Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 May 2014 04:01

RamaY wrote:
matrimc wrote:hanks for making a point which I had in my mind but could not put into words. The real thing yo would be to cleanup, stop any new construction, and if possible renovate without losing the architectural value and quaintness - in essence a Varanasi which Adi Shankara would have roamed or even older history from maha Bharatha time. We should feel the hoary history of the place. It is not an ordinary city.
+1

I remember seeing a pic on twitter saying it is a village in Gujarat. They paved the old/narrow road with bricks leaving the original houses on both sides of the road. It is how the historical structures of Varanasi can be protected.

Once they clean the river & Ghats the river front will look completely different. Add some strategic lighting and open theaters for cultural/religious shows/dramas/programs you will capture the imagination of pilgrims/tourists alike.

They can develop a new river front project on the other side of the river and progressively relocate the native population. The vacated areas in old city then can be converted into art/yoga/vedic-gurukulas making Varanasi the spiritual/intellectual capital of India/world again.

At some point the eyesore of Gnanavapi mosque need to be resolved. I hope Indian Muslims show their magnanimity & patriotism for this bigger cause.

Thank you. This attitude of bulldozing history and experience for so called modernity is very Communist and KSA in nature. There is enough room for that in India. Retain our unique culture. The narrow roads where only a seeker can go with a few cows is also India. Why should all roads be accessible to all. Let us keep our old cities and monuments and build around them.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 22 May 2014 04:05

[youtube]qYBZckhZkR0#t=2460[/youtube]

Shankar Singh vaghela says NaMO washed clothes at a Vakil's house, now will clean dirt of the nation
43:00 onwards, NIA has caught the Patna bombers and were from SIMI and NM was the primary target
Rajat Sharma says he asked NM about him getting saved, NM replied Devik kripa.
Need to give real thrashing to anti nationals and their supporters like Nitish

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 May 2014 05:03

There is some sort of Memorial to Rajiv at Sriperumbatur. I have seen it.
NM may have very strong will power but some times situations do over whelm any type of person. He may get emotional like any other common person at times because he is an ultimate common man unlike many of us who born and live privileged life.
Let us not elevate him to the level of god. If we do, we are making the mistake we made with that idiot Nehru and even with Atalji. NM will do great things for the nation. Of that we can be sure. But he will also disappoint us in some matters. Of that we can be sure also. You can also be sure he disappoint us because of his ideas, priorities and information is different from us and not because he do not like or against our ideas like a grand temple in Ayodhya.
I wonder if many of us here know how many pracharaks in RSS live. They will go to the houses of their supporters for food daily. Basically begging. NM lived this life for decades. Did he have money to tour India for years? No. He toured India live any other sanyasi did taking food from the kind people of the society. This kind of life changes a person. Just extend your hand for food in front of a stranger and see how it feels. He do not feel it bad thing to ask for Daan. I remember his saying that in public about how he collected election funds by openly asking for donations.
Many people like NM end up as Sanyasis and do good work. There are ten of thousands NMs in Sangh itself and society who are doing great work in organizations like Varanasi Kalyan yojana etc most of their life. Most of them lack capabilities of NM but have same kind of commitment to the nation. We will never hear their names nor will. Our nation served by such great children for thousands of years. In this election itself thousands have worked with no desire for any reward or recognition. Is this win not result of all those thousands of workers? It is.
NM is one among them who just given a greater responsibility by the nation. He will do all he can to discharge this responsibility. If he gets emotional on the occasion of getting such responsibility, so be it.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 22 May 2014 05:19

Excellent Narayana rao ji

namaste sadā vatsale mātṛbhūme
tvayā hindubhūme sukhaṁ vardhitoham
mahāmaṅgale puṇyabhūme tvadarthe
patatveṣa kāyo namaste namaste ||

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 May 2014 06:16

SwamyG wrote:..You accuse me of supporting MSM? heights...

you are now twisting an appreciation to an accusation with delight!

