Cope India 2005 - Kalaikunda AFS - Part I

Ved · Post by **Ved** » 10 Nov 2005 08:59

RajeevT wrote:Singapore seeks airbase on hire

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1051110/a ... 459186.asp

New Delhi, Nov. 9: The Kalaikunda air force station is for hire. Singapore’s air force has asked for use of its facilities and is negotiating a price with the Indian government.
Will the Communists let it happen?

That that is what you call giving a spin! If you call a friend over for a drink, does that make your house a hotel?! There are a lot of folks in line for visiting India - Malaysia, France, etc. Obviously, they have to be put up somewhere.

Ved · Post by **Ved** » 10 Nov 2005 09:06

maz wrote:Dileep,
Hate to tell you this but IAF shows USAF all they need to know. Don't you think that during these excanges, the USAF get detailed briefings, etc?

The reason we don't have pics of IAF giving 'gyaan' to USAF is that the USAF is so much more technologically advanced than IAF. They don't need gyan from IAF.

Wrong, friend. Do you know we have an IAF instructor at a US Flying Trg School, for the last many years? There's plenty of 'gyan' that we have, but it makes sense to let the other guys do the talking! US technology is great, can't beat that, and its something our funding cant match. But US human capability is average to average (-), by our standards, and its proven everyday.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Nov 2005 09:13

Kartik wrote:I'll tell you one thing, Prateek. I live in the US right now and originally am from Baroda. almost everywhere I'v been in India, the dust and dirt is prevalent.

Going abroad is a learning experience for all of us. In the UK it is NORMAL to put your feet up on a couch with your shoes on. They are not "dirty" because the amount of dust and particulate matter in the atmosphere is lower, and less of it settles and your shoes pick up less. You also brush off some of it on carpets that are needed for warmth - largely unnecessary in India. The continuous rain and the grass cover keeps dust down, and cold, dry air and lack of smoky cooking fires can result in a really clear ambient atmosphere.

India is a dusty country. If you search enough on BR you will find articles that tell you how hazy the atmosphere is in India and how that is a problem for aircraft - unlike many countries of the West where you get crystal clear visibility for miles around on some days.

There is far less vegetation growing around in India and the weather gets a lot hotter, and there is as much wind as any other place, so there is a lot of dust. Windows are kept open in homes (they don't have to be sealed as is necessary in cold climates) and the insides of homes get dusty too. How many homes do you see in the US where "Jhaadu-pota" is done every day as is done in India? That is not necessary in many countries. Who is "dirty" and who is "clean" is often more semantics and cultural differences.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Nov 2005 09:20

Ved, No need for elaboration. Let the comments go on.

Samir · Post by **Samir** » 10 Nov 2005 09:33

Ved,

Pardon me while I continue to feel depressed. My little remark was more ironic than literal. But the IAF's access policy to bases and flying areas is skewed and I will not discuss it on this forum.

Cheers,
Samir

hrishi · Post by **hrishi** » 10 Nov 2005 09:42

On closer inspection i think i saw Michelin Tyres on Garrett faust's F16, what brand do the Russian Sukhois and Migs use, as it happens am a F1 fan too so u c the fascination with tyres............any chance Bridgestone??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Nov 2005 10:30

Singapore doesnt want a periodic dinner invite by the grace of the host. they want to station a permanent training detachment in india just like they do in nellis and the germans do in nellis. pilots and technicians would rotate as needed. being in india saves them a lot of cost and complexity of flying all the way via aleutians to nevada.

So a formal agreement will be necessary and will envisage them flying to gunnery ranges near tezpur and pokhran also I guess. the agreement would bar them from certain areas and no imint / ecm pods permitted probably to pass data onto unkil bahadur. they can try that at nellis.

I dont have a problem with any of it. IAF should also secure a reciprocal agreement to fly into singapore for training & familiarization purposes, with long loops into the south china sea ofcourse.

I think next stop for IAF could be redflag ?

the fees paid can be used to build better housing for IAF officers and their families at various bases.

George J · Post by **George J** » 10 Nov 2005 11:31

I think that IAF has Dunlop tires (Sahaganj, WB ). So they are running on 100% pure commie wheelz. They have a de facto monopoly over Aero Tires...unless MRF actually came through with its aero product line.

