Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

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johneeG
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by johneeG »

X-posting Bji's post:
brihaspati wrote:The swing or accumulation of votes in favour of a candidate in Indian elections does not necessarily reflect the motivations ascribed by urban intellectuals - who conveniently decide that the same population gives super-importance to selected "civilizational issues" over "economic development" which they also favour, but then the very same population also hate "civilizational issues" which they hate, and vote for "economic development" onlee.


What I see happening, is something that is not new for India - genuine popular discontent against a regime is cleverly harnessed by a political conmen, probably with a core of genuine leadership - but with ever increasing circles of opportunists surrounding them, when they smell that popular discontent might indeed change the very regime to which they have hitherto sucked on to like leeches and served as mosahibs against these very same people.

Time and again I see this argument that "now the need of the hour is to encourage and not do anything that psyches out the new entrants - swingers - switchers of support from the older regime". Inevitably each genuine change aspirant movement ultimately fails because it allows these two level opportunist voices to gain limelight. One level justifies the induction of the opportunists by similar arguments, (the external voices) and the other one acts from within the new movement. Typically they will seek to displace the "old-guard", because the older-guard would have developed within the more struggling phase and hence less corruptible and an obstacle for the leech-class to stay on in a beneficial arrangement with the state under change of regime.

There is a recent study on social-psychopathology of the US population. By an extension, typically there is likely to be a much higher proportion of these in the political and financial industry. The most notable feature of this psychopathology is their charismatic nature.

I think BJP is headed that way. The leech class is so widely entrenched, that it will reinvent itself within the "Modification" drive. Modi himself could be the epitome of incorruptibility, but already we see the signs of avatarification phenomena - a typical sign that the leech-class has actually leeched on to the "new".

I see that the demand for BJP/Modi dropping civilizational issues as not vote-worthy, vote-damaging, highlighting and pressurizing that onlee economic "development" be stressed with complete erasure of "civilizational concerns" - is a demand of the leech class. The vacuum ideology section that sustained a Jawaharlal Nehru in the first place, and what they want is a new Nehru. Modi can serve the purpose of getting a Nehru since he can sustain the illusion among the civilizational aspiration thread within the current discontent, and thereby manage the "saffron assertion" that would otherwise cost external and internal religious interests - while the cozy financial interests that benefit onlee a small proportion of Indian populations can be maintained in exclusive networks.

Jawaharlal nehru did not become what he became - a cynical manipulator, personal responsibility shirker, with a maniacal obsession with maintaining personal image and personal power even at the cost of not being truthful to the nation, entirely out of his own character. He was shaped up in interaction with an immensely corrupting and totally-devoid-of-humanity colonial regime as well as the leech-class that had already shaped up in India in the north surviving in collaboration with and a vacuum ideology under Islamic rule.

The leech class and the Brits saw potential in him being the substitute who could be used to assure the increasingly restless anti-colonial sentiments of Indians, and contain them, while managing a smooth transfer of power bypassing these "chaotic/fundamentalist/Hindu" masses so that the financial and elite interests and networks that had developed in collaboration under the Brits could continue in a cozy beneficial relationship with the new regime.

The same method is being applied on Modi. And he is really alone. He will be eventually even more isolated - as a new coterie will form, who will do their best to eliminate and sideline anyone seen to be connected to the "older" guard. There will be many a old political battle scar that cane be used to drive the wedges further - for onlee in greater isolation of Modi from the older subnetworks that fueled the BJP, with a steady replacement of potential stubborn pieces by more "flexible" newer functionaries - being actually a facilitator for the leech class reinventing itself in state power after swinging from the Congress.
Link to post
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Its not just ali, but this whole lot of new entrants are obviously opportunists who are jumping in to make the most of the anti-Kongi and pro-NaMo wave. The thing with opportunists is that they can abandon as easily as they have come. Of course, some of these people may have been waiting till now due to lack of proper alternative or circumstance and thats the only reason for not coming out this long. But, those who actively worked against and have not publicly regretted doing so, cannot be inducted...whether its ali or akbar.

Just as there is an oath taking at the time of cabinet formation, similarly there should be a compulsory public declaration of acceptances/rejections of core political party agendas for all entrants especially 6 months before elections. It should not be considered internal matter of political parties because it is not their internal matter. Political party is a public forum and needs to be transparent about its members and their views.

