Artillery: News & Discussion

[member_28041]

I am not able to find the source, but it seems we inducted just 300 of the 1000 ordered and there are problems in importing its ammo per the link below
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... associates

just as anything which increases the superiority of the IA , can be used in low intensity conflict and inflicts pain on PA is very allergic to the americans and their TSPian friends (155mm , any desi project intended for IA overmatch like arjun), this one too was surely targeted in a systematic way.

the nature of politics in this land is that people can wander around naked and shit in anyone's garden, but the DHOTI must remain spotlessly clean after the deed is done

There goes the indigeneous effort on Vidhwansask by OFB as smoke.
The current weight of Vidhwansask is becuase it has the ability to fire till 2000m and it actually weighted less compared to the denel weapon.

As per the link if the army is looking for a 1000m weapon, then shoud'nt the OFB have given at least an oppourtunity to produce a similar weapon instead of jumping for import again and licene manufaturing with "FULL TOT/screw driver assembly" ?

[vic]

As soon as OFB reverse engineered and offered Vidhawansk, the requirement was changed for the AMR rifle to weight less than 15kg to knock it out.

[dinesh_kimar]

There goes the indigeneous effort on Vidhwansask by OFB as smoke.

Truly Sad.

In fact, a post from another thread speaks about launching a Mars Orbiter , yet calling for Tender to Import an Assault Rifle.

Many Systems need final approval from end user, in this case DG Artillery. Noting the 120mm LR Mortar Saga, where the QRs listed were "not available anywhere else in the world", it seems, IMHO, Army could have inducted some systems , maybe as a Mk-I.

[ramana]

agupta, The CBM is surmised from the fact that a non-entity like Renuka Choudary, MP from Andhra Pradesh brought up corruption charges and the Denel deal was scrubbed.
The AMR is a updated concept of the Boyes Anti Tank Rifle using a cannon shell versus a solid core tungsten bullet. Germans also had similar weapons in early years of WWII.
Denel might have benfitted from migration of Germans scientists after WWII.

I like the OFB approach of different changable barrels for the different cartridges. My gripe is about the 20mm shell which is not made by OFB. I wish they used the 23mm shell which is already made.

Did you see in the LOC flare up IA had to use 40mm Bofors (2pdrs) to destroy the bunkers?

[koti]

Can't imagine BSF chauki's needing that feature. Its likely that there's more volume of 12.7mm ammo in the IA logistics than 23mm

I think he was mentioning why 20mm vs 23mm, not .50cal.

That said, the NTW-20 does seem much heavier than its contemporaries to begin with

I think it is not. The only thing with notably lower weight is the Croatian RT-20, but it is a recoilless design and has much lesser mussle velocity then the Vidhvanshak/NTW-20.

[ramana]

agupta, then they are looking at the Barrett stable of AMR which are really elephant guns!

The NTW-20 can take out a bunker. The Barrett can take out a truck engine.


Koti is right. I was arguing for 23mm which is already there vs the 20mm which needs to be purchased.
23 mm comes in HEI and AP.
I once did the cartridge comaprison long ago. They are about same. But then it would introduce another round n IA.

[putnanja]

Tarmak blog has an article on Catapult based on Arjun chasis. Some good pictures too.

DRDO to unveil catapult gun system built on Arjun MBT Mk-I chassis | First public display likely at Defexpo | GSQR trials in May

...
CVRDE Director Dr P Sivakumar told Express on Wednesday that the catapult has adopted advanced technologies of Arjun MBT automotive system along with 130 mm (SP) M-46 gun system. “It offers the users in the battle field a self propelled system with excellent fire power, high mobility and required protection. The catapult would fulfil the interim and immediate requirements of Artillery to replace two Regiments holding Vijayanta Catapult Guns, there by extending the life of 130 mm guns,” Dr Sivakumar said. Tipped as the fastest realisation project of DRDO, the Arjun Catapult had its first field development trials in November 2012, four moths after receiving the Army requirement.
...
He said the Arjun Catapult has better stability, accuracy and consistency. “The gun barrel is mainly used to engage in indirect fire up to a maximum range of 27.4 km. The gun can also be fired directly on targets up to 1.4 km range. It can be fired at various angles of elevation as well. The catapult has STANAG Level II protection (a NATO standardisation agreement) for the crew from the side as well as from the top. It has low silhouette and has integrated fire fighting detection and suppression system,” he further said.
Ergonomics using anthropometric data of Indian troops has been kept in view while designing the fighting and engine compartments and maximum possible protection to crew have been ensured. Embedded with a global positioning system, the catapult is armed with night vision devices for both the driver and the commander.
...