Prateek · Post by **Prateek** » 10 Nov 2005 11:41

US knows PR pretty well...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 286533.cms
Sourav gets a taste of Yankee fuss

Rajit Ojha · Post by **Rajit Ojha** » 10 Nov 2005 12:39

Samir wrote:

Pardon me while I continue to feel depressed. My little remark was more ironic than literal. But the IAF's access policy to bases and flying areas is skewed and I will not discuss it on this forum.

Hey...no need to feel defensive, PR of the Indian Military establishment continues to suck bigtime. indianairforce.nic.in is still proudly showing Cope India 04 with a NEW flag against it. What's frustrating is the lack of consistency...the NatGeo site is tom-tomming Mission Udaan and there is nothing on the official air force site about it

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 10 Nov 2005 13:08

Maintainers keeping F-16s soaring over India

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Nov 2005 13:38

KALAIKUNDA AIR STATION, India -- Crew chief Staff Sgt. Garrett Faust removes the intake cover from his the F-16 Fighting Falcon here. The Falcons are flying dissimilar air combat sorties against Indian MiGs -- like in the background -- and other aircraft during exercise Cope India 06, which ends Nov. 19. The sergeant is from the 35th Aircraft Maintenance Squadron at Misawa Air Base, Japan. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. Martin Jackson)

Shoudnt it be Cope India 05

Samir · Post by **Samir** » 10 Nov 2005 16:45

Its Cope India 06 because the USAF is so advanced, that by the time the IAF is done interacting with them, they will have been propelled into the next year.

Or perhaps its like a cricket season: Cope India 2005-2006?

On a more serious note, I'm looking forward to the mixed formation photos that the USAF will soon release.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Nov 2005 17:17

it will be sometime before the pics are out

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 10 Nov 2005 19:48

John_Doe wrote:
Indrajit wrote:KALAIKUNDA AIR STATION, India (AFPN)The Falcons are flying dissimilar air combat sorties against Indian MiGs -- like in the background
I don't see no MiGs - only Vajras. Is the USAF now calling Mirage as MiG? Maybe Bill O'Reilly and his ilke will do that, but I never thought the USAF official website would.

Ahhh details....

There are MiGs if u see the earlier pics,Star Anondo will give u a better picture with Bisons,Fulcrums et al.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 10 Nov 2005 20:34

Whats the pod like thing hanging on to the air intake in this F16 picture:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/051109-F-0000S-006.jpg

Added later:
Think its the AN/ASQ-213 HTS (HARM Targeting System) used for SEAD role.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_photos_album03-photoahq.html

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 10 Nov 2005 21:14

KKD (Kalaikunda) for hire (Singapore wants to come in)

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1051110/a ... 459186.asp

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 10 Nov 2005 21:59

USAF officer cadre starts from 2nd Lieutenant, and most air forces have only Cadre Officers flying fighter jets. Are Junior officers like this Staff Sgt. allowed to fly jets in US, and how senior is this position if someone will have an idea ? Is this prevalent in other Air forces too ?

Indrajit wrote:Some more pics..

KALAIKUNDA AIR STATION, India (AFPN) -- Crew chief Staff Sgt. Garrett Faust

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Nov 2005 23:04

what is the range of those HARMs? both the pod and the missile that gets the feeds.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 10 Nov 2005 23:37

image

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 10 Nov 2005 23:51

SaiK wrote:what is the range of those HARMs? both the pod and the missile that gets the feeds.

Here you go:
AGM-88 HARM

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Nov 2005 00:46

The sheet metal work on US aircraft has always been superb. USAF sheet metal work is more stringent than civil aviation. Whether it makes a difference in operations is questionable, but it is a testament to quality control and paying the hundereds of millions of dollars for an aircraft.

In the pic, that A Sharma posted, of the airmen standing around the US E-3 Sentry, the aircraft is a Boeing 707, which probably came off the line in the early 1980s and is at least 20 years old. The E-3 has had many modifications done to it and its sheet metal work stands out beautifully.

gauravs · Post by **gauravs** » 11 Nov 2005 00:50

cbelwal wrote:USAF officer cadre starts from 2nd Lieutenant, and most air forces have only Cadre Officers flying fighter jets. Are Junior officers like this Staff Sgt. allowed to fly jets in US, and how senior is this position if someone will have an idea ? Is this prevalent in other Air forces too ?