So, each new entrant has to come clean on what principles of the party are accepted by him and what principles of the party are not acceptable to him and his reasons for joining or leaving a party. This will be similar to giving manifestos by a political party. One can say that this is a useless exercise, but atleast if there is a public declaration, then people have some way of holding the politicians and political parties to account. The more uncommitted an issue is, the more there are chances of compromises and negotiations by politicians and political parties behind the doors for their private/public gains. Politicians and political parties would prefer to remain non-commital so as to give them space to maneuver in whichever direction they feel is convenient. But, if they are made to commit, then people will hold them to that commitment or atleast ask them reasons for changing the stance if they change the stance.

NaMo may be a mahathma. But, he is not omnipotent, omniscient and omni-present. A good leader is good, but not enough. A good leader needs to put in mechanisms to make the system itself good. I think this approach should start from one's own domain. Since NaMo is lotus' candidate and since most of the people joining are hoping to ride on his bandwagon, he should lay down the rule within the party that every new entrant should give a public declaration of core principles of lotus that are acceptable and unacceptable to him and the reasons for joining the party and leaving the erstwhile party. Similarly, lotus should give reasons for inducting the member.

Shree Raama co-opted Ravana's bro Vibhishana and Vaali's bro Sugreeva. Sugreeva was being persecuted by Vaali and had no place to go. Raama befriended Sugreeva. Sugreeva promised to provide the army, if Vaali was taken out. Both Raama and Sugreeva make a solemn promise in front of fire. This is a very important point. This may seem like just another useless exercise. But, it has a very important use. Making a public declaration of intent whenever a new friendship/relationship is made is important, so that both sides are safe that the other side will not just junk the relationship/friendship just like that. For politicians/political parties, this becomes much more important that there is a similar exercise where the new entrants make a solemn promise and also put in their reservations about the party. Then, Vaali was killed by Raama as was promised. But, when Vaali died, Sugreeva also cried. Raama made sure that Vaali's son is made the prince-regent while making Sugreeva as the king. Raama did not want Sugreeva to remain without competition. Sugreeva became King and promptly forgot about his promise to Raama. Raama then threatened to kill Sugreeva just as He had killed Vaali. Then, Sugreeva came to His senses and started arraying the army. The punishment and reward were immediately given. When Raama befriended Sugreeva, it was a desperate attempt for both sides because both of them did not have much choice. The equations altered after Vaali was killed. Raama had to actually assert His strength/might to ensure Sugreeva's cooperation.

Vibhishana came to Raama's camp seeking refuge when Raama's army was planning to cross the sea to assault on Lanka. Naturally, there was opposition to accepting Vibhishana in Raama's camp. But, Vibhishana is accepted and he plays a crucial role in the defeat of Ravana especially in the death of Ravana's son Meghanaath/Indhrajith who was tormenting Raama's army. But, Vibhishana makes a public declaration by condemning Ravana and wholeheartedly accepting the cause of Raama to be just. Then, as soon as Vibhishana is accepted, he is coronated by Raama to ensure that there is carrot for cooperation. Vibhishana is accepted because of favourable report by Hanumaan who had seen Vibhishana's conduct in Ravana's court and Shurpanaka's intro to Raama(Shurpanaka mentions that Vibhishana is unlike other Raakshasas). Raama is in a much better position while Vibhishana's position is desperate. One more thing that goes in Vibhishana's favor is that Raama's victory is not yet assured. Army had not even crossed into Lanka. Vibhishana came in before the crossing. But, if people start joining when the victory is assured, then such people need to be thought of as opportunists. And if these opportunists were with the opponents previously, then there needs to be ample caution.

Only those who have a good track record in the past, should be taken up. Those with a bad track record should not be accepted. So, general conduct of the new inductee and an open declaration are necessary to ensure that the scope for betrayals/deceptions is reduced. Carrots and sticks need to be in place to ensure that they do the job. Raama does honor His promises to Sugreeva and Vibhishana. But, He also ensures that they work for His cause. This requires carrot and stick in appropriate time and measure. And it needs to be taken care that chances of corruption are also reduced.

