Eastern Europe/Ukraine

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 04 May 2014 14:51

^^ Virupaksha's words on democracy and governance and unnecessary external influence above reminds me of one thing that Ram Jethmalani beautifully refuted recently.

Economist recently had an article [didn't see the article, only read Jethmalani's rebuttal in IE] wherein the editor says something to this effect: "NaMo looks likely to become the next PM of India... but just because he can doesn't mean he should". (My opinion: Eh? What was that? 120 crore people in India. 70-75 crore can vote and they decide who wants to become the PM. And when they are OK with it, who the heck are you really to even call it out? No freaking country has even so many people as electorates and such a large number if they decide, the economist decides that its wrong?)

Ram Jethmalani however gave a beautiful rebuttal and it was quite worthy of him and nice reading.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 04 May 2014 15:27

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-0 ... ens-killed

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 04 May 2014 16:44

It is more complicated - because the key historical memory in Moscow here is not WWII although thats the emotional touchstone, even though an enormous percentage of those 20 mil were not ethnic Russians, but the peoples of the periphery - the Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine, the Caucasus.

The key memory in the west is its failure to destroy Soviet Union by continually pushing Germany eastwards. The key memory is the running between the tail at Dunkirk and knowing at the back of your mind that USSR beat Germany and not the Anglo Saxons. This key memory/inferiority complex is driving the west to prop up fascist states around Russia today.

The key institutional fear/memory is the collapse and splintering of the Russian Empire (much more far reaching than 1991), and the incredibly bloody Russian civil war that followed 1917-1922, which set back Russia farther than even WWII because the violence, famine and state collapse extended throughout the country.

The key institutional fear/memory in the west is that of the balancing power USSR. The rise of another power might put an end to the free run of murder and mayhem unleashed by the the west in Serbia, Libya etc.

Russia has chosen the current route because it can no longer control Ukrainian politics at the national level, so its chosen to break up and incorporate the bits of Ukraine that it can influence.

The west has chosen the current route of capturing power in Ukraine through unelected fascist clowns because they know they can and will never be able to win a democratic election as history of past 20 years has shown. That is why they are provoking a civil war which will splinter Ukraine and will give at least some influence to the west in some parts of Ukraine. A civil war on the borders of Russia is Russia`s problem and not that of west.

This is in part because Moscow has never fully reconciled itself to the breakup of the Soviet Union.

This is entirely because west could not, cannot and will not reconcile itself to peaceful existence with any country that pursues an independent foreign policy and does not tow the American line. Toeing that line also is no insurance against blatant interference, violence, threat and military assaults.

Putin himself back in 2005 referred to its fall as the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century
http://archive.kremlin.ru/eng/speeches/ ... 7086.shtml

Madeline Albright said that the death of 500,000 children in Iraq due to sanctions is a fair cost to achieve the american strategic objective.
http://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/pol/ ... price.html

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 04 May 2014 17:18

Clearly, Putin believes that gradual restoration of the Soviet Union is the best preservative for Russia itself. I have more faith in Russia's ability to survive, but this is the real fear. Not invasion from outside.

Clearly Obama believes that gradual erosion of Russian influence in states around it is the best way to destroy Russia. I have more faith in Russia`s ability to survive despite the treacherous underhand evil handiworks of the US and its stooges.

The problem is that trying to rebuild the Soviet Union inherently puts him in conflict with the non-Russians in his neighborhood, as well as those who struggled with the Soviet Union. No one else in the region wants to see it back.

The problem is that trying to destroy Russian influence puts Obama in conflict with Russians in Russia`s neighbourhood as well as peace loving and common sense loving people of the world. No one in the world wants the democracy that US has installed in Iraq anywhere else.

And let me be clear - I don't want to see Russia disintegrate. Nor does the EU. That would be an enormous mess for Europe, far, far messier than the fall of the Soviet Union.

Dunno about you but the EU wouldn`t mind disintegration of Russia. Nor USA. They still thump their chest and claim victory in the cold war after the disintegration of USSR in spite of the fact that it was USSR`s internal economic issues that were the major cause.

A third way is possible, but it is up to the Kremlin to *believe* its possible.

No third way is possible because the leaders of the west have brains of wood and calculate everything in the zero sum game and Russia remains an enemy state.

Both NATO and the EU have offered Russia a special position in dialogue mechanisms that are very different from any other ex-Soviet republic.

The offer is sufficiently generous for Putin to let neo Nazis murder all russian speaking people in east Ukraine. Anyone thinking otherwise want USSR back.

There is enormous difficulty on both sides when it comes to accepting each others positions.

There are problems in the west because Europe is dependent on Russian gas. The bigger problem is Russia`s nuclear arsenal.

But there will be no WWIII. If it didnt happen in the Cold War when beliefs were so much more absolute, its not going to happen now. No one wants to get into a direct confrontation.

Because West is used to bombing countries that cant hit back. Russian nukes can bite hard.

The current Ukrainian government is also in a struggle with the far right. I'm not sure if this has been posted more directly in the thread, but it was in one of the longer pieces I linked a few pages back. Thats in part because they hoped to muscle their way into power, and in part because the far right is strongly anti-American and anti-EU.

The far right is taking orders from Americans. The current government is led by the far right. How could it possibly have a problem with itself. The propaganda of course is for domestic consumption. After years of falsely and foolishly claiming to have single handedly beaten the far right in Germany it is difficult to sell support to them at home. SO its necessary to portray them as innocent as lambs troubled by both the right and the evil russians.
Hitler also suppressed all other far-right parties in Germany after coming to power which means that his government struggled against far right. Stop fooling people.
Here from your link

Muzychko was a prominent member of Praviy Sektor, a far-right paramilitary outfit which took part in the Maidan uprising against the then president, Viktor Yanukovych. The group has no role in government, although its leader Dmytro Yarosh has announced he intends to stand in May's presidential election.

There was nothing 'phony' about the Maidan protests - the EU issue was merely the trigger for underlying existing complaints against the government, and as I suggested earlier, any Ukrainian government can expect more trouble in the future. The problem as in any protest is when peaceful protest is met with force, starting a spiral of escalation.

The protest was not met with force. Some sniper from the hotel which had mostly western media persons in it shot to provoke a conflict. The life of Yanukovich was endangered and he left. Lucky for him. Even if there was nothing phony about the protests, the west certainly tried to hijack it. Nuland was arranging meetings with clowns who are in power now and deciding who will be in the government in future. The recognition of a non-elected junta after a violent assault bares the western hypocricy even if the protests themselves were not phoney.

I don't support the surrender of any democratic state to armed insurrection either.

. So how did the current `govt` come to power ?

The British government is absolutely not in favour of a war with it Iran

The British govt will do what it is ordered by the under secretary or someone of lower rank from Washington.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2014 18:08

Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 May 2014 18:16

These are not "radicals", they are rascals. Neo-Nazi scumbags, hain?