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 22 May 2014 07:44

How Modi defeated liberals like me

What secularism did was it enforced oppositions in a way that the middle class felt apologetic and unconfident about its beliefs, its perspectives. Secularism was portrayed as an upwardly mobile, drawing room discourse they were inept at

On May 17, Narendra Modi revisited Varanasi to witness a pooja performed at the Kashi Vishwanath temple. After the ritual at the temple, he moved to Dashashwamedh ghat where an aarti was performed along the river. The aarti was more than a spectacle. As a ritual, it echoed the great traditions of a city, as a performance it was riveting. As the event was relayed on TV, people messaged requesting that the event be shown in full, without commentary. Others claimed that this was the first time such a ritual was shown openly. With Mr. Modi around, the message claimed “We don’t need to be ashamed of our religion. This could not have happened earlier.”

At first the message irritated me and then made me thoughtful. A colleague of mine added, “You English speaking secularists have been utterly coercive, making the majority feel ashamed of what was natural.” The comment, though brutal and devastating, was fair. I realised at that moment that liberals like myself may be guilty of something deeper.

At the same time moment, some Leftists were downloading a complete set of National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT) textbooks fearing that the advent of Mr. Modi may lead to the withdrawal of these books. The panic of some academics made them sound paranoid and brittle, positing a period of McCarthyism in India. It also brought into mind that both Right and Left have appealed to the state to determine what was correct history. With the advent of the Right, there is now a feeling that history will become another revolving door regime where the official and statist masquerade as the truth.

Secularism as a weapon

I am raising both sets of fear to understand why Left liberals failed to understand this election. Mr. Modi understood the anxieties of the middle class more acutely than the intellectuals. The Left intellectuals and their liberal siblings behaved as a club, snobbish about secularism, treating religion not as a way of life but as a superstition. It was this same group that tried to inject the idea of the scientific temper into the constitutions as if it would create immunity against religious fears and superstitions. By overemphasising secularism, they created an empty domain, a coercive milieu where ordinary people practising religion were seen as lesser orders of being.

Secularism became a form of political correctness but sadly, in electoral India it became an invidious weapon. The regime used to placate minorities electorally, violating the majoritarian sense of fairness. In the choice between the parochialism of ethnicity and the secularism of citizenship, they veered toward ethnicity. It was a strange struggle between secularism as a form of piety or political correctness and people’s sense of religiosity, of the cosmic way religion impregnated the everydayness of their lives. The majority felt coerced by secular correctness which they saw either as empty or meaningless. Yet, they correctly felt that their syncretism was a better answer than secularism. Secularism gave one three options. The first was the separation from Church and State. This separation meant an equal distance from all religions or equal involvement in all religions. There was a sense that the constitution could uphold the first but as civilisations, as communities we were syncretic and conversational. One did not need a parliament of religions to be dialogic. Indian religions were perpetually dialogic. The dialogue of medical systems where practitioners compared their theologies, their theories and their therapies was one outstanding and constructive example.

There was a secondary separation between science and religion in the secular discourse. Yet oddly, it was Christianity that was continuously at odds with science while the great religions were always open to the sciences. Even this created a form of coerciveness, where even scientists open to religion or ritual were asked to distance themselves from it. The fuss made about a scientist coming to office after Rahukalam or even discouraging them from associating themselves with a godman like Sai Baba was like a tantrum. There is a sense of snobbery and poetry but more, there is an illiteracy here because religion, especially Christianity shaped the cosmologies of science. In many ways, Ecology is an attempt to reshape and reinvent that legacy.

Tapping into a ‘repression’

What secularism did was it enforced oppositions in a way that the middle class felt apologetic and unconfident about its beliefs, its perspectives. Secularism was portrayed as an upwardly mobile, drawing room discourse they were inept at. Secularism thus became a repression of the middle class. For the secularist, religion per se was taboo, permissible only when taught in a liberal arts or humanities class as poetry or metaphor. The secularist misunderstood religion and by creating a scientific piety, equated the religious with the communal. At one stroke a whole majority became ill at ease within its world views.

