India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[Sagar G]

This may be off topic so it will be the last type trade war comment from me.

I do discuss this with the "right" people. We talk about their data being stored in the cloud and what measures they are taking to insure that their data does not give access to unwanted users while stored in the cloud, what contractual agreements thay have with the cloud, do they encrypt certain sensitive data when it is stored in the cloud, do they have an active privileged user access management program, does the encryption go through a single point encryption server before going to the cloud and *not* rely on the appplication to do the encryption, do they have a two tiered encypt key managment program, does the security measures go all the way through their data bases no matter where they're stored or does it stop at Windows Active Directory, what's their recovery plan, have they tested their disaster recovery plan and how often do they test, and most importantly do they realize that no matter what they do, if they have sensitive data some how linked to the internet, that data is subject to being copied and crossing foreign borders and rerouted foreign IPs? Well, that's some of the things, I discuss. Thanks for reading my rant.

So in your previous post from asking what is special about India since "critical" information is passed to us from your side as you said and it was a "problem" again according to your own words now you describe about the security aspect you discuss at your end. What sort of back paki downhill skiing is this ??? If ranting was your intention then why so ???

[RKumar]

More information on the whole affair ...

US agreed to deport Devyani Khobragade's maid before changing tack

NEW DELHI: The US had initially agreed to deport diplomat Devyani Khobragade's maid Sangeeta Richard to India and had even informed relevant authorities to facilitate the same, before it changed its mind for some reason.

TOI is in possession of a series of emails exchanged between Khobragade and the office of foreign missions (OFM), a state department wing meant to ensure diplomatic privileges and immunities, and also between her and NYPD. The emails show that the US had actually cancelled Richard's accreditation as the deputy consul general's maid and asked her to leave the country by July 22, exactly 30 days after her end of employment. These emails also show how "helpless" Khobragade felt as she repeatedly knocked on the doors of OFM and NYPD to help her trace the missing help.

"The Department has now terminated Ms Richard's accreditation as the Deputy Consul General's domestic employee, as of June 22, the date she left her employment. The Department gives 30 days from the date of termination to depart, so Ms Richard has until July 22 to leave the country with being declared an overstay. Relevant authorities have been made aware of the matter," is what OFM's deputy director Murray J Smith wrote to Khobragade and head of chancery in the consulate general of India in New York on July 11 in an email. This was three days after India revoked Sangeeta's passport.

The email was in response to an official communication from the Indian consulate seeking OFM's assistance for deporting Sangeeta back to India "on completion of the 30-day window".

This change in stance from treating the case as that of an absconding maid, as a flurry of emails indicates, to a trafficking offence and fraud without any explanation is said to be one of the main reasons why India felt short-changed over the issue which has marked a new low in India-US ties in several decades.

Going by another email which Khobragade wrote to senior officials in the Indian embassy, it seems Sangeeta called up the diplomat's sister-in-law on July 5, from an old SIM registered in the name of her husband Aakash Singh, and accused Khobragade of preventing her from going back to India. She said Khobragade had her passport. This is vehemently denied by the diplomat in the email as she recalls receiving a call from an unidentified woman — on July 1 — who said the maid would not move court if her employment was terminated and she was compensated for 19 hours of work per day.

"As she still remains incognito, I request that the embassy request the Foreign Office to seek the help of FBI and other agencies to trace her and deport her, since her intentions are clearly blackmail and extortion with the aim to gain illegal access to the US," wrote Khobragade.

Sangeeta went missing on June 22 after which the diplomat reported the matter to the cops. In an email to the OFM director Thomas G Gallo on June 25, Khobragade said she had tried reporting the matter to NYPD, who responded by saying they could not generate a report as Sangeeta was an adult and Khobragade wasn't her family. "I feel helpless in the matter now. Can you suggest a way out. She can only be traced by the police," she said in the email.

The consulate in turn issued a note verbale to OFM for the missing maid on June 24 and the initial response from the US seemed encouraging. "We will share it with the Mayor's Office for International Affairs of the City of New York. Please also let us know after you have reported the matter to the police precinct and please keep my office updated on any developments," said Gallo in an email a day later.

The Indian embassy was astounded to receive a letter from the state department on September 4, saying it found the matter of "considerable concern". The embassy responded by saying that the matter was between the Indian government and its employee and could not be subjected to US laws

[pankajs]

^^ You beat me to it but will still post my effort.
US agreed to deport Devyani Khobragade's maid before changing tack

NEW DELHI: The US had initially agreed to deport diplomat Devyani Khobragade's maid Sangeeta Richard to India and had even informed relevant authorities to facilitate the same, before it changed its mind for some reason.

TOI is in possession of a series of emails exchanged between Khobragade and the office of foreign missions (OFM), a state department wing meant to ensure diplomatic privileges and immunities, and also between her and NYPD. The emails show that the US had actually cancelled Richard's accreditation as the deputy consul general's maid and asked her to leave the country by July 22, exactly 30 days after her end of employment. These emails also show how "helpless" Khobragade felt as she repeatedly knocked on the doors of OFM and NYPD to help her trace the missing help.

