Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 05 Jan 2014 17:58

The way the refueling probe has been added (note extended external plumbing) has got to increase rcs.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 05 Jan 2014 18:45

I really Desert Tech decesion, thier decesion not sell has probably saved many Indian soldiers lives on the LOC

Saar, he only tells he doing becos of Amerikan lives, he not say abt Indian LOC lives, but i thinking (personal view) he not care a rat's ass abt indian lives.

UPA's Aman ki Aasha ranks with Gujaral Doctrine , Moraji Desai calling Gen. Zia to inform abt Nukes and other amazing and brilliant stuff.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 05 Jan 2014 22:17

K Mehta wrote:The way the refueling probe has been added (note extended external plumbing) has got to increase rcs.

You mean on the Mirage-III?

I don't think that particular aircraft qualifies for anything remotely related to RCS reduction anyway (especially when loaded with weapons). A little bit more RCS won't hurt its already low survivability chances in combat.

On the JF-17, the ridiculous probe they have attached is akin to waving a brightly colored flag and saying "Take a shot! Its free!". I wonder if they will keep some of their JF-17s without such a ugly probe since they don't have enough tankers to fill up so many air-frames anyway.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 06 Jan 2014 00:31

^^ Pakistan will use its tanker to increase payload rather than just range. Planes take off with max payload but less fuel, and then get a full tank up in the air. Pakistan just doesnt have depth to require tankers otherwise. Nor will the tankers survive accompanying any strike penetrating hostile airspace.

Also, their F-16s cant use probe & drogue style refuelling.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 06 Jan 2014 00:39

tsarkar wrote:^^ Pakistan will use its tanker to increase payload rather than just range. Planes take off with max payload but less fuel, and then get a full tank up in the air. Pakistan just doesnt have depth to require tankers otherwise. Nor will the tankers survive accompanying any strike penetrating hostile airspace.

Also, their F-16s cant use probe & drogue style refuelling.

Where does it have the depth to do it?
A tanker is sitting duck in areas where air-supremacy is not achieved.

It has be atleast around 100 kms from the indian air space to be space and give it time to escape. So basically only on the other side of the indus. it would only make sense for attacks from the sea, give paf a chance to threaten mumbai.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Jan 2014 00:54

Singha wrote:and backed by ereyie and cheen awacs also flying from rear bases like quetta, jacobabad, peshawar,gwader...refueled by midas to improve time on station.

Erieye...
One Erieye attained martyrdom, whereas 2 others were injured bravely fighting the TTP

http://www.di.se/artiklar/2013/4/10/tal ... rade-plan/

Taliban destroyed the Swedish-financed plan

Three radar planes of Pakistan Air Force bought munitions manufacturer Saab with borrowed money from the Swedish state is shattered in a terrorist attack.

Saab can expect a new billion order while the Swedish taxpayers sitting with 5-6 billion in bad loans.

Early on the morning of August 16 last year, nine well-armed men attacked the airbase at Kamra, six mil from the capital Islamabad.

That night was three Saab 2000 aircraft with Erieye radar system established on the base - and all in the same space, according to Di's sources. The terrorists chose delete other tempting targets.

After a several hours long firefight with automatic weapons, explosives and rocket launchers were the attackers dead.

The ultra-modern Swedish radar planes were badly damaged, but the government and the security forces embarrassing story quieted down. Officially stated immediately after the battle that the nose cone of the plane had been damaged.

At the same time took the Pakistani Taliban group Teh-reek-i-Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack. In a statement explaining that the attack was revenge for the terrorist leaders Baitullah Mehsud and Osama Bin Laden's death.
Only recently, in February, admits Pakistan's Defence Ministry loss of one of the most expensive Swedish radar plan.

In Sweden, only a few people to what happened with Saab plan and their valuable Erieyesystem.

Two independent sources say the Di that one of Erieyeplanen was completely destroyed and the other two planes are so severely injured that they have to undergo repairs.

In practice, the Swedish tax money which has now gone up in smoke in a Taliban attack. State Swedish Export has namely funded plan through a credit agreement of 7.4 billion concluded 2006th

In May 2012 came the final order, and only a few months later - in August - beating the Taliban

It is about the Pakistani Air Force Perhaps the single most valuable asset, and not just the purchase price of SEK 7 billion. Erieye is counted as one of the most advanced surveillance systems and has made it possible for Pakistan to have full control over what happens in the air, and to a large extent on the ground.

Only one of the four Erieyeplanen escaped the attack. It was elsewhere in Pakistan.

Government of Pakistan is now very anxious to get the two damaged planes repaired with Saab's help and discussions have taken place at express speed.