Narendra Modi sensed this unease, showed it was alienating and nursed that alienation. He turned the tables by showing secularism — rather than being a piety or a propriety — was a hypocrisy, or was becoming a staged unfairness which treated minority violations as superior to majoritarian prejudices. He showed that liberal secularism had become an Orwellian club where some prejudices were more equal than others. As the catchment area of the sullen, the coerced, and the repressed became huge, he had a middle class ready to battle the snobbery of the second rate Nehruvian elite. One sensitive case was conversion. The activism of Hindutva groups was treated as sinister but the fundamentalism of other religions was often treated as benign and as a minoritarian privilege. There was a failure of objectivity and fairness and the infelicitous term pseudo-secularism acquired a potency of its own.

While secularism was a modern theory, it was impatient in understanding the processes of being modern. Ours is a society where religion is simultaneously cosmology, ecology, ritual and metaphor. Most of us think and breathe through it. I remember a time when the epidemics of Ganesha statues were drinking milk. Hundreds of believers went to watch the phenomena and came away convinced. I remember talking to an office colleague who returned thrilled at what she had seen. I laughed cynically. She looked quietly and said, “I believe, I have faith, I saw it. You have no faith so why should the Murti talk to you.” I realised that she felt that I was deprived. She added that the mahant of a temple where the statue had not drank milk had gone into exile and meditation to make up for his inadequacy. I realised at that moment that a lecture on hygroscopy or capillary action (the scientific explanations) would have been inadequate. I could not call her illiterate or superstitious. It was a struggle about different meanings, a juxtaposition of world views where she felt her religion gave her a meaning that my science could not. I was reminded that the great Danish physicist, Niels Bohr had a horseshoe nailed to his door. When Bohr was questioned about it, he commented that it won’t hurt to be there. Bohr had created a Pascalian Wager, content that if the horseshoe brought luck it was a good wager, but equally content that if it was inert it did no harm. I wish I had replied in a similar form to my friend.

For a pluralism of encounters

I realise that in many places in Europe, there has been a disenchantment with religion. I have seen beautiful churches in Holland become post offices as the church confronted a sheer lack of attendance. But India faces no such problem and we have to be careful about transplanting mechanical histories.

Ours is a different culture and it has responded to religion, myth and ritual. The beauty of our science Congress is that it resembles a miniature Kumbh Mela. But more, our religions have never been against science and our state has to work a more pluralistic understanding of these encounters. Secularism cannot be empty space. It has to create a pluralism of encounters and allow for levels of reality and interpretation. Tolerance is a weak form of secularism. In confronting the election, we have to reinvent secularism not as an apologetic or disciplinary space but as a playful dialogue. Only then can we offer an alternative to the resentments that Mr. Modi has thrived on and mobilised. I take hope in the words of one of my favourite scientists, the Dalai Lama. When George Bush was waxing eloquent about Muslims, the Dalai Lama commented on George Bush by saying, “He brings out the Muslim in me.” I think that captures my secular ethic brilliantly and one hopes such insights become a part of our contentious democracy.

(Shiv Visvanathan is a professor at Jindal School of Government and Public Policy.)

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 22 May 2014 08:05

^^^^
One almost hopes that he opened his eyes with these following quotes:

While secularism was a modern theory, it was impatient in understanding the processes of being modern. Ours is a society where religion is simultaneously cosmology, ecology, ritual and metaphor.

There was a secondary separation between science and religion in the secular discourse. Yet oddly, it was Christianity that was continuously at odds with science while the great religions were always open to the sciences. Even this created a form of coerciveness, where even scientists open to religion or ritual were asked to distance themselves from it. The fuss made about a scientist coming to office after Rahukalam or even discouraging them from associating themselves with a godman like Sai Baba was like a tantrum.

Then he comes up with an accurate assessment that this was a beating delivered to the elites by the Hindu Lumpenproletariat (to use complex post mordern lit. words).