"The Department has now terminated Ms Richard's accreditation as the Deputy Consul General's domestic employee, as of June 22, the date she left her employment. The Department gives 30 days from the date of termination to depart, so Ms Richard has until July 22 to leave the country with being declared an overstay. Relevant authorities have been made aware of the matter," is what OFM's deputy director Murray J Smith wrote to Khobragade and head of chancery in the consulate general of India in New York on July 11 in an email. This was three days after India revoked Sangeeta's passport.

The email was in response to an official communication from the Indian consulate seeking OFM's assistance for deporting Sangeeta back to India "on completion of the 30-day window".

This change in stance from treating the case as that of an absconding maid, as a flurry of emails indicates, to a trafficking offence and fraud without any explanation is said to be one of the main reasons why India felt short-changed over the issue which has marked a new low in India-US ties in several decades.

Going by another email which Khobragade wrote to senior officials in the Indian embassy, it seems Sangeeta called up the diplomat's sister-in-law on July 5, from an old SIM registered in the name of her husband Aakash Singh, and accused Khobragade of preventing her from going back to India. She said Khobragade had her passport. This is vehemently denied by the diplomat in the email as she recalls receiving a call from an unidentified woman — on July 1 — who said the maid would not move court if her employment was terminated and she was compensated for 19 hours of work per day.

"As she still remains incognito, I request that the embassy request the Foreign Office to seek the help of FBI and other agencies to trace her and deport her, since her intentions are clearly blackmail and extortion with the aim to gain illegal access to the US," wrote Khobragade.

Sangeeta went missing on June 22 after which the diplomat reported the matter to the cops. In an email to the OFM director Thomas G Gallo on June 25, Khobragade said she had tried reporting the matter to NYPD, who responded by saying they could not generate a report as Sangeeta was an adult and Khobragade wasn't her family. "I feel helpless in the matter now. Can you suggest a way out. She can only be traced by the police," she said in the email.

The consulate in turn issued a note verbale to OFM for the missing maid on June 24 and the initial response from the US seemed encouraging. "We will share it with the Mayor's Office for International Affairs of the City of New York. Please also let us know after you have reported the matter to the police precinct and please keep my office updated on any developments," said Gallo in an email a day later.

The Indian embassy was astounded to receive a letter from the state department on September 4, saying it found the matter of "considerable concern". The embassy responded by saying that the matter was between the Indian government and its employee and could not be subjected to US laws.

The US authorities helped our diplomat by first humiliating her and then approving official rape in the name of SOP.

[KrishnaK]

What is the sensitive part about election registration info ? Ideally it should be all publicly available. I don't think it's an issue of private vs public as much as it is an issue of what kind of information do we think of as sensitive. For example credit card information, medical history are both sensitive. But are they in the same league ? What sort of information can be made available to companies of other countries and what cannot ? That article just makes some vague noise about sensitive information and google without even specifying exactly what service google provides.

Oh really maybe you should read the article again before giving your eggspurt opinion and what make medical history a "sensitive" information while the entire database of voters doesn't qualify under your eggspurt opinion ???

Let me try to explain what you had trouble understanding. Medical history is "sensitive" information in the sense that I might not want my employer getting hold of those. If there is a transparent standard on how such information is to be processed and maintained, and companies undertake to follow the same, I'd be OK with that, no matter where that company exists so long as I can go after it in courts. If voter information is sensitive, is it sensitive in the same way as medical history ? If not how is it to be processed and maintained ? What should access controls be like ? That article has nothing more than sensationalism. What does GOOG sharing it data with NSA have to do with anything ? If it hadn't, would you share state secrets with it ?

[KrishnaK]

Public does not mean foreigners have access to it

I don't think you guys want a trade war. If you do, then you are barking up the wrong tree.

You want to sling mud at the diplomats, fine. Frankly, that's what they are there for. But a trade war won't just hurt the US.

Quit being childish

[KrishnaK]

Election commision and Voters information are govt of Indian dept and Govt information. Public means Indian citizens.
Foreigners means non Indian citizens including the online

Do you think before you post ? Show me how you can restrict information only to Indian citizens. You might as well make it publicly available and save the money in trying to restrict access to Indian citizens only. What is quite possible is to restrict what data any one person can access and limit it to himself.

[Vayutuvan]

In fact that was the case with 128 bit encryption at one point. Not sure the status now.

[johneeG]

chandrasekhar.m saar,
you know what the greatest irony about all this 'cavity searches'(i.e. legalized rapes) to fight drug trafficking is?



And...

Through a secret program called the Counter Intelligence Program (COINTELPRO), there was a concerted effort to subvert the will of the people to avoid the rise of a black Messiah that would mobilize the African-American community into a meaningful political force.

This documentary establishes historical perspective on the measures initiated by J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI which aimed to discredit black political figures and forces of the late 1960's and early 1970's.

Combining declassified documents, interviews, rare footage and exhaustive research, it investigates the government's role in the assassinations of Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, and Martin Luther King Jr. Were the murders the result of this concerted effort to avoid a black Messiah?

Link to the documentary

This is a cruel joke on people. Not only are they subjected to heavy dumping of drugs, then the same situation is used to usher in a police state where any random cop can come and rape you on trumped up charges! Obviously, innocents are going to be intimidated and raped by those in power when cops/judges are given such arbitrary powers. With laws like these, amrikhan has the chutzpah to talk about 'rights'?!!!

