Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[member_23694]

Many incorrect price figures have been seen in press (including French press), but recently, the actual fly away official cost was released on the French Senate site4. These prices include VAT. For export, the fly away cost is 57.5M euros ($83M CAD) for the C variant and 61.9 Meuros for the B variant (twin-seater).

The Cost of Flight Per Hour (CFPH) was $19,000 CAD during war operations in Mali and should be lower during peace time5.

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2014/03/ ... er-part-1/ (Canadian perspective - summary of Rafales pluses)

Aren't we paying higher than this figure?

adding link for part 2 also, which i found more interesting with all spectra details etc, Irrespective of any suggestions about bias etc about the content
http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2014/03/ ... er-part-2/

For me i have always been a Rafale fan and will not change on that

[member_20292]

As said before, IAF's tech requirments can be burned to light a firepit to roast some goats since now they are bunch of useless documents. A Mig-35 with a Israeli radar, Virgilius EW suite and OLS can easily be just as good as the Rafale, sure not the same amount of range but good enough to handle anything China or Pak have to throw at us. Heck even the F-35 would be cheaper for 20 billion, we can easily get 200 F-35 with local assembly and enough TOT to make airframe, some avionics, perhaps engine , heck we can even be the local assembly point for all Asian/ Middle East F-35s in the future, which will automatically be over 300 fighters. I think with a large order like 200 we can squeeze uncle to have an initial minimum 60% TOT clause of the MRCA RFP.

This is exactly where we get things wrong - what is wrong with the Zhuk-AE (or even Zhuk-ME sets of the Ks) that we need to replace it with something from Israel? OLS-K and OLS-UEM combo on the 35s is one of the best A-A and A-G IRST that one can get their hands on.

So why is there any need of replacing these sensors?

In our context, MiG-35 (or even SH) is one of the best cost-effective aircraft available in the medium weight class, no doubt.

And if we need to really replace something then it will be ECM/ESM suites, maybe a desi MC, and even maybe some RCs (to allow integration of some western missiles - though personally, I don't see any earth-shattering need of doing so), the flight-control avionics maybe etc etc. After all, if the change-itch is so much to resist, why aren't we asking Snecma to implement the precise same CW and other TWS modes required for RVV-AE/R-73 type AAMs on RBE-2s?

Plus except for some more screwdriver-giri what is this offset we are getting from this deal, I ask? Can any enlightened soul pls educate me/us on this - my high-level current view is:
1) On structures, if we can build so composite-rich structure like LCA, what earth shattering tech are we going to get?
2) M88-2 uses 1st Gen SCB (AM1 and AM2) - we know how to cast a DS blade and are in the verge of some-gen SCB. So again what do we gain in the turbofan front?
3) Radar will be fully imported - but even there our desi X-band AESA should be online within an year or two for LCA. So again what there?
4) Yes avionics will a gen apart, no doubt

So is the point 4 big enough differentiator for such a huge unit price differential/markup (ok, we don't know the price yet - but we can guess enough). Or is it, that since everybody has said that these platforms (EF and Rafale) will be pricey, we should just roll-over and agree to whatever price that gets quoted by the OEMs.


But no MiG-35 (or for that matter SH) will not even be considered (and excuse will be, it failed yaar - say, in lifting 6T of External Stores in Siachen - it could only lift 5.5T - or the turn-around time between sorties were too long, it exceeded 25.5m than what EF or Rafale took ityadi ityadi).

Because of the lack of strategic thinking all around - actually it's called "playing-it-safe" - as nobody will do the cost-vs-effectiveness in our context and take a "strategic" decision.

MoD had basically thrown the ball on the other side of the fence (to IAF) to judge the bestest medium-weight class fighter available there-in
AND
IAF caught it, and did a very thorough and professional evaluation and down-selected the two made available for selection. Cost and life-cycle-cost etc is not something they were authorised to speak about (and no, they don't have any capability to judge that anyway). And the ball has been thrown on other side of the fence again
AND
MoD has caught it and doing a very thorough price evaluation of these selected two and further down-selection of one Rafale - and immediately got into another very thorough contract and offset negotiation exercise.

But who is going to do a cost vs capability vs our-requirement matching and do the final evaluation on which platform is best for us, given the money that we're willing to pay - hain jee?