Saab can expect 1-2 billion in payment for new supplies of support and spares, deliveries may start already this year.

ISP stopped all new business with Pakistan in 2007, referring to unrest in the country, but the repairs are classified as follow-on deliveries. And since Saab's original application to the ISP about six planes are also nothing to prevent the company from selling to one, according to Di's sources

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Jan 2014 05:27

^^^

It just shows the importance of dispersing valuable assets to different protected areas of an airbase and to other airbases. They should never be parked in line next to each other.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 06 Jan 2014 08:10

We have all our Phalcons parked in Agra..?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Jan 2014 08:21

dinesh_kumar wrote:
I really Desert Tech decesion, thier decesion not sell has probably saved many Indian soldiers lives on the LOC
Saar, he only tells he doing becos of Amerikan lives, he not say abt Indian LOC lives, but i thinking (personal view) he not care a rat's ass abt indian lives.

UPA's Aman ki Aasha ranks with Gujaral Doctrine , Moraji Desai calling Gen. Zia to inform abt Nukes and other amazing and brilliant stuff.

I am well aware of that they care a rat's ass about Indian lives, but the unintended consequence is the saving of Indian lives, Pakistan could have wanted those rifles for mischief along the LOC.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Jan 2014 10:50

Its not about location and parking alone.. PAF apparently took low ranked AF types and put them in a job of security which they werent trained for.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Jan 2014 13:05

Karan M wrote:Its not about location and parking alone.. PAF apparently took low ranked AF types and put them in a job of security which they werent trained for.

Shocking laxity after frying onions in Karachi.

rsharma · Post by **rsharma** » 06 Jan 2014 19:04

Mean-e-while, Nick Young, President at Desert Tactical Arms took to the FB Page of the company to make the decision public which in turn caused a lot of heart-burn to our Birathers

https://www.facebook.com/deserttactical ... 4430601302

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 09 Jan 2014 01:10

rsharma wrote:Mean-e-while, Nick Young, President at Desert Tactical Arms took to the FB Page of the company to make the decision public which in turn caused a lot of heart-burn to our Birathers

https://www.facebook.com/deserttactical ... 4430601302

Some of the comments are really damning. For the pigs.... Some apologiat have crawled out of the woodwork to bat for the pigs too

member_28131 · Post by **member_28131** » 09 Jan 2014 02:20

^ Their interview on FOX:

Gun Company Rejects $15M Deal With Pakistan Over Concern For U.S. Troops

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Jan 2014 00:47

http://www.nation.com.pk/karachi/04-Jan ... arade-held

KARACHI - The Annual Efficiency Competition Parade and Awards Ceremony of Pakistan Navy for the year 2012 was held at PN Dockyard here on Thursday. The Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Asif Sandila, was the chief guest on the occasion.A PN statement on Thursday said that the Efficiency Parade, held every year, signifies the professional achievements of PN Fleet units over the last 12 months. Fleet units, which excel in various categories, are awarded shields to acknowledge their outstanding performances, besides boosting healthy competition within the Command.
...

He stated that to pick up the gauntlet of participating in naval operations to combat terrorism and international piracy in collaboration with allied navies, Pakistan Navy’s regular contribution as well as commanding Task Forces 150 and 151 is ample acknowledgement of PN’s high professional standards as well as endeavour to establish peace in the region. While paying tribute to the brave officers, sailors and men who laid down their lives while defending against terror attacks, he said that in the prevailing milieu, Pakistan Navy has undertaken a number of steps but to effectively counter the prevailing threat, preparation to meet challenges is a persistent effort, constant vigilance and preparedness can make national defence impregnable. He added that apart from Pakistan Fleet’s various successful operations, the effective execution of Exercises RIBAT and SEASPARK are the prominent achievements.

Additionally, Missile and Torpedo firings have played an effective role in enhancing our war preparedness, confidence and training. He commended the Fleet Command for undertaking the noble task of providing fresh drinking water to the residents of Gwadar and supporting own countrymen. “I would like to stress that the Government of Pakistan is fully cognizant of the force goals of Pakistan Navy, thus despite an economic crunch, our requirements are being addressed to the best of our needs”, he said.

The induction of the Modified P3C aircraft and PNS Azmat in Pakistan Naval Fleet during 2012 is a significant landmark. Additionally, with the construction of PNS Aslat and PNS Deshat (FAC(M) at Karachi shipyard, which will be formally inducted in PN Fleet in 2013, our defence capabilities will be further augmented. This year, ATR-72 aircraft will join PN and replace the ageing Fokkers. The rapid changes in the technologies for defence equipment, especially Maritime Warfare and latest developments in Naval Strategies, demand optimum professional capabilities and the highest level of proficiency. ...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Jan 2014 02:19

A good snippet (from 2006) on how awesome the PAF is.