Indrajit wrote:Some more pics..

KALAIKUNDA AIR STATION, India (AFPN) -- Crew chief Staff Sgt. Garrett Faust

No, the name corresponds to the the person maintaining the aircraft and not the pilot.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 11 Nov 2005 01:02

OK. guys.. I have edited out all discussions on colors - No more discussions on colors in this thread - all posts will be deleted herewith.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 11 Nov 2005 01:19

No, the name corresponds to the the person maintaining the aircraft and not the pilot

AFAIK the concept in USAf is that the maintenance guy owns the AC and the pilot merely flies it. The maintainer takes pride and ownership in the AC, and the pilot acknowledges it, being considerate that his life is in the hands of the maintainer.

It is not uncommon the sgt yelling at the pilot for "messing up my baby".

I wonder how it works with IAF. any ideas?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Nov 2005 01:24

MN Kumar wrote:
SaiK wrote:what is the range of those HARMs? both the pod and the missile that gets the feeds.
Here you go:
AGM-88 HARM

only 50Kms ? mmm..

q: in SEAD, does it also means A to A defences.. example, anti AWACS part of SEAD missions? Would MKI qualify for that role,.. What IAF might be looking for would be defend against P3Cs, and other air defence targets. Interestingly, how would a F18 e/f mrcs perform against MKI should be studied in detail. Will the current exercise give some info on those angle?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Nov 2005 01:46

Not knowing the level of communications capabilities to expect at this Indian Air Force base, the self-sustained team brought it all.

“It is always challenging to set up our equipment in foreign and unfamiliar locations,” said team superintendent Master Sgt. Robert Tanner Jr. “However, we have established NIPR (non-secure internet protocol router) and SIPR (secure internet protocol router) networks, telephone, satellite and land mobile radio connectivity.

“In just two days we have established communications for basically a mini base,”

n all, the Misawa team has gone from having zero communications to having 40 connections each for internet, classified, radios and phones. In establishing these links they have kept the Airmen deployed for Cope India 06 connected.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123012826

=================
Just three days into the exercise, the F-16s have flown 52 missions with no sortie cancellations due to maintenance.

Captain Clark said in the Indian Air Force, mostly officers perform the heavy aircraft maintenance.

“They seem quite amazed that we have all enlisted troops taking care of the jets,” he said.

“The pace has been unreal. The first day was just go, go, go,” said Senior Airman Troy Herberholzt, an F-16 crew chief. “The heat here is a definite challenge, and we are out in the sun all day with jets coming and going nonstop.”
http://www.af.mil/mediacenter/transcrip ... =123012854

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 11 Nov 2005 02:40

Indian left out of step over US exercises

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Nov 2005 03:00

Of note, no protests occurred during military exercises with Russia, and the left has always supported New Delhi's moves to build relations with Beijing.

B.C.s

davidn · Post by **davidn** » 11 Nov 2005 03:59

officers do the maintenance in the IAF? Surely not...there would be no enlisted at all except as secretaries!

Ved · Post by **Ved** » 11 Nov 2005 08:33

ramana wrote:Ved, No need for elaboration. Let the comments go on.

No problem. Only adding my 2a bit to some issues!

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 11 Nov 2005 08:59

This is quite a news!

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123012868

American, Indian Airmen ‘mix it up’

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by Capt. John Redfield
Cope India Public Affairs

11/10/2005 - KALAIKUNDA AIR STATION, India (AFPN) -- For the first time, U.S. pilots faced the Indian Air Force’s most advanced, and newest, fighter -- the Su-30 MKI -- during an exercise Cope India 06 mission here.
F-16 Fighting Falcon pilots Capt. Martin “Gabby” Mentch and 1st Lt. Robert “Pipes” Stimpson were the first to mix it up with the Su-30s Nov. 9.

The Airmen, deployed here with the 13th Fighter Squadron from Misawa Air Base, Japan, flew against the new jets, which have a thrust-vector capability and updated avionics.