Tragic to see the US and European governments pretending to enjoy the sh1t-shower of association with such scum, and actively supporting them with weapons and money from US and European taxpayers.
And intelligent people writing in Strong Support of them.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2014 19:03

Professor Stephen Cohen of the Nation Magazine joins Thom to talk Russia, Ukraine, and why we're in a new Cold War.If you liked this clip of The Thom Hartmann Program, please do us a big favor and share it with your friends... and hit that "like" button!

Are we in a new Cold War?

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 04 May 2014 19:18

Austin wrote:Professor Stephen Cohen of the Nation Magazine joins Thom to talk Russia, Ukraine, and why we're in a new Cold War.If you liked this clip of The Thom Hartmann Program, please do us a big favor and share it with your friends... and hit that "like" button!

Are we in a new Cold War?

Thanks Austin. Prof Cohen just about said it all.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2014 19:35

Rajiv Lather wrote:
Austin wrote:Professor Stephen Cohen of the Nation Magazine joins Thom to talk Russia, Ukraine, and why we're in a new Cold War.If you liked this clip of The Thom Hartmann Program, please do us a big favor and share it with your friends... and hit that "like" button!

Are we in a new Cold War?
Thanks Austin. Prof Cohen just about said it all.

Indeed one of the few American who has good clarity of thoughts on this matter and can see both sides of the story that because he lived through Cold War and was part of Détente and can see the consequences of the evolving situation

Compare that with present day American Media that has attention span of a hummingbird and are mostly War Mongers.

I have closely followed the American Media specially the TV during Iraq and Syrian Crisis and war is something thats celebrated on the media as the right thing to do.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2014 19:36

makes good read

Will Ukraine Be NYT’s Waterloo?

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 04 May 2014 19:37

Prof Cohen says, "Not one out of 535 US congress members have spoken out, or asked a question about where this policy is headed; either they have lost their minds or their courage".

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 04 May 2014 19:51

Austin wrote:makes good read

Will Ukraine Be NYT’s Waterloo?

yawn, that would be nyts 42983475983247598th waterloo, if such a thing exists.

as long as gullibles believe that in the myth that there is such a thing called neutral or independent media, the waterloos will keep on coming.

Vikram.G · Post by **Vikram.G** » 04 May 2014 19:58

A new line has been drawn in sand by west with the elections in Ukie. One can’t miss the similarities with the Syrian situation of getting khan involved overtly. With the Poles punching way above their weight and taking over the new rent boy duties from Turkey, Is there a possibility of trouble from them?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 04 May 2014 20:02

Johann wrote: Putin's objections were not to specific clauses such as the CSDP, to which an opt out clause could probably be negotiated as it has for Denmark. It was to any sort of association agreement, period, with any former Soviet republic. Armenia was offered an association agreement, and pressured into declining it. Moldova (which no longer shares a border with Russia) and Georgia accepted it.

Let me give you an example of the extent to which the Kremlin sees EU-Ukrainian partnership of any sort a no go zone - this is before the AA was negotiated:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/03/ ... O920090326

It would seem Russia's position has evolved since 2009.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 04 May 2014 20:10

FYI, this was written back in February.
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... -hand.html

In a recent discussion with a retired four star admiral, I was taken somewhat aback by his assertive response to a query about the unfolding events in Ukraine. Asked about the issue of Russia's longterm leasing treaty with Ukraine for the naval base at Savastopol on the Black Sea, my friend noted that "Anyone with serious military experience knows that, for the Russians, the Black Sea port issue is an absolute red line. No one in their right mind should be stirring up this issue, because it can be a war trigger." I was not surprised to find out that for Russia, the existence of their key naval base on the Black Sea is of supreme importance. I was, however, taken by the intensity of my friend's alarm at the unfolding events in Ukraine. In hindsight, I am sure that he is correct.

While there is no immediate indication of any Russian plans to replay the events of 2008 in Georgia, where Russian forces moved sharply to curtail Georgian efforts to assert sovereign control over South Ossetia, it should be noted that the Ukraine crisis has greatly exacerbated tensions between Russia and the European Union--and some American diplomats, including neocon princess Victoria Nuland (wife of Robert Kagan) have been fueling the crisis further by demonstrably siding with the opposition. This American involvement was further exacerbated when a leaked conversation between Nuland and US Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt revealed Washington cherry picking the members of a future cabinet--with no consultation with Ukraine's legitimately elected government.

For Russia, the opposition is more than a collection of pro-European Union forces. Among the most violent and active groupings in the Maidan Square in Kiev are groups with overt histories dating back to the pro-Nazi Bandera Movement of Ukrainian Nationalists who slaughtered tens of thousands of Poles, Jews and Russians during Operation Barbarosa. Those networks of largely Gallician ultra-nationalists were subsequently recruited to work for MI6, the CIA and German intelligence during the early decades of the Cold War. The fault lines in Ukraine run deep and only a patient, sophisticated diplomatic approach will lead to a non-violent ending to the current crisis.

It is in this context that the "heat of the moment" can dangerously impact the strategic red lines of Moscow. The issue in warfare or potential warfare is to always understand the factors motivating the adversary. The usual Obama Administration rhetoric about "democracy" and "Western values" doesn't cut it when such issues as the Russian Black Sea strategy are on the line.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 04 May 2014 20:23

UlanBatori wrote:These are not "radicals", they are rascals. Neo-Nazi scumbags, hain?

...And intelligent people writing in Strong Support of them.

What intelligent people ? I see no signs of intelligence; just greed and arrogance...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2014 21:53

Germany calls for second Geneva meeting on Ukraine's crisis

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier on Sunday called for a second international conference to put an end to the crisis in Ukraine. He said he made the proposal in telephone conversations on Sunday with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, US Secretary of State John Kerry, and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

"In the many discussions I've had in the last couple of hours, I've been campaigning ... to hold a second meeting in Geneva to follow up on the first one," he told ARD television, according to a text of an interview to be aired later.

He said the purpose of such a meeting would be "finally to make clear agreements on how we can we can put an end to this conflict and gradually move towards a political solution", Reuters reports.

"Anything else would be irresponsible because it would only mean there are more victims," he added.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 May 2014 00:15

Wow, this thread seems to have moved quite a bit since I last posted here.

Johann wrote:Russia has no problems with Finland, which shares a border, is an EU member, but is also neutral and has not sought NATO membership.

A similar solution was, and still is possible for Ukraine. That country's accession has been stalled for over a decade in part because NATO-Russian dialogue made it clear that this was an especially sensitive issue. The West has offered Ukraine no military aid.

There's no analogy between Finland and Ukraine. Ukraine was part of USSR until two decades ago. Half of Ukraine was Russia proper until Russia itself did an internal territorial reassignment, partly to make up for the devastation they wreaked upon western Ukraine previously. And unlike the Baltic states, who were the last in the USSR door and the first out of it, Ukraine was very much part of historical Russian cultural, geographic and political domain.

