India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 20 Dec 2013 10:03

rohitvats wrote:As per Kabil Sibal on one of the news channel, the next hearing has been scheduled for 13th January and if the US Court was to pronounce the verdict, then no one in USA can do anything. The window of opportunity is between Indian diplomat being shifted to US Mission and the next hearing date.

But what we need to understand is whether the diplomatic immunity will be applied in retrospect. I think the course of action when Devyani receives the complete diplomatic immunity is for her to fly out to India.

I doubt that they will let her fly out when she is being charged with a felonious offence. And the US state department has already made it clear that they are not going to give her retrospective immunity.

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 20 Dec 2013 10:03

You have clearly missed the point. Be smart. Don't be caught with your hand in the cookie jar and with your pants down. When you do something in writing don't be casual please be thorough. No chaltha hai attitude.

krishnan wrote:
krithivas wrote:I will trust the written report because Americans don't play the stupid games Devyani or for that matter of fact GoI let Indian diplomats play and walk into such land mines. I fully support Devyani's unconditional release and demand an apology for her custodial rape. But technically she "lied" because GoI was casual with the legalese. It works well if the waters are calm. Americans never will entangle themselves into such stupidity even for expediency sake. Any written submission from USA will have the i's dotted, t's crossed, legally vetted, thorough, water tight and clean.

so US people are saints.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 10:06

Dipanker wrote:
If it has not sunk in yet, this thread is about considering India as ONE unit and not about exposing splits in India for the US to exploit and then calling it rational.

Unfortunately the jingoistic prescription of forum can lead to even bigger loss of face for India. We need to handle this very carefully.

Yeah that doesn't include wasting time spouting legalistic mumbo-jumbo and waving pom-poms for US justice system. Need to keep the eye on the ball, and be clear that it is the right ball.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Dec 2013 10:06

GoI's balls are being squeezed....the question is what is the decision massa wants in its favor? Is there some defense deal, some foreign policy deal, something unpopular to the voting masses, which the usually pliant MMS is refusing to do after getting routed in the recent elections and not wanting to risk it before the general elections? If the Congi government makes a display of acting tough and massa makes a show of not backing down and then still releases DK thereby giving Congi gobermint a "hard fought" victory...then what is it that massa is expecting in return under the table? I am getting curious.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 10:07

Another CT - Could this be orchestrated by congress + European powers to ensure Indian tilt towards Europe and continuing congress raj in India. Afterall Maino does represent the Europeans in particular.
Has everyone been taken for a ride?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 10:09

Karan M wrote:
rohitvats wrote:As per Kabil Sibal on one of the news channel, the next hearing has been scheduled for 13th January and if the US Court was to pronounce the verdict, then no one in USA can do anything. The window of opportunity is between Indian diplomat being shifted to US Mission and the next hearing date.

But what we need to understand is whether the diplomatic immunity will be applied in retrospect. I think the course of action when Devyani receives the complete diplomatic immunity is for her to fly out to India.
RV, you know after this incident, I think the manner in which MMS & co tied India to US Arms procurement is really going to harm us. It basically gave them additional leverage which they didn't have till date. They stop/delay spares for our C-17s, C-130s - those are white elephants. Only if the GOI/MOD had chosen EJ for the LCA instead, at least its good luck, that MMRCA went French.

Maybe that was the objective. Maybe it is a war between two factions of the ruling establishment in India run by two factions outside.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Dec 2013 10:10

chacha is not going to drop the charges that much is clear from the trendline here. they will levy a huge fine and put her away in a some minimum security prison for a couple years (making a hue and cry they are putting in min security 'soft' prison as a huge concession to our sentiments and we should be thankful)

so either waste time giving minor pinpricks in delhi or do something useful like catching some of their culinary agency boys and girls and giving them the same treatment and filing charges under indian law.

it might not save our diplomat from whatever sentencing they are planning, but it will make sure this wont happen again if we follow through and hit their agents here with full force of law.

----
unrelated point is why why why were all sorts of unilateral priviledges extended in things like airports and immigration not just to their diplomats but even staff of the american school and american center ? we never got such perks there . which other countries are given these perks ? are friendly neighbours like nepal, bhutan, bd , SL, thailand, singapore, myanmar, malaysia extended these perks or is it just reserved for the one and only Massa and his pack of gora camp followers (uk, aus, canada...). even TSP is better case for extending these perks because they are our neighbours and we have to live with them forever.

there must be a public AUDIT of these priviledges in a XLS country by country to see what we get and what they get - it must all be equalized. whoever authorized all these decisions must atleast be shamed as a bootlicker if not punished.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Dec 2013 10:11

KLNMurthy wrote:At the end of the day, this is a jingo forum.