----

When Abu Garaib happened it was called as one-off and everyone bought it except the middle eastern countries. We could of course care less about a region which has been the cradle of terrorism in one form or another. Such practices do not happen in isolation, there is always an underlying culture. One does not have to look very far, just the inane stuff coming out of Hollywood scripts tells you the psyche of the nation.

The problem is that Hollywood has a very wide penetration in the world, this allows them to inject these values in other countries also. And other movie industries start to ape Hollywood. Sex and Violence! Sex in violence and violence in sex! All this leads to this sort of psyche.

If there is one thing where amirkhan has really excelled, then it is propagandu.

[svinayak]

Election commision and Voters information are govt of Indian dept and Govt information. Public means Indian citizens.
Foreigners means non Indian citizens including the online

Do you think before you post ? Show me how you can restrict information only to Indian citizens. You might as well make it publicly available and save the money in trying to restrict access to Indian citizens only. What is quite possible is to restrict what data any one person can access and limit it to himself.

Whaat?

[vera_k]

Far as electoral data goes, there have been reports in the press that electoral rolls were previously used to find and murder people during rioting.

I believe there is a need for security, even improved security, no matter whether the vendor chosen is American or Indian.

[shyam]

There are accusations like AAP is being sponsored by Ford Foundation, and it is trying to grab power. If the electoral data like voters list, voting patterns at booth by booth, EV machine by machine, are available to the sponsors, they can work on a strategy to control next electoral outcome. If that happens India will cease to be a democracy and become a banana republic.

Whether it happens or not, any possibility of such occurrence has to be prevented. If election commission needs professional IT support, use CDAC or NIC.

[Arjun]

Medical history is "sensitive" information in the sense that I might not want my employer getting hold of those. If there is a transparent standard on how such information is to be processed and maintained, and companies undertake to follow the same, I'd be OK with that, no matter where that company exists so long as I can go after it in courts. If voter information is sensitive, is it sensitive in the same way as medical history ? If not how is it to be processed and maintained ? What should access controls be like ? That article has nothing more than sensationalism. What does GOOG sharing it data with NSA have to do with anything ? If it hadn't, would you share state secrets with it ?

You are getting confused. The objection to Google is on grounds of national security, not Privacy. Medical history is a matter of individual privacy. The issue with voter-lists is not of privacy - but of the data being misused by inimical governments.

Here is an example of the US denying certain trade transactions based on security considerations: Obama Slapdown on Chinese Wind Deal. There are many, many such examples of foreign firms denied normal privileges based on national security considerations in the US.

[devesh]

back in 2006, the US Congress and Media was very concerned about one of the biggest US Ports being taken over by an Arab firm.

there was hooplah for several weeks in US media. it was a private corporation with which US had several dealings in the past, and yet, the politicians, and US administration went totally nuts about an "aa-rab" company taking over.

I wonder why? was that a case of brainless, redneck jingoism too? or was it US taking care of its national security?

[Bade]

I do not think there are any US govt IT contracts which are outsourced out of the country... I mean any country not even Canada.

[KrishnaK]

Medical history is "sensitive" information in the sense that I might not want my employer getting hold of those. If there is a transparent standard on how such information is to be processed and maintained, and companies undertake to follow the same, I'd be OK with that, no matter where that company exists so long as I can go after it in courts. If voter information is sensitive, is it sensitive in the same way as medical history ? If not how is it to be processed and maintained ? What should access controls be like ? That article has nothing more than sensationalism. What does GOOG sharing it data with NSA have to do with anything ? If it hadn't, would you share state secrets with it ?

You are getting confused. The objection to Google is on grounds of national security, not Privacy. Medical history is a matter of individual privacy. The issue with voter-lists is not of privacy - but of the data being misused by inimical governments.

Unfortunately I'm not. National security is privacy of some sort too. It's just that the entity wanting to ensure privacy of said data is the state instead of a person, wanting to protect it from an inimical state instead of an inimical corporation or person.

Some of the questions involved are: under law what parts of the data are sensitive (maybe all of it is and the information is to be made available only to cabinet ministers say), whom are they to be protected from, who has access to it, does it breach any individual privacy requirements (this is the part where GOOG sharing it's data with NSA is relevant). Restrictions on Accessing Voter Records is an example.

If any Indian has a right to the entire voter information corpus under law, then there's no real point in restricting it only to Indians and hoohawing that corpus as a state secret. I'm sure you can reason why.

Here is an example of the US denying certain trade transactions based on security considerations: Obama Slapdown on Chinese Wind Deal. There are many, many such examples of foreign firms denied normal privileges based on national security considerations in the US.

Irrelevant.

[KrishnaK]

There are accusations like AAP is being sponsored by Ford Foundation, and it is trying to grab power. If the electoral data like voters list, voting patterns at booth by booth, EV machine by machine, are available to the sponsors, they can work on a strategy to control next electoral outcome. If that happens India will cease to be a democracy and become a banana republic.

Voting information or even patterns is meant to be unavilable to even the highest authority in the land, simply because we have a secret ballot.

[Arjun]

Unfortunately I'm not. National security is privacy of some sort too. It's just that the entity wanting to ensure privacy of said data is the state instead of a person, wanting to protect it from an inimical state instead of an inimical corporation or person.

Well, that is a perspective you are free to have - though even the US government does distinguish between 'data privacy' legislation and national security related transaction approvals.