The NATO went back on its word not to expand to Russia's borders. The NATO itself is an anomaly today, and a dangerous one at that. Let's look at it in reverse - suppose there was no NATO, but there was still a Warsaw Pact. Despite Russia assuring the west until its face turned blue, does anyone expect the west to believe WP is not directed at the west ? That's the situation today - Russia does not believe NATO exists for any other reason than to keep a hand firmly at its throat.

When the west has a historically antagonistic defence organization that still exists in the same name and function, you're going to have very little credibility convincing anyone, least of all the Russians, that you mean well here. One can take a huge leap of imagination to pretend you do mean well, but no one but the west would take it at face value.

Johann wrote:Thats sort of like saying Nepal and Arunachal Pradesh are the same thing, or that Nepal and Chinese held Tibet are the same thing.

Seeing as it is that Nepalis have unrestricted right to be in India, and vice versa, I would argue that there's little difference. There's a political separation, but there's hardly even a defence one, considering who fills the Gorkha regiments.

The reason you're dissembling is simple - you don't want to accept that Russia was content with a buffer state, and wanted to actually expand. Further, what Russia is doing in Ukraine today is not expansion - it's reclaiming what has been its own territory for the better part of the last several hundred years.

The west, for its own reasons would like to characterize this as 'aggression', 'expansion' or 'conquest'. The fact that NATO still exists makes it a given that Russia will make sure it gets back its buffer states any way it can. The west, by spending the last 20 years believing it won the cold war, and therefore needed to do nothing to soothe Russian concerns, ensured that.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 May 2014 00:24

Johann wrote:This is in part because Moscow has never fully reconciled itself to the breakup of the Soviet Union.

This is impossible to do when the NATO *still* exists. When the NATO still exists, Russia would legitimately consider that they need Soviet borders again to defend itself against the eastern enroachment of the EU and NATO.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 05 May 2014 01:23

When I was about 8 years old, I used to think that NATO stood for North American Toffees and Oranges. Later I learned that the A stood for Atlantic. OK, Finland is somewhere connected by sea to the North Atlantic I suppose. Now I am very confused. Greece? Turkey? Now Estonia, Poland, Slovenia, Macedonia, Latvia, Ukraine... This sounds like Sanford of the Sanford&Son show buying Beachfront Property in Las Vegas.

Oh, of COURSE the Russians shouldn't worry... If the Cold War is over, what is the place of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization except as a Conclave of Colonialist Imperialists and Neo Nazis (CCIANN)?

I think the Georgia solution must be uppermost in Putin's mind - the only way to go, fully backed by the willingness to push the buttons on the Strategic Triad. The air and ground segments of the Triad may be knocked out, but I don't see how the submarine part can be fully stopped.

I am cleaning out the junk for the Fallout Shelter in Ulan Bator. A waste of time: there's probably a dozen MT aimed for here.

The destroyers in the Black Sea may be a smart idea, to receive the helicopter evacuation of the Nazis from Odessa.. but I can't believe BO signed off on sending that continent of GROUND Troops to Poland with so much fanfare at this time. If that wasn't an irresponsible provocation, I don't know what is. Now what happens if Russia does move troops into East Ukraine and Odessa? If there is no military response, BO takes the fall. If there IS a military response... here's what it has to be:

1. F-117/F-22 raids on air defenses
2. B-2 raids on air force stations, rail lines, roads, bridges, and tank formations
3. B-2 attacks on Russian fleet
4. Attacks against Russian nuclear submarines
5. ..... what exactly are those ground troops for, again?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 05 May 2014 01:32

Totally false desi news heading, but one learns a few facts...

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 05 May 2014 01:50

UlanBatori wrote:Totally false desi news heading, but one learns a few facts...

I don't know if those are Nazis but I would like to find out.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 May 2014 04:32

What business had EU politicos supporting Right Sector "protesters" in the Maidan? What legitimate business did the CIA chief have in Kiev? What business has the US Veep got to do with fascist neo-Nazi thugs who have massacred 40+ protesters in Odessa? If the maidan protests were legitimate and justifiable to bring about regime change,then similarly the protests in the east must lead to the independence of these regions and their wish to merge with Russia if that is the majority opinion.

The US and West have gone around the globe in recent times instigating violent protests,unseating govts through military intervention as in Libya on the pretext of protecting civilians,that not a street urchin,dog,cat,rat,bandicoot trusts it any more or believes its BS. No amount of PR or spin will convince the rest of the world of its culpability in orchestrating the entire Ukranian crisis.

http://rt.com/news/156644-mariupol-kons ... operation/
Ukrainian army attacks eastern cities of Mariupol, Konstantinovka

The Ukrainian military has started an operation against pro-autonomy activists in the city of Mariupol, southeastern Ukraine, as well as the town of Konstantinovka, according to local self-defense activists.

The troops have moved into Mariupol and have surrounded an administrative building held by anti-government protesters. The protesters have set up barricades and are burning tires.

There are a few hundred activists inside the building. They told RT that the army is warning them that if they do not leave the building in the coming minutes, they will be fired at and the building will be seized.

“I am in the center of the city, there are a lot of ambulances outside the local administration building, gunfire is being heard, armored vehicles have entered the city and are moving towards the center,” witness Tatyana told RT by phone. “People are going there as well, to prevent the soldiers from shooting. We are hoping they won’t shoot at civilians, though from what we’ve seen before, we are not sure anymore.”

Mikhail Krutko from the self-defense headquarters told Interfax news agency: “Residents are unarmed, they blocked roads in the city center, built up barricades from tires and other things not to let hardware pass. They set tires on fire.”

People on the ground told RT’s Paula Slier that there are 300-500 anti-Kiev protesters there and they are unarmed. There have so far been no reports of injuries.

“There is no fatalities so far, but I can’t say anything about the number of injured. Right now police have returned from the scene, but people in dark uniforms can be seen in other parts of the city,” another witness named Dmitry told RT.

A bank building has been set ablaze in Mariupol, local news website 0629 reported.

At the same time, a convoy of Ukrainian APCs has forced its way through self-defense checkpoints near the Donetsk Region town of Konstantinovka. Shots and alarm can be heard inside the city.

There are reports that at least two people have been killed, Paula Slier says. The TV building has reportedly been seized by the army and all transmissions are currently off-air, she adds.

Ukraine's acting interior minister, Arsen Avakov, has confirmed that a special operation is underway in the town of Konstantinovka, adding that several soldiers have been injured.

In Donetsk, a demonstration against the Odessa tragedy snowballed into an attack on Ukraine’s Security Service building.

The reason behind the protesters’ anger was the news that two pro-Russian demonstrators had been detained in the city center. Around 3,000 people marched to the Security Service building, demanding the release of the activists. The building was empty, and the crowd took control of it for a few minutes.