So some PAF Fanboy from the UK goes onto F-16.net and brags about the PAF.

And Steve Davies (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/authors/Steve_Davies) responds about quality of PAF recruits in Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals course.

Steve_Davies
12 Sep 2006, 20:34

Sorry, sallondon, but that would really surprise me. Why? Because according to contacts at Moody AFB (where Pakistani pilots attend IFF prior to going to the F-16 B-course), the majority of your guys who go there are passed simply because their instructors are given no other choice. To quote directly, most of the Pakistani students that graduate from IFF would have failed the course had they been American studs. I think that speaks volumes.

PAF may spend most of its time talking itself up in magazines with friendly journos who write glowing stuff on PAF, so PAF fanboys in UK buy their mags, but reality speaks for itself. PAF after all is a reflection of their society, and we all know the glowing standards Pak society has set in every educational and other productive endeavours

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 14 Jan 2014 11:54

Singha wrote:I guess the pakis has nowhere near the opex to run these large ships. without SM2 missiles, they depended for protection on accompanying AAW/CVN unit - something the TSPN cannot provide. however usa (for a fee) could have filled that Mk41 VLS with huge number of ESSM to provide the TSPN with a real porcupine type AKIZUKI class...

its amazing the khan can scrap 20 perfectly MLUable ships of 8000t size and not feel any pain in service delivery worldwide. speaks volumes of their build rate and staying power in a serious fight. the next 10 navies combined are not even remotely in their league.

when will they get close enough to sell this to us ?

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 14 Jan 2014 12:34

Aditya_V wrote: I am well aware of that they care a rat's ass about Indian lives, but the unintended consequence is the saving of Indian lives, Pakistan could have wanted those rifles for mischief along the LOC.

I don't think Indian OR American lives will be really be saved regardless as the Pakis will most likely turn to Comrade China to provide them with these so called "precision rifles" aka sniper rifles that China churns out. Further there are far less moralistic arms dealers in the US, in Europe and through other third party arms merchants through which they could acquire similar weaponry. Even the Russians or the Israelis might sell them equivalent weapons.

The Arms market has never been a place where morality trumps profit.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 16 Jan 2014 20:18

Link

Mandi Bahauddin: A pilot and a Co-Pilot have lost their lives as a Mirage fighter aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed near Qadirabad, Mandi Bahaduddin, say media reports.

The incident took place Thursday (today).

DPO Ameer Taimur has confirmed the plane crash and death of pilots.

More details are awaited.
- See more at: http://www.saach.tv/2014/01/16/mirage-f ... fGVEb.dpuf

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jan 2014 21:19

A Sharma wrote:Mandi Bahauddin: A pilot and a Co-Pilot have lost their lives as a Mirage fighter aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed near Qadirabad, Mandi Bahaduddin, say media reports.

This bird seems to be trainer attached to the PAF Academy, may be this Mirage 5/III/ROSE would have been really long in the tooth.

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 18 Jan 2014 03:07

http://i.imgur.com/xO1ZRgw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xTW8Qun.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jSMKcAH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/obwAn9I.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/y0DSfOx.png

^ Interview on the JF-17 Thunder (Feb 2014 AFM). Lot of important info. Some of them off the top of my head-
# Radar is KLJ-7V2
# It seems SD-10 has been fully integrated into the fighter. But JF-17 can only carry 2 of them.
# J-10B/FC-20 induction into the PAF is "wishful thinking".
# There could be a block 4 or even block 5.
# JF-17 fleet has flown for 7000 hours.
# JF-17 which crashed was due to "pilot error"(But I remember witnesses reported the aircraft on fire).

PS: Posting only links instead of embedding the images. If that is still against the rules I kindly request the Mods to remove them.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 18 Jan 2014 12:44

All iz well in the JF-17 wonderland! Things are so good that PRC is reduced to be a minor partner in this whole program!