One chance is given for people to redeem. But, if they don't, then the punishment follows. So, that creates respect(bhakthi) and fear(bhayam). All the promises are kept by own side and its also ensured that the other side keeps up their promises(even by threat of punishment if required).

If Raamayana tells about the successful cooption, then MB shows how the cooptions can go wrong. Shalya was inducted into Kaurava side and he helps Kauravas, but he also weakens Karna.

Pancha-thanthra tells a story called Kaka-ulikiyam(crow-owl tale) about how the crow infiltrates the owl's army and weakens it. Interestingly, Sugreeva gives an interesting analogy when Vibhishana comes for refuge. He mentions crows being taken unawares by an owl. In MB, Ashwatthama is inspired to carry out a deadly nightly attack on Paandava camp when he sees a similar incident. Pancha-thathra story seems to be inspired from Raamayana and MB mention. But, it Pancha-thanthra cleverly reverses the roles by making the crow infiltrate the owls to show how a stronger side can be infiltrated by a weaker side.

Even if the inductees who worked previously for the opponent are genuine about their change of heart, they should be co-opted very carefully. The thing with co-option of the other side is that it leads to corruption/weakening. It needs to be done in an extremely careful way and there is still ample chance for things going wrong.

If all the corrupt get inducted, how can one act against corruption? If all the terrorists or their sympathizers get inducted, how can one act against terrorism?

The thing with deceptions/betrayals is that it can become so treacherous that no one knows whom to trust. For example, in kongi or even most other kongi Bs, the things are so treacherous that no one trusts anyone and everyone is trying to pull down everyone. That sort of culture leads to the ruin of the organization in the long run. That culture comes along when there are no clear cut rules of good and bad conduct and only sycophancy is encouraged. Clear cut rules are avoided by the leadership to give them scope for maneuvering. But, that leads to ruin of the organization.

On the other hand, if there are a clear rules of good and bad conduct and there is immediate appropriate punishment(after one warning) or reward, and when these rules are implemented without nepotism or bias, then the organization prospers.

In summary,what is needed is:
public declaration of why a particular person is being accepted or rejected by political parties.
public declaration of why a particular person is joining or leaving a political party.
at the time of joining, public declaration of what is acceptable and unacceptable to him about that political party.
similarly, public declarations by political parties about their common agendas and differences at the time of alliances.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by chetak »

Hari Seldon wrote:RSS has spoken and expressed displeasure over shabir ali's induction. I expect action will follow soon enough. Quietly i hope, can do without more PR tamasha and perception damage.
Is the BJP being run by a bunch of no hopers that they cannot even coordinate at a national level dubious membership applications ??

Do they need a crisis to publicly erupt in EVERY state??
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Karan M »

the rot that set in under LKA and swaraj and co wont dissipate overnight either.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Shanmukh »

Karan M wrote:the rot that set in under LKA and swaraj and co wont dissipate overnight either.
The rot did not set in under LKA and SS, it only culminated under them. The rot began under the right honourable ABV. The BJP in 96 had a choice, they could wait to build up their party in regions where they were weak (it would take another election or two before BJP grew enough to start yielding seats in AP, Odisha, TN, Assam and WB, or they could go shopping for allies at the expense of their ideology. They chose the latter, and in doing so, poisoned their own USP to the extent that the BJP has lost credibility totally on those issues. Now we are seeing the second phase of poisoning of Hindutva agenda, so that no one else will also be able to use these issues. The best we can hope for under Modi is Nehruvian secularism, where leaders were personally pious, conservative Hindus, but the policies they followed were totally anti-Hindu.

