Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[A_Gupta]

^^^^ Hahaha, Shiv, our ancestors solved the problem of textual fundamentalism by providing a text which no one can really claim to understand!

[Agnimitra]

I'm completely fascinated by this subject and had requested KLPD to give us some insight into his thinking on this earlier...

>>The sounds are eternal, and are not the product of any agency whether human or divine.

So are you suggesting that the sounds would exist whether or not humans exist, and that humans have taken these sounds and joined them into syllables and words to give "meaning" to things?

Here's what Patanjali's Mahabhashya says about the Indian concept of "grammar" and the soundsream of the Veda -

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1348762

After grammar comes meaning, etc. Thus, "meanings" are a very high-level programming. Vedas are very "assembly" level. Hearing Vea has more to do with peripheral hearing (like listening to birdsong) than processing "meanings" of "words" - which are themselves built on grammatical constructions.

[JE Menon]

Thanks Agnimitra.

[KLP Dubey]

So as I hear it (same as a yak hearing Lata Mangeshkar or "reading" printed Kalidasa verse):

1. The ACTUAL content of the Rg Veda (who has the original I wonder...) is a bunch of sounds, passed down orally through the ages with the order:

This is Sruti: what I heard. Pass it down EXACTLY for it shall give you Eternal Salvation. Don't ask why, how etc, just keep repeating it

2. Experts who have Anal-iced such sounds using Digital Signal Processing (aka Cavity Search), PiskoAcoustics, Aryan SS Powers, Austrian Linguistics, Freudian Mind Dump etc. have pronounced:

3. I cannot , and neither can any of the Experts, really decipher what the Rg Veda said, nor meant.

Therefore, the Rg Veda is all useless.
4. Ditto (I am illiterate) therefore any re-butt-al that I provide is meaningless. It is inferior to the conclusions reached by Other Experts (who are also illiterate: c 3 above).
5. Therefore I must accept what the Illiterate Experts say.
*******************************************************
To my yak level of intelligence, the explanations in the UpaNishads is as close as one CAN get to understanding the Vedas.

So as a yak-brain, I prefer to eat that, rather than the BS put out by Herr Achtung Witlez or whoever else, or the opportunists who organized Vedic Conferences days before the predicted Monsoon, to chant those Guttural Mutterings as Rain Dances, and who have no HOPE of ever understanding the context and the history and the tradition as the old prof does.

IOW, those "mutterings" of assorted sounds were the ancients' way of passing down the knowledge and wisdom gathered through the ages before them. But over time, what was understood of the Knowledge Base also came to be conveyed in more refined languages.

**************************************************
Which is my 1-line answer.
**************************************************
It has nothing to do with Sanskrit (Samskrtam), which is simply a "refined language" that came much later to communicate precisely. Like FORTRAN90 is to a set of hexadecimal flashing lights or sounds. In the old days one had to be very economical with the coding because the entire machine memory of a big cabinet-filling computer was 128 bytes. But the Ancients also passed on the Upanishads as the Instruction Manual and the Abridged for Kindergartners version and that is what people use to understand the gist of the "sounds".

I don't see a reason for these panicked convulsions. The only viable route (as in any branch of endeavor) is to practice the Veda and ancillary disciplines, as well as study Mimansa in detail. That will produce light at the end of the aerodynamic wind tunnel (also known as Yak-wazoo).

[KLP Dubey]

So are you suggesting that the sounds would exist whether or not humans exist, and that humans have taken these sounds and joined them into syllables and words to give "meaning" to things?

Yes, these indestructible and fixed patterns/Sounds/Words exist independently. At some point they came into human consciousness as audible sounds which are also in fixed arrangements. Over a long period of time humans tried to analyze these sounds and came up with meaning-assignments, grammar, syntax, phonology etc. These efforts are documented, in the form of the pratishakhyas, nirukta etc. It is possible that some of the "real meanings" were also transmitted originally and became confused/lost over time.

An important finding of the Indians is that the sounds in the Veda have a set of roots, which seem to be a basis for word construction. Each root has some meaning. Over the ages these roots have been assigned a variety of meanings (both primary and derived/secondary).

PS: I am not coming up with any sort of "original" suggestions. This is the established siddhanta of the Indians as embodied in the Vedangas and in Mimansa.