Afterwards, the supporters of the newly-declared Donetsk People’s Republic seized the offices of “Donbass’s Industrial Union.” One of the company’s owners and its executive director is the Kiev-appointed Sergey Taruta, the governor of the region.

Meanwhile, in the town of Gorlovka, 40 kilometers to the north of Donetsk, pro-Russian protesters took control of the department of organized crime prevention. Interior Ministry and police employees were temporarily stationed in this building. No injuries or casualties have been reported.

Image from maps.google.com
National Security Council secretary Andrey Parubiy has said that Kiev is planning to begin special military operations in other regions of Ukraine after it completes its current operations in Slavyansk and Kramatorsk.

Over the past few days, Ukraine has stepped up its military operations in southeastern Ukraine against pro-autonomy activists. The main opposition strongholds include Kramatorsk, Slavyansk, Lugansk, and others.

In Lugansk, self-defense forces have declared a state of emergency and full mobilization amid Kiev’s punitive military operation in the region on Saturday.

At the same time, outraged residents of Kramatorsk have lashed out at troops entering the city's streets. The Ukrainian military is currently occupying the city of Kramatorsk following an assault early on Saturday, a local self-defense unit said. Activists said that 10 people died in fighting overnight and two others were “killed by snipers.”

Meanwhile, clashes between pro-nationalist radicals and anti-Kiev activists have intensified. On Friday, more than 45 anti-Kiev protesters were killed in Odessa; some died in clashes, while others died from burns or suffocation after being trapped inside the House of Trade Unions building by the ultra-nationalist Right Sector group.

Meanwhile,what the F**K are CIA and FBI agents doing in Kiev,according to the German paper

Dozens of FBI, CIA agents in Kiev 'assisting Ukraine security'
Published time: May 04, 2014

Numerous US agents are helping the coup-appointed government in Ukraine to “fight organized crime” in the south east of the country, the German newspaper Bild revealed.

According to the daily, the CIA and FBI are advising the government in Kiev on how to deal with the ‘fight against organized crime’ and stop the violence in the country’s restive eastern regions.

The group also helps to investigate alleged financial crimes and is trying to trace the money, which was reportedly taken abroad during Viktor Yanokovich’s presidency, the newspaper said.

The head of the CIA, John Brennan, visited Kiev in mid-April and met with the acting Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk and first Vice-President Vitaly Yarema to discuss a safer way to transfer US information to Ukraine.

Jen Psaki, spokeswomen for the United States Department of State, said that there was nothing to read into Brennan’s visit to Kiev, and that the head of the CIA did not offer support to the coup-appointed government in the country to help them conduct tactical operations within Ukraine.

However, following the visit the toppled President Viktor Yanukovich linked the CIA chief’s appearance in Kiev to the first stage of the new government’s crackdown in Slavyansk.

Brennan “sanctioned the use of weapons and provoked bloodshed,” Yanukovich said.

Bild’s reports comes as US President Barack Obama rules out that Washington will interfere in the situation in Ukraine.

“You’ve also seen suggestions or implications that somehow Americans are responsible for meddling inside Ukraine. I have to say that our only interest is for Ukraine to be able to make its own decisions. And the last thing we want is disorder and chaos in the center of Europe,” he said speaking in the White House after meeting the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, just two days ago.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 05 May 2014 05:36

I don't know if those are Nazis but I would like to find out.

Nazis or not, I hear Ukraine is really worth fighting for - by the criteria used by the destroyer captain in Pink Submarine.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 May 2014 06:41

Is this the smoking gun of western covert involvement in the Ukraine? Coupled with the news of CIA and FBI agents operating in Kiev,that US /Western mercenaries are in the Ukraine bolstering up the pathetic Ukranian police and armed forces,most reluctant to kill their own people,the evidence is another expose of the true facts of the crisis.Other western reports have proved that the pro-Russian activists are almost entirely of Ukranian background.We've seen how ordinary men and women stopped tanks in their tracks on a bridge .

The Daily Telegraph UK says that the Odessa massacre by the actions of Ukranian security forces/has now given Pres.Putin the perfect justification to intervene militarily as is being requested all over the eastern regions of the country.

Ukraine crisis: Mercenaries, M16 and ready meals - evidence of Western involvement, or something far less controversial?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 22948.html

A combat jacket with British markings and American military meals and ammunition found at the scene of a shooting in Andrievka leaves locals suspicious

“The snipers on that hill were British. People have seen them. You could tell by their uniforms,” Vitali Nelovich said with confidence. “They were by the television tower. But even before they were stationed, there were others who came by helicopter. They were very dark skinned”.

Alexei Viktorovich was also adamant: “The dark-skinned men were very professional, I was in the army myself, so I could tell. They didn’t stay long, flew in and flew out.”

There was other incriminating “evidence”, local people pointed out, of a foreign hand in the shooting which took place between Ukrainian forces and residents, claiming between seven and 10 lives and up to 20 injured in Andrievka, near the militant stronghold of Slovyansk on Friday evening.

There were MREs (Meals Ready to Eat) – a staple of US forces on combat missions, in the brown packets familiar to many of us from Iraq and Afghanistan, clearly marked Made in USA, issued by the Department of Defense. Also there, lying amid blood stains, body parts and a body yet to be taken away, were Nato 5.56mm cartridges as used in the US military’s M16 rifles. “I am not saying the foreigners did the killings”, but they were here, insisted Mr Velovich, a 45-year-old farmer.

There are plausible explanations for the two items. Washington has announced that it is sending “non-lethal” aid to Ukrainian troops, and the “jambalaya with chicken and shrimps” may qualify in that category, although some who have tasted it may disagree. The M16 is not standard issue for the country’s army, but the force which had assembled in this village included units of recently raised National Guard, and the assault rifles could have been obtained through a third party by the Kiev administration. The “dark-skinned” fighters may be from former Soviet Republics in central Asia, bringing their bloody feud with the Kremlin to eastern Europe; but, against that, there has been no verifiable account of their presence in this conflict.

When it comes to British soldiers, there is absolutely no evidence that they are here. But it is a tale conveniently fitting in with all the others about “hidden forces” and “mercenaries” that both the separatists and the government are keen to propagate as the violence escalates. This is not, after all, unusual in lands descending into civil war; there is a reluctance, perhaps natural, to accept that compatriots would be eager to inflict brutalities on each other and more comforting to blame outsiders; the raging conspiracy theories in such situations are ideal for disseminating such claims.