If India were to be the worst, most exploitative, caste-ridden, dirty horrible country in the world, with only greedy and abusive people, and if US were to be the most egalitarian and humane regime in the world and there is a power play by the US against India, whose side will you take? That is the spirit of the discussion here.

I know what my answer would be. Do you?

Seems like a self-goal to me ! If one is not able to defend the case on merit and has to declare oneself openly as a 'jingo', then the 'jingo' case is already lost... !

The reason for the outrage in India has nothing to do with jingoism as you put it, but fundamental and unassailable merits that cannot escape Indians even if they can escape the more dim-witted Americans-

1. An Indian diplomat was subjected to perverted US 'orifice search' techniques that may well be considered acceptable in American culture among the natives there, but which Indians would regard as serious human rights violations if applied without valid reasons. Restricting such abominable practices to American citizens or even non-diplomatic residents is fine - but when they apply to a diplomat who is supposed to represent India, the line has very clearly been crossed.

2. Americans have shown scant regard for the due process of Indian law by spiriting away Richards and her family - while at the same time pontificating on the due process of 'American law'. The double standards is glaringly obvious to anybody with the ability to think straight.

3. Diplomats are historically governed more by the law of reciprocal favors than completely by the laws of the host countries. This is very much how matters have operated across the world..and while serious human rights lapses by diplomats certainly cannot be condoned - the current matter was more in the nature of a technicality. Such technical violations have been condoned in the case of India for American and other diplomats as well as by the US for a host of other nationalities.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Dec 2013 10:13

Dipanker wrote:
LokeshC wrote:
If you are working in the US on an Indian passport, she needs a valid visa to do so. She always has the choice of returning to India and seeking a normal US work visa. That would have been the legal thing which any sane person would do. This was a clear case of wanting to immigrate by hook or by crook.

On the Visa she had, it was a Visa that bonded her into an employment contract with DK. If she did not like it, she should not have entered into it in the first place.

The point here is that as a grown up adult if Sangeeta decides to quit her job and walk off, even though that makes her an illegal immigrant in US, it is still her prerogative.

>> sangeeta richards is wanted in a fraud case in delhi high court. she is therefore a fugitive from Indian law.

>> in spite of being there on official passport and an employment agreement she went missing without notifying GOI or DK

>> she tried to blackmail DK

>> in spite of DK's exemplary treatment of richards (they treat me like family she wrote in her letter) she treacherously conspired with a foreign govt to frame an Indian diplomat

I don't see why we should have *any* sympathy for a selfish woman who brought criminal charges against a lady who took good care of her for just a greencard.

She is not a bonded laborer.

she is not but a lot of US lota bearers are acting like they are !

Dipanker wrote:
If there is no case against her then she will not be found guilty by the justice system.

is this the same 'justice system' that has institutionalized custodial rape ?

sorry, the US (in)justice system is not exactly known for fair judgement. it is notorious for human rights abuses and political manipulations. we would be dolts to trust it.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 10:14

ramana wrote:Rudradev
The US covert action was to fix Indian diplomat s eith the charge of human trafficking.
Hence the long elaborate cover and a groomef maid was sent to DK and at right time she was sprung. .

This points to the question that how many such traps are in place to be sprung at opportune time? All IBDAs need to be vetted ffrom all angles and a review of this systemneeds to be done so as to avoid the future traps.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 10:14

Does anyone know which church Sangeeta Richards belongs to

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 20 Dec 2013 10:15

rohitvats wrote:As per Kabil Sibal on one of the news channel, the next hearing has been scheduled for 13th January and if the US Court was to pronounce the verdict, then no one in USA can do anything. The window of opportunity is between Indian diplomat being shifted to US Mission and the next hearing date.

Isn't that Kanwal Sibal?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 10:19

Sangeeta always wanted to work abroad: Mother-in-Law

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sange ... w/1209409/

Sangeeta Richard, whose complaint triggered the events leading to diplomat Devyani Khobragade's arrest, was always keen to work abroad, according to her mother-in-law. "She always wanted to work abroad. She knew I was working at a diplomat's house and wanted me to look for a similar job for her," said Agnes, mother of Sangeeta's husband Philip Richard.

Sangeeta, 42, who hails from Kerala, married Philip 20 years ago after three years of courtship, then apparently left his house three days later because he was not earning enough. "I had reservations about the marriage but my son was in a hurry. She was staying in Ghaziabad with her father and had no job then," Agnes said.

"Sangeeta left the house on the third day as she was not happy with his financial condition. When she realised she was pregnant, she came back and delivered a daughter in my house. She and my son moved to Fatehpur Beri soon after," she said.

The Indian Express found the Fatehpur Beri house locked. Philip has left for the US.

Radha, a close friend of Sangeeta, claimed it was she who had referred Sangeeta to Devyani Khobragade (whose father has named another referrer). Radha is working with a diplomat in the Canada High Commission.