PPS: This has a relation to "Out of India" theories of language/human migrations, in that the Sanskrit language developed in India and then was disseminated in various (now corrupted) forms to other areas. Tracing this spread of Sanskrit-derived languages and human migrations (via archaeology, genetics, and even linguistics based upon the derivation of corrupted words from Sanskrit words) is the only way to prove OIT (as I have already asserted before), and not through absurd "deductions" of history in the Veda.

[Shreeman]

>>As cynical as the guy who invented the parachute to go with airplanes right after seeing the Design Approval PPT presentation proving how in-fall-ible the airplane was.

For fuxakes Batori, I nearly pi$$ed with laughter there... give warning macha!

Ok, having said that and gone back to read the rest of the post... very interesting indeed.

Related, sort of, but pardon my ignorance, in every other aspect "we" claim to know more today than yesterday. What is supposed to havve happened to cause the loss of the hidden knowledge?

[UlanBatori]

1. Too deep fundas.
2. Too many natural calamities and swing-bys of the savages. Macedonians, Persians, Pakis, Mongols, Pakis, Pakis, Portuguese, Dutch, French and Angrejis etc. With the usual fraternal stabbings in the intervals.
HOW can anything have survived, is the better question. Only the stuff that the mangoes could comprehend could have survived.

It is like a textbook where only the color cover survived because some child treasured it. The pages got eaten by Paco and termites.

Or... say you find the ruins of Dodge City and try to decipher American civilization from that. Please see that alltime classic on Archaeology: Motel Of The Mysteries.

Some of the takleef is because too much importance is attached to the Harappan/Mo'ro Civilization, based on some outhouses that someone dug up in a Paki desert. For a moment, imagine that this had never happened, and one was obliged to simply trace back using the existing handed-down knowledge base of Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas and just "legends".

So far the Legends are doing fine: Saraswati River, Dwaraka, Mahabalipuram, Ayodhya Temple...
There is nothing in the Legends AFAIK about the King of Harappa. That is a complete sideline, a trading outpost at the edge of civilization. Inhabited mostly by traders, Salon operators, Dancing Girls, and visiting Gunmen.

[Shreeman]

^^^ I dont have anything againsat this, but this also seems to indicate extrapolation of content by reading just the cover.

My prejudice in the "how it was lost" is towards thhe theory thst the worthies (if they knew it) didnt consider the mangoes worthy of learning the secrets. And only mangoes survived. Mangoes dont seem to be doing too well in today's africa. So I dont know what to make of it. I am not convinced external forces were this powerful.

Shouldnt one be looking in "the savages. Macedonians, Persians, Pakis, Mongols, Pakis, Pakis, Portuguese, Dutch, French and Angreji"-lands to see if any such secrets survive there? Anything reported?

PS -- Anyone know if they documented the treasure in those temple vaults in south india? Anythung other than yellow metal there?

[UlanBatori]

They were invaders and looters and rapists, they had little interest in learning the deep philosophy. They equated their military power and physical strength/endurance/ utter lack of human compassion with Divine Right and superiority of culture. They DID learn the science and technology and the empirical methods, which went into construction, stellar NAVIGATION (!!) that allowed them to conquer and enslave more lands beyond the oceans, math needed for weapons-building and money-counting, organization to construct languages, eventually computer languages, textile-making...

They took the sculptures and images away to adorn their museums. They kept the ones depicting buxom mohtermas and discarded the ones with indecipherable characters. They burned the things which could be burned.

Africa today is a terrifying example, and Crichton's "Congo" is a truly frightening metaphor for what happened in India as well. After the deep technical and philosophical knowledge carried by the Elite, was all destroyed, the fine, elegant civilization degenerated and was overgrown by the jungle, surrounded and "protected" by aam log who had no education, no resources, a few legends that they did not understand, the belief that if they imitated what they thought their ancestors were like, they would have the powers of their ancestors.... and became totally vulnerable to the invaders, looters and rapists.

So yes, the failure of the ancient civilization may have been that the Elite dug themselves deeper and deeper into philosophy and science thinking that they were scaling great heights, but failed to bring the aam masses along and develop them. When the cataclysms came, the aam log had no idea what hit them. Looking at today's yindoo society, one can see how this must have happened.

Re: Temple vaults: I don't think documents were kept in those temple vaults.