Some of the questions involved are: under law what parts of the data are sensitive (maybe all of it is and the information is to be made available only to cabinet ministers say), whom are they to be protected from, who has access to it, does it breach any individual privacy requirements (this is the part where GOOG sharing it's data with NSA is relevant).

When it comes to national security, regular "laws" that are applicable for non-security related matters are not applicable any longer. This is true of all countries. Can you for example state under law what parts of the Chinese wind company purchase of a US firm are not permitted ? And yet - it was disallowed by the US government.

If any Indian has a right to the entire voter information corpus under law, then there's no real point in restricting it only to Indians and hoohawing that corpus as a state secret. I'm sure you can reason why.

Certain kinds of work can always be restricted to firms and individuals having appropriate security clearances, including restricting to citizens based domestically. The US has a similar system for its governmental work.

Here is an example of the US denying certain trade transactions based on security considerations: Obama Slapdown on Chinese Wind Deal. There are many, many such examples of foreign firms denied normal privileges based on national security considerations in the US.

Irrelevant.

Which aspect is irrelevant?

[putnanja]

Many countries including US, Europe and China have similar requirements. I know first hand that the US federal goverment data cannot be accessed by anyone who is not a US citizen and has not cleared security clearance. In European Union countries, all data needs to be in servers which are located within Europe Union. China is pretty strict too. All online services sold in China should have all content in data centers in China. It has pretty strict requirement on how data can be stored and accessed.

It is not limited to India, it is the same worldwide. Unfortunately, many in Indian government organizations have poor knowledge of data security. I bet Google offered some sweet deal on either hosting or creating apps for them, and they bit the bait.

India needs to define its own security framework for government data like the rest of world does.

[Amber G.]

From an UK;s daily mail.. (Few items I and others have talked about)
America must clean up the Devyani spat

Never before in the history of India-US relations have ties between the world's biggest and the world's oldest democracy turned into an ugly public spat quite like the one in the aftermath of the arrest of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade in New York.
With the outrage and public anger against the US palpable, South Block resorted to measures which are usually reserved for bitter rivals.

Just to illustrate I will bring to the fore three things first reported by Mail Today:
The US ambassador Nancy Powell, who was all set to spend her Christmas in Nepal, was forced to cancel a scheduled trip there after the foreign ministry refused to extend her special privileges that usually come with the job.
Powell had notified the foreign ministry about her trip and asked for the use of the protocol lounge and other privileges like security and immigration assistance, but she was curtly reminded that all of these had been withdrawn as India had decided to deal with the US on the basis of reciprocity.
Indian Ambassadors to the US never got such privileges, but for many years India decided to allow the US these and many other perks to signal that these were accorded to a special friend.
To make India's displeasure even clearer, US deputy chief of mission Michael Pelletier was summoned on Christmas eve and served a diplomatic protest by Vikram Doraisamy, the head of the Americas desk at the external affairs ministry.
....
The other dimension of this is that the Government wants to teach the US a lesson so this incident becomes a deterrent for any country trying to meddle with India's national pride, a senior official told me.
... MEA, usually very conscious of its turf, has asked the Central Board of Direct Taxes to make an unprecedented scrutiny of tax returns, salaries and employment details of embassy employees, as well as exemptions claimed by establishments allied to the mission, including the American Club, the ASCA.
The tax men will also do a 360 degree mapping of the diplomats and their families with a fine-toothed comb now, something which has never been done for diplomats.
The US has been claiming tax exemption for the American School, though no other international school gets this privilege. They also run a club inside the US embassy premises as well as a beauty salon and a café. Clearly these are going to affect the US dearly because if these concessions are withdrawn or taxed this will impact on the US diplomats even more.
What is urgently needed now is to bring a closure to the controversy, with an apology and the withdrawal of cases against Devyani. The US Secretary of State John Kerry has already issued an apology but there needs to be a next step, admitting that this incident was a horrible mistake and will not be repeated.
Secondly, US President Barack Obama must make a call to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and do some urgent damage control.

...

Sources say that the US goofed up yet another point, as Devyani was covered under the Vienna Convention on diplomatic immunity of 1946 even on the day she was arrested.
Khobragade was accredited to the UN and was accorded advisor status by the US State Department, which was recognised by its Office of Foreign Missions till December 31.
...
"So the question of her arrest did not arise as she enjoyed diplomatic immunity even then," a source explained.
<snip>

[putnanja]

Just highlighting couple of other points, lest someone who reads only the bolded parts misreads the issue.

From an UK;s daily mail.. (Few items I and others have talked about)
America must clean up the Devyani spat

Never before in the history of India-US relations have ties between the world's biggest and the world's oldest democracy turned into an ugly public spat quite like the one in the aftermath of the arrest of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade in New York.
With the outrage and public anger against the US palpable, South Block resorted to measures which are usually reserved for bitter rivals.