Nobody is the answer.
Normally a defence minister or atleast an empowered-panel led by DM are supposed to be taking such calls - but then that leaves out a chance of corruption-allegations and various such muck throwing (by various RNIs, AAP and other assorted such jholawallah clowns), and oppose-for-the-sake-of-opposing the Opposition. A bit too much for snow-white-mundu-lover saint, I'd say.

So as long as there are folks available to be blamed (ie. IAF, if platform effectiveness is found to be wanting in later years and MOD folks if price or contract or offset non-adherence etc) - hey the only thing left to be done in such cases, is to appear worried for a few weeks, appoint a couple of chai-biskoot committees, blacklist the OEM and be done with it.

Mundu remains snow-white, no ammunition for the opposition (or a political CAG), even the foreign office folks are happy of having a demonstrable-action of rewarding a "friend" for standing-by with us during N-bum tests - all happy, except may be the poor souls whose tax-payment is the source of the funds to underwrite a foreign-country's defence R&D related largesse.

And betw, "leadership" you say, what exactly is that, anyway?

Plus nothing much will change, with any regime-change or no-change etc that some of us are so fondly hoping for - let's wait and watch!!


Sorry for the long rant - time to go hide in the Saga thread ... [/quote]

nice data.

The real answer is, that we want another plane for tossing nuclear bombs, apart from the sukhoi 30.

Rafale being optimized for DPSA , fits the bill very well.

Tossing nuclear bombs capability is important, because unlike in the nuclear missiles, you can ask the pilot to NOT drop the bomb if so required.

[Philip]

Maitya,The one year timeframe was because in an election year,there is usually a flurry of decision-making to serve vested interests.A close scrutin is required in such cases.If we review every decision made during a regime's tenure,unless it is swift and objective,and based upon concrete info,with those reviewing it experts from the forces and scientists and and not dominated by babus,it will run the course of all "inquiries" achieving very little.

But of course,a general/detailed review of the health of all major projects is mandatory,from whichever nation is involved ,if in a JV such as the FGFA,,where the increased cost of development has to be understood and justified.If red lights have started blinking in some projects,which will be quite plentiful,the reason for such delays,cost overruns,etc. has to be determined and deadlines need to be drawn in the sand for the DPSUs to perform or perish,both for the heads who must be accountable for performance and the DPSU dinosaurs,who must then compete with the pvt. sector.

[Philip]

The SU-34 would be a far better N-delivery bomber than the Rafale.It has longer legs,greater endurance ,plus extra comfort facilities for the crew,of great help during long missions.If want a true strategic bomber,then leasing a small sqd. of Backfires (after upgrades) or Blackjacks if available would be ideal ,as they could cover any part of China.As the USN's CNO Adm.Greenert has said,in a review about the JSF,"why buy a luxury vehicle when a bomb truck will do?".This is in light of the development of LR PGMS,which can be delivered even from legacy aircraft which do not need to penetrate heavily defended targets.

As a poster has said above,th best cost-effective solution to large numbers of med. sized multi-role strike aircraft with AESA radars is the MIG-35/29 series.Our IN 29K's were bought at just $32M apiece.

[Singha]

Addl mig35 looks like vfm at this point.
not chi chi f-15k slam eagle level but pretty effective vs the dynamic duo of local miscreants.
they can free more sukhois for self escorted strikes north of everest lhotse gangotri k2 line.

with zhuk and later lrde aesa radar ported from tejas2 and using astra1, astra2 and the successor to r77 being built for pakfa..they will make life very tough in a2a fights with their superb airframe.
get the dual irst from pakfa also

[Klaus]

Both Sukhoi Su-34 & Su-35 seem to be derived from the Su-27 Flanker design. Perhaps both of these will be on the table along with the Mig-35 to make up the numbers, approaching 140-160. The potential advantage could be great deal of commonality with the 'Super Sukhois', currently being upgraded.

Wonder how the relations with Dassault will proceed given that the Rafale-M is still a very attractive option for a/c carriers from INS Vishal onward. A few of these could be based off the SBTF too.

Edit- Added later: IIRC the only issue with Mig-35 during the IAF technical evaluations was restarting of flight engines during the high altitude test at Leh, AFAIK no other objections have been raised by either IAF or MoD about this aircraft.