"Devyani ma'am had offered me the job but I had to turn it down as my husband had passed away and there was no one to take care of my children. I suggested Sangeeta's name," said Radha. "A few days ago, I asked Philip about Sangeeta as I was very worried. Philip told me she is in the US and fine. He told me he would go there soon."

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 10:20

Our masters tut tut at how we uncivilized barbarians are behaving.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/20/opini ... obusM4JUhQ

Editorial
India’s Misplaced Outrage
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD
Published: December 19, 2013
India’s overwrought reaction to the arrest of one of its diplomats in the United States is unworthy of a democratic government. Officials in New Delhi have inflamed anti-American outrage instead of calling for justice, especially for the domestic worker who is at the heart of the case.
Today's Editorials

For Op-Ed, follow @nytopinion and to hear from the editorial page editor, Andrew Rosenthal, follow @andyrNYT.

The charges brought against Devyani Khobragade, the deputy consul general in New York, by Preet Bharara, the United States attorney in Manhattan, should concern anyone who values worker rights. Ms. Khobragade was arrested last week and accused of submitting false documents to obtain a work visa for her housekeeper and paying her far less than the minimum legal wage. Prosecutors say the diplomat promised American authorities she would pay $4,500 a month but actually paid just $573 a month and made the housekeeper work far more than 40 hours a week.

Instead of concerning themselves with that injustice, many in India seem incensed that Ms. Khobragade was arrested at all.

It is not unusual in India for domestic employees to be paid poorly and required to work more than 60 hours a week. But such practices are not allowed under American law, and abuses by anyone should not be tolerated, regardless of their status. It was puzzling that Secretary of State John Kerry issued a statement on Wednesday expressing regret for the incident. All diplomats, including Ms. Khobragade, presumably are made aware of their legal obligations and American procedures before accepting an assignment in the United States.

Even more disturbing is the fact that Indian officials would take extreme steps to retaliate for the arrest — they removed security barriers surrounding the American Embassy compound. Despite the way many Indians seem to view the case, it is not a challenge to India’s honor. It is a charge against one diplomat accused of submitting false documents to evade the law. Ms. Khobragade’s lawyer said she would plead not guilty and challenge the arrest on the grounds of diplomatic immunity, which prosecutors say does not apply in this case. In any event, she will have a full opportunity to defend herself against the charges.

Meet The New York Times’s Editorial Board »

Brown sahibs are also offended at indians being offended. Learn your place, you petulant types.. etc.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/19/world ... -politics/

"There is a lot of protest in India. I personally believe they are politically motivated," Aseem Chhabra, a columnist for Mumbai Mirror newspaper, told CNN. "We have elections coming up in May."

"There's a Cold War legacy when India was at odds with the United States over a range of issues," said political scientist Sumit Ganguly.

"All of these people are trying to demonstrate how tough they can be, how nationalistic they can be, how concerned they are about this woman," he said. "They are engaged in high drama. If Narendra Modi says it's terrible, then Rahul Gandhi has to say it's despicable."

"Something we don't want to talk about or think about is how we treat domestic workers. For God's sake, we treat them like chattel," Ganguly said. "This is a national shame we have not confronted."

Ganguly said Indians need to check what he views as their overreaction.

"It's very poorly thought out. This is the most foolish and petulant behavior," he said.

Ganguly said he feared the Khobragde incident has the potential to be quite damaging.

"I think U.S. patience will run out at some point," he said.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 20 Dec 2013 10:20

Raja Bose wrote:GoI's balls are being squeezed....the question is what is the decision massa wants in its favor? Is there some defense deal, some foreign policy deal, something unpopular to the voting masses, which the usually pliant MMS is refusing to do after getting routed in the recent elections and not wanting to risk it before the general elections? If the Congi government makes a display of acting tough and massa makes a show of not backing down and then still releases DK thereby giving Congi gobermint a "hard fought" victory...then what is it that massa is expecting in return under the table? I am getting curious.

Rajababu,
You are quite right. MMS' tatta is being squeezed. And I do not think Preet Bahara is a major player in this game. While he has the power to arrest Dr. K, he could not import the family of Richard. This shows a long term planning form higher ups. But they may have forgotten that Dr. K brings another angle to this. She is Dalit, and in this election year can not be abandoned to the wolves, even if he wanted to.
Gautam

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Dec 2013 10:21

chanakyaa wrote:Bharara's or State Dept's logic of prosecuting personnel of foreign missions, for not following law by the book (as if their own citizens) seems strange. It assumes that their own diplomats follow the law in other countries where they are posted. What if GoI decides to review each and every document, by putting it under microscope, to find mistake from the forms filled by foreign nationals. Not that GoI's forms are clear and self-explainatory. It seems mathematically impossible that their own people sitting in consulates filled the forms correctly. What if GoI is successful in finding mistakes and decides to prosecute? Very strange..

as long as GOI doesn't show balls to do it and go ahead and throw a couple of US diplomats in lock-up they will be justified with their assumption.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Dec 2013 10:22

What US does with finesse and aplomb is use its super power status power cleverly keep the debate focused on its interests. In the case of DK, they exploit this technical legality and bring out in the open conditions of maids, servants etc based on as I said strict technical legalities. And then of course, lace that with gory details on India's pitfalls. Thats what all the condescending US editorials and media are focused on.