[Aditya_V]

I wish we can have some 155mm captapults, meanwhile, can we get 130mm guns from former Soviet block make 400 Catapults, given the power of the Arjun engine I am sure these will be useful in Ladakh as well

[Shrinivasan]

We should Induct couple of regiments of 130mm Arjun-Catapults into IA and deploy them (1 each) with the Armoured Divs, Rather than wait for 155mm SPH, this would be an interim solution...

[Shrinivasan]

I wish we can have some 155mm captapults, meanwhile, can we get 130mm guns from former Soviet block make 400 Catapults, given the power of the Arjun engine I am sure these will be useful in Ladakh as well

Aditya, 155mm SPH will come in due course, we recently read about a plan to resurrect the Bhim project... These 130mm guns should be treated as an interim solution. Maybe help IA to devise tactics etc... Eventually we would need a decent number of 130mm and 155mm SPH for both our Armoured and RAPIDS apart from the SPH regiments which we badly need in our Arty Divs...

[Aditya G]

Noob pooch; why does the Catapult system point backwards?

[Rupak]

Aditya G,
Since the engine pack is rear mounted and the gun is fixed, mounting the gun rear facing reduces the footprint of the entire system. This makes for easier storage and transportation. It is therefore the lowest cost (time and money) conversion!

[member_20317]

^^ should help in absorbing the recoil better too. Imagine a heavy gun recoiling in the direction the heavy engine is mounted. I wish they install the 155 mm 45 cal gun onto that and probably add a powered spade too. Then order a total of 150 of these at 15 Crore a piece.

[Singha]

how does the gun traverse right and left?

[member_20317]

^^ - won't except perhaps to something like 12* either side. But being tracked, should be possible to change the orientation fast enough without having to change positions drastically. Also with turret it will probably cost 25 Crore a piece and a politics that you cannot get out of.

[sum]

^^ Video of the Arjun Catapult trials posted on Tarmak007 FB site

[Kakarat]

From militaryphotos.net

[Nitesh]

Why they are using the rope to fire? Or I am mistaken here

[sattili]

^^^^^
To Make sure that the first ever firing of the gun is safe for the Jawans operating it. Obviously no body wants to risk the lifes while testing the gun for the very first time. The second video actually shows Jawans standing on the tank and operating it.

[tushar_m]

does anyone notice the stability of platform(arjun) when the round is fired ???(almost no effect )

its very good & it may handle 155mm very easily

[sattili]

does anyone notice the stability of platform(arjun) when the round is fired ???(almost no effect )

its very good & it may handle 155mm very easily

+1.

Remember Arjun was originally used for Bhim SPG which is 155mm. Wish that project gets revived soon.

BTW, is it possible to mount TATA SED's 155mm gun on Arjun chassis like this catapult (minus the turret as in Bhim)? Wishful thinking, this might give us a quick win solution while Bhim development and testing is completed later.

[arijitkm]

Strolling on TOI, there is an interesting news. Nothing heard about it before.

Army to get 155 mm 'dhanush' gun, advanced radar equipment soon

The Indian Army will soon be adding the 155 mm gun 'Dhanush' to its range of guns which have been proving their prowess and deadly firepower in various battlefields.

The Indian army, which already has the 155 mm Bofors gun, will induct Dhanush, which would add even more might to the regiment of artillery, said army officials at the Exercise Mahasangram, which was conducted in the firing ranges of the School of Artillery at Deolali on Tuesday.


Army officials said that while the Bofors has a rate of fire of three rounds per 14 seconds, the indigenous Dhanush could fire eight rounds per minute. Dhanush, which in the trial stage, would soon be inducted, said the army officers.
.........

Is it Desi 'Bofors' ? can anyone enlighten me on this.

