Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 19 Dec 2013 13:25

srin,

check this link: Barak v/s Yakhont

This link says Barak 8 weighs about 1350 kg, so all arguments are moot

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 19 Dec 2013 14:41

15:06 Top Russian award for Indian cruise missile scientist: Eminent Indian missile scientist A Sivathanu Pillai has been given the highest Russian award by President Vladimir Putin for his contribution towards strengthening the ties between the two countries through the successful BrahMos supersonic cruise missile programme.

srin · Post by **srin** » 19 Dec 2013 15:16

saumitra_j wrote:srin,

check this link: Barak v/s Yakhont

This link says Barak 8 weighs about 1350 kg, so all arguments are moot

Thanks - that seems to be a far more believable number.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Dec 2013 15:38

krishnan wrote:15:06 Top Russian award for Indian cruise missile scientist: Eminent Indian missile scientist A Sivathanu Pillai has been given the highest Russian award by President Vladimir Putin for his contribution towards strengthening the ties between the two countries through the successful BrahMos supersonic cruise missile programme.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 648052.cms

"You have been awarded with Order of Merit in your special merit in developing joint venture, strengthening peace, friendship, cooperation and understanding between nations," a communication from the Russian Government to Pillai said.

Pillai and Joshi were congratulated by Defence Minister AK Antony during the meeting of Defence Ministry's Consultative Committee in Parliament for being given the Russian honour.

Order of Merit ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_For_ ... Fatherland

Congratulations to Dr Pillai , Looking forward to him delivering Hypersonic Brahmos

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 19 Dec 2013 22:30

Also looking forward to the Russians buying Brahmos and not trying to silence him with this award after his unprecedented statement recently that the time for Russia to buy the Brahmos is now. No more pussyfooting.

Famous words from Dr. Pillai:

"We are making all out effort for this. As per the inter-governmental agreement, India and Russia both have to induct the JV product and also, we can sell to some friendly countries ... we are telling the Russian government it is time they inducted it," Pillai said.

John · Post by **John** » 20 Dec 2013 03:52

srin wrote:
saumitra_j wrote:srin,

check this link: Barak v/s Yakhont

This link says Barak 8 weighs about 1350 kg, so all arguments are moot

Thanks - that seems to be a far more believable number.

Freerepublic is hardly a reliable source and how can 4.5m missile with .27 meter diameter weight 1.3 tons (AAD weight 1.2 tons and is 7.5 meters long and .5 meter in diameter), that is basically similar dimension as Aster.

IMO warhead weight figures may be inaccurate. Anyway reason Barak-8 has far superior range than SA-6/Akash is because of highly optimized flight path where as latter flies direct path to the missiles and not to mention newer propulsion system.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Dec 2013 13:55

Barak-8=NG=2=MRSAM=LRSAM is 276kg and its maximum aerodynamic range (in lofted profile?) is 50-70km. Its effective range is against cross moving low level maneuvering transonic target is unknown.

Akash is 720kg and its range is 24-27km. It is range limited due to its ground based radar also because as soon its ramjet rocket motor burns out, it falls out of the sky very quickly due to design with very high friction. But the important difference is that its “effective” range is very high against cross moving low level maneuvering transonic target but Barak range will fall rapidly in adverse real life battlefield flight profiles. Therefore the effective range of both missiles may be very similar.

AAD range may be much longer then advertised but its limitations are due to additional weight of TVC and very big warhead as its primary target is Ballistic Missiles. Though Next gen Baraks with Booster also weight around 1000-1400kg with range of 150km or so.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 23 Dec 2013 07:29

Agni III test by SFC today.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 23 Dec 2013 11:19

2nd User Trial of Agni-III Today
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 960810.ece

Stage is all set for the second user trial of nuclear capable Agni-III missile in full operational configuration. The indigenously developed surface-to-surface ballistic missile is likely to be test fired by the user (Indian Army) from a defence base off the Odisha coast on Monday.

Initially scheduled for December 18, the test was deferred and rescheduled for Monday as the downrange ships carrying tracking equipment could not sail out to the possible point of impact due to tropical cyclone Madi formed over west-central Bay of Bengal on December 10.