The irony, however, is that BJP was growing as long as it held steadfastly to its communal agenda. From 11% of the vote in 89, it grew to 25% in 98, whereas the secular agenda brought it down to 18.8% from the previous high of 25%. Indeed, communalism helped, not hurt the BJP. But let us not destroy the illusion of secularism and Muslim votes with hard facts. It is better to live in la la land, get fawned on by Burkha bibis, kowtow to the Mafia, and have a good time at the expense of the very people who voted them to power.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by harbans »

Why is Sanjay Jha so emphatic that Modi will lose from both seats? Does he know something we don't know? Or mere bravado?
Remember Sanjay Jha's tweet prior Delhi that for AAP and BJP it's about ego to avoid coming at 3rd place? That it was INC that ended there, many tweeples had a lot of fun there.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Karan M »

Nageshks ji, all I will say about Modi is a tiger doesnt change its stripes, lets wait and watch.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Paul »

KLP Dubey wrote:
Jha reminds me of that Iraqi information minister dude back from the "Gelf" war (forgot his name now).
Tariq Aziz?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Karan M »

Nowadays I am getting spammed 24/7 on YT vids by INC stuff about how Modis facts are wrong. Better than playing RaGa videos at CII and might actually work. The swarm is learning, though I suspect so close to elections it may not be effective.

Also Aamir is spamming away with his doston will tell you whom to vote for shite. Spammers all!
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Singha »

Not Tariq aziz..he was a sane head in Saddam high council.

with no track record to tomtom, congis and aap have no recourse but to bleat Gujarat this, Gujarat that.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Shanmukh »

Paul wrote:
KLP Dubey wrote:
Jha reminds me of that Iraqi information minister dude back from the "Gelf" war (forgot his name now).
Tariq Aziz?
No - KLP Dubey-ji is referring to Muhammad Saeed al Sahhaf (Baghdad Bob).
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by VikramS »

Every person has their role to play...

https://twitter.com/JehangirPocha/statu ... 7745891328
Jehangir Pocha ‏@JehangirPocha 18m
Narendra Modi reveals new details about Godhra to Madhu Kishwar. Only on NewsX from 9-10 pm tonight. Its Modi's first pre-poll TV interview.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Chandragupta »

Victor wrote:
muraliravi wrote:
Keep dreaming in your cuckoo world. They will never ever vote for BJP/Modi. ABV who was considered much more moderate than Namo could never get even 1% of their vote.
Don't want to descend into a name-calling session even though I am tempted. The bolded part betrays a deep hatred and mistrust of 1 in 5 Indians which is something India cannot afford but let's leave that aside. The way I see it, a large number of Indian Muslims, specially the poor, are seeing some merit and hope in Modi's words. May not be the majority yet but a large number nevertheless and I believe they can see the common sense in his straightforward vision.

To win this battle, I'll take any votes I can get from any quarter, period. To not follow this simple compulsion goes against all Indic thought and is idiotic IMO. Don't forget that Valmiki was a robber and murderer.

I'm not surprised that ABV got no votes from them (if true) but that was a different time and the message was nowhere near as hopeful, pervading or powerful as Modi's.
I run a businessman, I deal with a lot of people who employ Muslims, some employ in hundreds, as Supervisors, Operators, Labor etc. Owners are all Modi bhakts, some even donate in lakhs to local BJP unit, many of them ex-Congressis but the slap of the downturn hits everyone. But as far as Muslims are concerned, I can give in writing, on a stamp paper, that not a single one of them will vote for Modi. Forget them, even the handful of Muslims that indirectly or directly work with me will not vote for him. It's AAP or Congress for them. They are not even skull cap wearing, beard growing faithfuls, that segment is even tougher to break in I guess.

The sooner people realize this, the better it is. It is not mistrust, it is a plain fact. At least in the UP region.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Hari Seldon »

NM in Baghpat: "Yes, I was born of an ideology. The ideology of nationalism, of India-first, of Mother India being everything for us." Nice.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Shanmukh »

Victor wrote: Dr Praveen Patil tweet is wrong, simple as that. Sabir Ali will bring at least some Muslim votes to BJP so it makes electoral sense; it is a powerful symbol to have a previously anti-BJP guy now singing the praises of BJP and it will make a big impact if he goes on TV to explain why he was mistaken previously.
Victor-ji,
As someone from (or with ties to) the NE, you do know how many Assamese Muslims vote NaMo and/or BJP, do you not? Even Assamese Muslims who stand to lose immensely from Bangladeshi infiltration hate BJP and vote Congress or AGP. When AGP ties up with BJP, the AGP's Assamese Muslim votebank jumps to Congress. You must have reflected on this. I can tell you even this time, in Barpeta where the Assamese Muslims have been at the receiving end from the Bangladeshis, the Assamese Muslims will still vote the Congress and/or the AGP. I think the Muslim vote for the BJP is a myth. It does not exist, it will never exist, until the BJP becomes another Congress (but by then the Congress will have become the Muslim League or the MIM).
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Karan M »