[sum]

^^ So many versions of 155 mm desi stuff floating around that completely lost which is which!

All of them seem to be in perennial trials though!

[sattili]

Strolling on TOI, there is an interesting news. Nothing heard about it before.

Army to get 155 mm 'dhanush' gun, advanced radar equipment soon

The Indian Army will soon be adding the 155 mm gun 'Dhanush' to its range of guns which have been proving their prowess and deadly firepower in various battlefields.

The Indian army, which already has the 155 mm Bofors gun, will induct Dhanush, which would add even more might to the regiment of artillery, said army officials at the Exercise Mahasangram, which was conducted in the firing ranges of the School of Artillery at Deolali on Tuesday.


Army officials said that while the Bofors has a rate of fire of three rounds per 14 seconds, the indigenous Dhanush could fire eight rounds per minute. Dhanush, which in the trial stage, would soon be inducted, said the army officers.
.........

Is it Desi 'Bofors' ? can anyone enlighten me on this.

Yes looks like its Desi bofors mfg by OFB.

I couldn't find many references on google, everyone seems to carry same news which appeared in TOI. However there were 2 interesting links:

1. A tender issued by OFB- "Supply of Forging For Planetary Pinion To Drg. No. P155 Hrg-3002-3 For Project Dhanush"
http://www.tenders.tradeindia.com/tende ... s/5210922/

2. There is a reference to Dhanush 155mm gun system developed by OFB in Defence Accounts Department (DAD) news magazine in Oct 2013
http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... fpS7Qq49Hw
scroll to page 20 bottom of left side column

I am assuming these are the ones produced based on FH-77B TOT.

OT...they have a diagram showing the SWOT analysis of OFB on Page 21 of that DAD magazine...thought it might be interesting to see what they think of themselves

[Manish_Sharma]

Could this be Dhanush?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_155_mm_artillery_gun

The DRDO 155 mm artillery gun project was started by India since there are delays associated with the procurement of artillery guns due to issues of corruption and irregularities. Many of the companies that bid for the contract are either blacklisted for utilizing unfair means to gain the contract leading to single vendor issues and guns not meeting the requirement of the Indian Army. The artillery guns were not procured after the Bofors scandal. Hence it was planned to replace the older guns with a modern indigenously developed 155mm artillery gun.[1] DRDO along with private companies including L&T, Bharat forge are developing a 155 mm artillery gun, that is to be handed over to the Indian Army for trials in 2013.

In a presentation made to defence minister A K Antony, the Army informed DRDO that it would place orders for over 140 howitzers after the artillery guns are field tested. DRDO’s Pune-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) is the lead research agency to develop the 155mm 52 calibre indigenous howitzer for the Army.

[sattili]

^^^^^
No, I think DRDO guns is a completely new development from scratch for future use. It would be 155mm/52 cal

As per the DAD magazine link I posted earlier, Dhanush is a OFB project. Most likely the gun based on FH77-B designs that OFB received during the Bofors TOT. Reason for my thinking is that this project is listed as one of the achievements of OFB along with others like Ammo, INSAS Carbine and few other projects.

Dhanush could be 155mm/39cal like the original FH77-B. Or 45cal developed by OFB Kanpur. Picture on Militaryphotos.net
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... -155mm-gun

Added later: "Dhanush" is the project name for producing the Desi Bofors. 144 guns were ordered in 2012. (Credit for the Links goes to Kunal Biswas from Militaryphotos.net)
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19668
http://epaper.patrika.com/c/2023710

So its good news that Army is finally getting these guns this year.

[ramana]

sattili, Good and persistent work in finding out the details.

Can someone translate the hindi e-patrika news item. Looks like 100 rounds were fired.

[SanjayC]

Here is the translation:

Over 100 rounds fired from Dhanush

The internal trials of the indigenous Bofors gun Dhanush have now been completed. Over 100 rounds were fired at Orissa's Balasore range in trials that lasted for about two weeks.

During firing, the gun could hit targets 38 km away. The fifth prototype of the 155 mm "Desi" Bofors gun Dhanush, made by the Gun Carriage Factory, was tested in trials that began in the third week of November at the Balasore range.