As the catchment area of the sullen, the coerced, and the repressed became huge, he had a middle class ready to battle the snobbery of the second rate Nehruvian elite. One sensitive case was conversion. The activism of Hindutva groups was treated as sinister but the fundamentalism of other religions was often treated as benign and as a minoritarian privilege. There was a failure of objectivity and fairness and the infelicitous term pseudo-secularism acquired a potency of its own.

But then he looses his chain of thought with the following:

In confronting the election, we have to reinvent secularism not as an apologetic or disciplinary space but as a playful dialogue. Only then can we offer an alternative to the resentments that Mr. Modi has thrived on and mobilised. I take hope in the words of one of my favourite scientists, the Dalai Lama. When George Bush was waxing eloquent about Muslims, the Dalai Lama commented on George Bush by saying, “He brings out the Muslim in me.” I think that captures my secular ethic brilliantly and one hopes such insights become a part of our contentious democracy.

The issue is not being secular, in the true sense of the word. The issue is that the abrahamic religions are in effect weapons against a secular, pluralistic society. Abrahamic religions were BORN in the destruction of pagan idol worshiping and fundamentally secular societies. We are dealing with psychological warfare and hence if you want to be secular and inclusive of these religions in the crucible of a larger polytheist idol worshiping and forgiving religion such as Hinduism, you need something more powerful than secularism to maintain harmony.

As long as the so called post mordern secular scholars dont have answers, the lumpen Hindus themselves have come up with one, and that is Mr. Modi and the self identification of the state of "being a Hindu" aka Hindutva.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 22 May 2014 08:10

vivek.rao wrote:Please read this:
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... ardas-modi

Modi wave was not created by RSS or VHP. In the end RSS was able to execute it.

Modi and his team planned and worked like dogs to created it.

PAPPU helped it greatly with his interviews and rallies.

May be Modi is ITALIAN agent and hence ITALIANS sent PAPPU to make Modi win

1. Who paid the paidmedia to cover NaMo?

2. Who paid paidmedia not to demand debate between AK and NaMo

3. Who paid paidmeda not to raise gas price issue?

I have posted many things which paidmedia did and paidmedia didnt do. Nothing of that is organic. While AK is 100% paidmedia creation, the list of media activities in past 6 months show that huge portion of NaMo's campaign was based on paidmedia and its favor.

Since april-2011, we have been seeing paidmedia show -- Team Anna, then AK and then grand NaMo show. Whether it is AK's paidmedia campaign or NaMo's paidmedia campaign ---- time has come for us voters to pay the bill. Lets see what decisions new govt takes in next 6 months. That will tell us how much we need to pay for this paid media coverage.

===

NaMo's crying during speech was 100% artificial. I wonder how so many people got fooled into believing that it was natural. It is also because of utter hopeless state of affairs of nation, and people are not seeing any way out, and so they are becoming emotionally attached to whatever that is projected as the solution.

====

vishant chaudhary wrote: Rahul mehta je i posted this in ur other tread but u seem to forget that thread so here it is

I will reply there soon.

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 May 2014 08:30

Rahul Mehta wrote:NaMo's crying during speech was 100% artificial. I wonder how so many people got fooled into believing that it was natural. It is also because of utter hopeless state of affairs of nation, and people are not seeing any way out, and so they are becoming emotionally attached to whatever that is projected as the solution.

the Mehta, you may be 100% correct, but imagine what we had before. That is why people cried. People are used to being made fools, but atleast let us be made fools of by capable people.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 22 May 2014 08:39

so now it has come down to his crying, nothing worked , so start analyzing whether his crying was fake or real

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 May 2014 08:41

Many across the world, including the US, hoping to learn hugely from the phenomenal campaign run by Modi: What GOP can learn from Modi's election

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 May 2014 09:12

habal wrote:
Rahul Mehta wrote:NaMo's crying during speech was 100% artificial. I wonder how so many people got fooled into believing that it was natural. It is also because of utter hopeless state of affairs of nation, and people are not seeing any way out, and so they are becoming emotionally attached to whatever that is projected as the solution.
the Mehta, you may be 100% correct, but imagine what we had before. That is why people cried. People are used to being made fools, but atleast let us be made fools of by capable people.