Just to illustrate I will bring to the fore three things first reported by Mail Today:
The US ambassador Nancy Powell, who was all set to spend her Christmas in Nepal, was forced to cancel a scheduled trip there after the foreign ministry refused to extend her special privileges that usually come with the job.
Powell had notified the foreign ministry about her trip and asked for the use of the protocol lounge and other privileges like security and immigration assistance, but she was curtly reminded that all of these had been withdrawn as India had decided to deal with the US on the basis of reciprocity.
Indian Ambassadors to the US never got such privileges, but for many years India decided to allow the US these and many other perks to signal that these were accorded to a special friend.
To make India's displeasure even clearer, US deputy chief of mission Michael Pelletier was summoned on Christmas eve and served a diplomatic protest by Vikram Doraisamy, the head of the Americas desk at the external affairs ministry.
....
The other dimension of this is that the Government wants to teach the US a lesson so this incident becomes a deterrent for any country trying to meddle with India's national pride, a senior official told me.
... MEA, usually very conscious of its turf, has asked the Central Board of Direct Taxes to make an unprecedented scrutiny of tax returns, salaries and employment details of embassy employees, as well as exemptions claimed by establishments allied to the mission, including the American Club, the ASCA.
The tax men will also do a 360 degree mapping of the diplomats and their families with a fine-toothed comb now, something which has never been done for diplomats.
The US has been claiming tax exemption for the American School, though no other international school gets this privilege. They also run a club inside the US embassy premises as well as a beauty salon and a café. Clearly these are going to affect the US dearly because if these concessions are withdrawn or taxed this will impact on the US diplomats even more.
What is urgently needed now is to bring a closure to the controversy, with an apology and the withdrawal of cases against Devyani. The US Secretary of State John Kerry has already issued an apology but there needs to be a next step, admitting that this incident was a horrible mistake and will not be repeated.
Secondly, US President Barack Obama must make a call to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and do some urgent damage control.

...

Sources say that the US goofed up yet another point, as Devyani was covered under the Vienna Convention on diplomatic immunity of 1946 even on the day she was arrested.
Khobragade was accredited to the UN and was accorded advisor status by the US State Department, which was recognised by its Office of Foreign Missions till December 31.
...
"So the question of her arrest did not arise as she enjoyed diplomatic immunity even then," a source explained.
<snip>

[member_28352]

I suggest that we teach Massa a lesson. First order of business for a new govt should be to give peace a chance and destroy Pakistan(old Enqyoob quote). Divide into 5 parts. Take over POK and parts of Pakjab and Sindh and create a contiguous land zone to Kabul and Kandahar. Also do it after Massa withdraws troops from PakAf.

[Amber G.]

Meanwhile..interesting story I first saw in a Philadelphia local blog, and googled it ... Here from an Indian newspaper. .

The story is about a Boychoir from Philadelphia, which has performed all over the world, also performed in New Delhi around New year. They were advised, in light of DK episode, not to sing American Songs but they did it anyway..

US Boychoir Says 'Deeply Sorry' for Diplomatic Incident

After Secretary of State John Kerry and Ambassador Nancy Powell, it was the turn of a celebrated school choir from the US to express regret at the ugly turn of events that led to the humiliation of an Indian diplomat, an incident that caused a major downturn in Indo-US ties at the end of last year.

The Keystone State Boychoir from Philadelphia, that gave a two-hour concert to a packed auditorium at the India International Centre Saturday evening, and got a standing ovation at the end, said they had heard about the diplomatic fiasco and were "deeply sorry" for whatever had happened.

"We cherish the friendship of the people of India and we are deeply sorry for what has happened," said Steven M. Fisher, the assistant director of the Boychoir that regaled the audience with a repertoire of Christmas carols, American folk and Indian hymns that were the favourite of Mahatma Gandhi. The visit of the all-boys's choir to India was facilitated by Arun Gandhi, grandson of Mahatma Gandhi and his greatgrandson Tushar Gandhi.

The choir group was advised that this was not the right time to visit India because of heightened anti-American sentiments inflamed by the diplomat row that was caused by the mistreatment and humiliation of Devyani Khobragade, a young Indian diplomat who worked at the Indian consulate in New York, over alleged visa fraud and violation of workers' rights following alleged exploitation of her Indian housemaid.

"But we found our reception in India incredibly warm," said Fisher.

He said the group was even advised by American embassy officials not to sing American songs, but found no hostility among Indian audiences during their performances in New Delhi and Gurgaon and also with the children of the Salaam Balak Trust that works for the welfare and development of street children.

The choir also visited and sang at the Gandhi Centre at Delhi University, at the footsteps of the Jama Masjid and visited Gandhi Smriti, the site where Gandhi was assassinated Jan 30, 1948, where they sang Zikr, an Islamic chant, and Ramkali, based on a Hindu raga.

The Boychoir has performed in all seven continents, including in the Antarctica.

[Amber G.]

Just highlighting couple of other points, lest someone who reads only the bolded parts misreads the issue.

Thanks.. The whole article is in the link. Of course, I have only pasted some excerpts and highlighted even less.

[Karan Dixit]

Please expand on the potential risks of knowing election registration info in conjunction with the US sending health data to India to be transcribed and tax prepration for US citizens plus all sorts of outsourcing of critical legacy IT system maintenance. What makes India so special? Mind you I discuss some of these problems with CIO's from major US corporations concerning controls and risks to their legacy systems maintenance.

I have no problem with India outsourcing health industry related work to the US. However, if India outsources election related work to a foreign nation then there is a possibility that the results can be manipulated. I think any political party which opposes the policies of the foreign country (which has been contracted to do the work) may become a victim of sabotage by the said foreign government.

