INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 12 May 2014 13:24

Doesn't it look different from the older pic (UPA pic )

the hump seem to be more visible in this pic while the older one didn't show such a hump

can it be the 2nd arihant sub with some modification

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 12 May 2014 14:04

Singha wrote: Will have less top speed than 688 but thats about the only drawback.

Is it possible to compensate the less powerful reactor with fastest fish design? This can be flatter in girth but more height giving more space for longer missiles too:

wig · Post by **wig** » 14 May 2014 08:34

Arihant N-sub gets ready to fire ballistic missiles

Movingcloser towards completing the nuclear triad, the indigenously developednuclear-powered submarine, INS Arihant, will soon be testing its capability tolaunch long range ballistic missiles from within the depths of the ocean.

“We willbe conducting a test launch of the K-4 missile from the Arihant submarine,which is already undergoing sea trials, within the next few months,” ScientificAdviser to the Raksha Mantri and DRDO Director General, Dr Avinash Chander toldThe Tribune during his visit to Chandigarh.

The3,000-km range K-4 Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM) was successfullytest launched by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) froman underwater pontoon, simulating a submerged submarine, on March 24.

Thedevelopment of the K-4 comes in the wake of the K-15 a submarine launchedballistic missile that has a range of 750 kms and is already in production. Aland-based version of the K-15 is also on the anvil.

INSArihant, which will have at least three more sister submarines which arealready under construction, will carry four K-4 missiles or 12 K-15 missilesalong with six torpedoes. Four submarines with unlimited range, each carryingfour 3000-kms range missiles gives an enormous degree of flexibility,reliability, survivability and stand-off attack capability to the nucleartriad.

Alsocoming up shortly is the test launch of the containerised version of the Agni-4Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile. The 4000-kms range missile would beroad-mobile and launched from a contained, from which it would be shot in theair and its engines would ignite in mid air. The conventional version of themissile was test fired by the Strategic Forces Command in its road-mobileconfiguration in January this year, paving its way for serial production andservice induction.

DrChander said that following the successful launch of the Astra beyond visuaklrange air to air missile from a Su-30 fighter earlier this month, a launch totest its performance against a live aerial target will be conducted next month.A test of Hellina, the helicopter launched version of the Nag anti-tankmissile, is also scheduled shortly.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140514/nation.htm#10

amit · Post by **amit** » 14 May 2014 08:59

^^^^^

...which is already undergoing sea trials,...

From the horse's mouth. Has this been reported?

partha · Post by **partha** » 14 May 2014 09:01

amit wrote:^^^^^

...which is already undergoing sea trials,...
From the horse's mouth. Has this been reported?

No sir. Not reported. Last report was in Jan saying it will go on sea trials in a "few weeks or months".

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 601955.ece

India’s first indigenously built nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine, INS Arihant would be going to sea trials within “a few weeks or months” as its preliminary harbour acceptance trials are over and various systems, including nuclear propulsion, have proceeded satisfactorily and as per the time schedule.

amit · Post by **amit** » 14 May 2014 09:08

Hmm, that make me wonder. Was the K4 tested from a submerged platform which happens to weight 6k tons? Any resemblance to any ship, submarine or whales are just coincidental onlee.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 May 2014 09:15

^^ Interesting and could be since IIRC, would be a real risk and loss of face to publicise a first firing from a sub and then turns out that it failed ( god forbid).

Smarter to do it when no one looking and fine tune any chinks. IIRC, they did the same for B-05/K-4 and announced that they had already tested 4-5 times before even acknowledging such a missile.

amit · Post by **amit** » 14 May 2014 09:17

I think you hit the nail Sum ji.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 14 May 2014 13:36

Can the missiles loaded into canisters which is allowed to float at maximum depths and then thru remote control be allowed to fire the missiles?

Wont it give submarines ample time to escape since Submarines would be away at considerable distance at the time of firing?

Or people are so afraid of missile hijack?

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 14 May 2014 14:08

^^

Off course it can be done. That is what they just did.

And how does anybody hijack/target, something like this. If something like this is targetable then the land based part is just plain useless.

But it ain't gonna happen. Don't ask me why.

TIFWIW but contentment and compassion are really helpful when the wishes do not get granted.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 May 2014 14:36

Bob V wrote:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 00/it3.jpg

Did someone miss this ?

Is this what INS Arihant looks like?

John · Post by **John** » 14 May 2014 21:04

ravi_g wrote:Off course it can be done. That is what they just did.