The US public, racist and jingoistic to begin with fall for that crap. Then of course, Indian uncle Toms, useless Indian liberals, self-loathing, India-hating Indians, and naive ones (like the kujiwaal type aam admis disgusted with Indian corruption, VIP privilage etc) fall for this US is just and fair and free balderdash hook, line, and sinker.

Buried in all this is US conduct (how much they paid maids and servants in 3rd world countries), US history, US double standards, US underclass and the indignities they suffer, how they use Uncle Toms of color to perpetuate stereotypes and their policy, and above all, real motives of US in this case (executed by those in state dept and their Preet barara and Nisha desai type slaves), and can never surface.

Has anybody monitored what TSP RAPE is making of this? They must be having a ball. Ditto Chinese.

There is a silver lining in everything. And what this legal rape of an Indian diplomat has shown is that how hollow, how skin deep all this nonsense of India US strategic relations has been ever since this these has been trumpeted after Clinton danced with Rajasthani rural women. This rape brings out where India really figures in US scheme of things. Its good that this reality has come out. And its time for nationalists in India to introspect.

India & US are not natural allies. US is a racist, colonial, xenophobic, capitalist empire whose natural allies are its white brethren in Europe and of course pays slavish obeisance to Israel. While this does not mean India go down the route of Islamist rif raff, burning effigies, etc, but Indian foreign policy must take this hard reality into question. After all, nobody can dispute US's undoubted might as a superpower, and India needs US much more than US needs India.

Above all, India media must celebrate & appreciate India's native Hindu civilization, not exhibit the type of euphoria over slum dog millionaire awards. Such slavishness only invites contempt and derision. A lot can be learnt from this episode.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 10:39

The one thing from this incident has been that hopefully our babus got a crash course in the reality of Indo-US relations. Many seemed to have been postulating that India and US are natural allies and that India automatically had "arrived" in some way or the other with respect to the US.

In 2014, we will (hopefully) get a new Govt in place, which may perhaps behave in a more realistic fashion instead of being swayed by rhetoric.

A look east policy, revitalized ties with Russia (albeit with some good riders and no freeloading from their side) and even South America, should be on the cards.

US seems to think that any nation which wishes to be its ally, is basically a pushover and can be treated any which way.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 10:43

Karan M wrote:The one thing from this incident has been that hopefully our babus got a crash course in the reality of Indo-US relations. Many seemed to have been postulating that India and US are natural allies and that India automatically had "arrived" in some way or the other with respect to the US.

In 2014, we will (hopefully) get a new Govt in place, which may perhaps behave in a more realistic fashion instead of being swayed by rhetoric.

A look east policy, revitalized ties with Russia (albeit with some good riders and no freeloading from their side) and even South America, should be on the cards.

US seems to think that any nation which wishes to be its ally, is basically a pushover and can be treated any which way.

Was this the intended outcome of the EU faction in the government?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Dec 2013 10:43

nuchang wrote:
This indian slave master/human trafficking diplomat has no shame and no basic human decency in enslaving a fellow human being, and a fellow Indian maid, one of her own! It is time to let these Indian slave masters go — there is no place for these upper “caste”, priviledged by birth, spoiled, Indian brats diplomat in a humane, equal and fair society in America.

Remember the infamous indian american cheaters such as Rajat Gupta, former McKinsey CEO and Goldman director, Bob Moffat, senior vice president and general manager of IBM’s Systems and Technology Group; Rajiv Goel, director of strategic investments at Intel Capital; Anil Kumar, a director at management consultancy McKinsey & Co; and Raj Rajaratnam, the founder of the $7bn Galleon Group hedge fund.”, and his brother cheater Rengan Rajaratnam (yes, Raj is from Sri Lanka Tamil, but still the same indian cheating and “caste” culture, which bully and trample upon the dignity of the poor and “lower class” people, especially their own, at the same time, kiss up western, white elites. )

This indian diplomat is so typical of the Indians in America and she simply got what she really deserved for cheating the system and for bullying and being so mean to a poor maid. That is so typical of an Indian American.