[chandrasekhar.m]

From an UK;s daily mail.. (Few items I and others have talked about)
America must clean up the Devyani spat

Never before in the history of India-US relations have ties between the world's biggest and the world's oldest democracy turned into an ugly public spat quite like the one in the aftermath of the arrest of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade in New York.
With the outrage and public anger against the US palpable, South Block resorted to measures which are usually reserved for bitter rivals.
...
<snip>
What is urgently needed now is to bring a closure to the controversy, with an apology and the withdrawal of cases against Devyani. The US Secretary of State John Kerry has already issued an apology but there needs to be a next step, admitting that this incident was a horrible mistake and will not be repeated.
Secondly, US President Barack Obama must make a call to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and do some urgent damage control.

Just for the record, Kerry expressed his regret in a strangely worded letter which did not even clearly state what he was expressing regret for. I dont know what that means in US diplomatic speak, but I don't feel his or the SD's actions since then constitute an apology or even trying to make any efforts for a reconciliation.
He has done nothing to solve the issue. Words mean nothing without actions.
Moreover, we should not forget that Kerry gave his permission to law enforcement to go ahead with arresting her, knowing fully well what the arrest process entails. Should have used some of the grey matter in his head before doing that, rather than expressing regret after causing grevious harm.
If anything, the behaviour of the SD has only kept this issue simmering since then.

One needs to approach this in a cold blooded fashion. This issue is solved only when meaningful actions are taken to see that it is indeed resolved amicably, irrespective of any number of news articles or "regrets". Though it is good to hear opinion pieces in the media that support India's stand.

Edited to set correct colour.

[CRamS]

I don't see any contrition on part of US, let alone apologizing. On the contrary, they are laughing their asses off in contempt and disgust watching India's reaction. I am not sure how much of the DK spat is even registered on the radar screens of those who matter in DC. Pipsqueak 2-bit SD spokesman like Marie Harf or Nisha Desai don't count.

India on the other hand is seething with anger, at least those like us on BR and foreign policy establishment and sundry others who know the game US is up to, while a vast majority are either apathetic or ignorant of US's game or the argumentative ones including MUTUs and Uncle Toms have deliberately or naively fallen for the "human rights" and "rule of law" BS that US has trotted out. Meanwhile, lines at US embassies for those Indians seeking visas to go to US hasn't abated, nor have the IT honchos stooped seeking US contracts. Finally, US is not o concerned about the "damage" to the "strategic relationship" as much as India is. These are cold facts. India for sure retaliated well given its pitiful leverage over US, so I am at a loss to understand where this will end.

[KrishnaK]

Unfortunately I'm not. National security is privacy of some sort too. It's just that the entity wanting to ensure privacy of said data is the state instead of a person, wanting to protect it from an inimical state instead of an inimical corporation or person.

Well, that is a perspective you are free to have - though even the US government does distinguish between 'data privacy' legislation and national security related transaction approvals.

Two sides: as far as formulating access controls and security policy it's just a question of what needs to be protected from whom. The law clearly treats those classes differently, no argument there.

Some of the questions involved are: under law what parts of the data are sensitive (maybe all of it is and the information is to be made available only to cabinet ministers say), whom are they to be protected from, who has access to it, does it breach any individual privacy requirements (this is the part where GOOG sharing it's data with NSA is relevant).

When it comes to national security, regular "laws" that are applicable for non-security related matters are not applicable any longer. This is true of all countries. Can you for example state under law what parts of the Chinese wind company purchase of a US firm are not permitted ? And yet - it was disallowed by the US government.

If any Indian has a right to the entire voter information corpus under law, then there's no real point in restricting it only to Indians and hoohawing that corpus as a state secret. I'm sure you can reason why.

Certain kinds of work can always be restricted to firms and individuals having appropriate security clearances, including restricting to citizens based domestically. The US has a similar system for its governmental work.

Which is the point I'm trying to make. There's a very specific issue we're arguing about - voter information. Not "certain this, certain that, arabs and ports or chinese and wind deals". There has been no information put forth that explains how the GoI views voter information. The link I had posted specifies clearly that certain parts of voter information is subject to privacy laws in the US. Is that how it is treated in India ? Is it different ? If so, how ? If for example any Indian citizen is allowed under law to access that information - say for campaigning purposes, that info is almost as good as a publicly available telephone directory ? Instead the argument seems to run along the lines of "our democracy will be subverted, arabs were not given ports why should we let US firms handle sensitive information, NSA is snooping on everything, PMO runs on gmail, "

[KrishnaK]

Meanwhile..interesting story I first saw in a Philadelphia local blog, and googled it ... Here from an Indian newspaper. .

The story is about a Boychoir from Philadelphia, which has performed all over the world, also performed in New Delhi around New year. They were advised, in light of DK episode, not to sing American Songs but they did it anyway..

US Boychoir Says 'Deeply Sorry' for Diplomatic Incident

After Secretary of State John Kerry and Ambassador Nancy Powell, it was the turn of a celebrated school choir from the US to express regret at the ugly turn of events that led to the humiliation of an Indian diplomat, an incident that caused a major downturn in Indo-US ties at the end of last year.

The Keystone State Boychoir from Philadelphia, that gave a two-hour concert to a packed auditorium at the India International Centre Saturday evening, and got a standing ovation at the end, said they had heard about the diplomatic fiasco and were "deeply sorry" for whatever had happened.