[Singha]

Su35BM while being very good will be costly. the SU34 has had a limited production run and is not agile enough to be self-escorting albeit more optimized to the DPSA role.
so some customized variant of the Mig35 with the spinal fuel dump like our upg Mig29 looks like best bet for now. there is no other realistic option on table.

http://airvoila.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... ig35-3.jpg

we use the Mig35, M2k, Mig29upg and Tejas for interceptor role and air cover over the frontal aviation zone
Jaguars, Tejas and Mig27 for tactical strike
and unleash the 300 sukhois north of the K2-gangotri-everest-kanchenjunga-jelepLa axis.

[NRao]

There was a story that the Iaf did not want s Russian plane for the mmrca. In fact, as the story goes, they were told not to participate.

[Cain Marko]

There was a story that the Iaf did not want s Russian plane for the mmrca. In fact, as the story goes, they were told not to participate.

For all practical purposes, this is the only reason why the fulcrum might not work. it has few flaws otherwise, excellent range, payload, flight characteristics, optics, ew and radar. Still, at this stage in the game, a couple of squads might be worth it. A mig 29m would integrate seamlessly since it is basically a K without the naval gear, and electronics/weapons wise no different from an SMT.. Cost @ 3 billion

Or

Reduce the rafale order to a direct buy of 40-60 birds via France delivered in 5 years with all the doodads and weapons as an uber/elite force that can buff up IAF and deal with any paf plaaf threat comfortably. Pricey option @ 9-10 billion

El cheapo option is to buy ex Hungarian and Russian fulcrums and.convert them to SMT std. Lucky to find two sqds and will cost about 1.5 billion, my guess.

Wildcard option is order 60.more tejas mk1, foc std in double quick time. Cheap and very effective. Basically the perfect fit since the only birds iaf truly needs are some qra with decent range. Achilles heel here is the engine but that can't be helped for now, buy extras even if it bumps the price by 5 mill per unit

Freaking circus!

[member_20317]

The moment I heard the 30 bil for 126 fig. I went into a shell.

But this seems more workable. Get 50 made in France and bring in 50 of Migs and then put the change into the LCA lines. That way we get to milk the 30 bil for its real worth.

And why would we want to have anything other than a Sukhoi for tossing nukes. Missiles are much more safer, predictable even in case of aborts. Besides we do not have long distances/times involved, in the case of India that US/USSR had to contend with. It is true though that human involvement gives a certain feeling of control.

[vic]

As a thumb rule fly away cost + 50% is normally the standard cost of the package which makes the aircraft useful including things like simulators, ground support equipment, various attachments like pylons, fuel tanks etc, training, ToT, some limited spares, maintenance guarantee for limited time etc.

[Cain Marko]

These should be picked up asap.
http://www.armstrade.org/includes/perio ... tail.shtml

The 29Ms would cit in perfectly right now

[Mihir]

Pick up with what saar? There's no money left.

[shukla]

Dassault Close To A Contract With India's HAL $11 Billion MMRCA Contract: CEO Eric Trappier

Dassault Agrees Rafale Workshare With India

The agreement was confirmed on Thursday at Dassault’s annual financial results press conference in Paris by CEO Eric Trappier. The agreement covers the general configuration of the aircraft, the technology transfers and the detailed workshare between the two partners and their subcontractors. Also, it clarifies the mechanism for handling warranties, said Trappier.

“It’s a major step before signing the final contract,” said Trappier, noting that this landmark could come in “the next weeks or months.” The contract is estimated to be worth between $10- and $15 billion, but that has not been confirmed by Dassault.

Out of the 126 Rafales, 18 will be built in France in the Dassault Aviation facilities. The next 106 fighters will be built in India with a stepped transfer of responsibilities. The technology transfers account for up to 50 percent of the value of the contract. Dassault estimates that it would take roughly three-and-a-half years to deliver the first Indian Rafale.

[NRao]

The reported price is down. What about the ToT, is that within acceptable limits? Or have they compromised on the ToT to get the price down?

[srin]

There is another possibility - it might be just the airframe cost. This probably doesn't include the missiles and another weapons, for which they may still charge a bomb (pun not intended).

Three-and-a-half years for Indian Rafale ? I presume and hope, they mean three-and-half-years for the first India-built Rafale, and not the first Rafale in India colors.

[Will]

Well wishful thinking by Dassault if they think the deal is going to be signed anytime soon. With a new govt due at the coming elections they will want to scrutinize the deal again and will want their pound of cheese

[Sid]

There is another possibility - it might be just the airframe cost. This probably doesn't include the missiles and another weapons, for which they may still charge a bomb (pun not intended).

