Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 01 Apr 2014 07:40

Any further updates regarding this test ?

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 03 Apr 2014 14:31

Israel, India agree on missile defense system against China, Pakistan nuclear strikes

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 03 Apr 2014 23:35

I thought Israel is having great relation with Panda. Have they not given a fighter design to them Levy or something like that?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Apr 2014 10:48

What happens to the on-going Indian BMD project ? This has not been reported by any Indian media so far. I am not so sure about the accuracy of the report.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 04 Apr 2014 14:22

It would make more sense to cooperate with Russia on S-400 and see how it can be incorporated into our Missile & Air Defence system.

Putin has recently cleared sale of S-400 system to China.

And under no circumstance should work on our Indigenous missile defense system be stopped. Missile defence, ballistic missiles, stealthy hypersonic cruise missiles, nuclear submarines all these only we can make it for ourselves.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Apr 2014 17:24

John wrote:The range for Brahmos is 300 km to increase range any further would decrease terminal rang/lo flight path increasing its intercept rang. When missile is reduced its flight altitude it would be quite vunerable best done outside of ships air dense system engagement envelope. We are not going to out range PLAN which has improved moskit which has double the fuel of Brahmos 200+ lo lo range ( similar engine )and pretty sure chinese have hacked it to get range max range. It's seeker that is key here not range.

The range of Brahmos is above 300 km but we wont be stating any thing above that range due to MTCR limitations ....The range of Onyx is more than 500 km that should give you good reason what you can expect the real range.

If Brahmos ever claims to have more range than advertised range , it would invite MTCR sanctions from US so for all practical purpose they would stick to advertised range.

Did you see the AI video of Dr Pillai where he admitted that range of Brahmos is more than 300 km and then the questioner was told to shut up by the person who was organising the Q&A session it should be on youtube if not removed.

Also check what Dr Pillai mentioned in latest Interview for Brahmos versus CBG , will post the entire interview later.

Q: Does the Indian Navy feel the need for nuclear-powered submarines armed with heavy cruise missiles in order to take on large ships, such as aircraft carriers?

A: After we proved Block III with supersonic vertical steep dive, I can assure you that BRAHMOS will split the aircraft carrier in one strike with its sheer speed.

John wrote:The original range for onyks was quoted as greater than 500 km but the engine development ran into issues and the current Brahmos/Yakhont uses liquid fueled ramjet engine that is based on Moskit engine.

Moskit engine is 3D-80 supersonic ramjet type with later variant ( 3D-81,82,82 ) upgrading on its capability introducing combustion stabilisation and dual position nozzle, it was developed by another design bureau in 70's i.e Zvezda Machine-Building Design Bureau

Brahmos/Onyx/Yakhont engine is 3D-55 developed by NPO Mashinostroyeniya , the key difference is t generational difference between the two engine , 3D-55 ramjet engine is fully-regulated movable nozzle duruing flight it can be throttled back to minimal thrust at optimum flight altitude then commanded to resume normal operation depending on the altitude its flying to conserve/optimise energy management.

You can see 3D-55 Engine picture from Brahmos in link below

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-397.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Apr 2014 19:07

JV does not mean that partners would/should "buy" the end product.

Unless there were either expectations or a statement from the Russians that they would buy the product what we discuss is interesting, but academic.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 04 Apr 2014 21:11

Narayana Rao wrote:I thought Israel is having great relation with Panda. Have they not given a fighter design to them Levy or something like that?

Israelis were very keen on selling our Phalcon system to cheenis but unkil objected and stopped them. Then unkil gave permission for us having the same Phalcons.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Apr 2014 21:12

John wrote:The original range for onyks was quoted as greater than 500 km but the engine development ran into issues and the current Brahmos/Yakhont uses liquid fueled ramjet engine that is based on Moskit engine.
Moskit engine is 3D-80 supersonic ramjet type with later variant ( 3D-81,82,82 ) upgrading on its capability introducing combustion stabilisation and dual position nozzle, it was developed by another design bureau in 70's i.e Zvezda Machine-Building Design Bureau

Brahmos/Onyx/Yakhont engine is 3D-55 developed by NPO Mashinostroyeniya , the key difference is t generational difference between the two engine , 3D-55 ramjet engine is fully-regulated movable nozzle duruing flight it can be throttled back to minimal thrust at optimum flight altitude then commanded to resume normal operation depending on the altitude its flying to conserve/optimise energy management.

This is what I surmised a few years ago with two BRF members and the control of the thrust was what enabled the accuracy.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 05 Apr 2014 05:28

ramana wrote:SS, This is a pontoon launch. And its 2K Km range which is the shorter trajectory to proof the basis systems.
The big possibility is Arihant might carry a mixed load.

Shourya, believed to be the land variant of K-15, was tested for ~550 km only in its first publicized official test. Its trajectory at that test was ballistic as reported (The Hindu).
Gradually, in the following tests, its range was increased to 600+ and then to officially declared range of 700 km.