The previous day, in Slovyansk, a militant commander, Leonid, had claimed mercenary presence. “They came in SUVs. They were, I think, scouting. They behaved in a different way, more professional. They did not fire back when we fired at them, so they did not reveal their positions. Then they just disappeared; but we found their uniforms, they must have changed into civilian clothes.” A 5.56mm casing and MRE found near Andrievka A 5.56mm casing and MRE found near Andrievka

A group of fighters subsequently produced combat kit supposedly abandoned by these mercenaries. One combat jacket had a Union Jack on the sleeve, along with a panther’s head badge. “What is this? How do you explain this?” one demanded. I pointed out that one of his companions was wearing a Manchester United shirt, and asked them to consider whether a hired gun was really likely to be wearing his national colours.

The same combat jacket appeared later on a YouTube video. A man in balaclava displaying it exclaims: “Look at this chevron, a white lion!” Another man corrects him: “No, it’s a panther, an English panther”. The first man: “Yes, that’s right, English panthers, they are very close to the nationalists. They are very well trained. They came to kill us, but don’t worry, we will protect the public.”

What is much more likely to have happened is that the combat jacket belonged to a British soldier who had served in Helmand province in Afghanistan during Operation Panther’s Claw in 2009, and had somehow ended up in Slovyansk through army surplus stores.

Allegations of soldiers of fortune operating in the east of the country first surfaced months ago when well-armed masked men in combat uniforms, with no insignias, were used against pro-Moscow demonstrators in Donetsk who chanted “Blackwater! Blackwater!” at them. It was later claimed that they were not from the US security contractor which had attracted notoriety in Iraq, but from Greystone, a Blackwater affiliate. The Russian foreign ministry maintained the operatives were from Greystone, something the company denied. The following day, a crowd, somewhat confused, had switched the chant to “Greywater! Greywater!”

The Kiev administration, in turn, has repeatedly charged that agents of the Russian intelligence service, FSB, played a key role in fomenting the upheavals and that members of Spetsnaz, Russian special forces, had been active on the frontline, a reprise of the “men in green” so active in Crimea as the territory was annexed by Vladimir Putin. These claims have been echoed in Washington, London and other Western capitals.

Ukraine’s acting government had pointed the finger at Igor Ivanovich Strelkov, who they say is a Russian military intelligence operative in his mid- to late 50s, as being one of the main players in this maskirovka, or disguised warfare. However, a spokeswoman for the country’s SBU security service, Maryna Ostapenko, claimed that the man’s real name was Colonel Igor Vsevolodvich Girkin; who also used the name Strelok.

In an interview with a Moscow newspaper, Strelkov/Girkin/Strelok insisted that he was Ukrainian, not Russian: a common refrain among the separatist fighters.

It is, however, very possible that former members of the Russian forces are serving in militant ranks. During a visit to the police headquarters in Slovyansk, now controlled by separatists, Aleksandr, a former Ukrainian soldier, complained, pointing to his combat clothing: “I’ve seen pictures of this type in the Western media, saying it’s Russian. But it’s actually different.” He asked his companions to go and fetch Nicolai and, when the man appeared, Aleksandr said: “Now look: that’s Russian kit.”

“What? Who’s he? Hang on,” I spluttered into my tea; but the two men smiled and left. So who was Nicolai? He could, of course, have been a former Russian soldier. But he could also have been someone else with a fancy for army surplus. In the frontline of Donbass, what really lies behind the balaclava often remains elusive.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 05 May 2014 06:52

UlanBatori wrote: 5. ..... what exactly are those ground troops for, again?

To distribute lunch boxes (and sweets and cinnamon powder etc) to the starved Ukrainian soldiers. Reckon air drop doesn't work nowadays [Is it because Apple uses that term commercially and balked at the US policymakers suggesting using airdrop to drop lunch boxes? We will never know!]

The US takes its commitment quite seriously and is about to embark on a mission... of distributing lunch boxes. if it means it has to ship them from Poland, so be it. Costs much lesser than shipping from US anyways. In these days of cost cutting...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 May 2014 08:11

Check the link below , It also clears who was throwing Molotov cocktail from the roof its Right Sector Guys. Note the link has Graphically Disturbing Images

http://frallik.livejournal.com/781599.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 May 2014 09:26

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... dessa.html
Ukraine crisis: mob frees separatist 'heroes' as anarchy grips Odessa
Police prove powerless to stop crowd releasing survivors of blaze that has turned historic port into a place of fear and suspicion

By Roland Oliphant, Odessa

9:54PM BST 04 May 2014

They left in groups of threes and fours, soaked in the pouring rain and punched the air victoriously.

The pro-Russian protesters were greeted as heroes by the throngs of people gathered outside Odessa’s police headquarters. In scenes that could herald the arrival of eastern-style takeovers in Ukraine’s south, a mob surrounded the building and smashed their way in to free the prisoners.

“We came because we believe they were unjustly arrested. The people had to turn to radical means,” said Maxim, a masked fighter in the police station courtyard.

Storming police stations has become a trademark of the pro-Russian rebellion in eastern Ukraine, but this historic port on the south-western coast had been spared similar unrest. Not any more.

Since Friday’s street fighting between pro-government and anti-Kiev protesters and the horrific building fire that followed, Odessa has been a city in shock. At least 42 people died on Friday – more than 30 of them in a fire inside a local government building where pro-Russian activists took refuge after being surrounded by a pro-government crowd.
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Ukraine crisis: unity is lost in translation RBTH

Around 150 of the pro-Russians who escaped the blaze were arrested and jailed on Friday night – out of these, up to 100 walked free yesterday. Hundreds of anti-government protesters, many already enraged by police inaction on the day of the fire, descended on the police headquarters yesterday afternoon.

A growing crowd was already starting to get agitated when someone plucked a yellow and blue Ukrainian flag from its bracket outside the regional police headquarters in Odessa and replaced it with that of the city’s coat of arms.

Ukrainian Interior Ministry security forces clash with protesters outside a city police department in Odessa (Reuters)

The crowd, which included a large proportion of women and older people as well as the masked young men who spearheaded the assault on the building, chanted “Let them out!”, “Fascists!”, “Russia!” and “Freedom!”.

The protesters, carrying improvised weapons, tore two nearby security cameras from their sockets. Many of them wore the black and orange St George’s ribbon – a Russian military insignia that has become a symbol of the revolt.

Meanwhile, a handful of young men with clubs smashed windows, forced open a side door, and somehow managed to raise the security gate guarding the police station’s secure courtyard.

Police offered almost no resistance, and the mob appeared poised to repeat the full-scale storming and occupations that have befallen police stations across eastern Ukraine, before the police chief gave in and released the prisoners, who were greeted by cheering crowds.

Authorities on Sunday also gave in to demands to allow the public access to the charred trade union building.

People mourn inside the burned trade union building in Odessa (AFP)

Hundreds of mourners and curious locals wandered through blackened corridors and picked their way through broken glass and charred furniture in a fruitless search for evidence of how at least 32 people died.

The deadly fire appears to have been relatively isolated, destroying the ground floor lobby, with smoke damage on the first three floors, but leaving the side wings, rear, and upper floors untouched. Signs of other, isolated fires, could be found near upper story windows. Horrifyingly, it seems that many died from burns or asphyxiation just metres from safety in other parts of the building.