[shiv]

>>But even things that we cannot see, feel or sense "identify" themselves - i.e. they exist and have a "name". For example the sap flowing in a tree also exists and has a "natural name" that can be sensed - but not be an ordinary human. So also for rocks or for that matter, fire. That is the "natural name" - which can only be "heard" by a being who has an "absolute ear".

Doc I don't understand what you mean above. Would it be possible to explain it differently?

Tough call.

For this to have any meaning you have to already have been initiated into believing the fundamental Hindu theory of all existence (universe etc) having originated from nothingness. No light. No dark. No cold. No hot. No big. No small. Just nothing. This "nothing" is called "absolute unity" or even "God" or "Ishvara". This Ishvara "decided" exist in two states - one state of "nothingness" and another state of existence with contrasts - light, dark, hot cold etc. The state of "ultimate consciousness" having formed matter (as it were) was/is aware of every object in the universe. "Awareness" of every object mandates they they each have a unique id - or a name - a "natural or primordial name" So the supreme consciousness is able to "hear" or sense thee names as awarenes of everything in the universe.

But I am going backwards. How can any human know or experience this. By the discipline and guidance provided in the Vedas a human can rise to make his own human consciousness one with the universe or "realize" the supreme consciousness. In that state (of being one with Ishvara - or the state of absolute bliss/absolute awareness or nirvana in Buddhism) one can "hear" every sound there is an know/hear the natural names of everything. The Rig Veda is a distillation of what that awareness can bring in a manner that can be transmitted to humans. Some of the sounds are probably what humans can hear of "natural names" and it is likely that many of the sounds were later used to form words based on what the sounds were meant to convey - resulting in what could be a very fundamental theory in the origins of language.

- a little more later.

[shiv]

Shouldnt one be looking in "the savages. Macedonians, Persians, Pakis, Mongols, Pakis, Pakis, Portuguese, Dutch, French and Angreji"-lands to see if any such secrets survive there? Anything reported?

PS -- Anyone know if they documented the treasure in those temple vaults in south india? Anythung other than yellow metal there?

Not just south. The destruction of Nalanda was a painful precursor to today's UP and Bihar. In western terms it would be like nuking the top 200 universities in the world. (Which may be going on right now anyway)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

[ShauryaT]

Related, sort of, but pardon my ignorance, in every other aspect "we" claim to know more today than yesterday. What is supposed to havve happened to cause the loss of the hidden knowledge?

Loss of ability to read/write and understand Sanskrit amongst the general population, loss of political unity and social hardening. These three causes were the chief culprits for loss of knowledge.

There is one more thing, this "hidden knowledge" was never about "outer" sciences, it was always about "inner" sciences or of adhyatmic vidya. The Indian genius resides in the art of looking within and in this process we did acquire the ability to glean some meaningful external knowledge too. The Islamic invasions accentuated the above three causes leading to further fragmentation of society and polity and in turn, knowledge. Since the British and Industrialization, there are two parallel forces in play. One has arrested this fragmentation through the establishment of a political union, common language(s) by way of Hindustani and English in large parts of the area and increased social mobility. The other force in play is an attempt to uproot these civilizational underpinnings by transposing a foreign set of devolved ideas, who's roots are not in adhyatmic vidya, breaking the civilization continuum. This is a real threat on a weakened society, which India is. It is these two parallel forces we see in action in all aspects of Indian society today.

[Virendra]

So are you suggesting that the sounds would exist whether or not humans exist, and that humans have taken these sounds and joined them into syllables and words to give "meaning" to things?

Yes, these indestructible and fixed patterns/Sounds/Words exist independently. At some point they came into human consciousness as audible sounds which are also in fixed arrangements. Over a long period of time humans tried to analyze these sounds and came up with meaning-assignments, grammar, syntax, phonology etc. These efforts are documented, in the form of the pratishakhyas, nirukta etc. It is possible that some of the "real meanings" were also transmitted originally and became confused/lost over time.

An important finding of the Indians is that the sounds in the Veda have a set of roots, which seem to be a basis for word construction. Each root has some meaning. Over the ages these roots have been assigned a variety of meanings (both primary and derived/secondary).

PS: I am not coming up with any sort of "original" suggestions. This is the established siddhanta of the Indians as embodied in the Vedangas and in Mimansa.

