Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

disha · Post by **disha** » 23 Jan 2014 07:41

Vasu Ray/Roy G/Ramana - thanks for identifying the BGV carbon fibre RV.

I think in a shallow trajectory it is a BGV and in range extended (classic lofted) parabolic trajectory (note that it went to the height of 800 Km!) the RV comes in very fast and at a very steep angle generating very high re-entry temps. In this case the expended second stage also acts like a decoy. The re-entry speed will be in order of 4-8 Km/sec!! Giving only 10-20 secs of time from detection to differentiation to launch and interception of BMD systems.

Of course in a shallow trajectory, it will porpoise through to its target. This again will throw the BMDs out of whack.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 23 Jan 2014 08:30

disha wrote:Vasu Ray/Roy G/Ramana - thanks for identifying the BGV carbon fibre RV.

I think in a shallow trajectory it is a BGV and in range extended (classic lofted) parabolic trajectory (note that it went to the height of 800 Km!) the RV comes in very fast and at a very steep angle generating very high re-entry temps. In this case the expended second stage also acts like a decoy. The re-entry speed will be in order of 4-8 Km/sec!! Giving only 10-20 secs of time from detection to differentiation to launch and interception of BMD systems.

Of course in a shallow trajectory, it will porpoise through to its target. This again will throw the BMDs out of whack.

One thing that seems lacking is the use of high energetic propellants and emp/laser shielding technology. More research needs to be done in these fields. It is imperative that later versions have this so that we can reduce the time for boost phase intercept and thwart laser technology which will be fitted onto US ships and aircraft in the near future. The Agni-2's will probably be phased out over the next 5-10 years just like the prithvi 150's. The 250's will slowly be phased out as well in the near future. Shourya will be our short to medium range weapon along with agni 1 and our intermediate to long range will be the Agni III, IV, V.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jan 2014 09:44

And to ArunS for studying BGRVs. The 4000 deg C was a key revealer. Earlier it was the standard 3Kdeg C rigmarole which implied ballistic reentry.

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 Jan 2014 10:22

I think we should primarily concentrate on China and Pakistan.

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 23 Jan 2014 11:29

vic wrote:I think we should primarily concentrate on China and Pakistan.

Erm...every other direct neighbor (SL, Maldives, BD, Nepal, Bhutan, Myanmar) are not as much a threat and I am sure we are not overtly focusing on them instead of Cheen and Pakis.

So who else are we concentrating on?

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 23 Jan 2014 12:07

Is this missile subjected to rolling in flight hence the lack of fins to extend glide range?

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 23 Jan 2014 16:48

Thank you Vasu Raya and Ramana for identifying that gem.

ramana wrote:And to ArunS for studying BGRVs. The 4000 deg C was a key revealer. Earlier it was the standard 3Kdeg C rigmarole which implied ballistic reentry.

Can you please point me to the studies that ArunS has done? Digging through BR Archives is taking a lot of time, hoping to get educated faster

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 23 Jan 2014 18:39

sattili wrote:Thank you Vasu Raya and Ramana for identifying that gem.

ramana wrote:And to ArunS for studying BGRVS
Can you please point me to the studies that ArunS has done? Digging through BR Archives is taking a lot of time, hoping to get educated faster

Start from here:

http://www.slideshare.net/ramana_56/bgr ... -c-9600008

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/Volume13/sanjay.html

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/auth ... shwakarma/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jan 2014 19:17

Jayram wrote:Is this missile subjected to rolling in flight hence the lack of fins to extend glide range?

It doesn't have to glide. The geometry lends itself to a stable configuration with those aft flare and away it goes.

You really should read the slideshare in Indian context and before that read the book "Lightning Bolts" already avaialable in Google. LB describes the extensive US efforts and some international work. Gives all sorts of parameters and rules of thumb.

My thesis is right from day one Agni was to deliver a MARV/BGRV and all those TDS were building blocks.

RM the writer quoted by Philip at top of th thread, had asked why are Indian missiles so lacking in performance while similar vehicles have better range? Physics is not SDRE specific!

The answer is Indian vehicles payloads are different and hence apparent range in ballistic mode.

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 23 Jan 2014 19:54

Thanks Dhananjay for the links.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jan 2014 22:26

Compared to the Perishing missile of the US in terms of technology, Agni-IV has many cutting-edge technologies, which can meet global standards.

I meant to ask this the day of Agni-IV test itself, why is this comparison of Agni-IV to Pershing doled out regularly. If I remember correctly, it was DR VKS who first mentioned it and since then it has been a staple in every Agni-IV (f)article.