The trials of the gun, that lasted till the first week of December, gave very good results. According to sources, during testing of the earlier four prototypes, some defects were observed related to the automatic shell loading mechanism. These problems were later rectified.

The Factory management has been taking special care in manufacturing the gun after the barrel of the fourth prototype burst during testing on August 10.

After the trials at Balasore, the results of the tests would now be analyzed. Thereafter, the gun would be handed over to the army for winter trials.

The army will test the gun in January in Sikkim. Preparations have already begun for this.

[Will]

does anyone notice the stability of platform(arjun) when the round is fired ???(almost no effect )

its very good & it may handle 155mm very easily

+1.

Remember Arjun was originally used for Bhim SPG which is 155mm. Wish that project gets revived soon.

BTW, is it possible to mount TATA SED's 155mm gun on Arjun chassis like this catapult (minus the turret as in Bhim)? Wishful thinking, this might give us a quick win solution while Bhim development and testing is completed later.

Isn't the TATA gun based on the Denel gun that was part of the Bhim? So maybe not wishful thinking after all.

[sattili]

Here is the translation:

Over 100 rounds fired from Dhanush

The internal trials of the indigenous Bofors gun Dhanush have now been completed. Over 100 rounds were fired at Orissa's Balasore range in trials that lasted for about two weeks.

During firing, the gun could hit targets 38 km away. The fifth prototype of the 155 mm "Desi" Bofors gun Dhanush, made by the Gun Carriage Factory, was tested in trials that began in the third week of November at the Balasore range.

The trials of the gun, that lasted till the first week of December, gave very good results. According to sources, during testing of the earlier four prototypes, some defects were observed related to the automatic shell loading mechanism. These problems were later rectified.

The Factory management has been taking special care in manufacturing the gun after the barrel of the fourth prototype burst during testing on August 10.

After the trials at Balasore, the results of the tests would now be analyzed. Thereafter, the gun would be handed over to the army for winter trials.

The army will test the gun in January in Sikkim. Preparations have already begun for this.

Thanks SanjayC. One observation I had is that when the 155mm/45cal gun was displayed at DefExpo it is said to be developed by OFB Kanpur. This latest news talks about gun manufactured at GCF Jabalpur. Not sure if these 2 are same or different guns.

If they are different then Dhanush could be 39cal and Kanpurwala could be 45cal...am I right in my assumption?

[ramana]

The cold weather could inhibit the propellant and hence the cold weather trials to see the gun performance.
So range could be a minor shortfall.

[sattili]

Isn't the TATA gun based on the Denel gun that was part of the Bhim? So maybe not wishful thinking after all.

Will, you are right TATA SED gun is based on Denel G5.Their website lists a SPG (tracked) variant as well
http://www.tatapowersed.com/product-range.html

I know that It will not happen that's the reason for wishful thinking . Tata can supply 155/52cal guns and we have Arjun chassis why not mate them both (ala catapult) and induct 2 regiments into IA...viola! problem solved! (as Mickey says in "Mickey mouse club house" )

[Shrinivasan]

130mm or 152 mm, 39 cal or 45 cal or 52 cal, let us get couple of regiments into IA ASAP. Rather than continue this endless trials in hot, cold, summer, monsoon, winter, spring trials. we should move towards induction. I think only if there is a FIRM push from the political masters will MOD and in extension the IA spring to action.
God speed for an early induction!!!

[Shrinivasan]

Pinaka MBRL:
after multiple rounds of trials which were all deemed success, we are not seeing any news on induction. Recently in a fire power demonstration in Deolali, Corps of Arty did not even showcase the Pinaka. hopefully we are not shutting the door to an excellent indigenous product in the relentless pursuit of unobtainums

[SaiK]

Why they are using the rope to fire? Or I am mistaken here

not in the second video.
+1 on the platform robustness for 155mm

[sattili]

130mm or 152 mm, 39 cal or 45 cal or 52 cal, let us get couple of regiments into IA ASAP. Rather than continue this endless trials in hot, cold, summer, monsoon, winter, spring trials. we should move towards induction. I think only if there is a FIRM push from the political masters will MOD and in extension the IA spring to action.
God speed for an early induction!!!