Indians are known to be mean and disrespectful to “lower class”, poor people; while at the same time, kissing up and pretending to be nice to “upper class” or white people. This is from its thousands years of “caste” culture and hundreds of years colonialism under Britain.

In my opinion, in percentage terms, Indians are the meanest people and most blatant liars and most racist people (towards poor people only, including their own — poor indians, and other South Asian and Chinese, not towards British or American white elite.)

Nowadays, I started to notice the “rich” Indian Americans started to treat even poor American whites the same way they treat poor Indians and Asians.

Dec 19, 2013 10:04pm EST -- Report as abuse

http://www.reuters.com/article/comments ... JE20131220

this is the best

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Dec 2013 10:45

What this little twit Sumit Ganguly and many like him don't realize is that this is not about the plight of servants and laboourers in India, but it is about DK and how she was humiliated and raped by US law enforcement for at best a technical legality. Bringing in all the extraneous stuff about India is just what US does and he falls for it.

He also seems to be ignorant of the fact that he may have a silly little "South Asia" professor title at Indiana university, but the vast majority of the racist US Joe six pack also look at his black ass (I have seen his black face, not his ass, but I doubt the color will be any different) as chattel that he self righteously pontificates about how Indians treat servant maids.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 20 Dec 2013 10:45

Singha wrote:chacha is not going to drop the charges that much is clear from the trendline here. they will levy a huge fine and put her away in a some minimum security prison for a couple years (making a hue and cry they are putting in min security 'soft' prison as a huge concession to our sentiments and we should be thankful)

so either waste time giving minor pinpricks in delhi or do something useful like catching some of their culinary agency boys and girls and giving them the same treatment and filing charges under indian law.

it might not save our diplomat from whatever sentencing they are planning, but it will make sure this wont happen again if we follow through and hit their agents here with full force of law.

----
unrelated point is why why why were all sorts of unilateral priviledges extended in things like airports and immigration not just to their diplomats but even staff of the american school and american center ? we never got such perks there . which other countries are given these perks ? are friendly neighbours like nepal, bhutan, bd , SL, thailand, singapore, myanmar, malaysia extended these perks or is it just reserved for the one and only Massa and his pack of gora camp followers (uk, aus, canada...). even TSP is better case for extending these perks because they are our neighbours and we have to live with them forever.

there must be a public AUDIT of these priviledges in a XLS country by country to see what we get and what they get - it must all be equalized. whoever authorized all these decisions must atleast be shamed as a bootlicker if not punished.

Singha-saar, +1.
Please forward your thoughts to NaMo camp.

To all other BRFites, enough of dissecting what DK/GoI should or shouldn't have done. Legal proceedings will roll in its own speed. But the single most important issue is what are the leverages does GoI has?

Who is holding DK's bond? her faimily & friends? Indian Consulate?

An extreme step: She can take refuge in another third country's embassy and ask for asylum, but that will be a loss of face for GoI. Squeezing multinationals? Will that work?

Also, if DK spends time in prison then INC will be fried alive in the next election, and NaMo will have a cake-walk. Is NCP part of UPA now? If so, they will be fried alive too........

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 10:47

The more I read this, the more I believe that this is an EJ case gone haywire. The primary goal being the "human trafficking/ slavery" allegations since some of the other faultlines are losing oomph. It also makes things harder for Indians outside especially with help and so.
The EJ lobby is very powerful and wanted to punish the upper class Hindu.
The prosecutors office was shown the carrot of a big case and went all guns. Technically, there was nothing wrong with what they did.
Sangeeta and family are just opportunists who went for green card etyaadi and were used by the EJ's.

Maybe the most visible reason is the right one.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 10:48

Kati wrote:
Singha wrote:chacha is not going to drop the charges that much is clear from the trendline here. they will levy a huge fine and put her away in a some minimum security prison for a couple years (making a hue and cry they are putting in min security 'soft' prison as a huge concession to our sentiments and we should be thankful)

so either waste time giving minor pinpricks in delhi or do something useful like catching some of their culinary agency boys and girls and giving them the same treatment and filing charges under indian law.

it might not save our diplomat from whatever sentencing they are planning, but it will make sure this wont happen again if we follow through and hit their agents here with full force of law.

----
unrelated point is why why why were all sorts of unilateral priviledges extended in things like airports and immigration not just to their diplomats but even staff of the american school and american center ? we never got such perks there . which other countries are given these perks ? are friendly neighbours like nepal, bhutan, bd , SL, thailand, singapore, myanmar, malaysia extended these perks or is it just reserved for the one and only Massa and his pack of gora camp followers (uk, aus, canada...). even TSP is better case for extending these perks because they are our neighbours and we have to live with them forever.

there must be a public AUDIT of these priviledges in a XLS country by country to see what we get and what they get - it must all be equalized. whoever authorized all these decisions must atleast be shamed as a bootlicker if not punished.

