LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 22 Dec 2013 21:17

It took almost 3 years and record breaking test flights of 450 for Drdo along with HAL to achieve IOC-2 for Lca Tejas Aircraft; Tejas which achieved Partial IOC-1 in January 10, 2011, will be granted IOC-2 on 20th December of this month, which will also lead to formal induction of Tejas into Indian air force after almost 13 years in testing after its first flight in 2001. IOC-2 clearance also gives Tejas operational capability to use WVR (Within Visual Range) AAM (Air to Air Missile) like Russian made R-73 in Active combat roles and recent test conducted in Ins Hansa base in Goa over Arabian sea confirms that Tejas now has ability to track and destroy aircrafts Within Visual Range . IOC-2 also clears Tejas to be used for Ground attack roles and have cleared tests for use of laser-guided 1000-lbs bombs and unguided bombs. DRDO plans to achieve FOC by end of 2014 , FOC certification will include integration and Successful firing of Rafael Derby or the Vympel R-77 for BVR ( Beyond Visual Range ) AAM (Air to Air Missile) Roles and also will require clearance of High Altitude Bombing runs which will be carried out in Leh next . FOC will also see Demonstration of Inflight Air-to-Air refueling capability by Tejas aircraft , Fixed Refueling probes in past have been successfully integrated and tested on ground and current LSP ( limited Serial Production) Tejas Aircrafts already have required Piping and plumbing systems integrated in the aircraft so adding Refueling Probes will see lesser time consumption . FOC will also require higher AOA (Angle of Attack) from current 22-24 degrees to 28 degrees but this also has high risk element of Flame out. usually aircrafts are designed to handle much higher AOA then 28 degrees but Tejas Air-intakes which are smaller and have some design flaws might make it High Risk Test for Tejas , But ADA and HAL are planning to integrate a Backup Power Pack to allow engine restart if flames out does occur has a safety mechanism. HAL has promised to deliver first SP (Serial Production) 1 and 2 by end of March 2014 and another 2 aircrafts by end of 2014, IAF has placed orders for 20 IOC-2 Certified aircrafts and 20 FOC certified aircrafts based on Tejas MK-1. HAL Plans to start work on first Prototype of Tejas MK-2 next year and have it ready for its first flight by end of 2015, GE will be sending first batch of F414-GE-INS6 which will power Tejas MK-2 in early 2014. Tejas MK-2 will also have a newly laid out cockpit layout with better computing power since it also be housing new mission control computer, Samtel Display Systems(SDS) is also working on touch based Multi-Function Displays (MFD) for Tejas Mk-2 , which will later find its way in AMCA too . Tejas Mk-2 will also see structural changes in the aircraft which will be noticeable in wider wing span to carry extra weapons load along with extra fuel, aircraft will also have large air intakes to let the high thrust engine generate additional power for the aircraft, engine change for Tejas Mk-2 will result in the rear fuselage being changed too. Commonality between Tejas Mk-1 and Tejas MK-2 will be digital Fly by Wire (FBW) Flight Control System (FCS) along with some avionics which both aircraft will share, but sources also told us that FBW Software will require some modification in them to support structural changes which Tejas MK-2 will have.

http://idrw.org/?p=26

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2013 22:19

Anything IDRW says needs to be taken with a bucket of salt unless one succeeds in seeing where the original news is from.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 22 Dec 2013 22:28

indranilroy wrote:http://i.imgur.com/sxOemQ9.jpg

Never seen this load-out before.
....
In both cases, it is above 3.5 Tons.

If I'm not wrong the LCA has never been in the air with any load on the center line, or at least I have not seen any picture if it. Is it part of FOC ? Also is there going to be an increase in payload capacity in the Mk2? The Gripen NG has some very jingo pleasing loadouts.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Dec 2013 22:34

Feb, 2011:

Tejas Should Be Full Ops By Next Aero India: Defence Minister

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2013 22:55

A beauty.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2013 23:07

Production quality is ok - check PV2
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ug4rYwP3qh8/U ... 792391.jpg

Pic speaks for itself - NAK Browne with PSS
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F7Rof9tBXIA/U ... 770208.jpg
NAKB happy
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-itiO7dSXf1I/U ... 774674.jpg

Team Tejas NTFC
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eL_8FeJWlGw/U ... 787185.jpg

Picture to beat all pics, cries out for a caption
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Y9d7TdwNC64/U ... 735363.jpg

The best of the lot

And Aroor of course, has to put his own intrusive watermark on somebody else's pics.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 23 Dec 2013 00:10

ok being a bit greedy

any plans for a terrain mapping system in Tejas like the one in Rafale ?

for the production quality : i wish the build quality and fits and finish could be sleeker considering so much of composites
being used on the surface. Less rivets ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2013 00:16

dhiraj wrote:ok being a bit greedy
any plans for a terrain mapping system in Tejas like the one in Rafale ?

MMR was supposed to have a TFR mode. Mapping system means SAR/DBS which the radar should have.

for the production quality : i wish the build quality and fits and finish could be sleeker considering so much of composites
being used on the surface. Less rivets ?