Shrinivasan, please read the previous page...TOI news item quotes Army officials that 144 guns (Desi bofors) are being inducted this year. What's the point in above rant?

BTW, there is no 152mm gun being made in/for India.

[sattili]

Pinaka MBRL:
after multiple rounds of trials which were all deemed success, we are not seeing any news on induction. Recently in a fire power demonstration in Deolali, Corps of Arty did not even showcase the Pinaka. hopefully we are not shutting the door to an excellent indigenous product in the relentless pursuit of unobtainums

News from March 25,2013- http://www.brahmand.com/news/Govt-clear ... /1/10.html[/url]

NEW DELHI (PTI): To enhance Indian Army's firepower, the government has approved a Rs 1,500 crore proposal for production of more than 2,000 rockets for the Pinaka multi- barrel weapons system.
The Army requires more than 2,000 of these rockets to equip its 10-12 regiments comprising the Pinaka launchers.

......

As per the proposal, OFB, under the Department of Defence Production, will upgrade facilities at nine of its factories engaged in the production of Pinaka rockets, they said.

News from June 2013:
ARDE’s Pinaka rocket system generates Rs 2,500 crore business http://www.sakaaltimes.com/NewsDetails. ... 2991450863

PUNE: Business worth nearly Rs 2,500 crore has been generated in the domestic market from the production of indigenously developed Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) system within first three years of its production.

“The Army has begun placing orders for Pinaka MBRL for its artillery regiment. We designed the Pinaka system and it was successfully deployed in the Kargil war. Large companies like Larsen and Toubro, Tata and 15 small industries have got together to produce Pinaka MBRL along with ordnance factories,” Director of ARDE Anil Datar told Sakal Times.


“There is more requirement for this rocket system. At present, the ordnance factories are producing around 1,000 rockets per year. The Central Government has released Rs 1,800 crore upgrading the ordnance factories for enhancing the production. Once this happens, the business generated will shoot up,” Datar said.

Meanwhile, the ARDE has already begun working on the advanced version of the Pinaka MBRL, which has been christened as Pinaka MK-II.

“This new version will have a range of 60 plus km, against the 40 km range of the existing Pinaka system for greater effectiveness,” scientist ‘G’ ARDE, K M Rajan said.

In short, Pinaka Mk1 is in production and in service for few years now. Currently the enhanced version Mk.2 is undergoing user trails. They will be inducted once its done. BTW, as far as I know there is no change in the launcher system its only the rockets that are enhanced. There is big discussion on Pinaka in previous arty dhaga around Jan'2013.

Then why didn't Army fire Pinaka in their firepower demonstration? No idea, might be good Q to ask some chaiwalas.

[mody]

The report from TOI is incorrect. The army or MoD has placed an in principle LoI for 144 desi-bofors guns. The formal order will follow, after successful completion of all trials. The induction will obviously take place, much later.

The key is to complete the testing. After the winter trials that are to be conducted now, there will again be a round of summer trials. This is because the last summer trials conducted in August were not entirely successful and the barrel of one of the prototypes had problems.
If the gun clears the winter and summer trials in 2014, then we can hope for the first inductions to start in 2015. Really keeping my fingers crossed.

Can some of the gurus clarify with regards to Pinaka. I thought the system had already been inducted, with minimum 2 regiments in service. There are also plans to increase the numbers by 2 regiments per year for atleast the next 5 years or so. Also the trials for Mk-II were apparently going well.
Surprised that the MK-I Pinaka was not part of the firepower display at Devlali.

[mody]

Thanks Sattili for the the info on Pinaka.
There were reports of disruption in the production of Pinaka rockets, because of non-availability of Tungsten balls from France and very sharp increase in the price of the same.
This had resulted in the production for the rockets being well short of the requirement. Also, this at a time, when IA was actually looking to increase the quantity of the rockets.
Maybe this shortfall in the production and hence depleting inventory of the rockets, could be one of the reasons for not firing the Pinaka during the firepower display at deolali. Just speculating.
Someone else with more info, can throw more light on the situation.

[rohitvats]

^^^There was a disruption in induction of Pinaka also because of TATRA truck related issue. And AFAIK, 2 x regiments have already been inducted.