Not possible with standard canister (for test launches it is held on platform not released into the ocean) you basically you need mini submarine that will detach with payload and launch return back to mother ship not a new concept both Russians and America have blueprints of that but you are talking about submarine bigger than Typhoon.

As disussed Arihant has secondary SSGN purpose and it is long speculated that Shaurya missile can be used to target vessels, you can put the two together.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 May 2014 21:15

symontk wrote:Can the missiles loaded into canisters which is allowed to float at maximum depths and then thru remote control be allowed to fire the missiles?

Wont it give submarines ample time to escape since Submarines would be away at considerable distance at the time of firing?

Or people are so afraid of missile hijack?

Why take all this trouble? The sub can fire a missile and then disappear in any direction before anyone has a clue. The ocean is a big place as MH 370 reminded us.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 14 May 2014 23:21

John wrote:
ravi_g wrote:Off course it can be done. That is what they just did.
Not possible with standard canister (for test launches it is held on platform not released into the ocean) you basically you need mini submarine that will detach with payload and launch return back to mother ship not a new concept both Russians and America have blueprints of that but you are talking about submarine bigger than Typhoon.

As disussed Arihant has secondary SSGN purpose and it is long speculated that Shaurya missile can be used to target vessels, you can put the two together.

hai ji???

mini sub firing SLBM and docking back on mothership? what and how? please explain.

partha · Post by **partha** » 15 May 2014 00:02

Aditya_V wrote:
Bob V wrote:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 00/it3.jpg

Did someone miss this ?
Is this what INS Arihant looks like?

Which magazine? Can any one please point to the full article?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 May 2014 04:00

I think the long sea trails for Arihant are to get K4 ready. The situation requires a mixed load of 2 K4s and 6 K15s.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 May 2014 04:02

What is awesome is the tri loading of the tubes with K15 and launch individually!!! Needs a lot of gas generators for each vehicle.
Most likely they have one grain for standardization and vary the water in the laucnh tube. More water for heavier and shallower launches.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 May 2014 12:01

the hull & sail to me looks fatter and meatier than the slim 688 class which it allegedly matches ....

member_28586 · Post by **member_28586** » 15 May 2014 13:44

John wrote:
ravi_g wrote:Off course it can be done. That is what they just did.
Not possible with standard canister (for test launches it is held on platform not released into the ocean) you basically you need mini submarine that will detach with payload and launch return back to mother ship not a new concept both Russians and America have blueprints of that but you are talking about submarine bigger than Typhoon.

As disussed Arihant has secondary SSGN purpose and it is long speculated that Shaurya missile can be used to target vessels, you can put the two together.

^^^
As of now Shaurya's capability is limited to attack land based targets. Shaurya requires some sort of treminal guidance to hit a moving vessel.Possibly an Optical correlator like the one used on DF-21D ASBM.

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 18 May 2014 11:04

KiranM wrote: Philip, regarding .... Russia and Israel, when it has mattered most to India, have come to its rescue showing a hand part gravitating around the center to that old promoter of democracy and "freedom".

Yogi ji, there is no credible information about Brahmos range being in excess of 300km. So lets leave it at that. ... which carry nukes.

It's an open forum.. anyhow B'mos can be used at a range far ahead of mentioned in brochure,say theoretically at 430+ KM. What if it already has been few times..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 May 2014 14:39

Yes,one is sure that the range of BMos can be extended,esp. if a smaller warhead is used.So Russia can "wink,wink,nudge,nudge" ,while officially keeping to MTCR rules. here is an old report of the N-sub facilities being planned/built for our future fleet of SSBNs and SSGNs.

India readies hi-tech naval base to keep eye on China
Rajat Pandit,TNN | Mar 26, 2013,

India readies hi-tech naval base to keep eye on China
India's first nuclear powered submarine INS Chakra emerges out of the Bay of Bengal in Visakhapatnam. After inducting INS Chakra submarine on a 10-year lease from Russia last year, India is now negotiating the lease of another such nuclear-powered Akula-II class submarine.

NEW DELHI: Slowly but steadily, India's new futuristic naval base is beginning to take concrete shape on the eastern seaboard. The strategic base, with an eye firmly on China, will eventually even have underground pens or bunkers to protect nuclear submarines both from spy satellites and enemy air attacks.

Sources said a flurry of discussions and meetings have been held in the PMO and defence ministry over the last couple of months to firm up "expansion plans'' for a base located near Rambilli called "Project Varsha" on the Andhra coast — just about 50 km from the Eastern Naval Command headquarters at Visakhapatnam — over the coming decade.

