Indians see this as a betrayal of a friend. This is a problem with Indians and not the Anglo Saxon mind.
This is a complete lack of understanding of how the Anglo Saxon mind functions. The Americans have no such problems understanding us and our emotional nature and playing to it.
What we view as friendship - flattering words, lavish dinners, dancing to native music is actually modus operandi. In a western corporation your boss may ask you about your family and holidays and the next instant coolly terminate you. They do not have a conflict there. For the Indian mind it is not so easy. Other variables will come into the picture.
Likewise the American establishment may enjoy Indian food, promote capable Indians etc etc but is also able to take actions to suit themselves.
They are neither friends nor enemies. They are opportunists. Infact those who have a viscerally strong bias towards Pakistan are actually easier to deal with because we can understand them.
The sooner we Indians understand this the better. It has been 400 years

On top of that, US is a very "punishment" oriented society unlike us Indians who are a "forgiveness" oriented society, this a major cross cultural difference between Americans and us Indians.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Dec 2013 08:20

Dipanker,

Don't be too sure of that. Preet Bahara is blowing this case out of proportion. As it is, his team's first mistake was to not refer the case to the US Dept. of State and give them warning that if DK didn't leave voluntarily, she would be arrested. The 2nd mistake was -

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/ ... JE20131220

In an unusual move, the United States flew the family of the housekeeper, Sangeeta Richard, out of India. Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said attempts had been made in India to "silence" Richard and compel her to return home.
"It needs to be asked what right a foreign government has to 'evacuate' Indian citizens from India while cases are pending against them in the Indian legal system," an Indian foreign ministry spokesman said on Thursday.

In order to do this, there has to be coordination between Dept. of State and Justice. So, the issue is being forced in order to ruin relations. There is NO choice, but for the GoI to diplomatically retaliate. For years until the early 1990s, and I don't know if its true anymore, the US Embassy and Consulates in various locations, including Bombay and Calcutta, were predominantly hiring Indian Christians to work at US facilities. As domestic help, security and clerical.

Now, Preet Bahara is trying to be the next incarnation of Elliot Spitzer, minus the hos, and this is one way he's trying.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 08:21

Also note the "slavery" in India media articles that started popping up all over the place before the incident. One of our posters TSJones knew exactly what the charges were going to be even before the case broke completely.

1) She is not going to get a jury of her 'peers', they are not going to be Indian and they are not going to be all brown.
2) She is not going to get an unbiased jury which can consider facts separate from rhetoric of slavery that media has been serving up.

One should be a moron to think justice will be served here. The only justice she is going to get is possibly the longest prison sentence for this cooked up crime in a super-max prison.

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 20 Dec 2013 08:21

But this very same "punishment when deserved" society begged for mercy from the Singapore Govt. when its' own citizen(s) were involved!! So it is one set of rules for me and another for you always with the US of A.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 08:22

Dipanker wrote:
LokeshC wrote:
If you are working in the US on an Indian passport, she needs a valid visa to do so. She always has the choice of returning to India and seeking a normal US work visa. That would have been the legal thing which any sane person would do. This was a clear case of wanting to immigrate by hook or by crook.

On the Visa she had, it was a Visa that bonded her into an employment contract with DK. If she did not like it, she should not have entered into it in the first place.

The point here is that as a grown up adult if Sangeeta decides to quit her job and walk off, even though that makes her an illegal immigrant in US, it is still her prerogative.

She is not a bonded laborer.

At the end of the day, this is a jingo forum.

If India were to be the worst, most exploitative, caste-ridden, dirty horrible country in the world, with only greedy and abusive people, and if US were to be the most egalitarian and humane regime in the world and there is a power play by the US against India, whose side will you take? That is the spirit of the discussion here.

I know what my answer would be. Do you?