Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 10 Jan 2014 17:44

Agni IV test on January 18th..

nash · Post by **nash** » 10 Jan 2014 17:51

when is the launch of "Nirbhay" and K-4, it was suppose to be done by now..

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Jan 2014 18:39

Prithvi missile production was closed in FY2008-09. Jan 2009 to be precise.
http://164.100.47.4/newrsquestion/ShowQn.aspx
http://archive.deccanherald.com/Content ... 122568.asp

Max production per annum was 15
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ike-weapon

Given that a Prithvi missile has life between 5-10 years, SFC needs to start testing something else soon

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jan 2014 01:02

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20710
- maneuverable reentry
- ring laser gyro
- composite rocket motor
- 1T payload
- 4K S2S range
- 17T total (composites)
- 2 stage 20 mtr.
- road/rail mobile

Hopefully, canister launched this time.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 12 Jan 2014 01:27

quoted from http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1573401

Brahmos
Surface-launched, Block I

Ship-launched, anti-ship variant (operational)
Land-launched, anti-ship variant (In induction, tested on 10 December 2010)

Surface-launched, upgraded variants

Anti-aircraft carrier variant (tested in March 2012) - the missile gained the capability to attack aircraft carriers using the supersonic vertical dive variant of the missile that could travel up to 290 km.[78]

Why is the Anti-ship variant different from a Anti-aircraft carrier variant ?
Why is supersonic vertical dive required to take out a carrier but not for other ships Or why a regular antiship Brahmos not good enough for a carrier?

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 12 Jan 2014 02:05

i doubt it will take out the carrier. Vertical dive might be more for blasting a hole on the runway and the deck below. Carrier wont sink but cant be used any further or too costly to repair.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jan 2014 02:12

carrier is no use if the flight deck is destroyed.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 12 Jan 2014 02:59

AdityaM wrote:Why is the Anti-ship variant different from a Anti-aircraft carrier variant ?
Why is supersonic vertical dive required to take out a carrier but not for other ships Or why a regular antiship Brahmos not good enough for a carrier?

Most anti-ship missiles aim to hit the target at the waterline. Unless the ship is flooded its not going to sink even its effectively out of action (though sealing bulkheads works to limit that).

Sinking a carrier is much harder and as said above, its much more efficient to put it out of action by disabling the flight deck.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jan 2014 09:54

HK Rout in New Ind Exp
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 992781.ece

For me the main point is AIV payload(range 4K km) is 1 tonne and AIII payload is 1.5 tonnes(range 3K km).
Very interesting possibilities.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jan 2014 10:03

it is high time we just launch a 10-15000 Km ICBM and be done with it.Once launched there can be no ambiguity about the technology and all the games will just stop.Would a launch from bay of Bengal and crossing the antarctic and splashingon the opposite side be enough

srin · Post by **srin** » 12 Jan 2014 11:25

ramana wrote:HK Rout in New Ind Exp
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 992781.ece

For me the main point is AIV payload(range 4K km) is 1 tonne and AIII payload is 1.5 tonnes(range 3K km).
Very interesting possibilities.

A4 weighs 17t and has range of 4000 km
A5 weighs 50t and has range of 5000 km

Granted that A5 can carry a 1.5t warhead, but still very interesting.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Jan 2014 12:20

Assuming A4 is all composite, that must be making the bulk of the difference in weight.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Jan 2014 19:59

The missile range is double with same weight, weight saving in use of composite has gone to densely packing more fuel

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jan 2014 20:38

but since the volume(shape) has remained the same, I dont see how they can pack in more fuel.
with the same fuel it might increase the range though as the speed might be faster.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jan 2014 20:40

They also developed a coating for the nosecone which allowed a 25-30% increase in range.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jan 2014 21:20

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... sile-range

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jan 2014 19:23

the same technique is also used to reduce drag in experimental research on turbine jet engines (klimov study) using plasma injection in the combustion chamber. heating the surrounding air has the drag reduction effects. but chromium to melt (>1900*C ?) would happen only during re-entry, no? so, how are we accounting for 47% increase in range? is that 47% increase in reentry and within atmosphere zone? mid course is ruled out for ballistics i guess.

simply put, I would keep all our strategic missile system at english units, those that are reported as metric in range.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Jan 2014 20:54

Singha wrote:but since the volume(shape) has remained the same, I dont see how they can pack in more fuel.
with the same fuel it might increase the range though as the speed might be faster.