Three-and-a-half years for Indian Rafale ? I presume and hope, they mean three-and-half-years for the first India-built Rafale, and not the first Rafale in India colors.

That is a real possibility, which they did with Mirage upgrade as well. Contract for weapon suit was signed later on (Rs 6,600-crore for 490 MICA).

I hope they do-not drop Spectra from the initial package to show that initial unit is low.

[NRao]

The contract for ammo has always been a different bucket. The price associated with the MMRCA has never included the missiles/bombs/etc.

will want their pound of cheese

Which is what I am wondering, if this sudden drop, from $20+ billion to $11 billion, is the loss of weight from cheese? Perhaps not all of it. But if they are proposing a reduction in ToT (which, if true, is by itself a travesty), then I am inclined to believe that some of that reduction is the middlemen accepting that the kitchen is too hot and no time to reduce the heat.



On another note, note how India has come to accept it too. Public knowledge and it goes unchallenged.

[Prem]

The contract for ammo has always been a different bucket. The price associated with the MMRCA has never included the missiles/bombs/etc..will want their pound of cheeseWhich is what I am wondering, if this sudden drop, from $20+ billion to $11 billion, is the loss of weight from cheese? Perhaps not all of it. But if they are proposing a reduction in ToT (which, if true, is by itself a travesty), then I am inclined to believe that some of that reduction is the middlemen accepting that the kitchen is too hot and no time to reduce the heat.

Sign that new Sarkar will be non Conngresi and not Corrupt

[Viv S]

Which is what I am wondering, if this sudden drop, from $20+ billion to $11 billion, is the loss of weight from cheese?

From the second article

The contract is estimated to be worth between $10- and $15 billion, but that has not been confirmed by Dassault.


$11 billion is quite simply poor journalism. The flyaway cost for France is currently around $85 million per unit, or $10.7 billion for 126 aircraft. The procurement cost therefore will be far in excess of $15 billion. For France.

There's no way we can get the aircraft, spares, training, support infrastructure, production infrastructure and ToT for that price. Not unless Dassault is prepared to deliver it at a huge loss.

[Cain Marko]

Pick up with what saar? There's no money left.

It is not a huge amount iirc, about 6-700mil, great for.new airframes. Should have that kind of dough available in the new budget?

[Cain Marko]

There is another possibility - it might be just the airframe cost. This probably doesn't include the missiles and another weapons, for which they may still charge a bomb (pun not intended).

Three-and-a-half years for Indian Rafale ? I presume and hope, they mean three-and-half-years for the first India-built Rafale, and not the first Rafale in India colors.

That is a real possibility, which they did with Mirage upgrade as well. Contract for weapon suit was signed later on (Rs 6,600-crore for 490 MICA).

I hope they do-not drop Spectra from the initial package to show that initial unit is low.

The price is probably for the config that the iaf evaluated without weapons, support etc. Add it all up and 20billion plus is well within range,

[Yagnasri]

One mango man question - The initial cost of Raf is 2 times of MKI. How IAF can justify the cost aspect? Life time costs are that Cheap??? I mean the innitial double cost will take care of life time cost aspect if interests etc are all added up.

[Cain Marko]

^Add to that the insane MLU price that the rafale will invariably incur. Thing is, and I could be wrong, I don't believe it was the IAF's job to evaluate costs, their mandate was to provide the MOD mandarins the best birds based on technical evals. Also, from a strategic standpoint, they aim to diversify, which means the cheapest bird, the fulcrum is out of contention. The other cheap alternative, the Gripen would have put paid to the Tejas, and offers less capability.

Ultimately, all remaining worthy birds, shornet, typhoon, and rafale are similarly priced, marginal cost differences. F16 b60 might be slightly cheaper, but technically would be a dead end.

[Yagnasri]

I mean why diversify? HAL claims to have making entire MKI in India and can also make Mig29 in case of need. Past difficulties for spare parts can be addressed by greater clarity in contract etc. Mig spare parts etc issues also due to fall of Sovit union and crazy time of Boris Yaltsin etc. Con't we manage this spare parts risk effectively now? I mean almost 4 times cost for Raf from Mig29 versions like Mig 35. More familiar A/c with proven and trained people already in service.

[member_26622]

Somehow the real cost of importing arms is not understood. Suggest we rename import lobby as 'RAPE' lobby.