"We cherish the friendship of the people of India and we are deeply sorry for what has happened," said Steven M. Fisher, the assistant director of the Boychoir that regaled the audience with a repertoire of Christmas carols, American folk and Indian hymns that were the favourite of Mahatma Gandhi. The visit of the all-boys's choir to India was facilitated by Arun Gandhi, grandson of Mahatma Gandhi and his greatgrandson Tushar Gandhi.

The choir group was advised that this was not the right time to visit India because of heightened anti-American sentiments inflamed by the diplomat row that was caused by the mistreatment and humiliation of Devyani Khobragade, a young Indian diplomat who worked at the Indian consulate in New York, over alleged visa fraud and violation of workers' rights following alleged exploitation of her Indian housemaid.

"But we found our reception in India incredibly warm," said Fisher.

He said the group was even advised by American embassy officials not to sing American songs, but found no hostility among Indian audiences during their performances in New Delhi and Gurgaon and also with the children of the Salaam Balak Trust that works for the welfare and development of street children.

The choir also visited and sang at the Gandhi Centre at Delhi University, at the footsteps of the Jama Masjid and visited Gandhi Smriti, the site where Gandhi was assassinated Jan 30, 1948, where they sang Zikr, an Islamic chant, and Ramkali, based on a Hindu raga.

The Boychoir has performed in all seven continents, including in the Antarctica.

I thought this was from the Onion

[amit]

For folks losing sleep over the EC's deal with Google, it would be useful if they find out what exactly the deal is about. The deal is for Google to use its CSR budget (that is making it free for EC) to manage online voter registration of new voters for a period of six months. I'm sure Opus Deli, Rockefeller and other, thousands of years old, secret societies will be using this to enslave India.

Meanwhile the Election Commission of India has this link on its webpage.

Regarding the DK affair, on the last page there was a report which said that initially SD had agreed to deport SR and there are emails to the effect available. The fact that things changed suddenly after the Foreign Sec's visit (the arrest happened two days after the visit as far as I recall) suggests that something happened during the talks that didn't go down well with some folks in SD and somebody hit upon a half-backed silly plan to "teach" a lesson. If this scenario is true then one needs to know from how far up in the pecking order this plan came from?

[JE Menon]

Not to mention the Broderlund group from SA, the Bilderberg enclave and so on.. "They" know what they are doing.

My question is if that's so, and if we are certain of it, why not emulate instead of whine?

[amit]

^^^^
+100

[Amber G.]

For folks losing sleep over the EC's deal with Google, it would be useful if they find out what exactly the deal is about. The deal is for Google to use its CSR budget (that is making it free for EC) to manage online voter registration of new voters for a period of six months. I'm sure Opus Deli, Rockefeller and other, thousands of years old, secret societies will be using this to enslave India.

Meanwhile the Election Commission of India has this link on its webpage.

Thanks. Yes this whole "losing sleep" and getting all worked up, some times is beyond silly.

[Arjun]

NSA Spying Allegations Put Google on Hot Seat in Brazil

The U.S. National Security Agency’s eavesdropping on foreign heads of state from Angela Merkel to Dilma Rousseff is poised to produce its first high-profile corporate casualty: Google Inc.’s operations in Brazil.

Brazilian lawmakers are under orders from President Rousseff to pause all other legislative proceedings until they hash out a proposal that would require Google and other providers of online services to keep local-user information in data centers within the country.

The measure is at the forefront of a growing backlash against American Internet companies, with allegations emerging last month and as recently as last week that the NSA gained access to e-mails between world leaders and their staffs, raising questions about the data held by U.S. Internet companies. European lawmakers are considering their own penalties for companies that share unauthorized information.

Google (GOOG) says the data-center requirement would hinder expansion in Brazil, the world’s sixth-largest market for Internet users, because the infrastructure would be complicated to develop. Violating the rule would cost Google 10 percent of its annual sales in Brazil, where it is the most-visited website, according to research firm ComScore Inc. (SCOR)

While Google doesn’t disclose its Brazilian revenue, the country is the third-largest market for the company’s Android smartphone software and the nation with the fifth-most YouTube users. On a monthly basis, 92 percent of Brazilian Internet users visit Google sites, according to ComScore.

The 28-nation European Union is debating a complete overhaul of its data protection rules dating back to 1995. A proposal put forward last year by the European Commission, the EU’s regulator, would also hold U.S. companies such as Google, Facebook Inc. and Apple Inc. (AAPL) liable for violations such as unauthorized transfers of data on EU citizens to non-EU countries. Fines could be as high as 100 million euros ($138 million), according to draft rules backed last week by a European Parliament committee.

[Arjun]

Got to admire Brazil for having the strategic intent to develop its own internet industry, which India seems to be totally lacking on:

Unlike emerging markets China, Russia and South Korea, Brazil doesn’t have a well-developed domestic Internet industry. Rousseff’s local data-center proposal would protect Brazilian citizens while encouraging the growth of local companies to challenge Google, said Pablo Ortellado, a public-policy professor at the University of Sao Paulo.

“Considering the implications of the spying allegations, I think it’s preferable that we develop a national industry, even if it’s not initially of the same quality as the American market,” Ortellado said.

India will remain the only BRIC nation to hang on to the coat-tails of Silicon Valley's internet industry, without developing its own offering ! I guess that is what most "model minority" Indian-American lackeys would consider as progress...