"Our pilots are best"
"Our marketing is best"
"We co-designed everything"
"Our weapons are all integrated"
"Our safety record is best"

And all this in an interview to George Mader who is no Alan Warnes type suck up.

krish.pf wrote:http://i.imgur.com/xO1ZRgw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xTW8Qun.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jSMKcAH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/obwAn9I.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/y0DSfOx.png

^ Interview on the JF-17 Thunder (Feb 2014 AFM). Lot of important info. Some of them off the top of my head-
# Radar is KLJ-7V2
# It seems SD-10 has been fully integrated into the fighter. But JF-17 can only carry 2 of them.
# J-10B/FC-20 induction into the PAF is "wishful thinking".
# There could be a block 4 or even block 5.
# JF-17 fleet has flown for 7000 hours.
# JF-17 which crashed was due to "pilot error"(But I remember witnesses reported the aircraft on fire).

PS: Posting only links instead of embedding the images. If that is still against the rules I kindly request the Mods to remove them.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 19 Jan 2014 10:36

http://www.dawn.com/news/1080736/paf-ai ... ots-killed

ISLAMABAD: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage aircraft crashed in Qadirabad area of Mandi Bahauddin, killing both pilot and the co-pilot, a PAF spokesman said on Thursday.

The spokesman said that PAF has ordered an inquiry to ascertain the cause of crash.

No loss of civilian lives or property was reported in the area where the wreckage of the aircraft fell.

According to eye witnesses, the pilots of the aircraft embraced Shahadat (martyrdom) while avoiding the fall of the aircraft in a populated area, said the spokesman.

The Pakistan Air Force has a fleet of Chinese aircraft including F-7PGs and A-5s, plus US-built F-16s and French Mirages. It has also acquired JF-17, or Thunder jets, manufactured jointly by China and Pakistan.

Share

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Jan 2014 12:00

X Posted from the "Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Jan 04, 2014" thread.

SanjayC wrote:Twenty Pakistani soldiers killed in attack on army convoy

Will the uniformed Jihadi’s of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan be telling the kin of their dead that this is what the “Jihad in the path of Allah” part of the motto of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan amounts to when confronted by the “More Green” un-uniformed Jihadi’s by way of a demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan?

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 19 Jan 2014 20:31

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 Jan 2014 08:32

X Posted from the "Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Jan 04, 2014" thread.

Roperia wrote:Blast kills eight in Rawalpindi | Yawn

Site of the blast is a market near GHQ. Yawn describes it as a highly sensitive area.

Another article on the demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan outside the offices of the National Logistic Cell, an organisation run by the uniformed Jihadi’s of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, in Rawalpindi:

Blast in Rawalpindi kills 4, injures 12

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Jan 2014 09:04

So K-9 has arrived, but it can talk only to JF-17 if at all.

Questions also whether a turboprop gives out enough power to run a long range AESA, will be nightmare for fighter escorts to be around a low speed aircraft, they literally will be doing circles around it, and it will take time for the aircraft to take off from say Quetta to be an area where it radar can cover the border area, upside could be its endurance.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jan 2014 06:50

^^^ how can it endurance (or lack of it) be an upside, it is pitifully shotlegged, has a slow speed and if it remains in one genral area for long, Desi AWACS can vector in an attack package to finish it ofatBVR range with a salvo of 5-6 BVRAAM whjich would leave it with a very small escape zone.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 22 Jan 2014 12:22

Shrinivasan wrote:^^^ how can it endurance (or lack of it) be an upside, it is pitifully shotlegged, has a slow speed and if it remains in one genral area for long, Desi AWACS can vector in an attack package to finish it ofatBVR range with a salvo of 5-6 BVRAAM whjich would leave it with a very small escape zone.

Any Awacs would generally remain in one general area (flying in race course pattern) to monitor a sector of interest. So naturally one can get an idea of the Awacs path after seeing its flying pattern. However IMHO, you can't just pull some quick shots even on the slow moving Awacs. It would probably detect the attack package long before they near in and will try to evade by moving inside or probably direct its own planes to the aggressors for its defence.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2014 13:18

Y-8 specs
Maximum speed: 660km/h (357 knots,410 mph)
Cruise speed: 550km/h (300 knots,342 mph)
Range: 5,615km (3030nm,3485 mi)

cruise speed is 70% of a typical jetliner. but range if the above is with payload is quite good. flying 600km to the SE from quetta or jacobabad it could cover a patrol area, and fly back 600km(1 hr) after completing its mission. that still leaves nearly 4000km worth of flying time which @ 500kmph translates to 8 hrs of station time?

am I am being taken in by brochure here? the AN12 wiki gives a range of 3600km with max load

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 22 Jan 2014 17:02

Singha wrote:Y-8 specs
Maximum speed: 660km/h (357 knots,410 mph)
Cruise speed: 550km/h (300 knots,342 mph)
Range: 5,615km (3030nm,3485 mi)

cruise speed is 70% of a typical jetliner. but range if the above is with payload is quite good. flying 600km to the SE from quetta or jacobabad it could cover a patrol area, and fly back 600km(1 hr) after completing its mission. that still leaves nearly 4000km worth of flying time which @ 500kmph translates to 8 hrs of station time?