Some parts will remain metal so fit and finish is very good considering that, look at how closely the edges are aligned and the panel quality is.
Plus, if the LCA (production variants) receive a polyurethane topcoat and RAM - the rivets etc will not be easily visible.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Dec 2013 00:18

And Aroor of course...........................................

Scent markings. Leftover animal behavior. Will fade over time.

Moving along.

FOC seems to be clear, in both scope and date. We now also have the MKII in sights.

Any inkling of a "MKIII"? Do we have *any* idea what it might encompass?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2013 00:54

MK2 itself has loads of stuff coming.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 23 Dec 2013 02:01

Seems like there is going to be a considerable reduction in space required to house the interfaces to the armaments - PIBs in Mk-1 and UPICs in Mk-2.

There seem to be 3 different kinds of PIBs in Mk-1. One for the missiles, one for the bombs - dumb or laser guided, and one for the Litening pod. In Mk-2 all these armaments are controlled by computer cards within the same type of shelf, if not the same shelf.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Dec 2013 02:06

we need a frameless HUD.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2013 02:14

Yeah, but with a HMDS its mitigated, and mostly a good to have feature rather than an essential one. The MFDs in MK2 also appear larger.

The real cool feature in the MK2 is that it will have data fusion. Another thing is its UEWS (EW Suite), IIRC it includes geolocation. AESA radar will also bring new capabilities.

DFCC Mk2 and ADC Mk2 will also be on MK2.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Dec 2013 04:02

Probably the PiBs for Derby and Python-5 have already been developed.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Dec 2013 08:24

indranilroy wrote:

Never seen this load-out before.

If that center line tank is a 1200 ltr tank, the payload is:
Fuel weight(3600 ltrs) = 2916 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks
Bombs (2*1000 lbs) = 908 kg
R-73 =210 kg
Total = 4034 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks.

Even if it is a 800 ltr tank the payload is:
Fuel weight(3200 ltrs) = 2592 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks
Bombs (2*1000 lbs) = 908 kg
R-73 =210 kg
Total = 3710 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks.

In both cases, it is above 3.5 Tons.

Indranil, you're assuming full internal fuel in the above scenario.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2013 08:37

one of the soon coming items is the mirage2000 type supersonic pointy nose fuel tanks which will reduce drag at all speeds. a welcome add and low hanging fruit imo though still needs to be qualified for all envelopes and release. I wonder why they went for these blunt nose fuel tanks in the first instance when even our Mig21Bisons have carried the pointy nose ones.
the blunt ones are more like ferry tanks.

http://www.cnbcpakistan.com/NewsPicture ... maa_tv.jpg

we always lean towards a more non-threatening dharmic look imo. The Bear always tend toward a hairy, ugly, all claws n teeth type look. khan tends to a look of sophisticated gent but with a poison knife under the bespoke suit / refined lady but 0.22 pistol in garter belt.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Dec 2013 11:25

ArmenT wrote:That aux intake/depressurization cock panel seems to have taken a beating -- it has a crumpled look to it. Any ideas what could have caused it?

even if it was hammered into place, it really is not a big issue..the last couple of LSPs featured a re-designed intake, one that is more flush.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Dec 2013 13:14

Why the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will be a game changer

Will · Post by **Will** » 23 Dec 2013 13:49

Another important factor to be borne in mind is that Tejas getting IOC has given a major boost to India’s military aviation along with the approval of several new programmes, such as Mk2 variants of Navy and Air Force; Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft; Unmanned Air Systems; Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and Medium Transport Aircraft.

When was the AMCA approved?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Dec 2013 14:10

Info on Derby and Python 5 AAM for Tejas

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/M-M ... ssiles.pdf

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2013 18:00

Austin wrote:Tejas IOC movie from the hangars of HAL ADA

Check the insane rate at which the Tejas rolls away from the video starting here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... R-RU#t=146

Someone please
1. Compute rate of roll
2. Show me other aircraft videos doing that

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 23 Dec 2013 19:37

Karan M wrote:MK2 itself has loads of stuff coming.

Mk. 2 has "SoC based Design" !!!! Wow, if you remember Karan we had previously discussed about this. This is simply awesome, lighter LRU's more weapons payload.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 23 Dec 2013 19:42

Can anybody answer my question why Kaveri is deemed as a failure when it produces the same thrust as the original GE F-404 used for the first 40 Tejas Mk 1?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Dec 2013 19:51

Hitesh wrote:Can anybody answer my question why Kaveri is deemed as a failure when it produces the same thrust as the original GE F-404 used for the first 40 Tejas Mk 1?

The thrust values mentioned in the Wiki article are the design values, not the ones actually achieved. There is a shortfall, which makes it unable to power the Tejas as it stands.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 23 Dec 2013 19:58

Is it due to weaker metallurgy or design?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Dec 2013 20:06

Hitesh wrote:Is it due to weaker metallurgy or design?