He had more to lose from that, than gain. Strongman cries is not respected in many circles. Let us not go crazy. You may be right in some ways but this theory is bizarre

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 May 2014 09:15

There is a huge lessons for many nationalistic forces and leaders across the world particularly in the eastern world. I would not be surprised if few dozens of people soon doing Phd on this election from world top universities.

niran · Post by **niran** » 22 May 2014 09:17

Rahul Mehta wrote:NaMo's crying during speech was 100% artificial. I wonder how so many people got fooled into believing that it was natural. It is also because of utter hopeless state of affairs of nation, and people are not seeing any way out, and so they are becoming emotionally attached to whatever that is projected as the solution.

so it has come down to this! anal-e-lysing tears, never thought it would come to this here at BRF,
Mehtaji let NaMo form the gobermound first then let him work the people has given him a mandate to govern for 5 years and i don't think
NaMo is a fool who will try a woo people with tears, real or fake notwithstanding.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 22 May 2014 09:24

amma miffed at invitation to SL for swearing in ceremony, may skip the function.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 May 2014 09:30

Nah! she has to please her electorate.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 22 May 2014 09:32

x-post. I think Modi made an unforced error with his SAARC HoG photo op invite. Rajapakse attending the swearing in may force TN party leaders to boycott it. TN BJP is now scrambling. He could have done this SAARC thing after swearing in. Its going to lead to a bad start with TN politics.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 22 May 2014 09:35

krishnan wrote:amma miffed at invitation to SL for swearing in ceremony, may skip the function.

Not just amma, all TN NDA partners are now forced to take a stand.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... epage=true

BJP’s TN allies oppose Rajapaksa visit

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 May 2014 09:37

He probably took this into account - and came to the conclusion that the benefits outweighed the negatives.

He has already conquered India - he's setting his sights on the neighborhood now.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 22 May 2014 09:38

sivab wrote:x-post. I think Modi made an unforced error with his SAARC HoG photo op invite. Rajapakse attending the swearing in may force TN party leaders to boycott it. TN BJP is now scrambling. He could have done this SAARC thing after swearing in. Its going to lead to a bad start with TN politics.

This should have been best avoided and Modi should have foreseen issues with invitation to Pakistan and Sri Lanka. Should have separately invited Nepal, Afghanistan, Bhutan and Burma.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 22 May 2014 09:44

{Deleted. If you don't like a poster's viewpoint and cannot debate the matter constructively, just add him to your ignore list}

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 22 May 2014 09:45

na-waz is coming to india to take man mohan back to his village.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 22 May 2014 09:46

I guess NM is just testing the waters. Make some calculated moves, watch out for reactions from various quarters; so that long term plans can be made accordingly

.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 22 May 2014 09:47

It is normal for people at high places

https://www.google.co.in/#q=obama+breaks+down+in+tears

https://www.google.co.in/#q=putin+breaks+down+in+tears

***

2. Who paid paidmedia not to demand debate between AK and NaMo

AK Who? Uski aukad kya hai?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 22 May 2014 09:47

amdavadi wrote:na-waz is coming to india to take man mohan back to his village.

PA thinks hes much better at being a puppet than Nawaz.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 22 May 2014 09:48

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/pa ... 33983.html

Pak PM Nawaz Sharif likely to attend Narendra Modi's oath taking ceremony

Now what, is he going to serve chicken biriyani? While pukes are killing our soldiers/citizens. Now the media will make this into a SAARC circus.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 22 May 2014 09:52

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 May 2014 09:53

sivab wrote:http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/pa ... 33983.html

Pak PM Nawaz Sharif likely to attend Narendra Modi's oath taking ceremony

Now what, is he going to serve chicken biriyani? While pukes are killing our soldiers/citizens. Now the media will make this into a SAARC circus.