Singha-saar, +1.
Please forward your thoughts to NaMo camp.

To all other BRFites, enough of dissecting what DK/GoI should or shouldn't have done. Legal proceedings will roll in its own speed. But the single most important issue is what are the leverages does GoI has?

Who is holding DK's bond? her faimily & friends? Indian Consulate?

An extreme step: She can take refuge in another third country's embassy and ask for asylum, but that will be a loss of face for GoI. Squeezing multinationals? Will that work?

Also, if DK spends time in prison then INC will be fried alive in the next election, and NaMo will have a cake-walk. Is NCP part of UPA now? If so, they will be fried alive too........

That really worries me because it gives massa huge leverage with our "will do whatever it takes to stay in power GOI". Was that the intention?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 10:51

Jarita wrote:
Karan M wrote:The one thing from this incident has been that hopefully our babus got a crash course in the reality of Indo-US relations. Many seemed to have been postulating that India and US are natural allies and that India automatically had "arrived" in some way or the other with respect to the US.

In 2014, we will (hopefully) get a new Govt in place, which may perhaps behave in a more realistic fashion instead of being swayed by rhetoric.

A look east policy, revitalized ties with Russia (albeit with some good riders and no freeloading from their side) and even South America, should be on the cards.

US seems to think that any nation which wishes to be its ally, is basically a pushover and can be treated any which way.
Was this the intended outcome of the EU faction in the government?

Jarita ji, i wonder if EU is any better. After all they are tied to various US led groups too. And who can forget the sanctimonious advise dished out to India at time of Kandhamal by several EU nations, each acting more arrogant than the other.

IMHO, in past 8 years, many of these foreign embassies/nations, got unparalleled leeway to interfere in and attempt to influence Indian affairs. They took this as the norm and have taken India and its establishment for granted.

But all it takes is one strong establishment and a lot of apple carts can be upset.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 10:53

Acharya wrote:
nuchang wrote:
This indian slave master/human trafficking diplomat has no shame and no basic human decency in enslaving a fellow human being, and a fellow Indian maid, one of her own! It is time to let these Indian slave masters go — there is no place for these upper “caste”, priviledged by birth, spoiled, Indian brats diplomat in a humane, equal and fair society in America.

Remember the infamous indian american cheaters such as Rajat Gupta, former McKinsey CEO and Goldman director, Bob Moffat, senior vice president and general manager of IBM’s Systems and Technology Group; Rajiv Goel, director of strategic investments at Intel Capital; Anil Kumar, a director at management consultancy McKinsey & Co; and Raj Rajaratnam, the founder of the $7bn Galleon Group hedge fund.”, and his brother cheater Rengan Rajaratnam (yes, Raj is from Sri Lanka Tamil, but still the same indian cheating and “caste” culture, which bully and trample upon the dignity of the poor and “lower class” people, especially their own, at the same time, kiss up western, white elites. )

This indian diplomat is so typical of the Indians in America and she simply got what she really deserved for cheating the system and for bullying and being so mean to a poor maid. That is so typical of an Indian American.

Indians are known to be mean and disrespectful to “lower class”, poor people; while at the same time, kissing up and pretending to be nice to “upper class” or white people. This is from its thousands years of “caste” culture and hundreds of years colonialism under Britain.

In my opinion, in percentage terms, Indians are the meanest people and most blatant liars and most racist people (towards poor people only, including their own — poor indians, and other South Asian and Chinese, not towards British or American white elite.)

Nowadays, I started to notice the “rich” Indian Americans started to treat even poor American whites the same way they treat poor Indians and Asians.

Dec 19, 2013 10:04pm EST -- Report as abuse
http://www.reuters.com/article/comments ... JE20131220

Welcome back Acharya san.

In the above comments case, it seems our PRC 50 centers are quickly making hay when the sun shines.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Dec 2013 10:55

For those abusing Bharara and calling him names, remember he is just used here by SD and GOTUS...plain,and simple. He is impartial in terms of who he goes after including those Russians till his leash was yanked. So he is a useful attack dog that's all. The real game is being played at a different level. But what is that burning need which GOTUS has from the GOI??? That will probably surface long after this drama is forgotten, when some IFS babu leaks it in his memoirs.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 20 Dec 2013 10:56

....Is massa planning to settle the case just b4 the election and that gives INC a huge "victory over massa" boost in the election? Looks far-fetched. The real victim, that is DK, is a dalit, and that will give other parties a long stick to beat INC.

Vriksh · Post by **Vriksh** » 20 Dec 2013 10:58

Can we game out the worst case and best case scenario using this incident as a template. The way I see it the USA has carefully thought this through the consequences given the more than 6 months preparation time. CIA and State Dept probably ran some simulations involving various outcomes and how to manage them to suit their interests.