Similar-wise, other missiles of this family could be tested in this fashion.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Apr 2014 13:59

India successfully test-fires BrahMos at Pokhran range - ToI ticker

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 07 Apr 2014 14:38

http://m.ibnlive.com/news/army-successf ... 3-239.html

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 07 Apr 2014 14:41

Deleted

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 08 Apr 2014 08:54

Was curious if BrahMos has been tested for such small distances earlier too?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 409776.cms

AISALMER: The Army on Monday successfully test-fired an advanced version of supersonic BrahMos cruise missile at Chandhan field firing range near Pokhran in Jaisalmer. The missile hit a target approximately 55 km away on Ajasar area.

The BrahMos missile with deep-penetration capability was launched from a mobile autonomous launcher deployed with full configuration with a mobile command post. The trial had also to do with complicated software upgradation in the missile system and it was a challenging one, said a DRDO official.

Following its predetermined trajectory, the missile successfully hit the designated target, said defence spokesperson Col SD Goswami. The launch was witnessed by high ranking Army and Air Force officers including the commanding officer of school of artillery.

"The launch has successfully validated the deep penetration capability of the supersonic cruise missile system against hardened targets," an official said.

The Army has already inducted the missile in its arsenal in two regiments, and preparing for third regiment this year.

The 290-km BrahMos flies at a speed of 2.8 Mach and carries a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg. The missile can be launched from multiple platforms including land, sea, sub-sea and air.

BrahMos Aerospace plans to deliver the missile to the IAF in 2015, where it is expected to arm at least three squadrons. A new, smaller variant of the air-launched BrahMos is also under development. This variant would arm the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, future inductions such as for Dassault Rafale and the Navy's MiG-29K.

nash · Post by **nash** » 08 Apr 2014 09:40

missile fire from chandan field in jaisalmer and the distance mention from is Ajasar area , these are two different area, look into the map u will get the clear picture

member_28452 · Post by **member_28452** » 08 Apr 2014 14:03

Can anyone explain to me why we are still stuck on Brahmos missile <300KM range(Which i know comes from International limitations). We are spending efforts to put it on ships and even a Su-30. Why not have a missile like Nirbhay with 1000KM+ range be used? Is it cost or anything that I am missing?

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 08 Apr 2014 14:26

nash wrote:missile fire from chandan field in jaisalmer and the distance mention from is Ajasar area , these are two different area, look into the map u will get the clear picture

Thanks Nash

vic · Post by **vic** » 08 Apr 2014 18:20

My guess is that if Brahmos is fired in hi-hi-hi mode and last phase is unpowered glide phase, followed by shallow dive attack, then it's range may be upto 500-700km

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Apr 2014 18:51

BrahMos ready for mountain warfare - N.C.Bipindra, New Indian Express

With an eye to protect the Northeastern states from Chinese incursions, the Army on Monday tested a modified-cum-upgraded Block-III version of its supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, suitable for mountain warfare in a steep dive-cum-target discrimination mode, in Rajasthan’s Pokhran desert.

The testfiring was carried out as an user-trial by the Army’s missile regiment just after 1 PM in the Pokhran missile test range, sources in both the Army and the BrahMos Aerospace said.

“The testfiring was highly successful and the missile, after differentiating among multiple possible targets, hit the bulls eye on its intended target between 40 and 60 km away, which is the maximum range allowed by terrain and habitation constraints in Pokhran,” the sources said.

“The Army had sought modifications in the Block-III version of BrahMos with upgraded target differentiation features, which was provided. This was essentially an user-trial by the Army unit,” the sources said.

“This version of the BrahMos is for mountain warfare,” they added.

India is in the process of raising its first-ever Mountain Strike Corps with headquarters at Panagarh in West Bengal as the offensive formation to counter any Chinese misadventure in its Northeastern states.

This version of the BrahMos is likely to be deployed by missile regiments there, sources told ‘Express’ here.

Interestingly, the Army trial was witnessed by Air Force’s Western Air Command Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Air Marshal S S Soman along with Army’s School of Artillery Commandant Lieutenant General A K Misra. The IAF’s interest in BrahMos is due to the work underway to fit a smaller version of the missile on Sukhoi combat planes.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 10 Apr 2014 23:54

More Missile Tests This Month

While a user trial of nuclear capable Agni-I has been scheduled for April 11, an interceptor missile will be tested on April 19. Besides, 12 rounds of Akash missile have been planned to be tested in the next 45 days.

nash · Post by **nash** » 11 Apr 2014 07:45

no Nirbhay test and interceptor test too also endothermic not exothermic ......

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 11 Apr 2014 09:41

endo must be more complicated , since the time left for impact is in fractions of seconds

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 11 Apr 2014 10:19

nash wrote:no Nirbhay test and interceptor test too also endothermic not exothermic ......