PPS: This has a relation to "Out of India" theories of language/human migrations, in that the Sanskrit language developed in India and then was disseminated in various (now corrupted) forms to other areas. Tracing this spread of Sanskrit-derived languages and human migrations (via archaeology, genetics, and even linguistics based upon the derivation of corrupted words from Sanskrit words) is the only way to prove OIT (as I have already asserted before), and not through absurd "deductions" of history in the Veda.

Namaste Dubey ji,

Could you please explain on "original" / "primary" meaning of the roots that you've touched upon here.
Do you intend to say that the roots in vedic content had meaning, before we humans heard them and assigned our own "derived" meaning/definitions ?

If so, how do we know which are original meanings and which are man made.

Regards,
Virendra

[johneeG]

In Mahabhaaratha, it is said that East was sacred because it is created first. And therefore, East is called 'Purva'(Earlier) because it was created first. If one understands this point, it means that East of Meru(i.e. eastern Iran) is the ancient land and rest of the lands came later according to Mahabhaaratha.

To clarify what I mean when I say 'east of Meru': I mean that 'east' starts from the border of Pakistan and extends to rest of the Bharath-kanda.

A list of Kingdoms of Ancient Bhaarath prepared by me:

Ancient Kingdom - modern geographical area - spoken language
Uttara Kuru - Samarkand + Tajikistan + Kyrgyztan
Kuru - Upper Doab + Uttaranchal + Haryana - Khadiboli & Kumaoni
Mathura - Middle & Lower Doab - Braj(Vraj) Basha
Kosala(Ayodhya) - Awadh
Kaashi - Purvanchal - Bhojpuri
Chedi - Bundelkhand - Bundeli
Pulindha - South-Madhya Pradhesh
Paanchala - Punjab - Punjabi
Magadha - Jharkhand + South Bihar
Mithila - Northern Bihar + Eastern Nepal - Maithili
Pundra - Chattisgarh
Kalinga - Odisha - Odiya
Vanga - Bangal - Bangali
Anga - Sikkim + Bhutan + Meghalaya
Pragjyothishpur (or Kamarupa) - Assam
Manipur - Manipur
Tripura - Tripura
Malla - Western Nepal
Andhra - Andhra Pradhesh(including Thelangana) + Karnataka - Thelugu
Chola + Pandya (+ Dhravida) - Thamilnadu
Vidharbha - Vidharbha (Maharashtra)
Mahishaka - Maharaashtra(without Vidharbha)
Avanthi (Ujjain) or Malwa - Western Madhya Pradhesh
Madhra - Northern Rajashtan
Salwa - Gujarath(without Saurashtra)
Matsya + Trigarta + Shibhi - Rajasthan
Kekaya - Pakhtunistan
Saurashtra - Saurashtra (Gujarath)
Sindhu - Sindhu(Pakisthan)
Bahlika - Bactria (Afghanistan)
Gandhara - Afghanistan (without Pakhtunistan + Bactria)
Kambhoja - Eastern Iran
Shaaka - Scythia(Central Asia)
Kerala - Kerala

Yavana could be Iones or Japan or both.

I created a very rough image of what I had in my mind:

The map did not cover some parts properly.
For example, I could not indicate
Kambhoja: (western pakisthan + eastern Iran).
Shaka
Bahlika

If someone can point to a blank map of Asia, I can work on it. I think the key to understanding the ancient Bhaarathiya literature is knowing the geography and genealogy. Once these two are handy, the stories are much more easily understood and a pattern also is seen.

----

isn't yavana a twist of ionian and a catch all term for greeks in ancient India ?

Yes, it is generally assumed that Ionian and Yavana are related. It may be true. But, it may not be also. One does not know.

Yavana = Japan?

It is possible. I think it is most probable based on Sugriva's description.
The words Yavana/Javana have same meaning: fast.

Infact, in Thelugu, the word 'Jappana' is used to mean 'fast'. Most probably, 'Jappana' word in Thelugu(generally used in Thelangana region) comes from Yavana/Javana. In non-Thelangana regions, 'Chappuna' is used to mean 'fast'.

So, Yavana -> Javana -> Jappana -> Chappuna. All mean same thing: fast.

Now, why are Yavanas fast?

The general AIT-based theory is: Yavanas are greeks who are fast because they have have horses unlike the Bhaarathiyas without horses. This is a typical AIT-based theory.