Singha wrote:Not Tariq aziz..he was a sane head in Saddam high council.

with no track record to tomtom, congis and aap have no recourse but to bleat Gujarat this, Gujarat that.
exactly, and modi has done an amazing job of keeping the discourse focused on his strong point which is development, i know of several urban indians who will vote this time, who are slowly despite all their progressive and what not beliefs, coming around to the idea that modi is the right choice. he is an amazing strategist and knows what the public wants despite a lot of angst here about how he is not H'vadi enough in his remarks etc.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by BhairavP »

Actually, Tariq Aziz is Christian.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Singha »

someone should get to work on the poorer Ajlaf IMs - tell them flat out that if they want their sons not be garage mechanics, small traders, butchers..aimlessly racing 2 wheelers - anything that doesnt need formal education and want their daughters to have respectable jobs and growth prospects they need to get out of Ashrafi projected shadow puppet games as in Namo silhouette projected on the wall as a big black cat and focus on who will deliver them the most growth. focus on stomach and not always on the Qaum.

http://thecreativecat.net/wp-content/up ... Shadow.jpg
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Karan M »

i think some are getting it, but most are wedded to clerics and community leaders telling them what to do. it will take time to change. but simplest change will be seeing the H community progressing and other minorities and then them realizing that all this shadow boxing done by their leaders on their behalf is worthless.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Chandragupta »

Kabil Sibal blasted BJP last night on inviting a friend of terrorist Bhatkal in their party. Wow, that's a first.

I never imagined a Congressi speaking like that. He said something like "They are so mad about power. There is no Modi wave, that's why they are even inviting a friend of a terrorist Bhatkal to their party". They actually called Bhatkal a terrorist!! Good fun!
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by prahaar »

Chandragupta wrote:Kabil Sibal blasted BJP last night on inviting a friend of terrorist Bhatkal in their party. Wow, that's a first.

I never imagined a Congressi speaking like that. He said something like "They are so mad about power. There is no Modi wave, that's why they are even inviting a friend of a terrorist Bhatkal to their party". They actually called Bhatkal a terrorist!! Good fun!
Reminds me of song "Darshan to bhagwan...... Andha dekhe langda chalkar pahunche Kashi re".

Team-Modi is making people is making the most unlikely people say the most unlikely things. AAPtards calling out "Islamist-Anti-National Sabir Ali", AK donning Tripundra, Diggy calling for Masood not going unpunished, AAPtards trying to call out incorrect map of India on BJP's website, nice.

Reminds me of Sonia Gandhi going for Somnath Abhishek with SS-Waghela as the top-dog Congi leader in Gujarat. Of course, Gujarat is not India and vice versa.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by rkirankr »

Abhijit wrote:What is wrong with people? Why are you bringing Shalya into this? Do you mean to say that sabir ali is shalya? get your analogies right please :shock:
Yes agree with you and Yuyutsu survived the war
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by dhruvM »

BREAKING

Sabir Ali's membership cancelled!

Image
Last edited by dhruvM on 29 Mar 2014 14:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by kapilrdave »

SwamyG wrote:I have heard about solemn fasting by many people, but fasting like this on an election schedule? Almost 2-3 rallies every day - that is public speech for about 2-3 hours, plus travelling and grueling thinking and backroom discussions. Not many moments to recover from gaffes and mistakes.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/lok- ... 809005.cms
That vrat is non-negotiable. And it will only help him in his quest. Someone said here that Amma was told by the astrologers that it is going to be a female coming to power this time. I've heard some other astrologers predicting that it is going to be 'stree-shakti'. I don't doubt their prediction because it is going to be none other than Ma Jagdamba :D .
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just for record I'm writing here that there is going to be no sabotage against LKA. State leadership and even Sangh has mandated the cadre to do everything to ensure the victory and wheels are already moving. Now, can someone can give update from Vidisha?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by rohitv »

That Madhu Kishwar interview is basically her recorded talks with Modi when she did her "Gujarat Study Tour" which became basis of Modinama.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Singha »

its being reported in MSM that namo met sabir ali in person march6 under umbrella of some guj workers and okayed his inclusion.
if so, its a serious miss by him not consulting the rest of leaders and getting more data on the guy. it could also be a canard to tar namo.

sabir ali says if link between him and bhatkal is proven he will retire from politics, and that we he will await clearing of doubt about him.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_22539 »

dhruvM wrote:BREAKING

Sabir Ali's membership cancelled!