Blood stains spattered windowsills next to broken glass, and the personnel effects of some of the building's defenders – discarded balaclavas, a charred trainer, a lost St George’s ribbon, and mattresses laid out in the second floor corridor – were all that remained of those who died.

In the attic, which appeared entirely untouched by fire, a home-made wooden shield and improvised clubs lay among what looked to be a Molotov cocktail factory.

Whatever happened here, the shock, suspicion and anger it has generated has turned Odessa into a fearful place.

“Civil confrontation has already started. And in the east, it is already a civil war,” said Maxim, who said he was involved in the fighting before the fire on Friday.

Asked about allegations that the pro-Russian demonstrators used firearms on Friday, he was evasive. “I’m against shooting, because I think everything should be settled by negotiation,” he said. “But if the police can’t maintain order, the people have to do it,” he said.

And after the past three days, it is rapidly looking like the authorities are starting to lose control.

Editorial in the Independent UK:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/edi ... 22532.html

Editorial
Sunday 4 May 2014
As Ukraine’s agony intensifies, the temptation to walk away from an insoluble-looking conflict must be resiste
Sanctions and shrill denunciations of Putin are no substitute for proactive policy

However reluctant everyone must be to admit it, the fighting in Ukraine appears to have passed the point of no return. Following the shocking incineration of more than 30 people in Odessa in the south, and an unknown number of deaths at various flashpoints in the east, it is no longer hyperbole to talk of war on Europe’s eastern frontier. This is the new reality. The West’s Ukrainian strategy – based on gently drawing the country into the orbit of the European Union, and hoping Moscow wouldn’t notice – lies in ruins. Ukraine is now divided into east and west, though the frontier between the two is shifting, and too much blood has been shed for either side now to contemplate laying down arms easily.

Whatever happens with the Ukrainian army’s ongoing offensive, next Sunday will see another Crimea-style referendum in the east, which the pro-Russian separatists will win hands down. They already control most levers of power there – the town halls, the regional headquarters and the police. Even if the Ukrainian army recaptures the odd town between now and then, it is unlikely to be able to reconquer an entire region in which the population is overwhelmingly hostile to them.

The question, therefore, is not whether the referendum will go ahead but what will happen afterwards: whether the separatists will simply establish an autonomous region, or go further and proclaim outright union with Russia. After the carnage in Odessa, where those burnt alive were all supporters of the Russian cause, the mood in the separatist camp may have hardened to the point where they will not consider anything short of the Russian option. That will compel the US and Europe to impose new, tougher sanctions on Moscow, which won’t damage only Russia. Fresh sanctions will also strain the internal unity of the EU, as several member states, including Hungary, Bulgaria and Cyprus, oppose them.

As the strategic choices disappear one by one, and hopes of peace recede, policymakers in Washington and European capitals will be tempted to throw up their hands, blame everything on the Kremlin and walk away. The West has form in this regard, for that is what it did in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, when the Americans and Europeans rightly blamed Serbia for stirring up conflict there but did nothing about it. Instead, they wrung their hands and traded accusations as a low-level war sputtered on until 1995, when concerted action suddenly ended it.

It would be catastrophic if a similar sequence of events were allowed to unfold in Ukraine, with sanctions and shrill denunciations of Vladimir Putin substituting a more proactive policy. Sanctions may give Americans and Europeans the luxury of imagining that they are “doing something”, but to imagine that they will stop more lives from being lost in Ukraine is ludicrous. Much though it would pain Washington and its partners to adjust course, they should abandon the comforting but futile notion that absolutely everything going on in eastern Ukraine is the work of Kremlin wire pullers. They must open up some form of direct communication with the people who have taken up arms there.

At the same time, it is extraordinary that Western governments are making so little effort to find out what Russia’s own agenda actually is. They all seem content to work with the assumption that the Kremlin’s plan is to slice off another part of Ukraine around the city of Donetsk – even though a second annexation of Ukraine’s territory would deprive Moscow of all influence over the other three-quarters of the country for good, which cannot possibly be in Russia’s interest. Possibly, President Putin is now too maddened to care about Russia’s long-term interest. But it is tragic that our leaders seem reluctant to explore whether any common ground – however slender – still exists with Russia over Ukraine’s future. We owe it to the people of Ukraine, both east and west, not to walk away, and to try a lot harder.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 05 May 2014 10:18

UlanBatori wrote:
I don't know if those are Nazis but I would like to find out.
Nazis or not, I hear Ukraine is really worth fighting for - by the criteria used by the destroyer captain in Pink Submarine.

Yes it is indeed. Having a close friend who is from western Russia and a Russian of Ukrainian origin, I must absolutely agree. She feels it is a peculiar American madness and can't understand it - she's as pro American as they come btw.

Sad and stupid move by the US which should know better. I suppose some in Europe will be quietly happy because with such moves it is only weakening itself. I suppose there will be people inside the beltway thinking that they are leveraging the future presence of the US in Europe with this tactic, but it will be exactly the opposite. Time, and not much of it, will show ...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 May 2014 12:17

There is no evidence of Russia's involvement in Odessa massacre - US diplomat

There is no evidence of Russia's involvement in the Friday massacre in Odessa, US Ambassador in Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt had to admit Sunday as he spoke by telephone on a CNN program.

Friday, May 2, football fans who had come to Odessa from the northeast city of Kharkov as well as the combatants from two far-right extremist organizations, the Right Sector and the Maidan Self-Defense Force clashed with the supporters of federalization of Ukraine in downtown Odessa.

They set fire to the regional House of the Trade Unions and a tent camp near it where activists had been gathering signatures in favor of a referendum for federalization of Ukraine and for granting Russian the status of a second state language.

As a result of the tragic events, 46 people died and more than 200 survivors had to turn for medical aid.

"We don't have evidence of the Russian role in […] the tragedy that transpired on Friday," Pyatt said answering the anchor Candy Crowley's downright aggressive question on whether he believed that Russia was behind "this bloodiest day thus far in this back-and-forth [the course of the Ukrainian crisis]".

Pyatt mentioned the blunt accusations towards Russia that the prime minister of the incumbent Kiev government, Arseny Yatsenyuk, had made in Odessa earlier in the day.

"And this is something that we hope an impartial and systematic investigation will be able to get to the bottom of very quickly," he said.

Pyatt indicated that he could not understand clearly why the Friday massacre had taken place.

"[…] having spent some time in Odessa just three weeks ago and spoken with a broad range of political and civil society leaders, there's nothing that I heard and saw while I was in that city which would explain what transpired on Friday night," Pyatt indicated.

"At this point, the whole country is trying to figure out what happened, how to pull together, and how to make sure that those who are trying to divide the country will not be successful," he said.