This is a silly theory because Shakas, Hunas, Haihayas, Bahlikas, Kaambhojas...etc who were situated in central-asia would be the ones having horses. And they would be called Yavanas, if having horses was the criteria. The best horses seem to come from Bahlika(bactria) and Kaambhoja(eastern Iran). These people were not called Yavanas. So, greeks don't qualify as 'fast' based on horse-theory.

It seems to me that the word 'Yavana' means some kind of tribal/clan people with some particular attributes. It need not be restricted to any particular race or location. So, that term may apply to greeks and japanese.

However, Yava islands in the east may mean Japan.

So,
Yavana -> Javana -> Jabana -> Japana.
So, 'Japan' could be corruption of Yavana or Javana.

johneeG garu,

Words like "Japan" are themselves Western transcriptions of the name of the land as used by foreigners, in this case Chinese. Please don't go by spelling. The Japanese use Nippon, meaning 'sun-origin'.

Saar,
Sugriva also is a foreigner only, no? He is not a japanese. Anyway, it seems that there is a lot of ambiguity about the actual name of Japan. It seems to me that Japan was known as Japan to rest of the world regardless of what name was used by Japanese themselves.

Some of the modern geographic names which may have Sanskruth or Bhaarathiya origins:
...
Arjuna (white) -> Argentina(South-American country)

Similarly names like Argentina were given to the region by European settlers. Name is first referred to in 1602 as per Wikipedia. Though Arjuna (Sanskrit) and Argentum (Latin) both mean silver.

Yea, I too saw that on wiki.

But, there is something interesting:
Arjuna-sthana can become Argentina. The 'tina' part is very close to 'sthana' part. This is similar to Palestine which may have been a corruption of 'Paala-sthana'.

Sugriva mentions Yava island comprising of 7 kingdoms in Eastern direction. It could be 7 kingdoms of Japan(so this was long time before Japan was unified). Sugriva also mentions Sindh river in east, it is the tributary river and not the other main Sindh river(which flows in west). This shows that sometimes, more than one place can have similar(or same) names and lead to confusion.

Yava island can simply be Java island of Indonesia. It has had a Hindu or, more precisely speaking, rather an 'Ārya' past.

Yea, thats the first idea one gets. But, based on the description given by Sugriva, it seems that these islands are located near Japan. So, most probably, he is referring to Japan. These Islands are mentioned just before talking about pacific ocean and then Northern America.

It seems modern-day Java islands itself may have also been considered part of Japan at that time while rest of the Indo-China area may have been part of Bhaarath-kanda. Even Japan seems to be part of Jambudhwipa i.e. Asia.

IOW, I am respectfully suggesting that the basic assumption

"Scriptures were written on the banks of the Saraswati/ Sindhu/ Sapta Sindhu rivers"

should be opened to debate and re-consideration.

The Asuras from the west have tried to steal the Vedas and take them to the Bavarian forest etc.

But the reality may be that the original thinking and knowledge generation occurred over the larger Jambudweep/ East/SouthEast with an unexplained link to the Northern Arunachal (erroneously called Tibet) plateau and Manasarovar regions. After all, the Vedas are an amazingly CONCISE distillation of knowledge gained over what MUST have been many many millennia or Yugas. Discussion of that aspect is shut off with the "Sruti" statement, but it must still have been "Sruti" passed down and refined through the Yugas. It is clear that the "Puranas" have lots of content added all over the place, across the Yugas (mention of "much later" events in "much earlier" Puranas, most glaring example is "Bhavishya Purana").

The Sapta Sindhu region may have been one place where travelers, Rishis, all gathered for discussions, and met Asuras from the West for chai-biscoot-samosa as well, and exchanged colored beads for furs or whatever the asuras brought. But as far as I can make out, that region had to be a much later addition, a border if u will of the JD civilization.

What about the term "Jambu Dweepam"? Sorry I don't accept what is said here as the last word on this question. It sounds too much like an "explanation" given by a Chinmaya Mission "Sanayasi" after the deep and beautiful discourse by Swami Ranganathananda. What does "Jambu" mean? Why "Dweepam" (island)? What island? The Indian Subcontinent BEFORE it collided with Oiresia? Is this why the Himalayas became a central theme of SD, despite their being sooo far from the rest of JD/East Asia? Was someone watching as the Oiresia coastline gradually drew closer? Were there truly radical Magnitude 12 tectonics as the Plates collided, not over millions of years but in a few days?? Did someone watch as oceans drained out from the collision region and peaks rose from the ocean (along with all kinds of stuff...) .. and the former "coast" now became ever higher and colder?