Defence sources said the personnel of strategic forces command (SFC) of the Army would carry out the test while DRDO would provide logistic supports. If everything goes according to the programme, the missile will be launched post noon.

Meanwhile, preparation for the scheduled test from the Wheeler Island, a test facility of the integrated test range (ITR), has reached final stage. A defence official said range integration has been completed and the missile integrated with the launcher.

“We are ready for the launch. The missile will be made vertical in the morning and fired with a dummy payload in a real time situation. Its first user trial on September 21 last year was a copy book success. We are expecting the same result this time too,” said the official.

The missile which has been used for the test was picked up randomly from the assembly line after production.

The aim of the test will be to achieve single digit accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP). This test will reconfirm the technical parameters set for the user and its readiness to handle the weapon during the time of crisis.

The mission is however significant for DRDO, which is plagued with cost and time over-runs of many indigenous projects. Agni-III is a short and stubby, two-stage missile that weighs 48.3 tonnes and is 16.7-metre tall with an overall diameter of 1.8 metres.

The missile that flies at a velocity of 5 km per second can carry both conventional and nuclear warheads weighing around 1.5 tonnes. It is propelled by solid fuel, facilitating swifter deployment compared to missiles using a mix of solid and liquid fuel.

The first test of the missile on July 9, 2006 was a failure though its second, third, fourth developmental trials in 2007, 2008 and 2010 were successful. Meanwhile, India has successfully test fired its longest range missile Agni-V which can destroy the target at a distance of 5000 km.

The Agni series of missiles is part of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) launched in 1983.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 23 Dec 2013 15:59

Any news of an actual launch ? Wish Mr. Hemant Kumar Rout was on BR !

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 23 Dec 2013 16:55

India successfully test fired Agni III from Odisha coast

Report by Odisha Diary bureau, Bhubaneswar: India on Monday successfully test fired Agni III from Wheeler Island off of Odisha coast. Strategic Forces Command of Indian Army carried out flight trial of Agni IRBM at 4.55 pm today.

Agni III is a 3000-km range nuclear capable ballistic missile. Agni already inducted into the Army. The two-stage surface-to-surface missile, which uses solid propellants, is 17-metres in length, weighs about 50 tonnes and has a diameter of two metres. It can cover a distance of 3,000 to 3,500 km in about 14 minutes. It can carry a nuclear warhead weighing about 1.5 tonnes.

The aim of the test was to achieve single digit accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP). This test reconfirmed the technical parameters set for the user and its readiness to handle the weapon during the time of crisis.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Dec 2013 18:05

^^ Love this kind of news just becoming routinue and hardly even finding a mention!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Dec 2013 18:45

Indian Strategic Forces Command launches 3000 kms Agni-3 IRBM

Official release states Quoting an SFC spokesman, “Such successful training launches clearly indicate our operational readiness to meet any eventuality as also establishes the reliability of this deterrent component of India’s Strategic arsenal”.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 23 Dec 2013 18:49

Defence ministry finally clears Barak missile deal with Israel

With the CBI moving for closure of the infamous Barak kickbacks case, the defence ministry on Monday cleared the long-pending naval case for procurement of an additional 262 Barak-I missiles for Rs 880 crore.
...

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 23 Dec 2013 20:10

Kakarat wrote:Defence ministry finally clears Barak missile deal with Israel

With the CBI moving for closure of the infamous Barak kickbacks case, the defence ministry on Monday cleared the long-pending naval case for procurement of an additional 262 Barak-I missiles for Rs 880 crore.
...

So are these 262 training rounds? Why IN should be using actual missiles for training purposes which might reduce their war stocks?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 23 Dec 2013 23:05

chackojoseph wrote:Indian Strategic Forces Command launches 3000 kms Agni-3 IRBM

Official release states Quoting an SFC spokesman, “Such successful training launches clearly indicate our operational readiness to meet any eventuality as also establishes the reliability of this deterrent component of India’s Strategic arsenal”.

Chacko, do we have any good pictures of the SFC insignia and heraldry thru the numerous press releases?