But this Rafale deal is like the next^infinity level >> GANG RAPE of India

Burn down every Defense Ministry buildings+Housing in Delhi and Hang Congress.

[Philip]

The new lower cost plus around $85M per plane is meant to get the camel's nose inside the tent ,which will later on expand into the entire beast squatting inside.Even at $85M per plane,it is approx twice that of a MIG-29/35 (IN's 29Ks @ just $32M/unit).The latest figs from Bogged_down about hopeful lower costs of the JSF is also a hope of $85M.Though that is still an uncertainty because of the large amt. of dev work yet to be done,which aircraft would an air force want theoretically? A 5th-gen JSF even at around $90M+ or a 4th-gen Rafale.

I agree with the majority of members that today,the Rafale deal is unjustifiable due to its enormous cost,where there are better cost-effective solutions that will give the IAF both quality aircraft as well as greater numbers.120 MIG-29/35s would cost around $5B,leaving another $10B to be spent judiciously on the IAF's other projects and needs.Together with the 60+ 29UGs,the IAF would then have 180 MIG-29s a formidable force,with commonality in weaponry with the Flankers and seamless induction of aircraft as far as training, and maintenance and support aspects are considered.Surely an attractive proposition.As said before,if it is the N-strike role that requires a couple of Raffy sqds.,2 sqds. of SU-34s would be perfect for the IAF,or if it is even more visionary ,but longer-ranged upgraded Backfires .

PS:At least here is where "Fartacus",aka joker Kejriwal could be of some use.Just ask him to send his attack curs to rip off the saint's dhoti,metaphorically speaking that is,as those dumbwits might go for the real thing and this latest "expose" would be truly shocking!

[NRao]

Per Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale), in 2011 fly away costs: Rafale B: $95.6 mil and Rafale C: $88.8 mil. And, BTW, the M (naval): $102 mil.

So a Rafale I, should be mighty expensive.

[Cain Marko]

I mean why diversify? HAL claims to have making entire MKI in India and can also make Mig29 in case of need. Past difficulties for spare parts can be addressed by greater clarity in contract etc.

Well, therein lies the rub. I feel the same way but it seems that making the entire MKI in India doesn't mean that HAL actually makes it from scratch. Based on previous posts, HAL builds components after core kits are provided by OEM e.g. engine core.

Mig spare parts etc issues also due to fall of Sovit union and crazy time of Boris Yaltsin etc. Con't we manage this spare parts risk effectively now? I mean almost 4 times cost for Raf from Mig29 versions like Mig 35. More familiar A/c with proven and trained people already in service.

Well, once burnt twice shy I suppose. IAF mitigates risk by diversifying - that has been the idea for a loong time now. Mostly russian, with a smattering of euro and now possibly US and desi. But the bigger the Russian component in the inventory, the more desperate the IAF will be for a Western bird. The Mirage 2000 was its original choice and was a good one as a medium tier fighter considering the MKI is the big, bad boy, and the Pakfa is on its way.

The best option imvho, and I have advocated this since 2009 or thereabouts:

Pick up whatever extra MiG-29M/SMT frames (e.g. via syria, Hungary) and M2Ks you can find (Qatar, Greece?) - No more than $ 2 billion for about 3 sqds etc.. (2014-18 time frame). All of these birds should slide in smoothly considering the existing infrastructure for the fulcrum variants and the mirage as well.

Bump up Tejas mk1 production - order at least another 60 post FOC (2016-2020 time frame). By 2020, IAF will have close to estimated MRCA numbers, and at a much faster rate, and cheaper cost. The only issue with the Tejas is the engines - buy extras and shore up on spares, even if this means an increase in price by 5 mill per unit. Again, this wouldn't hurt in terms of logistics since the supply chain is being created as it is.

Possibly even buy some Pakfa off-the-shelf. Here too, the SC is in the pipeline.

The Rafale no doubt offers some very unique capabilities, but the cost is simply too much in terms of the upfront amount, weapons & support package, TOT, and the creation of a new line of supplies, training etc. A combination of LCA, Fulcrum+Mirage, and Pakfa should do the trick. The $ss saved can be used for the tankers, more AWACs, weapons and Pakfa. All in all, a quick, cheap and effective way of getting IAF those long fangs it needs. Of course, would never really work considering how kickbacks would be reduced.