I think with Agni IV, they let out the true range, for the other missiles, it was kept down so as to not ratchet up any tensions in Khan land. Also Agni IV incorporated so many new innovations which were perfected over multiple projects, multiple tests spread over multiple years that it was felt prudent to come out with it.

Also Agni IV paved the way for a quick launch of Agni V with which it shares so many features. Also both these have been designed to be cannisterized and road-mobile from the grounds up.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 13 Jan 2014 21:57

srin wrote:
ramana wrote:HK Rout in New Ind Exp
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 992781.ece

For me the main point is AIV payload(range 4K km) is 1 tonne and AIII payload is 1.5 tonnes(range 3K km).
Very interesting possibilities.
A4 weighs 17t and has range of 4000 km
A5 weighs 50t and has range of 5000 km

Granted that A5 can carry a 1.5t warhead, but still very interesting.

I see only two possibility :
1. A5 current range is highly underrated and should be > 8000 KM
2. if A5 range currently is actually 5000 KM then packing all the advanced A4 tech in a missile with weight of 50 tonne should then give it a range of around 10-12 K Km

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jan 2014 23:18

srin, Compare the AIII and the AV as they have same payload (1.5t).

The difference is the third stage in the AV.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 15 Jan 2014 00:27

thanks for replying

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 16 Jan 2014 21:40

Zee News ‏@ZeeNews 1h

#India planning Agni-4 missile test next week http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/in ... 04610.html …
--------------------------------->>

New Delhi: India is planning to carry out a development trial of the 4,000 km-range nuclear weapon capable Agni-4 missile off the coast of Odisha next week.

This would be the third test-firing of the missile, which has the second-largest striking range in country's weapon arsenal.

..
This missile has been branded as a quantum leap in terms of missile technology by the DRDO as it is lighter in weight and has two stages of Solid Propulsion and a Payload with Re-entry heat shield.

The indigenous Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS) and Micro Navigation System (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been successfully flown in guidance mode in this weapon system during earlier trials.

Compared to the Pershing missile of the US in terms of technology, the Agni-IV has many cutting-edge technologies which can meet global standards.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jan 2014 11:16

Today is 18-Jan, no news on A-IV test

srin · Post by **srin** » 17 Jan 2014 11:28

Aditya_V wrote:Today is 18-Jan, no news on A-IV test

Hmm - just wondering ... if there was a test planned, they would have issued a NOTAM to civilian pilots for that area... Which means it would be public domain info, rt ?

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 17 Jan 2014 12:06

Aditya_V wrote:Today is 18-Jan

Umm.. no its not

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 18 Jan 2014 17:08

Test now on Jan 20th, Monday. Credible report?

www.jknewspoint.com/newsdet.aspx?q=29792‎

India to test fire Agni IV on Jan 20
UNI
New Delhi, January 16
India will test-fire its nuclear-capable strategic missile Agni-IV with a strike range of about 4000 km from a test range off Odisha coast on January 20. The launch will be carried out with the help of a mobile launcher from launch complex-4 of ITR at Wheeler Island, about 100 km from Balasore, sources in DRDO told UNI. A high performance on-board computer with distributed avionics architecture, high speed reliable communication bus and a full Digital Control System will be used to control and guide the missile to the target.

"The missile is equipped with modern and compact avionics to provide a high level of reliability," sources said.
Agni IV is a sophisticated light weight missile with two stages of solid propulsion. The payload, with a re-entry heat shield, can withstand temperature of more than 3000 degree Celsius.