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Dec 2013 01:13

Sid wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Defence ministry finally clears Barak missile deal with Israel

With the CBI moving for closure of the infamous Barak kickbacks case, the defence ministry on Monday cleared the long-pending naval case for procurement of an additional 262 Barak-I missiles for Rs 880 crore.
...
So are these 262 training rounds? Why IN should be using actual missiles for training purposes which might reduce their war stocks?

Missiles have a limited lifespan even in storage. Typically, older stock missiles and some random new stock ones are chosen for firing.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Dec 2013 01:28

But it was the go-ahead to the Barak-I missiles, which will now require the final nod from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), which caught the eyeballs. The Navy has for long been screaming about its fast-depleting stock of missiles to arm the Israeli Barak-I anti-missile defence (AMD) systems fitted on 14 frontline warships like aircraft carrier INS Viraat and the latest Shivalik-class stealth frigates.

But to no avail. Antony is known to stop any project at the first whiff of a scandal - 15 armament companies are currently blacklisted, while the CBI has registered 23 corruption cases in defence deals in just the last three years. And this was a full-blown CBI case registered in October 2006. It named former defence minister George Fernandes, his party associates Jaya Jaitely and R K Jain, alleged arms-dealer Suresh Nanda and former Navy chief Admiral Sushil Kumar among the accused, apart from armament firms Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Rafael.

But with CBI failing to find evidence of kickbacks in the original Rs 1,160 crore Barak-I deal inked by the NDA regime in October 2000, the DAC has now cleared the fresh case after consulting the law ministry and attorney general. The MoD had consistently refused to blacklist IAI and Rafael, holding it would be "counter-productive" to national security. Israel is the second-largest defence supplier to India, with sales worth around $1 billion every year. Of the several projects currently underway, IAI and DRDO are jointly developing a long-range surface-to-air missile (LR-SAM) system for Rs 2,606 crore to arm Indian warships and a medium-range SAM system for IAF at a cost of Rs 10,076 crore.

Three things. Note:

1. This was yet another case foisted by Tejpal and INC on then NDA Govt. So a dozen years later, after all the digging, zero evidence and this after reputation of multiple NDA/ex CNS was tarnished
2. St did not even care for declining stocks and happily sat on the files. Personal desires over national aims.
3. Not just above but DSRV and AWS ships were all hung up. For what.

Just shows how broken our system is.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 24 Dec 2013 06:31

chackojoseph wrote:Indian Strategic Forces Command launches 3000 kms Agni-3 IRBM

Official release states Quoting an SFC spokesman, “Such successful training launches clearly indicate our operational readiness to meet any eventuality as also establishes the reliability of this deterrent component of India’s Strategic arsenal”.

Chacko, has any photo of today's launch been published ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Dec 2013 07:46

Thank heavens for the Barak approval! The issue was becoming grave with the imminent induction of the Vikram which needs to be fitted with its CIWS,etc.

Congrats to Dr.Pillai.he delivered the goods,3 (air-launched to arrive soon) versions for the services.Pratik,One reason why the Russians may be balking at inducting BMos is that its range is limited by the MTCR to 300km,whereas the Yakhont's range is given as 500km.One way of getting somewhere is for BMos developed tech reg. sensors,software,components,etc. being used on the purely Russian missile.I give the air-launched version better success with sales to Russia.

A third comment is whether the upper stage of the Agni-3 has a naval connotation,which could be used for our strat. missiles launched from our ATV class of subs.

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 Dec 2013 08:19

dinesha wrote:2nd User Trial of Agni-III Today
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 960810.ece

The aim of the test will be to achieve single digit accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP).

Y. Mallikarjun of the Hindu is reporting three digits, in metres, accuracy:

After a flight time of about 800 seconds, the missile carrying a dummy payload impacted the pre-designated target point more than 3,000 km away in the Bay of Bengal with an accuracy of about 100 metres, missile technologists involved in the mission said.

Agni-III test-fired by SFC personnel] Agni-III test-fired by SFC personnel

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Dec 2013 11:59

Aditya G wrote: Chacko, do we have any good pictures of the SFC insignia and heraldry thru the numerous press releases?

Someone bitten by orbat bug...