am I am being taken in by brochure here? the AN12 wiki gives a range of 3600km with max load

Singha ji,

Looks like brochuritis here

. Range you specified is mentioned as with max fuel for AN-12. Which is powered by AI-20 engines (which is license mfg by China as WJ6 powering Y-8). Here is what Wiki says about AI-20

Code: Select all

Performance
Maximum power output: 3,149 kW (4,250 ehp) (take-off), 1,938 kW (2,600 ehp) (max cruise)
Overall pressure ratio: 7.6:1 (take-off) to 9.2:1 (cruise)
Turbine inlet temperature: 900°C (1,652°F)
Power-to-weight ratio: 2.8 kW/kg (1.9 hp/lb) (take-off power)

So Y8 Wikipage shows the max power output (take-off power) and max range with min cargo. So we can deduce that AWACS will not have those performance specs in reality

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jan 2014 00:52

Avinandan wrote: However IMHO, you can't just pull some quick shots even on the slow moving Awacs. It would probably detect the attack package long before they near in and will try to evade by moving inside or probably direct its own planes to the aggressors for its defence.

As I stated in my post, an Indian AWACS can detect this short legged AWACS and vector couple of fighters to take care of it at BVR ranges. if couple of Mirage / Mig-29 / SU30 / Tejas launch a salvo or 5-6 (or even more) BVRAAM at the AWACS and its protective bubble how will the Paki AWACS detect it with enough warning, the Desi AWACS has a far longer range.. the fighters are going to be vectored in a direction which will give them the maximum element of surprise and BVRAAMs travel at Mach 4+ giving the AWACS very less escape time.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 26 Jan 2014 11:12

Not sure if it should be here or humour thread.
Paki marines

:

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 26 Jan 2014 21:11

jamwal wrote:Not sure if it should be here or humour thread.
Paki marines :

Pak Marines have following roles:

1. Naval base security
2. Air defence (MANPADS and air defence artillery).
3. Security of marsh areas in Sindh

Being a post independence creation, there is no similar counterpart on the Indian side. Over here some of the roles are performed by the BSF, SPB and ICG.

PM does not have any capability for amphibious assault. There is a grand total of 4 Griffon-2000s. In comparison ICG operates a fleet of 10-20 Griffon-4000s. Apart from that they are equipped with some fiber glass "assault boats" from Thailand.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 28 Jan 2014 02:09

jamwal wrote:

Pray can someone explain what the Paki Marines are doing? this might be a question for the nukkad thread so please bear with me.

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 06 Feb 2014 00:21

All is not well in the JF-17 world. Chinese are smart businessmen. They are peddling their F-7s and K-8s over JF-17 in the JF-17 target market. In the end money is tallel and deepel than anything for the Chinese.

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 06 Feb 2014 00:33

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Feb 2014 02:56

jamwal wrote:Not sure if it should be here or humour thread.
Paki marines :

I see US marines smartly in cover behind some sandbags.

Wonder why the sandbags are so colorful though.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Feb 2014 09:49

krish.pf wrote:Apologies if posted before.

JF-17 evolution from the MiG-21(F-7), and Family tree.

http://s13.postimg.org/l52243t13/grumma ... _1_big.jpg
http://s13.postimg.org/3t1pinzjr/grumma ... _2_big.jpg
http://s13.postimg.org/u2ms1glh3/grumma ... _3_big.jpg
http://s13.postimg.org/6ux36d22f/jf_17_prototype_1.jpg
http://s13.postimg.org/rivql3nav/super_7_jf_17_1.jpg
http://s13.postimg.org/ha39f9z93/super_7_jf_17_2.jpg
http://s13.postimg.org/miyad5ho7/mig_21 ... family.jpg
http://s13.postimg.org/aq0h8xl87/jf_17_mig_21.jpg

Pics are too big to be embedded. So giving them as links.

These pics of Chinese seem to suggest that the JF-17 is an evolution of the J-7 which the Chinese have been working since the mid 80's with help from Americans for F-86 Saber related advancements. Not a Mig-33, Isreali Lavi , J-10A ot anything like it.

raj.devan · Post by **raj.devan** » 06 Feb 2014 16:02

Is this the right thread to discuss India's military doctrine vis a vis Pakistan? Considering that cold start has been discarded I was looking for information on what current doctrine dictates as a military response to Pakistani provocation.