[amit]

Arjun,

This is getting off topic and so can be discussed elsewhere, but are you trying to say that India does not have a fledgling Internet industry (as opposed to ITES?). I would suggest that you do some research on this.

FWIW, Google looked at India and China for its two Asian data centres but eventually settled for Singapore and Taiwan. Singapore for India since data protection laws are still a work in progress here and Taiwan because of Chinese censorship laws.

One final point. It's not the data centre (location wise that is) which is at the heart of the vulnerability. It's the data traffic and the gateways it uses that is the problem. For example every single WhatsApp message send anywhere in the world is routed through San Francisco, since that's the HQ. For Google, or any other public cloud service provider, ensuring data centres in India wouldn't really ensure that data is not snooped upon. To ensure that you'd need Tier 4DCs and even then that may not be enough. I'm sure really sensitive GoI data does not reside in public clouds like Google and/or Amazon.

The Brazil statements are just political bravado, similar to what we see here during election time. Brazil is going to develop a world class "Internet industry" just by locating a data centre in Brazil? It's similar to saying that you set up a bank in a village, every member of that village would become a Dhirubhai Ambani.

Interestingly I would say that India has a more robust and creative Internet industry (as in start ups) than the Russians. The Chinese have a better industry (again local start ups) because of greater Internet penetration. If Indian Internet penetration goes up (especially mobile) then the local start up industry will explode.

[a_bharat]

The fact that things changed suddenly after the Foreign Sec's visit (the arrest happened two days after the visit as far as I recall) suggests that something happened during the talks that didn't go down well with some folks in SD and somebody hit upon a half-backed silly plan to "teach" a lesson. If this scenario is true then one needs to know from how far up in the pecking order this plan came from?

Richards' family was "evacuated" prior to Foreign Secretary's visit. So, they had already decided on what they wanted to do even before this visit.

[Amber G.]

I for one would like that people keep perspective. There are some thing we know, some are mere conjunctures and people ought know the difference. Just one example ..

Just for the record Kerry expressed his regret in a strangely worded letter
...Kerry gave his permission to law enforcement to go ahead with arresting her, knowing fully well what the arrest process entails. Should have used some of the grey matter in his head before doing that, rather than expressing regret after causing grevious harm.
.

What is the source (that Kerry gave his permission etc)? (There have been some "SPECULATION" by someone, but it is just that a speculation not a reported fact. None in GOI, or Indian Consulate, from what we know, have said so, at least not yet. Statements like these, iMO, does little more than establish the credibility of author.

Point is, it is okay to speculate, guess or (or even say most likely) but ought not to present opinions or conjurers as fact.

Things are serious enough, one does not have to make up things just to make it more ugly than it is. (which is very ugly already).

This is why, I find it utterly incredible that posters here have given credence and publicity to even a clearly obvious fake video.

JMT

[chandrasekhar.m]

Regarding the DK affair, on the last page there was a report which said that initially SD had agreed to deport SR and there are emails to the effect available. The fact that things changed suddenly after the Foreign Sec's visit (the arrest happened two days after the visit as far as I recall) suggests that something happened during the talks that didn't go down well with some folks in SD and somebody hit upon a half-backed silly plan to "teach" a lesson. If this scenario is true then one needs to know from how far up in the pecking order this plan came from?

Things didn't go from good to bad suddenly after our Foreign Sec's visit. It was in the planning, just the timing might have been changed because of her visit. Here is the timeline posted in a previous post two pages ago http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1570957

In brief, the Indian consulate notified US' Office of Foreign Mission on June 24 that SR absconded on June 22 and the cops are not helping locate her. The Office of Foreign Missions told the consulate and DK on July 11 that they had cancelled SR's accreditation and that SR had until July 22 to leave the US. But on September 4th, the Embassy received a letter from State Dept saying the SR issue was of "considerable concern".
Please read the post I linked to, it has all the relevant dates emphasised in more detail.

Thus, our Foreign Sec's visit might have impacted things and precipitated DK's arrest. But it would not be entirely correct to think that is the reason or the only reason. The SD seemed to have been pursuing an ulterior agenda since September.

[amit]

^^^^
Thanks for the perspective. Point taken.

[Arjun]

Arjun,

This is getting off topic and so can be discussed elsewhere, but are you trying to say that India does not have a fledgling Internet industry (as opposed to ITES?). I would suggest that you do some research on this.

Please, I am intimately familiar with the internet industry in India...the content (ad) driven Internet Industry in India is basically completely screwed - and hugely under-performing both China and Russia, leave alone the US.

Brazil is going to develop a world class "Internet industry" just by locating a data centre in Brazil?

No..but it is a statement of intent to its own citizens. If they are nationalist enough they would use local alternatives / search engines more - which would automatically lead to a stronger local internet industry.

India should have used the NSA spying revelation as an opportunity to do the same and kickstart the local industry - like the Brazilians have done. Instead they have gone ahead and awarded more contracts to Google !!

Interestingly I would say that India has a more robust and creative Internet industry (as in start ups) than the Russians. The Chinese have a better industry (again local start ups) because of greater Internet penetration.

Check out the revenues of the top Indian portal / search engine and compare with either Chinese or Russian. India is OK in certain segments (like e-commerce)- but losing out badly in a number of others. Actually, English (the reason for India's dominance in ITES) is also a key reason for India's weak position in the internet portal business.