"Most disturbingly, there seems to be evidence in social media that some of the police in Odessa may have been complicit in allowing the violence to explode out of control way it did," Pyatt said, rushing to praise Yatsenyuk's subsequent actions, as "he's already brought some major changes in the security leadership there in Odessa […]."

He described Ukraine as "a society which is facing extraordinary threats and division."

"But the dominant mood in the country is, how do we end this violence and how do we pull the country together again?" Pyatt claimed.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 05 May 2014 12:24

Virupaksha wrote: ...

Ofcourse democracy, human rights do not come into picture when these power hungry elite work. The question should be why did the west sponsor maidan riots? A democratically elected govt said no to AA of EU and went with the russians. Doesnt a democratically elected govt of a sovereign country have the right to decide so? So these jealous people of west through money, violence and intimidation simply over threw the democratically elected govt and that people of ukraine are revolting against this clique suddenly becomes a russian fault?

That is balderdash of the highest order.

Why couldnt the west accept that ukraine could go back into russian orbit? Why was west playing a zero-sum game and couldnt digest what ukraine was doing was its natural history and people's wishes?
Why did the west have to interfere into the ukranian inner workings and create a coup just because a democratically elected govt decided to reject the EU's agreement?
because the sole aim of the west is and was to destroy russia and ukrainian people are mere collateral damage in that endeavour.

...

I would guess that for a lot of Indian observers including the ones on this thread, the sticking point about the EuroUSAian telling of this tale is the one described above. When it comes down to it, we really couldn't care less how Europeans including Russians arrange their boundaries and settle their quarrels, except that we don't want to see Russia being pushed into a war for obvious reasons. (The boundary-making details may be very TFTA and academically fascinating, but are really no skin off our SDRE Indian noses). And sure, we probably have a bit of a soft corner for Russia because USSR and to a lesser extent Russia supported India's security in a way that EuroUSA didn't. That doesn't mean we somehow want to wish Russia to have as big a territory as possible, or the opposite--for EuroUSAians with global intervention in their DNA it is hard to understand but Indians really believe in non-interference at the core.

That leaves the troubling point for me and probably others: the maidan protests leading to the overthrow of the elected government. It is a big deal for Indians that an elected government is not supposed to be able to make policy decisions that are its by right, instead getting vetoed by a mob of god-knows-what-provenance and what outside support (in point of fact, quite a bit is known about the support anyway). Yes, they can protest, so do Indians, but ultimately, to actually change a policy, they have to either go through the existing elected body, or get organized and take their chances in the next election. Anything else is savagery and mob rule, and is it any wonder that nazis will take advantage of such a situation?

What doesn't go down well for me at least is how EuroUSAians don't seem to care at all that this mob takeover is being fobbed off as legitimate, and its perpetrators welcomed in places like the White House. Inasmuch as functioning electoral democracy anywhere is delicately dependent on civilized restraint by the opposition, and consensus to settle matters through elected bodies and elections, it signals to Indians that anyone starting an anti-government protest in India, with the aim of bringing down the elected government, could receive enthusiastic if unprincipled support from EuroUSAians who might be displeased with Indian sovereign decisions for some reason or the other.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 05 May 2014 12:26

vijaykarthik wrote:
UlanBatori wrote: 5. ..... what exactly are those ground troops for, again?
To distribute lunch boxes (and sweets and cinnamon powder etc) to the starved Ukrainian soldiers. Reckon air drop doesn't work nowadays [Is it because Apple uses that term commercially and balked at the US policymakers suggesting using airdrop to drop lunch boxes? We will never know!]

The US takes its commitment quite seriously and is about to embark on a mission... of distributing lunch boxes. if it means it has to ship them from Poland, so be it. Costs much lesser than shipping from US anyways. In these days of cost cutting...

Our cammie clad ambassadors of goodwill are there for r and r and morale purposes. pay them no attention.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 05 May 2014 14:07

KLNMurthy wrote: Inasmuch as functioning electoral democracy anywhere is delicately dependent on civilized restraint by the opposition, and consensus to settle matters through elected bodies and elections, it signals to Indians that anyone starting an anti-government protest in India, with the aim of bringing down the elected government, could receive enthusiastic if unprincipled support from EuroUSAians who might be displeased with Indian sovereign decisions for some reason or the other.

Like Arvind Kejriwal and Ford / Carnegie foundation

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 May 2014 15:54

US media hysteria:
http://digbysblog.blogspot.in/2014/05/a ... state.html

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 May 2014 17:20

Ukraine lawmakers move to ban St. George Ribbon

Members of the Ukrainian parliament from the right-wing Svoboda party have moved to ban all Russia-associated symbols, including the black-and-orange St. George ribbons adopted by pro-federalization supporters in the country.

The move came just days after a neo-Nazi gang killed scores of pro-referendum protesters in a fire in Odessa.

According to Ukraine's UNIAN news agency, the bill seeks to "outlaw the use of any state symbols of the Russian Federation, unrecognized republics or St. George ribbons, by individuals as well as on official buildings, self-administration buildings, company offices, organizations and institutions, disregarding the form of ownership".

The new draft law stipulates criminal charges against those who violate the ban, described in the bill as "extremism instigators and separatists", not including sports or cultural events outside the protest spectrum.

The St. George's ribbon, formerly a military decoration in the Russian Empire, was first sported in Kiev's Independence Square as a handful of protesters sought to rival the nascent nationalist movement.

Since the coup in February, the ranks of those proud to wear the ornament, associated with valor on the battlefield and the defeat of fascism, have swelled as resistance to the regime has spread east and south across Ukraine.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 May 2014 21:11

http://frallik.livejournal.com/781599.html

It seems many of the victim you see in the pictures in the link above have gun shot wounds ( shot in head ) , strangled ( the old women seen in the photo )

IT seems the right sector stormed the floor shot these people or strangled them before burning the house to cover their trails.

The full length video posted below shows 24 min video pictured from pro-maidan side where you can see not letting police to save the pro-Russians, comments about gas "death to moscals", throwing molotovs at a guy who's escaping from the window

http://youtu.be/11146TW6wWU

Seems those people in building met a gruesome death , Very Sad

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 05 May 2014 21:51

The tactical brilliance shown by these nazi thugs would do the pakis proud. I guess they need to find out the hard way and they will--after Putin takes care of Odessa. No way in hell is he leaving that port to anything other than Russian ships.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 May 2014 01:14

The war is escalating,as the Kiev mafia and their sponsors are hell bent upon destroying the east and their country.40+ are reported from various media sources ,to have been killed in the latest fighting,with UKR forces being ambushed as they move in to try and take Slavyansk.

The Middle Game has ended and the beginning of the End Game seems to be in sight with this report:
Ukraine on 'full combat alert' as president warns threat of Russian invasion 'is real'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 05946.html

Ukraine is on “full combat alert” over a possible invasion by Russian troops gathered at the border as the interim president warned that “the threat of Russia starting a war against mainland Ukraine is real."