Though it's still very early days for Project Varsha, some bill it as an answer to China's massive underground nuclear submarine base at Yalong on the southernmost tip of Hainan Island, which houses its new Shang-class SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines) and the Jin-class SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines with long-range nuclear missiles).

Although land acquisitions and incremental development work on the base under the secretive project kicked off a few years ago, it is set to take off in a major way with the construction of tunnels, jetties, depots, workshops and accommodation. "Further land acquisitions for the sprawling base to be spread over 20 sq km are now underway, with long-term budget allocations also being planned,'' said a source.

The endeavour dovetails into the overall policy to bolster force-levels on the eastern seaboard, with new warships, aircraft and spy drones as well as forward-operating (FOBs) and operational turnaround (OTR) bases, to counter China's expanding footprint in the entire Indian Ocean Region (IOR).

Naval assets to protect India's long coastline and keep watch over the crucial trade corridors in the Indian Ocean are essential to Indian interests. The strategic value of force projection beyond the Andaman islands is seen in terms of deterrence as well given the aggressive military Chinese expansion. India's own SSBN programme is also poised to turn the corner soon with sea trials of the 6,000-tonne INS Arihant slated to begin off Visakhapatnam. INS Arihant and its three "follow-on'' SSBNs, which will complete India's elusive nuclear weapon triad since they will be armed with the `K' series of submarine-launched ballistic missiles, as well as other frontline warships will be housed at the new base.

The Navy plans to operate at least three SSBNs and six SSNs in the long run for effective nuclear deterrence. Moreover, after inducting the 8,140-tonne INS Chakra submarine on a 10-year lease from Russia last year, India is now negotiating the lease of another such nuclear-powered Akula-II class submarine, as was earlier reported by TOI.

Project Varsha's ambitious scale in the years ahead will rival the expansive "Project Seabird'' under which the Karwar naval base has come up in coastal Karnataka to give India both strategic depth and operational flexibility on the western seaboard against Pakistan. While Karwar will decongest the over-crowded Mumbai port, the new base will do the same for Vizag on the east.

Karwar can currently base 11 major warships and 10 yard-craft after completion of its Phase-I at a cost of Rs 2,629 crore. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had last year approved Rs 13,000 crore for its expansion under Phase-IIA to ensure it can berth 32 major warships and submarines by 2018-19.

Karwar will be the home base for aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, the 44,570-tonne Admiral Gorshkov being refitted in Russia for $2.33 billion, as well as the six French Scorpene submarines being built at Mazagon Docks for Rs 23,562 crore.

There was a recent Top Gear episode,where they drove into an old CWar N-sub base in the Crimea.It gives a fascinating inside view of what an N-sub base looks like.
Here is a great page with a collage of multiple pics of warships,subs,sub pens,etc.,many of IN assets too.

https://www.google.co.in/search?q=russi ... B690%3B388

John · Post by **John** » 18 May 2014 21:45

VarunS wrote:s of now Shaurya's capability is limited to attack land based targets. Shaurya requires some sort of treminal guidance to hit a moving vessel.Possibly an Optical correlator like the one used on DF-21D ASBM.

It can be fitted with same active seeker and on board guidance system as Brahmos while scaling down the payload.

Any Ashm range can be extended by reducing the terminal phase but that would increase greatly probability of it being shot down.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 May 2014 23:05

They can probably use the seeker from ABM types as well . Only thing is the trajectory of the shaurya , can it be a skimmer in terminal phase? Otherwise ship defences could see/track it at higher altitude s and probably shoot it down

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 May 2014 02:03

I was wondering if PLAN ships arriving in Vizag have any ulterior motive to snoop around the Nuclear sub building vicinity.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 19 May 2014 02:04

Jhujar wrote:I was wondering if PLAN ships arriving in Vizag have any ulterior motive to snoop around the Nuclear sub building vicinity.

Nah! they're just taking a wok on the wild side.

John · Post by **John** » 19 May 2014 21:17

Cain Marko wrote:They can probably use the seeker from ABM types as well . Only thing is the trajectory of the shaurya , can it be a skimmer in terminal phase? Otherwise ship defences could see/track it at higher altitude s and probably shoot it down

At those speeds it certainly can't be skimmer and i doubt it would have any fuel in terminal phase to do any maneuvering like Ashm. It can function similar to DF21 and unlike the latter can be sub launched in large numbers to overwhelm any defense around PLAN AC.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 May 2014 02:07

But you bet that they'll take pics of every sq. cm! The ongoing prosecution of Chinese hackers in the US should be a lesson for everyone.Never underestimate the Chinese,they're like soldier ants.Relentless in their advance and pursuit.Fire is needed to destroy them.However,our new N-sub base is supposedly coming up elsewhere on the east coast and will be away from prying eyes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jun 2014 07:00