Image

Thank Heavens for that. I for one was getting tired of this pointless controversy. Just goes to show you how fragile our unity is, that we fight each other at the drop of a hat.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_22539 »

Singha wrote:its being reported in MSM that namo met sabir ali in person march6 under umbrella of some guj workers and okayed his inclusion.
if so, its a serious miss by him not consulting the rest of leaders and getting more data on the guy. it could also be a canard to tar namo.

sabir ali says if link between him and bhatkal is proven he will retire from politics, and that we he will await clearing of doubt about him.
Well, one can't expect him to know the biography of ever roach out there. I wonder who advised (sabotaged) him on this one.

Also, one must admire NaMo's willingness to correct a (true) mistake. He does not hang on to his ego like some other leaders.
Last edited by member_22539 on 29 Mar 2014 15:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sumeet »

This will cause some heartburn amongst a certain section of people. Hopefully, AK reads it.

Goldman Sachs: If Only India Were More Like Gujarat
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by kapilrdave »

^^ More like ammo for Rahul Mehta :)
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sanku »

nageshks wrote:
Karan M wrote:the rot that set in under LKA and swaraj and co wont dissipate overnight either.
The rot did not set in under LKA and SS, it only culminated under them. The rot began under the right honourable ABV. The BJP in 96 had a choice, r.
ABV and LKA were running BJP since 1980, they built it up. And the rot starts under them it seems.

There appears to be some "Hindutva" supporters who like a very fair weather set of friends who come by cheering as long as a some one is winning.

One diversion from a pet agenda or a single loss, and knives are out. ABV or SS or NaMo or whoever.

We also have some born again Hindutva supporters like Rahul Mehta ji -- who have never supported BJP, will never do that, have always run it down but most recently seem to have discovered uber hindutva to declare themselves as final arbitrator of what is right Hindutva.

So either BJP has to be ridiculously impractical or it is not good enough. For BJP to appeal to Hindu's the bar as to be jupiters escape velocity, while the others can crawl in the mud.

The thought that there are committed people who have built BJP through out their lives is of course irrelevant, and people may be trying tactical moves within the realm of possibilities is also lost.

The fact that well meaning folks can make mistakes, and best made plans unravel is also lost.

Name calling suffices.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Hari Seldon »

The Dynasty's brazen-it-out attitude is admirable, mussay...

Image
kapilrdave
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by kapilrdave »

Arun Menon wrote: Thank Heavens for that. I for one was getting tired of this pointless controversy. Just goes to show you how fragile our unity is, that we fight each other at the drop of a hat.
I think this frustration mixed fragility is because of the failure of hindu leaders for centuries. At every crucial juncture in the history they have chocked. BJP's ability of snatching the defeat out of jaws of victory is also linked to this. Generations after generations we kept waiting for hindu resurgence but every time it fell just short at the time of final push. As if it was not the ripe time for dharma's victory. Modi is the current hindu hope and last thing we want to see is him falling short. That is why this excessive vigilance on him - which I think is necessary too. But it will also block him to make tactical moves. The job he is expected to do is not easy. To put things into perspective, if (and it is a himalayan 'if') somehow he achieves what we expect from him, he will be the single biggest hindu hero in 500 years. God knows what happened behind the scenes regarding sabir's induction but for once we need to shudder off the burden of our history and believe in our only hope. In the mean time we, as the soldiers of dharma should keep doing what we do best, bombard SM with dharmik thoughts.