No chicken biryani sir. only pure veg stuff. Like, dhokla perhaps. And some plainspeak should they meet on the sidelines of the conference (which can later be leaked on youtube).

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 22 May 2014 09:54

The TN - Srilanka politics is something very embarrassing

I see huge traffic of tamils and sinhalese btn colombo and chennai airports. especially the tamil biz guys visiting colombo.

There are many tamil business houses and sundry businessmen who are doing brisk business day-in day-out.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 May 2014 09:56

^^If NM can get SL to address genuine concerns of SL Tams - harassed, displaced and impoverished - nothing like it. I see no reason why Rajapakse can't agree to reasonable confidence building measures that can be launched soon, on this score.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 22 May 2014 09:57

This SAARC thing is a bad move. Too early a thing to try at this stage. Don't know if they really thought through the chain of events such an invitation will trigger.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 22 May 2014 10:02

It is never too early to size up your enemy.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 22 May 2014 10:04

Three/four SAARC countries won't mind bettering ties would be

Afghanistan
Srilanka
Bhutan
Nepal

It is a right move. State politics should not come in way of international relations, especially when they are slated for improvement

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 22 May 2014 10:04

amdavadi wrote:It is never too early to size up your enemy.

People forget
Keep your friends close, enemies closer

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 May 2014 10:08

Murugan wrote:Three/four SAARC countries won't mind bettering ties would be

Afghanistan
Srilanka
Bhutan
Nepal

It is a right move. State politics should not come in way of international relations, especially when they are slated for improvement

State politics and state grievances are different from national level engagement

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 May 2014 10:12

whether one likes it or not Rajapaksa type 'strongmen' are the reality in SL and tamils have no charismatic leader there to provide a counterweight. its better we get into economic and military deep ties with SL and make it profitable for their elites to be on good terms with india. that will moderate their dealings with SL tamils. india should be able to invest heavily in what is our backyard.

sickular symbolic style appeasing of TN local sentiment is not able to achieve any lasting soln except driving the SL elites closer to Cheen and TSP.

some of their elites may be SOBs but we got to engage and make them 'our SOBs' just as america maintains 'guangxi' with a whole lot of grey characters around the world for its national interest.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 22 May 2014 10:23

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/naren ... 76141.html

Narendra Modi slams UPA’s ‘biryani’ foreign policy
"Heads of our soldiers are cut but then their Prime Minister is fed chicken biryani,"

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 22 May 2014 10:28

^Thank heavens there are people like you to remind us of our dead soldiers. Without you, we will all forget about their sacrifices. Hail thee oh great keeper of our conscience and protector of patriotism. /sarc off

If you knew ANYTHING about Mr. Modi's history, you wouldn't be dhoti shivering like this. Pathetic.

member_28025 · Post by **member_28025** » 22 May 2014 10:37

Hari Seldon wrote: No chicken biryani sir. only pure veg stuff. Like, dhokla perhaps. And some plainspeak should they meet on the sidelines of the conference (which can later be leaked on youtube).

You are right Saar. Only vegetarian food. I am so happy.

And while the food at the swearing in ceremony is unlikely to be entirely Gujarati, it will certainly be entirely vegetarian.

"Arrangements are being made for 3,000 guests and a vegetarian high tea. The refreshments, including sandwiches and pastries, for VIPs will be served at the forecourt, while VVIPs will be ushered to a room inside the building," The Indian Express said.

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/from- ... 36869.html

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 May 2014 10:44

India is THE TOP DOG in this area of the world. Its neighbors of invited to pay homage to the new leader of India. That is all. That is the message. It is just like Paki invitation to NM. Paki leader who visits India will be paying homage to India democracy which they do not have at their nation. He will be attending for oath taking of a Hindu leader becoming the Ruler of Hindu nation while his nation is begging before Khan for dollars on daily basis. Further his attendance to a leaders oath taking ceremony who talk of Pappy will be very difficult for Islamic rulers.