I think you mean endoatmospheric and exoatmospheric.

nash · Post by **nash** » 11 Apr 2014 10:37

PratikDas wrote:
nash wrote:no Nirbhay test and interceptor test too also endothermic not exothermic ......
I think you mean endoatmospheric and exoatmospheric.

Yes i mean exo-atmospheric and endo-atmospheric and IIRC plan was to test the exo one or both simultaneously.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Apr 2014 10:53

endo is more challenging than exo, but exo PDV test is pending

nash · Post by **nash** » 11 Apr 2014 17:14

Its not only pending but long pending, last exo(PAD) test happend on 2009 and after then only we are hearing about PDV.

I am not sure may be DRDO go PAD on K-15 way because if we see some specification like intercepting altitude, which is comparable to thaad. And DRDO don't want to publizie much more unless this technology get fully mature and they master it completely.

kish · Post by **kish** » 12 Apr 2014 00:24

Yaay!! First night trial of Agni-I

Hindustan Times ‏@htTweets 6m

India successfully conducts first night trial of nuclear-capable Agni-I ballistic missile, say Defence sources: PTI

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Apr 2014 01:15

marshallah! Aoa !

next should be night trial in heavy monsoon rain with just impact point dye marker and no telemetry.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Apr 2014 09:26

Agni-I clears Night Trial - Y.Mallikarjun, The Hindu

In its first night trial, the Agni-1 surface-to-surface nuclear-capable ballistic missile was test-fired for its full 700-km range from the Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast on Friday.

Part of regular

user training

The missile was picked up randomly from the production lot and launched by Strategic Forces Command personnel as part of regular user training. The 12-metre-tall missile lifted off from its mobile launcher and zoomed into the night sky at 11.03 p.m.

At the end of the flight, the missile zeroed in on to a pre-designated target in the Bay of Bengal with accuracy.

Two down-range ships recorded the terminal event as the missile splashed down into the sea, while the entire trajectory was tracked and monitored by radars, the electro-optical network and telemetry stations along the east coast.

The single-stage, solid-fuelled missile is capable of carrying a payload weighing 1,000 kg up to a distance of 700 km. The missile, which has already been inducted, was developed in a record time of 15 months in the wake of the Kargil conflict after the Army perceived its need.

Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister Avinash Chander and Director-General, DRDO (missiles and strategic systems) V.G. Sekaran were among those present for the trial.

Earlier, the night trial of Agni-1 was postponed twice in February after the missile developed a technical glitch.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Apr 2014 10:55

So did the reports tell what is do important about the night trial? To me looks like they can observe the terminal flash better. As the have go launch eastwords its tough due to sunrise. Maybe need to launch farther onto Indian Ocean.

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 13 Apr 2014 18:29

Please ID the following, being misreported as part of a 'helicopter' by The Hindu. 'Exhaust' nozzle appears to be non-metallic. A towed target, perhaps?

Helicopter remnants found near Itchapuram

member_28526 · Post by **member_28526** » 13 Apr 2014 20:41

Is the Agni not an all weather launch capable system?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Apr 2014 22:09

Agni series, was but we never tested it before at night, probably since we were not confident enough.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Apr 2014 22:22

Looks like the towed target from a Lakshya

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 13 Apr 2014 22:28

Aditya_V wrote:Agni series, was but we never tested it before at night, probably since we were not confident enough.

After 25 years of first Agni launch not being confident of a night launch is pretty risky statement

and that too for Agni 1. Then what about the latter Agni series.
I had raised such a query sometime back as to why all launch are under Ideal conditions. There should be more real STRESS testing for all the missile system. This will give us the actual driving figures and not the ARAI stated figures

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 13 Apr 2014 23:30

Most tests are conducted in conditions were they can be monitored continuously to see if they perform as expected. By now there should be enough confidence to let SFC do a few tests on their own from A-1,A-2 and A-3 lot.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 13 Apr 2014 23:32

There should not be much difference btw night and day trials. This is some ddm noise. Recall that the first Agni-V test was originally scheduled for after sunset and postponed due to weather conditions (flight telemetry data may be lost in inclement weather).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Apr 2014 00:28

I have been juggling with this thought in my head.

If a test for readiness of a missile has to be postponed twice and succeeds only on the third attempt 2 months after its scheduled first trial, it is a failure in my opinion.

P.S.
1. There could be two very legitimate reasons. There was a problem in the tracking system and not the missile system itself. And there was a minute design-flaw overlooked till now since it was always tested during the day.
2. Somebody very wise said. "Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one."

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 14 Apr 2014 05:48

One thing is stated is that it was taken from a random lot.This may indicate not a problem with the missile per se but with tracking units or some other monitoring issue if the pick of the draw of the missile was truly random.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Apr 2014 06:38

in addition to heavy monsoon rain test, a deep drive test on a cyclone night will lead to all dhoti shibbers in the neighborhood and beyond.