I have not come across any specific heraldry for SFC...look up the picture of AGNI or Prithvi missile RD contingents and you'll see the formation sign on vehicles which is same as Integrated Defense HQ.

On the organization front, the missile regiments seem to be organized into groups with 2-4 missile regiments under each group. So, the Prithvi Missile Group is 333 Missile Group with missile regiments numbered like 3331, 3332 and so on and so forth. Plus, I think there is a dual numbering system as well. So, 3331 Missile Regiment is also known as Unit XYZ.

What I don't know is the number of such missile groups or regiments per group. Or, the holding in terms of launchers and missiles.

Dug all this up when I had some time to waste and spent trawling the internet on a deep sea fishing expedition.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 24 Dec 2013 12:11

Philip wrote:Congrats to Dr.Pillai.he delivered the goods,3 (air-launched to arrive soon) versions for the services.Pratik,One reason why the Russians may be balking at inducting BMos is that its range is limited by the MTCR to 300km,whereas the Yakhont's range is given as 500km.One way of getting somewhere is for BMos developed tech reg. sensors,software,components,etc. being used on the purely Russian missile.I give the air-launched version better success with sales to Russia.

Philip ji, don't you think Russia would know about the range limitations of the Brahmos from the very beginning? If they had no intentions of acquiring the missile due to its MTCR limited range, why did they sign up to buying these missiles when the JV was created?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 24 Dec 2013 12:50

Yesterday's test photo by DRDO..
I wonder why no Army Camo if it was picket rendomly from the production batch..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Dec 2013 13:22

dinesha wrote:Yesterday's test photo by DRDO..
I wonder why no Army Camo if it was picket rendomly from the production batch..

This must be a file photo because the missile is certainly a DRDO owned missile.

DRDO Colour Scheme – White with Yellow Bands at top and bottom and a low spiral ribbon from top to bottom

Army Colour Scheme -- Arid Desert

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 24 Dec 2013 15:53

Agreed. From last 2 A-III tests, no photos of actual launch.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 24 Dec 2013 23:12

SSridhar wrote:DRDO Colour Scheme – White with Yellow Bands at top and bottom and a low spiral ribbon from top to bottom

Small nitpick, isn't it saffron not yellow ?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 24 Dec 2013 23:16

The Agni-III missile is powered by a two-stage solid propellant system. With a length of 17 metres, the missile's diameter is 2 metres and launch weight is around 50 tonnes. It can carry a warhead of 1.5 tonne which is protected by carbon all composite heat shield.

The sleek missile, already inducted into the armed forces, is equipped with hybrid navigation, guidance and control systems along with advanced on-board computer. The electronic systems are hardened for higher vibration, thermal and acoustic effects, a DRDO scientist said.

maybe proofing for higher reentry speeds, gels with the comment by Kanson of higher ranges being proofed with achieving exceptional accuracy at lower ranges

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 24 Dec 2013 23:56

Didn't the weight drop to 22 tons?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 25 Dec 2013 00:57

This is from the SFC stock? anyways they aren't releasing any pictures or videos anymore, good for them.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Dec 2013 04:21

RoyG wrote:Didn't the weight drop to 22 tons?

That was what Ms. Tessy Thomas said.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Dec 2013 04:34

Pratik,perhaps because only the anti-ship Yakhont had been perfected ,not the other two and the BMos variants were more numerous.There may be other subtle differences which we aren't aware.Russia has far more deadly LR anti-ship carrier killer missiles aboard its N-subs,Oscas ,etc.The Yakhont/BMos appears to have been developed specifically for conventional smaller subs like the Amur,Kilo,etc.I am sure that the air-launched variant will be bought by the Russians as it would be more capable than the current KH series.Second point,we don't know what the stocks are of the YK in Russia.There appears to be more than sufficient because of the large number that was transferred to Syria with ease (a few dozen destroyed by Israel),probably from Russian stockpiles.That may be another reason.