[Yagnasri]

CM sir, you seems to be spot on. Raf is simply too costly.

[shukla]

Why the Dassault Rafale will be purchased by the Indian Air Force

[Will]

Here we go again.

http://idrw.org/?p=34927#more-34927

Maybe a reason why we need a non Russian aircraft.

[Viv S]

I honestly don't know what to make of the advocacy for the MiG-35.

1. We cannot get them at short notice, unless the IAF is prepared to operate MiG-29Ks.
2. Assuming the PAK FA deal goes through the IAF will be left with an almost all-Russian fleet composition.


Question is what exactly does the MiG-35 deliver that the Tejas Mk2 doesn't? The latter is cheaper, more sophisticated and most importantly Indian.

Every Rafale ordered means at least three or four Tejas forgone. The ratio might be different with regard to the MiG-29/35 but the principle remains the same. Not to mention that the IAF will have the headache of operating an extra type post-2030 (unless they want to retire the MiG after just 10-12 years of service). On the other hand second-hand Mirage 2000s from the Middle East (or even ex-RAF EF T1s) are still a viable option for a stop gap aircraft, since they can be retired along with other elements of the IAF's existing circus after a decade or so. European MiG-29s are worth evaluating but I doubt they have sufficient airframe life remaining.

[NRao]

India bank rolled Sukhoi. Now the Russians are seeking someone for MiG.

[Philip]

Guys,I would argue for M-2000s with upgrades,but look at the colossal cost of the M-2000 upgrades.$2.5B for just 40+ in comparison to just around $1B for 60+ MIG-29ss,which the IAF found (AM Masand in Vayu) superior to the M-2000 in mano-a mano combat! This works out to 3 times the price for just one M-2000 upgrade.It would make far more sense to buy old/new MIG-20s for a song and get them upgraded to IAF std.

There is no point in buying western eqpt. just for the sake of doing so. We won the '71 war using mostly Soviet eqpt. which served us well.The problem is the after sales support of spares and maintenance.Things are far better in Russia today and pvt. industry should be roped in for MRO tasks. Even if the IAF come on bended knees for a Rafale buy,we could perhaps afford only 2 sqds. for the N-delivery task )costing at least $3B),buying more MIG-29s -80-120,which would also cost about $3.5B to $5B. For around $8.5B we would thus get 160 aircraft,both western and Russian.

[NRao]

I agree that "Things are far better in Russia today". For whom is the question.

IF the report of Sukhoi's behavior is to be believed then the situ(ation) has got worse for the IAF.

[Philip]

If it is to be believed.Certainly,if Sukhoi is not keeping to agreements,then invoke penalty clauses,whatever,that is if the deal was negotiated by our wonderful MOD properly.
I do remember that in the case of the Shtil problems with the first Talwar/s,well publicised,which led to a delay in commissioning the warship,a penalty was imposed and was adjusted (?) in the price of the second lot. The fact remains that a penalty was imposed. Now what about the CAG report on the failure of the IN's Derby AAMs on the Sea Harriers which failed to achieve promised range,etc.? What about Barak 8's delays? The AW scam,Tatra scam,etc.? Hawk delays? Scorpene delays and poor negotiations of that deal which has cost us a few billions extra?
And most of all the massive failure by our very own DPSU's to perform on almost every weapon system barring the strategic missiles,on performance,massive delays in years,huge cost overruns and inadequate infrastructural support for indigenous systems.The IN's woes recently have some of the blame to be laid at the door of poor quality of refits and maintenance by our own dockyards.

The hard fact is that almost firang and desi manufacturers have failed from time to time. To resolve these issues there must be a level playing field in dealing with such delays. Just look at the absurdity of the AW VVIP helo scam. The bank "guarantees" for almost $400M are not being returned to us despite the corruption in AW exposed and prosecuted by Italy!! Who deserves to take the rap? If not for our "Roman" empress,diplomatic relations with Italy would've been suspended by now,or Italian assets in India seized. My gut feeling is that this is in response to our prevarication about the case of the Italian marines."The mills of Indian courts....."

[Anthony Hines]

I say dump Rafales, dump the MiGs. Go for a Gov-Gov route and get the 18's. I bet they will be landing in India befor the ink dries. Look at the efficiency at which C-17s and C-130s were delivered!

[Karan M]

Yes, and with a Modi led govt, which doesnt play to script, then what..?