I am not even sure if it is a praise or a dig to compare it to a 70s era missile!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jan 2014 22:56

ramana wrote:Philp, Its odd that he makes such a statement. The NSA, NSAB both have signalled till they are blue in face.

There has been many data points which point to our increased readiness. Moves to make our strategic missiles Road Mobile, Canisterised missiles, Talk about Massive retaliation even in case of usage of Tactical nukes, MIRV-MARV, SLBM all point towards a ready arsenal. The move started IMHO with replacement of Liquid fueled ballistic missiles with Solid fueled ones.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jan 2014 23:05

ramana wrote:RM the writer quoted by Philip at top of th thread, had asked why are Indian missiles so lacking in performance while similar vehicles have better range? Physics is not SDRE specific!
The answer is Indian vehicles payloads are different and hence apparent range in ballistic mode.

SDREs underplay the range so as to not alarm certain power centers. as a thumb rule which one of the gurus posted in this same Dhagha couple of weeks back...

the true range of SDRE missiles are the same # quoted in miles rather than KMs

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2014 02:13

Shrinivasan wrote:
Compared to the Perishing missile of the US in terms of technology, Agni-IV has many cutting-edge technologies, which can meet global standards.
I meant to ask this the day of Agni-IV test itself, why is this comparison of Agni-IV to Pershing doled out regularly. If I remember correctly, it was DR VKS who first mentioned it and since then it has been a staple in every Agni-IV (f)article.

I am not even sure if it is a praise or a dig to compare it to a 70s era missile!!!

Pershing II had a certain role and impact in European theater during the Cold War.

When the comparison is made it is to that role and not just the vehicle.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Jan 2014 03:41

First Strike!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Jan 2014 07:54

Watch from 3.20min

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jan 2014 22:23

Acharya wrote:First Strike!

The missile have couple of apparent commonalities
1) 2 Stage
3) Solid Propulsion
4) Nuclear Payload..

but there are some subtle simiarities
1) Quick reaction / speed
2) First Strike (thanks Acharya)
3) Accuracy (30m CEP)
4) Guidance
5) RV - Though I am not exactly clear about the details...

Some major difference
1) Length, weight
2) Range (A-IV is 4K KM, P-II was 1700KM, P-I was only 740KM)
3) Launcher (Pershing had both wheeled and tracked launchers)

Feel free to add more items

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2014 01:07

Excerpt says it all.

DRDO to test fire Astra BVR missile in coming weeks
Gautam Datt | Mail Today | New Delhi, January 24, 2014 |

Astra, meant for the IAF's combat jets, will be test fired within a month, officials said. The missile has already been fitted on Sukhoi-30 MKIs at selected IAF bases and trial runs were going on. The Astra will soon be fired from DRDO's test facility Chandipur-on-sea.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/drdo ... 39421.html

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 25 Jan 2014 06:04

^^^ but the kind reporter has to make his obligatory reference to test failure, that too ALL tests,no mention of a virtual redesign, successive tests, or how challenging developing a BVRAAM is. Anyway, All the best DRDO...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jan 2014 10:10

Lets face whether we like or not, there is a lobby for imports in this country and very powerful, the put self over country.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 27 Jan 2014 23:18

RCI Aiming to Fully Indigenise Missiles, Cut Import Bills

John · Post by **John** » 28 Jan 2014 00:12

Aditya_V wrote:Lets face whether we like or not, there is a lobby for imports in this country and very powerful, the put self over country.

The same references have made for P-8I, Barak/Barak-8, Talwar, Gorshkov etc this has nothing to do with import lobby rather journalism as a whole and how it works.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2014 02:28

Think of the AIV in perespective while reading about Chinese HGV/WU-14.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 657278.xml

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 28 Jan 2014 11:49

User Trial of Agni-I in February
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 024134.ece

Indian Army is preparing to conduct a fresh user trial of Agni-I missile from a defence base off the Odisha coast. The personnel of Strategic Forces Command (SFC) will carry out the test early next month.

Agni-I is the first missile in the country’s most ambitious Agni series. The nuke-capable missile can destroy targets nearly 700 km away.

Sources at the integrated test range (ITR) in Chandipur here said preparation for the test has already begun at Wheeler Island launching complex off the Dhamara coast. Missile equipment, motor and all other accessories have arrived and work is on to keep the launcher ready and integrate the weapon.

“There were considerable improvements in its re-entry technology and manoeuvrability since Agni’s first trial. This test will reconfirm the technical parameters set for the user (Army),” said a defence scientist associated with the programme.

As the missile has already been inducted in the Indian Army, this will be a limited stock production (LSP) test of Agni-I, which will be randomly selected from a bunch of missiles and used for trial. The Agni-I is an antiquated short-range and surface based ballistic missile in the Agni series.