I was thinking about possible strategies to get IM's turned into dhimmies in say next 15-20 years. Basically to turn table around to a scenario where Ms are like today's hindus - sickular and deracinated. One way is to make them butcher each other so violently and for so long that they get disgusted of their own doctrine. But this is a longer and violent way of doing it. Could be applied on pak but certainly not preferred for our own land. The other way is to somehow make it compulsory for every M leader to praise hindu gods, hindu netas, hindu history, wear hindu symbols and lecture their own community to be 'progressive' and 'tolerant' with majority. IMO that is what NM is trying to do with the likes of sabirs. Out of political compulsion he had to wear the saffron scarf, saffron phool-mala, praise modi and bash bhatkal! Whereas NM has yet to wear the skull cap :lol: . MJA will be used to constantly lecture them.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by kapilrdave »

After 20 years, we should target to be at the place where US is today. No political leader can openly support islam. Even the president must feel ashamed of being a M and it becomes necessary for him to hide his identity. Tathastu.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Shanmukh »

Sanku wrote:
nageshks wrote: The rot did not set in under LKA and SS, it only culminated under them. The rot began under the right honourable ABV. The BJP in 96 had a choice, r.
ABV and LKA were running BJP since 1980, they built it up. And the rot starts under them it seems.

There appears to be some "Hindutva" supporters who like a very fair weather set of friends who come by cheering as long as a some one is winning.
While the credit for building up Hindutva ideology goes to LKA, ABV was a reluctant participant in the Hindutva agenda - he preferred to fight on the basis of vague Hindu interests, but a largely developmental agenda. See the BJP manifesto of 1984. Centred around people like Vajpayee, Sikandar Bakht and Shekhawat, they attempted to do exactly what NaMo is doing today. However, given the Congress strength of the time, and the death of Indira Gandhi, it failed.

By late 80s, the BJP Hindutva agenda had taken centre stage, and that was what was propelling the BJP further. The BJP grew between 91 and 98, because of the Hindutva agenda. But owing to the fact that BJP did not even exist in half the states, growth was not instantaneous. Can you cite any instance of the BJP being called communal being detrimental to the party?

However, the blame for destroying the BJP credibility on those issues also goes to the LKA-ABV squad. The BJP is today fighting on the idea of development not just because NaMo wants to pitch a neutral agenda. It is because BJP has lost credibility on its old Hindutva agenda.

After 96, the BJP faced a choice. It could continue to plough a lonely furrow, and try to grow on its own, or it could shop for allies at the price of its agenda. Both had risks. Growth was by no means assured in a reasonable frame of time, so the first agenda carried the risk of bringing the BJP tantalisingly close to power, but never to power, and thus weakening interest in the BJP as a party that could never come to power. Shopping for allies risked poisoning BJP's USP. The former was proposed by Govindacharya and his faction. He lost and was kicked out by ABV-Mahajan faction. ABV's formula brought in instantaneous rewards, but destroyed BJP as a party with a difference. it became the Vajpayee Congress. The results of it are around for you to see.

While it is easy to dwell on hypothetical alternatives than come to terms with a disappointing reality, the fact remains that ABV-LKA are responsible for the disappointing reality. Just because people point out BJP's flaws and challenge its historical narrative, does not mean they are impractical, or backstabbers. It seems it is you who is indulging in name calling, without a cold analysis of what has been done to the BJP over the years.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by panduranghari »

nageshks wrote:
Karan M wrote:the rot that set in under LKA and swaraj and co wont dissipate overnight either.
The rot did not set in under LKA and SS, it only culminated under them. The rot began under the right honourable ABV. The BJP in 96 had a choice, they could wait to build up their party in regions where they were weak (it would take another election or two before BJP grew enough to start yielding seats in AP, Odisha, TN, Assam and WB, or they could go shopping for allies at the expense of their ideology. They chose the latter, and in doing so, poisoned their own USP to the extent that the BJP has lost credibility totally on those issues. Now we are seeing the second phase of poisoning of Hindutva agenda, so that no one else will also be able to use these issues. The best we can hope for under Modi is Nehruvian secularism, where leaders were personally pious, conservative Hindus, but the policies they followed were totally anti-Hindu.