Oleksandr Turchynov made the remarks during a ministerial meeting, where he also told regional governors Ukraine’s police and security forces are "helpless" to quell unrest in two eastern regions bordering Russia.

In some cases they are even cooperating with pro-Russian militants who have seized scores of government buildings and taken people hostage, the interim president said today.

Mr Turchynov said the goal now was to prevent the agitation from spreading to other territories.

"I will be frank: today, security forces are unable to quickly take the situation in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions under control," Mr Turchynov told the meeting.

"The security bodies ... are unable to carry out their duties of protecting citizens. They are helpless in those matters. Moreover, some of those units are either helping or cooperating with terrorist organisations."

His comments came as pro-Russian separatists seized control of state buildings in the town of Horlivka, a city in the crisis-torn eastern Ukraine.

Read more: John Kerry 'claims Moscow is running network of spies'

The Horlivka's police headquarters had been stormed by pro-Russian militants earlier in April but separatists took over the police division in town and the government administration on Wednesday.

Eastern Ukraine, with a large Russian-speaking population, was the heartland of support for Viktor Yanukovych, the Russia-friendly president who was ousted in February.

Russia has deployed an estimated 40,000 troops to the border with Ukraine since March.
The Kremlin has always denied plans to build on last month’s annexation of Crimea with an invasion of eastern Ukraine, but has maintained the right to intervene with force if ethnic Russians come under threat.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... -slavyansk
Ukrainian troops clash with pro-Russia militia in gun battles around Slavyansk
• Insurgents 'deploying large-calibre weapons and mortars'
• Pro-Russia fighters report number of fatalities
• Fighting in several sites around eastern city

Ukrainian troops have fought pitched gun battles with a pro-Russia militia occupying an eastern city – an apparent escalation of their efforts to bring the region back under government control.

Associated Press reporters heard gunfire and multiple explosions in and around Slavyansk, a city of 125,000 people that has become the focus of the armed insurgency against the interim government in Kiev.
The Ukrainian interior minister, Arsen Avakov, said on his agency's website that pro-Russia forces were deploying large-calibre weapons and mortars in the region and that there were casualties on both sides.

Government troops were facing about 800 insurgents, he said.

A pro-Russia militia spokesman in Slavyansk said an unspecified number of people had been killed and wounded during the clashes, including a 20-year-old woman who died after being hit by a stray bullet.

Both sides indicated fighting was taking place across the city. An AP crew reported they saw at least four ambulances rushing injured people to a city hospital. At least one militiaman was seen being carried in for medical treatment.

Ukraine is facing its worst crisis in decades as the polarised nation of 46 million tries to decide whether to look towards Europe, as its western regions want to do, or improve ties with Russia, which is favoured by the many Russian-speakers in the east.

Who'd ever think that we'd see these scenes again!
http://rt.com/news/156792-odessa-jews-evacuation-plans/
Buses and armed guards: Odessa Jews ready for mass evacuation
Published time: May 05, 2014

The Jewish community of Odessa is prepared for mass evacuation, should violence re-erupt in the Ukrainian city and threaten to spill over them. Anti-Semitism is a painful issue in Ukraine, with radical nationalism on the rise.

Odessa witnessed several instances of clashes between anti-government and pro-government activists in the past weeks. They culminated in the deaths on Friday of dozens of opponents of the new authorities, most of whom burned to death in a building, besieged by armed radicals, who used Molotov cocktails and firearms in a crackdown on the protester’s camp.

The standoff so far hasn’t touched the Jewish community directly, Odessa Jewish leaders told the Israeli newspaper Jerusalem Post, but they are concerned that this may change. So they have contingency plans for evacuation, possibly out of the country.

“When there is shooting in the streets, the first plan is to take [the children] out of the center of the city,” said Rabbi Refael Kruskal, the head of the Tikva organization. “If it gets worse, then we’ll take them out of the city. We have plans to take them both out of the city and even to a different country if necessary, plans which we prefer not to talk about which we have in place.”

He said he was considering renting a holiday camp to house 600 Jews away from Odessa for the next weekend, considering that Friday marks the anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany. The date polarized society: some people cherish the legacy of Ukrainian nationalists, who collaborated with the Nazis against Russia, while others see it as a symbol of victory over Nazism and by extension the modern-day nationalists.

There are fears of more clashes will come on that date in Ukraine.
“The next weekend is going to be very violent,” Kruskal believes.
Evacuation plans have been prepared by other parts of the Jewish community.

“If the situation gets worse, we are planning to move,” Kira Verkhovskaya, head of the Migdal International Center of Jewish Community Programs, told the Post.

Rabbi Avraham Wolf, representing the Chabad hassidic community, said they are taking extra security measures, such as posting armed guards, and are prepared for a possible evacuation. Together with the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, they have prepared a fleet of 70 buses, fueled and ready to go.

Rabbi Avraham Wolf and UNA-UNSO commander Valery Zagorodny remove anti-Semitic writings. Photo courtesy of the Chabad Odessa Jewish community.

Odessa once had a considerable Jewish minority, with about a third of the city’s population being Jewish. As Nazi Germany and its allies were advancing into Ukraine, many Jews fled east, but hundreds of thousands still remained by the time Odessa was taken by Romanian and German troops.

In mid-October 1941, the occupation forces started mass executions of everyone they deemed enemies, including between 25,000 and 34,000 Odessa Jews. The site of one of the worst massacres, where thousands were shot or burned alive in old gunpowder warehouses, is now a Holocaust memorial.

The memorial was desecrated in mid-April along with a Jewish cemetery, as unidentified attackers painted them with swastikas, death threats against Jews and radical Right Sector symbols. The nationalist movement denied any links to the desecration, offering its protection to Odessa Jews and sending its representative to remove the writings together with Rabbi Wolf.

Anti-Semitism in Ukraine also made the headlines last month after masked people in Donetsk distributed leaflets demanding that all adult Jews registered and paid money to the authorities of the Donetsk People’s Republic, the political body of anti-government protesters in the eastern-Ukrainian region.

Protest leaders decried the leaflet, which was apparently written to resemble orders given to Ukrainian Jews by the Nazi forces, as a crude provocation staged to coincide with the celebration of Pesach by Jewish communities.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 06 May 2014 01:28

You guys expected them not to fight? It's a foregone conclusion. Never fear Russia will prevail because the West won't intervene. But I'll tell you one thing, Russia won't get it cheap. Guaranteed. They'll have to occupy.

Wolverines!

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 06 May 2014 01:34

TSJones wrote:You guys expected them not to fight? It's a foregone conclusion. Never fear Russia will prevail because the West won't intervene. But I'll tell you one thing, Russia won't get it cheap. Guaranteed. They'll have to occupy.

Wolverines!

ofcourse the cost which west will extract is the ukranian lives.