Compared to its longer-range cousins, its height is just 15 metres and it is powered by both solid and liquid propellants, which impart it a speed of 2.5 km per second.

This missile was first test-fired on January 25, 2002 and since then several trials have been conducted.

It is designed to bridge the gap between indigenously built short-range Prithvi, already deployed in the Army, and medium range Agni-II that has a range of more than 2,000 km, sources said.

According to defence sources, Agni-I can be blasted off from both road and rail mobile launchers.

The missile weighs around 12 tonnes and can carry both conventional and nuclear payload of about 1000 kg. Weighing less but having the same thrust, the missile has added acceleration.

The DRDO had launched the Agni project in 1983 as part of the country’s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme and the first test flight of the Agni series was conducted on May 22, 1989 when the 2000-km range Agni-II was used for the test.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Jan 2014 12:58

The above articile raises a couple of questions.

1) Claims Agni-I is antiquated- why? Its critical with respect to deterence towards Pakistan

2) Agni I uses Liquid and ssolid fuel- is this true? How does a single stagee missile do that?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jan 2014 14:10

^ Antiquated or not, there is considerable improvement to the vehicle as it seems to be retro-fitted with MaRV.

Aditya_V, the MaRV uses liquid engine. Solid engines will not do.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 28 Jan 2014 14:11

I think the author is confusing the Agni-1 with the Agni-TD (which some people have at times confusingly referred to as Agni-1). Perhaps some sloppy Wikipedia research is in evidence.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2014 23:24

Sridhar at first reading it looks like confusion between the AI and A-TDS.
However the language of improvements, LSP etc could mean a retrofit of an improved payload maybe wih the HAE installed.

-----

For all. One way to read DDM type reports is:
- Cross out all the non-essential stuff. Eg.India & Pakistan have fought umpteen wars...
- Highlight what is already known
- What you are left with is the new information
- Try to get corroboration for the new information

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 29 Jan 2014 04:39

Certainly possible, but given that it is a user test of a missile from the production series, and not a development test, it seems unlikely. Unless of course they are calling it a test for the in-production Agni-1 while really testing a somewhat different missile. That's also a possibility.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 29 Jan 2014 06:23

ramana wrote:Sridhar at first reading it looks like confusion between the AI and A-TDS.
However the language of improvements, LSP etc could mean a retrofit of an improved payload maybe wih the HAE installed.

-----

For all. One way to read DDM type reports is:
- Cross out all the non-essential stuff. Eg.India & Pakistan have fought umpteen wars...
- Highlight what is already known
- What you are left with is the new information
- Try to get corroboration for the new information

Enhanced guidance package and abm penetration ability. Agni IV was a game changer more than the V and the technology will probably be fielded in the medium and short range missiles in our inventory.

On thing that also crossed my mind was a redesign of the internals of the warhead which could take an enhanced masala package. I was told by someone a few years back whose father was involved in the prithvi program that there are more than 10 bomb designs that were put into cold storage. Elections are around the corner and the Buddha may smile again

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 29 Jan 2014 08:57

Dont' we keep warheads and missiles separate which means they could change the RV without impacting SFC training

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 29 Jan 2014 08:59

SSridhar wrote:^ Antiquated or not, there is considerable improvement to the vehicle as it seems to be retro-fitted with MaRV.
Aditya_V, the MaRV uses liquid engine. Solid engines will not do.

DDM at its best... He figured out in his pea-brain that Agni-I is the oldest of the lot and hence labelled it Antiquated... this when a 60s era missile like Scud wrecked havoc during GWI. All powered RVs which have a HAM (High altitude motor) use liquid engine, as a solid engine CANNOT be switched on and off or throttled in real time.
Gurus: I did not know Agni-I had a MaRV, I thought the RV was just a free-fall / coasting RV. If it is indeed a MaRV, it will beat the shit out of most BMDs.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 29 Jan 2014 09:01

vasu raya wrote:Dont' we keep warheads and missiles separate which means they could change the RV without impacting SFC training

I think in this day and age of Cannisterised missile, this warhead and missiles separate ship has long sailed away. Now it is all ready to fire... what Pan-Masala is inside depends on the amount of kick we want (to give)

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 29 Jan 2014 09:16

Agni-I test explained
Let me take a stab at separating the wheat from the husk. The author is "Hemant Kumar Rout", he more the TSS kind rather then the usual Lifafa DDMs

1) Missile equipment, motor and all other accessories have arrived - If it was a "Production lot" missile why would be the motor be separate - its probably a HAM
2)There were considerable improvements in its re-entry technology and manoeuvrability - its probably a MaRV
3) This test will reconfirm the technical parameters set for the user (Army) - This is not the usual "Usual test to validate readiness" kind, something new is being validated on an Agony-I or a newer beast.
4) this will be a limited stock production (LSP) test of Agni-I - Why are they testing a LSP when this Mizzile has been operationalized umpteen years ago and tested till the cows come home. Something new is being validated. Maybe a MiRV or a MaRV or even newer guidance or even newer material.
5)Weighing less but having the same thrust, the missile has added acceleration. - This is not described in the context of comparison with Agni-II or others but while describing the missile. Makes me think that there has been some weight reduction and/or some material change giving it additional thrust and increased acceleration. Maybe this will increase it range?