The missile is undergoing developmental trials by country's premier defence research organisation. This will be its fourth test, considered a major milestone, before the system is inducted in the armed forces, sources said. The previous trial of the missile was carried out in September 2012.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Jan 2014 17:53

Any updates on the AMB test that was also supposed to take place? IIRC was originally planned for Dec-13 end, got postponed to Jan-14.

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Jan 2014 19:18

Also Nirbhay second test?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Jan 2014 07:27

From this link

The DRDO will fire Agni-V from a canister in two or three months .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2014 08:21

When is AIV test?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 20 Jan 2014 11:05

^^^^ Should be underway now.

Developmental Trial of Agni-IV Missile Today
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 009627.ece

India is all set to carry out the fourth developmental trial of 4,000 km range nuclear capable Agni-IV missile from a defence base off Odisha coast on Monday. The missile is likely to be test fired from the Wheeler Island test facility.

Defence sources said while range integration had been completed for the test, initial countdown has begun at the test range. The intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) would be fired in full operational configuration between 8 am and 12 noon on Monday.

“The range is ready for the test and so also the mission team. The missile would be made vertical prior to the test and it would be launched after a special puja and some ceremonial offerings at the test range,” said the sources.

Though Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik and Chief Secretary Jugal Kishore Mohapatra were slated to witness the test for the first time, the CM’s visit was cancelled at the last minute.

The trial is aimed at revalidating some new technologies incorporated in the Agni-IV system and gauging the performance of its subsystems. The indigenously developed surface-to-surface missile is the most advanced long-range ballistic missile capable of being launched within minutes from a self-contained road mobile launcher.

Having a strike range of around 4,000 km, the two-stage solid propelled missile is 20 metre tall and weighs around 17 tonne. Compared to the Perishing missile of the US in terms of technology, Agni-IV has many cutting-edge technologies, which can meet global standards.

Agni-IV is better than 3,000-km range Agni-III in terms of performance envelop. It can be fired from locations deeper in the Indian hinterland, which will be very difficult for the enemy to track. The missile also possesses a submarine launch capability. It would be virtually indestructible and unstoppable in times of war.

The missile equipped with state of the art avionics and fifth generation on board computer has the latest features to correct and guide in-flight disturbances. It was first tested on December 10, 2010 which had failed while its second and third tests on November 15, 2011 and September 19, 2012 were successful.

Defence experts said with the twin success of 5,000 km range Agni-V missile India would emerge as another missile power in the region after the induction of Agni-IV, Agni-V and submarines launched K-15 missiles.

India’s arsenal is boasted of missiles like three variants of Prithvi, ship-launched Dhanush, BrahMos, Agni-I, Agni-II and Agni-III besides anti-tank Nag, Akash, Trishul and air-to-air Astra. This apart, new generation missiles like Sourya and Prahaar are undergoing developmental trials.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 20 Jan 2014 11:42

Compared to the Perishing missile of the US in terms of technology, Agni-IV has many cutting-edge technologies, which can meet global standards.

How does it compare to the imperishable Pakistani Shaheen developed pindigenously and equal-equal to the SS-27 Topol-M, hain?

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 20 Jan 2014 11:53

PTI flash

India test-fires nuclear-capable Agni-IV missile from the Odisha coast: Defence sources.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Jan 2014 12:10

The missile also possesses a submarine launch capability. It would be virtually indestructible and unstoppable in times of war.

This is the A-IISL/K4?

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 20 Jan 2014 12:14

Agni—IV missile successfully test fired | The Hindu

India today successfully test-fired its nuclear—capable strategic missile Agni—IV, with a strike range of about 4000 km, from a test range off the Odisha coast.

“The test firing was a total success. The missile travelled its full range,” M V K V Prasad, the director of Integrated Test Range, told PTI.
...
A high performance on—board computer with distributed avionics architecture, a high speed reliable communication bus and a fully digital control system were used to control and guide the missile to the target, the sources said.