Coming back to the Barak-1 clearance,very welcome,there is a growing need for a more capable anti-missile weapon for the next decade,when a proliferation of supersonic missiles will be around,not just Bmos.After the failure of Trishul,there has been scant work done on this vital need.Most warships today have a layered defence against air and missile attack with RAMs/BPDMS,plus medium and long range SAMs,apart from gatlings.Worth having another indigenous go ,as it would probably cost less.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 25 Dec 2013 06:13

Question to the experts - Why are we not developing a Harpoon type indigenous missile? Is it because we already have the Brahmos? Wouldn't' a Harpoon type missile be in a completely different class and thus a requirement in itself?

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Dec 2013 06:23

Arun Menon wrote:Question to the experts - Why are we not developing a Harpoon type indigenous missile? Is it because we already have the Brahmos? Wouldn't' a Harpoon type missile be in a completely different class and thus a requirement in itself?

There is Brahmos 3 in development.

BrahMos Considers All-New AShM For MiG-29K & MMRCA

BrahMos Corp. is looking to develop a new anti-ship missile with a smaller diameter and lighter weight than the present BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. The proposal, tentatively called BrahMos-3, is aimed at putting together a potent anti-ship/anti-surface missile for the Indian Navy's MiG-29K and IAF MMRCA.
...

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 25 Dec 2013 06:25

^Thanks for the info. Hope we get to hear more on it (specifications) soon.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Dec 2013 17:27

Thx Rohit. India has been able to maintain great secrecy on our nuclear forces. There is absolutely no information available except for policy related matters such as NFU

You can see the SFC insignia here in this A2 launch from May 2010. Clearly a tri-service type symbol, kind of like Star Trek badge

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... re_030.jpg

rohitvats wrote:....

I have not come across any specific heraldry for SFC...look up the picture of AGNI or Prithvi missile RD contingents and you'll see the formation sign on vehicles which is same as Integrated Defense HQ.

On the organization front, the missile regiments seem to be organized into groups with 2-4 missile regiments under each group. So, the Prithvi Missile Group is 333 Missile Group with missile regiments numbered like 3331, 3332 and so on and so forth. Plus, I think there is a dual numbering system as well. So, 3331 Missile Regiment is also known as Unit XYZ.

What I don't know is the number of such missile groups or regiments per group. Or, the holding in terms of launchers and missiles.

Dug all this up when I had some time to waste and spent trawling the internet on a deep sea fishing expedition.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Dec 2013 18:19

I am sure usa has proposed to have a jwc on nuclear forces safety so they get to know people places procedures and can put in moles and turn people. Luckily we must have shot down such trojan horse proposals on n weapons and abm.

hence the eternal khujli baba antics.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Dec 2013 20:34

The electronic systems are hardened for higher vibration, thermal and acoustic effects, a DRDO scientist said.

Calling things by right name is important. Hardening refers to electromagnetic hardening against EMP from nuke blast not shock and vibration. WIsh right definitions are used.

Good to know its from SFC stocks and not one more developmental flight.

Any pictures of the splashdown?

And why suddenly its 100m accuracy (Hindu) when single digit was expected in the Indian Express article?

OTH, 100m accuracy gives an idea of the payload size.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 26 Dec 2013 11:07

dinesha wrote:Yesterday's test photo by DRDO..
I wonder why no Army Camo if it was picket rendomly from the production batch..

The missile is short and stubby / chubby / fat. Looks like a SLBM

K

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Dec 2013 11:11

ramana wrote:
The electronic systems are hardened for higher vibration, thermal and acoustic effects, a DRDO scientist said.
Calling things by right name is important. Hardening refers to electromagnetic hardening against EMP from nuke blast not shock and vibration. WIsh right definitions are used.

Good to know its from SFC stocks and not one more developmental flight.

Any pictures of the splashdown?

And why suddenly its 100m accuracy (Hindu) when single digit was expected in the Indian Express article?

OTH, 100m accuracy gives an idea of the payload size.

Ramana, I have noted this before on BRF. Taking technical details (eg single digit accuracy etc) from Hemant Routs articles is fraught with risk.

He is good for determining basics ie test failed, occurred, succeeded, provided some corroborating data comes from other sources.

Per my understanding of Indian nav-guidance systems, single digit accuracy is possible but not a given when dealing with such ranges, as they are (at present) passive only.