The MKI “is an amazing jet that has a lot of maneuverability,” an essential trait when fighters fly within visual range of their enemy during combat missions, Captain Mentch said.

The American fighters are also squaring off against an older version of the Su-30 Flanker during the exercise, which runs through Nov. 19. The Indians are also flying the MiG-21 Fishbed, MiG-27 Flogger, MiG-29 Fulcrum and Mirage 2000 against U.S. Airmen participating in the exercise.

With all these different types of aircraft, the training the pilots are getting here is invaluable, said Lt. Col. Hugh “Hef” Hanlon, the Misawa squadron commander.

“Flying against dissimilar aircraft gives us a different level of training than if we were back home just flying against ourselves,” he said.

Colonel Hanlon also said flying against the Indian aircraft is a thrill.

“In all my 18 years in the Air Force, I’ve dreamed of going up against these aircraft,” he said.

In addition to the initial MKI-F-16 encounter, the exercise has another piece of history to it.

Americans are learning from their Indian counterparts that this is the first time U.S. Airmen have operated from here since World War II. Back then, Army Air Forces pilots flew supply missions from here. Many of those missions were to China, over “the hump” of the Himalaya Mountains.

About 250 U.S. Airmen from throughout the Pacific region are participating in the exercise, which Colonel Hanlon said is “a once in a lifetime opportunity.”

"We’re proud to represent the Air Force and the United States of America,” he said.

Looks like they've got the kiss of RAMBHA.

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 11 Nov 2005 09:06

SaiK wrote:q: in SEAD, does it also means A to A defences.. example, anti AWACS part of SEAD missions? Would MKI qualify for that role,.. What IAF might be looking for would be defend against P3Cs, and other air defence targets. Interestingly, how would a F18 e/f mrcs perform against MKI should be studied in detail. Will the current exercise give some info on those angle?

SaiK - that would come under "Air Sweep" or Air Superiority roles, which I guess the MKI is very well capable of doing, except that in an Anti-AWACs scenario a bunch of MKIs would be needed along with special tactics that will require prior training. Maybe the IAF already trains for it, or will once they figure out how the best AWACS operator in the world uses them...

SEAD squadrons focus more on A2G, with an emphasis of flying low to target and taking out air defense systems on the ground. Of course, the US uses Tomahawks for SEAD too....

Ujjal · Post by **Ujjal** » 11 Nov 2005 09:07

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Nov 2005 09:10

Ved,

Do the americans bring jp-5/8 along with them or do we supply that to them.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 11 Nov 2005 09:48

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 11 Nov 2005 10:29

Ved wrote:
maz wrote:Dileep,
Hate to tell you this but IAF shows USAF all they need to know. Don't you think that during these excanges, the USAF get detailed briefings, etc?

The reason we don't have pics of IAF giving 'gyaan' to USAF is that the USAF is so much more technologically advanced than IAF. They don't need gyan from IAF.
Wrong, friend. Do you know we have an IAF instructor at a US Flying Trg School, for the last many years? There's plenty of 'gyan' that we have, but it makes sense to let the other guys do the talking! US technology is great, can't beat that, and its something our funding cant match. But US human capability is average to average (-), by our standards, and its proven everyday.

Ved,

How would you rate ourselves then- average or above? Asking as there are many contradictory articles on how the IAF "slots" its airmen by capability.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 11 Nov 2005 10:31

cbelwal wrote:USAF officer cadre starts from 2nd Lieutenant, and most air forces have only Cadre Officers flying fighter jets. Are Junior officers like this Staff Sgt. allowed to fly jets in US, and how senior is this position if someone will have an idea ? Is this prevalent in other Air forces too ?

Indrajit wrote:Some more pics..

KALAIKUNDA AIR STATION, India (AFPN) -- Crew chief Staff Sgt. Garrett Faust

He's the maint chief assigned to the a/c.

George J · Post by **George J** » 11 Nov 2005 10:33

Hmmmm so finally the MKI was used. Only in WVR as seem to be implied above (please say so and nothing else). I wonder which MKI they squared off with, SB023+EL/M-8222 as in Sindex? Its still a first batch a/c...so not really our crown jewels (or so I console myself).

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 11 Nov 2005 10:41

Gj,
They need targets to get records for the NCTR on the MKI.