Likely scenarios why this happened are explained below.

India/Indians/Indian System by omission or commission has not be able to deliver something of "great significance" to the US perhaps in the last 6-12 months and the matter has been simmering ever since. What this "great significant" thing is something that can fall into the following categories 1) Continued Leverage over Indian Govt Functions in the long term as evidenced by the likely exit of the thoroughly compromised UPA leadership 2) Shorter Term access to things like Bangladesh SOFA 3) Mid-term controlled Handover of Kashmir to Pakistan or the US itself.
OR
4) This is simple Cockup which has snowballed

I discount item 4 since this was apparently well planned by the US State Department/CIA.

1+2+3) Could be attributed to the rise of NaMo
2+3) Could be attributed to adamance of IFS cadre on some issue and/or non deliverance of UPA govt

In order to Punish IFS or GoI or even the Indian people for leaning towards NaMo this jhapad has been given. Logical progression from now on will be as follows
1) USASD will not back down or apologize to India (US considers apologies after it has achieved its goals and maybe in 30 years from now: akin to Internment of Japanese People during WW2 for which the US has not apologized as far as I know, some POTUS may have expressed regret).
2) Media propaganda of Indians and India Govt as a elitist, supporting slavery, being casteist, rapist and christian,muslim,women oppressing society in the western controlled press has already started and will reach a fever pitch.
3) Given the atmosphere the Judicial system in the US will be managed to get a conviction and Jail sentence for DK.
4) GoI cannot do anything since it is compromised and is looking desperately for a face saving exit either from the US or by managing the IFS or Indian Public opinion.
5) Indian escalation Like Pakistan we will have useless effigy burning parades and processions to bring back DK ala Dr Afia of Osama fame which the US has till date only laughed about. A similar template will be used for DK.

What are the options for India?

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 20 Dec 2013 10:59

How was the issue of Strauss-Kahn wriggled out by France? (apart from being gora...)

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 11:00

^^^ We will have to be like the "MULE"

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Dec 2013 11:03

I have a bad feeling about this.

if India backs down without reciprocity, basically the Indian govt is telling the entire world that they can't even protect their own employees on foreign land who are there on diplomatic assignment, forget Indian citizens who are temporarily traveling or living abroad.

this is an unraveling of the Indian State itself, in many aspects. because India follows the Westminster system, the govt institutions are not prone to drastic changes like in US, in terms of leadership, if such a need is perceived.

the Indian State is much more "constant" in its very structure, so if the Indian State proves itself incapable of protecting one of their own diplomats, and further, if they don't even retaliate on equal terms, it is in essence an admission of erosion of power that is bestowed on every sovereign govt of the world.

this could be a sign of things to come if the State Apparatus of India doesn't take this for what it is: A CHALLENGE TO THE VERY LEGITIMACY OF THE INSTITUTIONS WHICH MAKE UP THE INDIAN STATE.

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 20 Dec 2013 11:03

Karan M wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/20/opini ... obusM4JUhQ

The charges brought against Devyani Khobragade, the deputy consul general in New York, by Preet Bharara, the United States attorney in Manhattan, should concern anyone who values worker rights.

>> The murders committed by Raymond Davis should also concern anyone who values human lives (I know, it was a couple of Piggies).

Instead of concerning themselves with that injustice, many in India seem incensed that Ms. Khobragade was arrested at all.
>> Instead of concerning themselves with the injustice of killing a couple of folks and running over another by Raymond Davis, many seemed to be incensed that he was arrested by the Pakis at all.

It is not unusual in India for domestic employees to be paid poorly and required to work more than 60 hours a week. But such practices are not allowed under American law, and abuses by anyone should not be tolerated, regardless of their status. It was puzzling that Secretary of State John Kerry issued a statement on Wednesday expressing regret for the incident. All diplomats, including Ms. Khobragade, presumably are made aware of their legal obligations and American procedures before accepting an assignment in the United States.

>> It is not unusual for people in TSP to be killed at random. But such practices are not allowed under Pakistani law, and abuses by anyone should be tolerated, regardless of their status. It was puzzling that the Sec. of State paid a visit to TSP and demanded an exoneration based on diplomatic immunity for a non-consular contractor.

Even more disturbing is the fact that Indian officials would take extreme steps to retaliate for the arrest — they removed security barriers surrounding the American Embassy compound. Despite the way many Indians seem to view the case, it is not a challenge to India’s honor. It is a charge against one diplomat accused of submitting false documents to evade the law. Ms. Khobragade’s lawyer said she would plead not guilty and challenge the arrest on the grounds of diplomatic immunity, which prosecutors say does not apply in this case. In any event, she will have a full opportunity to defend herself against the charges.