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 079477.ece

Earlier this year, India’s first indigenously built nuclear submarine quietly pushed out of its base for sea trials, its 6,000-tonne, 111-metre bulk powered by an 83-megawatt uranium reactor. The submarine is capable of lurking effectively undetectable at depth almost indefinitely, as long as there is food for its 110-man crew. In early 2015, if all goes well, INS Arihant will get the nuclear missiles it is designed to carry.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jun 2014 08:21

^from the article's note on headache, the khans have moved much ahead.. infact it is for the good of all P nations to have a common data grid for under water comms. better for MAD doctrine to have handshakes and better comms than accidental launches.

just for reference, read this article: http://www.economist.com/news/technolog ... es-aquatic

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jun 2014 18:30

Wonder if this is true:
Contrary to Claims, Arihant not Prepared for Sea Trials

Contrary to claims, India’s first indigenous nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant is still not ready for sea trails, a stage critical for testing the vessel’s systems and weapons before it can be commissioned into the Navy.

Arihant’s miniaturised nuclear reactor, built with Russian help, had gone critical in last August and since then the 6,000-tonne vessel has been put through a series of harbour acceptance trials, which could take a few more months, according to top navy sources here.

The vessel, powered by a 83-MW pressurised light-water reactor operated with enriched uranium fuel, was to sail out for sea trials earlier this year, but the Navy has not been able to take the vessel out, as more tests are being conducted to ensure foolproof sea trials of all systems on board, sources said.

member_27164 · Post by **member_27164** » 18 Jun 2014 19:43

^^ the title is misleading.

as more tests are being conducted to ensure foolproof sea trials of all systems on board, sources said.

this statement means they are checking each and every system (may be again and again). maybe they are running extra test cases on the sub than necessary. this does not mean arihant is "not ready". i would rather say they are doing extra pinup to avoid any possible wardrobe malfunction

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2014 22:55

Its five years to the month since the Arihant was launched still no open sea trials.

May be DRDO will come up with a missile with sufficient range such that it never needs to leave the harbor.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 06:22

News about the Arihant is so cagey that we really can't tell what is right and what is not. But then again evry single military deal in India has had two sets of opposite news items published. At least some of this is deliberate. Some may be lifafa.

srin · Post by **srin** » 19 Jun 2014 09:21

Somewhere, there are Navy and DRDO guys laughing their butts off on how things get leaked and reported. Just by going by two recent articles, there is no chance that both of them can be right. This disinformation looks deliberate to me.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Jun 2014 09:38

Even if, the leak is deliberate. I would still wish the navy and the DRDO to be as cautious as it for them to be humanly possible. Cause I shudder to think, what would the reactions will be if she suffers any accident. While undergoing sea trials.

So let them take as much time as they can, in order to as sure as they can.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2014 09:51

Pratyush wrote:Even if, the leak is deliberate. I would still wish the navy and the DRDO to be as cautious as it for them to be humanly possible. Cause I shudder to think, what would the reactions will be if she suffers any accident. While undergoing sea trials.

So let them take as much time as they can, in order to as sure as they can.

Pratyush I would not worry. Every time a sailor handles a live shell or missile or torpedo, every time an IAF technician loads a missile or a bomb and a pilot flies the aircraft and then has to land it without using the munition there is a huge risk. We simply worry about the Arihant because it is our new baby - but our folks are dealing with deadly stuff day in and day out. We need to trust them to do that well as they have done for decades.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 19 Jun 2014 19:23

INS Arihant to testfire BO-5 missiles in sea trials: DRDO

Arihant is going through the power-up cycle (in its nuclear reactor). It is the first time that we are doing the power-up cycle on a nuclear submarine. So, we are very cautious and going step by step. It will take a month or two more before it goes to the sea (for trials),

DRDO chief Avinash Chander told PTI.

During the trial phase, the Arihant will testfire the fully-developed BO-5 missile as part of the sea trials,

he said.

-Ankit

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Jun 2014 19:25

ramana wrote:May be DRDO will come up with a missile with sufficient range such that it never needs to leave the harbor.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 19 Jun 2014 19:28

srin wrote:Somewhere, there are Navy and DRDO guys laughing their butts off on how things get leaked and reported. Just by going by two recent articles, there is no chance that both of them can be right. This disinformation looks deliberate to me.

Does not have to be deliberate. PTI can transform facts into gibberish without blinking.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Jun 2014 23:24

An interesting report on Russia's latest N-sub.It would be interesting to see what tech innovations in the sub have similarly been designed for the Arihant..