I'm not an expert on gas-turbines. However, reading various past discussions about the Kaveri on BR, it seems that lack of domestic knowhow in manufacturing Single-Crystal blades and other materials capable of withstanding extremely high temperatures and pressures being one of the key problems.

BTW, there is an entire thread on BR about the Kaveri: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351 Please read through it for a better understanding.

Will · Post by **Will** » 23 Dec 2013 20:32

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote:Tejas IOC movie from the hangars of HAL ADA

Check the insane rate at which the Tejas rolls away from the video starting here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... R-RU#t=146

Someone please
1. Compute rate of roll
2. Show me other aircraft videos doing that

Now we know what an unstable platform means

. If the Thunder ever comes up against the LCA the LCA is going to wipe its A** with it

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Dec 2013 20:47

Was the Tejas lining up behind lead aircraft for the wake test? In that video, couple of seconds before the point where the roll stats, one can see air-brakes being deployed to slow down the aircraft and align it behind the lead aircraft. Tejas then does side-to-side rolls, looses velocity, gets left behind the main aircraft and again accelerates to certain distance below the lead aircraft. And then the roll commences.

Comments?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Dec 2013 20:49

Aharam garu - Can you check out the video posted by Shiv Garu and tell us your opinion and comparison w.r.t to the roll rate with other aircraft. Basically, comparison of roll rate of Tejas as seen in that video with the aircrafts you have driven

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 23 Dec 2013 20:53

The roll rate appears to be tweaked in the latest ADA release. check the roll rate in the original clip taken from Iron fist 2013, it appears to be slower than the IOC 2 video release!!!!JMT!!!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Dec 2013 20:53

Isn't a high instantaneous turn rate pretty much a given with delta-winged designs? The Mig-21 and M2K also have a high ITR.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 23 Dec 2013 20:54

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote:Tejas IOC movie from the hangars of HAL ADA

Check the insane rate at which the Tejas rolls away from the video starting here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... R-RU#t=146

Someone please
1. Compute rate of roll
2. Show me other aircraft videos doing that

That footage is taken from a video that was published by the Tejas team on their FB site a few months ago:

http://api.smugmug.com/services/embed/2 ... height=768

Check around 2:35 mark. It's slower on the original video. It looks like the new video is a little sped up. Of course, this is not to disparage the agility of the aircraft. It looks very agile as it is.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Dec 2013 21:30

Kartik wrote:
indranilroy wrote:http://i.imgur.com/sxOemQ9.jpg

Never seen this load-out before.

If that center line tank is a 1200 ltr tank, the payload is:
Fuel weight(3600 ltrs) = 2916 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks
Bombs (2*1000 lbs) = 908 kg
R-73 =210 kg
Total = 4034 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks.

Even if it is a 800 ltr tank the payload is:
Fuel weight(3200 ltrs) = 2592 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks
Bombs (2*1000 lbs) = 908 kg
R-73 =210 kg
Total = 3710 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks.

In both cases, it is above 3.5 Tons.
Indranil, you're assuming full internal fuel in the above scenario.

Actually, I thought about it. But let us say that there are 2 1200 ltr tanks. The payload is:
Fuel weight(2400*00 ltrs) = 1872 kgs + weight of 2 fuel tanks
Bombs (2*1000 lbs) = 908 kg
R-73 =210 kg
LDP = 200 kg
Total = 3190 kgs + weight of 2 fuel tanks.

I am approximating the dry weight of each 1200 ltr and 800 ltr fuel tanks to be 70, 60* kgs respectively. So if we throw in a 3rd tank, we would be able to carry 141 litres of more fuel. I don't think it will be worth it, to pay for the additional drag.

*I had come across the DRDO/HAL unit which builds the composite tanks. Can't find it now. So I used some approximation based on empty weights of current drop tanks.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 23 Dec 2013 21:40

Indranil Saar,
Do we need to consider the weight of the pylons in your calculations ?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Dec 2013 21:42

Indranil, in that particular pic, all three fuel tanks seem to be of the smaller 800Ltr type I think.

nash · Post by **nash** » 23 Dec 2013 21:54

If all 3 are 1200ltr then it is ~4 Ton and if all 3 are 800ltr then it is ~3.2 Ton.
If it is a mixture then we can say average of 3.5 Ton. So i think the range will be 3.2-4 Ton.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 23 Dec 2013 22:00

http://ians.in/stories/2013/Dec/19/DEB_4172.JPG

Hi.Res close up photo of LCA

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Dec 2013 22:05

Avinandan wrote:Indranil Saar,
Do we need to consider the weight of the pylons in your calculations ?

included in loaded weight, along with cannon rounds, hydraulic fluid etc.

member_28353 · Post by **member_28353** » 23 Dec 2013 22:18

I like the pilot expression when missile hit its target

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Dec 2013 22:39

In that video, at 4:44, we see both 2 external fuel tanks & 2 bombs being dropped simultaneously. Might have been one of the tests where all cargo needs to be jettisoned quickly