I think this is a "Vastly improved missile" which could as well be a new missile. Probably a pre-cursor to a cannisterised launch.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2014 22:06

Shrinivasan,
The older AI had a ballistic payload. The F/S is same as the AII. So its accelerations are higher for the earlier payload. Now they have tailored payload for the AI and are trying it out on the LSP. LSP means some vehicles have been retoriftted. Its not a Full scale development test.

BTW this brings back Prithvi capability to the AI.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 Jan 2014 07:49

ramana wrote:.. The F/S is same as the AII. So its accelerations are higher for the earlier payload. Now they have tailored payload for the AI and are trying it out on the LSP. LSP means some vehicles have been retoriftted. Its not a Full scale development test.

Some weeks back we were talking about Agni series should be used to proving newer technologies like what was being done on the Prithvi. I think this is the start of the process, I would think that they would start using these "Agni User Trials" to try out new stuff... All the best DRDO...

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 30 Jan 2014 11:20

Agni-5 missile to be ready in two years
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140129/main7.htm

Defence Research and Development Organisation will test the “containerised” version of Agni-5 intercontinental ballistic missile later this year, with user trials by the armed forces scheduled for the end of the next year.

DRDO’s Director General, Missiles and Strategic Systems, Dr VG Sekaran told The Tribune during his visit here that three more developmental phase trials of the Agni-5 are required to validate the design configuration and new technologies, before user trials commence by the end of 2015. User trials, he said, are as good as handing over the missile system for induction, implying that Agni-5, India’s longest range nuclear armed missile that has hit targets 5,000 kms away, could be operational in about two years’ time.

Agni-5 would be road or rail mobile and will be stored in and launched from a hermetically sealed canister made of special steel that preserves the missile for several years.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 Jan 2014 12:06

dinesha wrote:Agni-5 missile to be ready in two years
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140129/main7.htm
Defence Research and Development Organisation will test the “containerised” version of Agni-5 intercontinental ballistic missile later this year, with user trials by the armed forces scheduled for the end of the next year.

Excellent development... Summarising the news, we have
1) DRDO very confident of canisterization, Did they test a cinnisterised missile like projectile rated at 50Ton as planned?
2) should have already met all parameters except cannisterization which they are planning test in 2014.
3) statement that User trials are acceptance implies SFC is onboard with the missile.
4) canisterized missile in road and rain mobile launcher implies an assured second strike weapon. A

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 30 Jan 2014 19:44

dinesha wrote:User Trial of Agni-I in February
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 024134.ece
Indian Army is preparing to conduct a fresh user trial of Agni-I missile from a defence base off the Odisha coast. The personnel of Strategic Forces Command (SFC) will carry out the test early next month.

.........

“There were considerable improvements in its re-entry technology and manoeuvrability since Agni’s first trial. This test will reconfirm the technical parameters set for the user (Army),” said a defence scientist associated with the programme.

As the missile has already been inducted in the Indian Army, this will be a limited stock production (LSP) test of Agni-I, which will be randomly selected from a bunch of missiles and used for trial. The Agni-I is an antiquated short-range and surface based ballistic missile in the Agni series.
...........

Wow, I must say that considering the delay in delivering the news by MSM, I think I should endorse the claim of social media like BRF being much ahead of the curve!!

Lasts few Agni-I tests were of new variants(with increased maneuverability). And it was pointed out here, nevertheless.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 30 Jan 2014 20:08

sattili wrote:^^^^^
There is some mysticism about AIV (at least for me). I have a feeling that there's more to this pencil thin boomer than what's been advertised. My hunch is that they might be proofing some techs for MARV or even MIRV for AV. Any gyan from gurus on such possibility?

I presume your apprehension could be right. Otherwise do tell me, why would A-IV compared to A-III and A-V reach an overwhelming altitude of more than 800km to cover a range of less than 4000 km?

Does MaRV means Brahmos like ramjet/scramjet warheads for Agni similar to the Topol-M or its new variants rumoured to have such tech?