Russia's top-secret nuclear submarine comes into service
June 18, 2014 Alexander Korolkov, specially for RIR
The Severodvinsk, a new Project-885 Yasen-class multi-purpose nuclear submarine came into service with the Russian Navy on June
New education e-magazine looks to make teaching trend
Russia's top-secret nuclear submarine comes into service
Crew members of the first Project 885 K-560 Yasen/Severodvinsk class submarine watch flag-raising ceremony aboard the submarine moored near the Sevmash nuclear submarine shipyard in Severodvinsk. Source: RIA Novosti

The creation of the Severodvinsk nuclear submarine should have become a revolution for the Soviet submarine fleet but on account of economic problems in the 1990s, the project was on cold-storage. The key feature of the Yasen-class submarine, which still remains to be one of the top-secret projects in the Russian defence industry, is its universality, previously unachievable either by its Russian predecessors or foreign equivalents.

Focus on universality

By the time design work on the Severodvinsk was finished in 1991, it marked a new era in Russian submarine construction. Unlike in the USA, where from the moment its nuclear submarine fleet came into being there was a drive towards uniformity, in the USSR there were many submarines created under different projects, which were difficult to unify and whose functions often overlapped.

June 15, 2010. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev (center) at the Sevmash shipyard, before the ceremonial launching of the Severodvinsk multi-purpose submarine. Source: Vladimir Rodionov / RIA Novosti

That practice had to be abandoned when a fourth-generation submarine began to be developed in 1977. A decision was taken to give up narrow combat specialization, which meant that the new nuclear submarine had to be equally good in hitting underwater and surface targets as well as in launching cruise missiles against ground targets, in other words it had to be able to address practically any tasks facing the submarine fleet.

To achieve that goal, Russian submarine designers made use of original engineering solutions. It was decided that Yasen-class submarines would not have a double-hull structure that all Soviet submarines had at the time. However, it did not become a single-hull submarine like its U.S. equivalents either. Two hulls ensure a submarine's reliability and buoyancy, while a single hull means noiselessness and invisibility. Yasen became something in-between, having the so-called “one and a half hull” architecture, with a light hull covering only part of the submarine's pressure hull. Another traditional feature of Soviet submarine design that was not implemented in the Yasen-class submarine was the location of its torpedo tubes in the bow. That was where the submarine's powerful sonar system Irtysh was based, so there was simply no space left for torpedoes. So the torpedo tubes were placed in the middle section of the submarine at an angle to the centreline. Thus, the Yasen borrowed a construction solution widely used in the USA.

New Russian attack sub to have advanced sensors
Granat vs Tomahawk

The submarine's main weapon will be the 3M55 Oniks (Yakhont) supersonic anti-ship missile with a range of up to 350 km. A multiple launch of 24 of these missiles could present a serious problem even for a U.S. carrier force with a powerful air defence system.

Yasen-class submarines will also be equipped with the Russian equivalent of the U.S. Tomahawk missile, the Granat, which has a firing range of up to 3,000 km and, just like its U.S. counterpart, can have a nuclear warhead. In addition, the new submarine will have 3M14 Kalibr missiles, with a firing range of over 500 km, enabling Project-885 submarines to carry out massive high-precision strikes against ground targets.

Through its torpedo tubes, the submarine will be able to launch 3M54 Biryuza anti-ship missiles and 91R antisubmarine missiles as well as drop mines. As part of its self-defence capability, the Severodvinsk will have special devices for shooting down various decoys and, possibly, a system of active anti-torpedo defence, capable of destroying enemy torpedoes with special small-size anti-torpedoes.

In his book ‘Cold War Submarines,’ famous American naval analyst Norman Polmar ended the chapter on the latest U.S. and Soviet nuclear submarine projects by concluding that there was a lot of evidence to support the view that Soviet fourth-generation submarines had reached a level in many aspects equal to or surpassing that of their American rivals.

The U.S. equivalents of the Yasen-class submarines are multi-purpose Seawolf-class and Virginia-class submarines, although Yasen is intended for a broader range of tasks. Here is how Russian military expert Igor Korotchenko lists the tasks facing the new submarine: “First, to follow the USA's Ohio-class strategic missile submarines. Also, possibly, to carry out combat patrols in regions where the Russian Navy wants to prevent the presence of foreign submarines. At the same time, Yasen-class submarines can launch cruise missiles against ground targets, including in the course of local conflicts in those regions where deploying a permanent Russian Ground Troops force is unfeasible.”