>> Even more disturbing is the fact that TSPians would take extreme steps to retaliate for the shootings - they burned down NATO tankers, burned US flags and encouraged car and suicide bombs. Despite the way may TSPians seem to view the case, it is not a challenge to TSP's echendee. It is a lone ranger killing a couple of suspected hoodlums who would have robbed Raymond at gun point. Mr. Raymond Davis demanded to be released and was combative on the grounds of diplomatic immunity and him being a TFTA, which TSPians say did not apply in the case. In any event, he was given the full opportunity to exonerate himself in true Islamic fashion.

"I think U.S. patience will run out at some point," he said.

>>US patience did not run out when TSPians went on a rampage (and continue on extended rampages) for a parody on YouTube! Ombaba himself came out appologizing to assuage the hurt feelings. No bullshit of wishy washy 'regret', but calls for peace and understanding.

However revolting it is to use TSP as an example, I think the mirror needs to be held for these so called editors. I am disgusted with the pompous tripe that they are dishing out. I am surprised that the media never highlights the Raymond Davis case and the work around was found with everyone of the aggrieved parties 'voluntarily' agreeing to pardon the accused. They didn't have to be evacuated to ensure there was no threats from the TSP gobermint to these parties.

member_27845 · Post by **member_27845** » 20 Dec 2013 11:04

We should quickly slap a counter charge on US staffers in India
A reciprocal arrest is the quickest way to solve this issue , instead of appealing to them to drop charges against KD
Also , isn't law enforcement a state subject in India

Surely we too have zealous / over zealous officers in some state where there are US consulates who can shoot first and ask questions later ( I meant by way of slapping a legal case )

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Dec 2013 11:05

No way the USA backs down over this. People don't understand how the US works.
Diplomat committed a personal error in judgement and must now pay the personal price. The US system is built on extracting this price.
Hiding behind diplomatic immunity for personal action is weak.

BTW the optics of this in American public opinion is horrible. It is impossible for folks to defend India in this when pointed questions are asked in USA. Back away folks, we are not yet strong enough to challenge. American media is unhappy over the way India has defended the perpetrator. The whole thing looks like feudal privilege gone wrong from outside. There will be consequences for India one way or another if we persist.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Dec 2013 11:06

sanjaykumar wrote:Rescinding the customary Christmas booze is one thing (probably well stocked anyway), but removing barricades from the embassy is hitting below the belt.

Two can play at the transactional game. I don't believe the embassy is compensating Delhi for the barricades or for the loss of use of that street. If it can pay up and get the zoning changed, sure thing.

In any case, this would be fit case for the new Lokpal to investigate. I find it hard to believe that a public street could have been closed off without some government official getting paid off privately.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Dec 2013 11:07

Theo_Fidel wrote:No way the USA backs down over this. People don't understand how the US works.
Diplomat committed a personal error in judgement and must now pay the personal price. The US system is built on extracting this price.
Hiding behind diplomatic immunity for personal action is weak.

BTW the optics of this in American public opinion is horrible. It is impossible for folks to defend India in this when pointed questions are asked in USA. Back away folks, we are not yet strong enough to challenge. American media is unhappy over the way India has defended the perpetrator. The whole thing looks like feudal privilege gone wrong from outside. There will be consequences for India one way or another if we persist.

back with a bang....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Dec 2013 11:08

Karan M wrote: Jarita ji, i wonder if EU is any better. After all they are tied to various US led groups too. And who can forget the sanctimonious advise dished out to India at time of Kandhamal by several EU nations, each acting more arrogant than the other.

IMHO, in past 8 years, many of these foreign embassies/nations, got unparalleled leeway to interfere in and attempt to influence Indian affairs. They took this as the norm and have taken India and its establishment for granted.

But all it takes is one strong establishment and a lot of apple carts can be upset.

I can name at least 4 major EU countries, including one of the big twins that act as willing cat's paw for CIA ops in India, especially in the subversion side that uses EJ's and NGO's.

we are alone and should plan that way. kalam sir's adage "strength respects strength" was never truer.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Dec 2013 11:09

Theo_Fidel:

at this point why do you even put up the tedious persona of actually caring for India as something more than being an <del>

I understand tempers are running high but get a grip
- Rahul

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Dec 2013 11:13

Theo_Fidel wrote:BTW the optics of this in American public opinion is horrible. It is impossible for folks to defend India in this when pointed questions are asked in USA. Back away folks, we are not yet strong enough to challenge. American media is unhappy over the way India has defended the perpetrator. The whole thing looks like feudal privilege gone wrong from outside. There will be consequences for India one way or another if we persist.

The optics of this case in Indian public opinion are far more appalling. And Indians are more than capable of taking on the 'dharma' debate from any number of low-IQ rednecks, thank you !