The irony, however, is that BJP was growing as long as it held steadfastly to its communal agenda. From 11% of the vote in 89, it grew to 25% in 98, whereas the secular agenda brought it down to 18.8% from the previous high of 25%. Indeed, communalism helped, not hurt the BJP. But let us not destroy the illusion of secularism and Muslim votes with hard facts. It is better to live in la la land, get fawned on by Burkha bibis, kowtow to the Mafia, and have a good time at the expense of the very people who voted them to power.
Well said. I feel NaMo understands this. At least RSS does understand this. Or else they would not expressed dissent about Sabir Ali.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sanku »

nageshks wrote:
Sanku wrote: ABV and LKA were running BJP since 1980, they built it up. And the rot starts under them it seems.

There appears to be some "Hindutva" supporters who like a very fair weather set of friends who come by cheering as long as a some one is winning.
While the credit for building up Hindutva ideology goes to LKA, ABV was a reluctant participant in the Hindutva agenda - he preferred to fight on the basis of vague Hindu interests, but a largely developmental agenda.
ABV being a "reluctant" Hindutvawaadi is a bit of urban legends . He is one of the original ideologues, except that he was more into taking it to the people, rather than purist.

He was called mukhata for a reason. He provided the touch point which translated an intellectual basis of the movement to an outreach which people can identify with.

Can you cite any instance of the BJP being called communal being detrimental to the party?
BJP has always been called communal and will always be called communal unless the power equation changes, which is quite some time away even assuming 15 years of NaMo.
However, the blame for destroying the BJP credibility on those issues also goes to the LKA-ABV squad.
Oh no, apart from a very small "purist" and some baiters, there is no loss of credibility on these issues, the above is also a corollary of the above, viz BJP will always be communal -- to measure electoral success with credibility on ideology and use that as an metric for performance is, as I never tire of saying, horribly misplaced for focused forum like BRF.
After 96, the BJP faced a choice. It could continue to plough a lonely furrow, and try to grow on its own,
It is not merely about BJP -- it is also about the country. It may escape you, but ABV and LKA may have just been stepping up to the plate and doing what they felt was necessary to do the right thing for the country.
Just because people point out BJP's flaws and challenge its historical narrative, d.
Oh yes, when people make a big deal about the flaws, happily divorcing the narrative from the real world context, one does wonder what kind of thoughts form the basis of that critique.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Victor »

nageshks wrote:
Victor wrote: Dr Praveen Patil tweet is wrong, simple as that. Sabir Ali will bring at least some Muslim votes to BJP so it makes electoral sense; it is a powerful symbol to have a previously anti-BJP guy now singing the praises of BJP and it will make a big impact if he goes on TV to explain why he was mistaken previously.
Victor-ji,
As someone from (or with ties to) the NE, you do know how many Assamese Muslims vote NaMo and/or BJP, do you not? Even Assamese Muslims who stand to lose immensely from Bangladeshi infiltration hate BJP and vote Congress or AGP. When AGP ties up with BJP, the AGP's Assamese Muslim votebank jumps to Congress. You must have reflected on this. I can tell you even this time, in Barpeta where the Assamese Muslims have been at the receiving end from the Bangladeshis, the Assamese Muslims will still vote the Congress and/or the AGP. I think the Muslim vote for the BJP is a myth. It does not exist, it will never exist, until the BJP becomes another Congress (but by then the Congress will have become the Muslim League or the MIM).
Nagesh ji, I have reflected on this and my anger is more directed against those Asomia Hindu 'gorus' (cows) who will brainlessly vote en masse for congress. I guess I am optimistic by force because the alternative--a perennially divided India with one sizable minority dragging down everyone else--is too painful a thought. Painful for everyone that is, so I am hoping that the other side sees this too. So far, the Modi message has been the only believable one that has reached out to every Indian equally so my optimism is high that we can break out of the straitjacket. If what you say happens and no Muslims vote for Modi, it doesn't matter who is in power because India will be finished. Modi at least knows this.
sooraj
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by sooraj »

Modi might address rallies in 3D avatar :)
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 047_1.html
gandharva
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by gandharva »

^^^ I thought it's already decided and starts from 6th April.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by sunnyP »

Sumeet wrote:This will cause some heartburn amongst a certain section of people. Hopefully, AK reads it.

Goldman Sachs: If Only India Were More Like Gujarat
kapilrdave wrote:^^ More like ammo for Rahul Mehta :)
:D
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