“It is equipped with modern and compact avionics to provide high level of reliability,” a DRDO official said.

“The state—of—the—art Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (INS) and Micro Navigation System (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been incorporated into the missile system in guidance mode,” the sources said.

The sophisticated missile is lighter in weight and has two stages of solid propulsion. The payload, with a re—entry heat shield can withstand temperature of more than 3000 degree Celsius, a defence scientist said.
...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Jan 2014 12:17

Is it practical to have a 20-22 meter to be carried in a submarine? I think that is just to state that the missile can be cold launched from a canister.

Meanwhile

Agni IV Missile successfully test fired

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 20 Jan 2014 13:43

From the Hindu Article posted above

Avinash Chander, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister and DRDO Director-General, said “the mission went off perfectly well” with Agni-IV reaching a height of about 850 km and achieving its full range of 4,000 km. The success “opens a new missile ready for induction” into the Army, he said.

A team from the Army “participated in the launch and was involved in all preparations for the launch,” he added. The missile would be handed over to the user now and its serial production would start.

Does he mean team from SFC? I thought this missile would be operated by SFC post its induction then what is IA team doing in the launch preparation?

Love to see this missile fully inducted and next tests will become as routine as Prithvi test

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 20 Jan 2014 14:12

sattili wrote:From the Hindu Article posted above

Avinash Chander, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister and DRDO Director-General, said “the mission went off perfectly well” with Agni-IV reaching a height of about 850 km and achieving its full range of 4,000 km. The success “opens a new missile ready for induction” into the Army, he said.

A team from the Army “participated in the launch and was involved in all preparations for the launch,” he added. The missile would be handed over to the user now and its serial production would start.
Does he mean team from SFC? I thought this missile would be operated by SFC post its induction then what is IA team doing in the launch preparation?

Love to see this missile fully inducted and next tests will become as routine as Prithvi test

SFC is a tri-services command which is composed of units from all 3 services - mainly Army Missile Units (for land based missiles), designated Air Force Squadrons (Aircraft delivered nukes) and Navy Nuclear Powered Submarines (SLBMs). Since this is a land-based missile, an Army Unit which will be part of SFC was at hand.

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 20 Jan 2014 14:56

KiranM wrote: SFC is a tri-services command which is composed of units from all 3 services - mainly Army Missile Units (for land based missiles), designated Air Force Squadrons (Aircraft delivered nukes) and Navy Nuclear Powered Submarines (SLBMs). Since this is a land-based missile, an Army Unit which will be part of SFC was at hand.

I understand that SFC is Tri-services command yada..yada..yada. However my question was why didn't they call the specific Army unit as SFC? For Prithvi or Agni I tests they specifically mentioned that it was SFC which fired the missile.

Unless this particular IA unit which is getting trained on Agni IV, will join the SFC along with the missile(induction) and until then they are not called as SFC? Is that how it works or am I missing something?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Jan 2014 15:30

sattili wrote: I understand that SFC is Tri-services command yada..yada..yada. However my question was why didn't they call the specific Army unit as SFC? For Prithvi or Agni I tests they specifically mentioned that it was SFC which fired the missile.

Unless this particular IA unit which is getting trained on Agni IV, will join the SFC along with the missile(induction) and until then they are not called as SFC? Is that how it works or am I missing something?

SFC is a Tri-Services command which exercise operational and administrative control of the nuclear delivery assets. The units under this SFC come from all the three services but do not loose their individual and parent identity. For example, 333 Missile Group of Indian Army which is supposed to be custodian of Prithvi Missiles falls under SFC. 333 Missile Group would have multiple Missile Regiments (which belong to Regiment of Artillery) under it.

So, SFC firing the Prithvi Missile simple means IA's missile group or Prithvi Missile Squadron of IAF firing the missile. Personnel from the Missile Regiment of IA would have participated in the launch - but one cannot term it as SFC launch because missile is yet to be inducted in the Service.

Post edited to make corrections