IOW, was there memory passed down from a time when there was a super-cataclysmic event such as a large asteroid hitting, causing unimaginable changes to the planet including shoving continental plates against each other at massive (on tectonic scale) speed?

Was there a memory transfer through evolution from pre-human species?

Ulan Batori saar,
I think you are meshing two separate streams and trying to come up with a theory to explain both.
a) Stream 1: Ancient Bhaarathiya literature
b) Stream 2: Modern Scientific theories about ancient world

Now, it seems to me that these two streams are fundamentally opposed to each other. Their descriptions are completely contrary to each other. Atleast, one of them is false. Both can't be correct at the same time.

Depending on a person's inclination, one has to choose which stream to believe. The operative word is: belief. Because, strictly speaking, there is no way to know the truth. Ancient Bhaarathiya literature gives a portrayal. Modern Scientific theories make some speculations and guestimations.

What you are doing is trying to fit the Ancient Bhaarathiya literature into modern scientific hypothesis. The result will be silly. If the modern hypothesis are true, then the ancient literature is false or fictional. If the Ancient Bhaarathiya literature is true, modern scientific hypothesis is wrong.

One reason the whole origin of Vedhas is complicated because it goes back to a fundamental question: origin of universe.

When I was a kid, one of the most interesting topic to me was: origin of universe. Somehow, no explanation could satisfy my curiosity. I asked my teachers, "Where did the first man come from?" They said,"He came from atom." I asked,"Where did the first atom come?"

Eventually, they didn't have the answer. I think this is also the state of modern science. Where did the whole universe come from? I don't think the modern science has the answer. They talk about atoms, dark matter, ...etc. But, they seem to miss a fundamental point. Whatever it is that is pointed out as the origin of the world(say X), the question will be,"where did that X come from? Whatever entity from which the entire world came up, where did that entity come from?"

There is only one possibility: that entity, which originated the universe, always existed. It did not come from anything. It just exists all the time. That entity is also energetic enough to be the origin of the entire universe. That means that entity is the fundamental basis on which the entire universe is conducted. The same entity is supposed to be the author of Vedhas also.

That entity is indestructible and will always remain existent. When the universe is finally destroyed, the energy will merge back into the entity from which it came. And after some time, another universe will get created. Infact, there is a good possibility that there may be multiple universes being created and destroyed all the time. But all of them have one single entity as their origin which remains without origin or destruction.

[kenop]

From Sri Aurobindo's "The Secret of the Veda"

p36

Like the majority of educated Indians I had passively accepted without examination, before myself reading the Veda, the conclusions of European Scholarship both as to the religious and as to the historical and ethnical sense of the ancient hymns. In consequence, following again the ordinary line taken by modernised Hindu opinion, I regarded the Upanishads as the most ancient source of Indian thought and religion, the true Veda, the first Book of Knowledge. The Rig Veda in the modern translations which were all I knew of this profound Scripture, represented for me an important document of our national history, but seemed of small value or importance for the history of thought or for a living spiritual experience.

My first contact with Vedic thought came indirectly while pursuing certain lines of self-development in the way of Indian Yoga, which, without my knowing it, were spontaneously converging towards the ancient and now unfrequented paths fol lowed by our forefathers. At this time there began to arise in my mind an arrangement of symbolic names attached to certain psychological experiences which had begun to regularise themselves; ...

on p39

I had supposed. But far more interesting to me was the discovery of a considerable body of profound psychological thought and experience lying neglected in these ancient hymns. And the importance of this element increased in my eyes when I found, first, that the mantras of the Veda illuminated with a clear and exact light psychological experiences of my own for which I had found no sufficient explanation either in European psychology or in the teachings of Yoga or of Vedanta, so far as I was acquainted with them, and, secondly, that they shed light on obscure passages and ideas of the Upanishads to which, previously, I could attach no exact meaning and gave at the same time a new sense to much in the Puranas.

I was helped in arriving at this result by my fortunate ignorance of the commentary of Sayana. For I was left free to attribute their natural psychological significance to many ordi nary and current words of the Veda, such as dh¯, thought or understanding, manas, mind, mati, thought, feeling or mental state, man¯sa, intellect, rtam, truth; to give their exact shades of sense to kavi, seer, man¯si, thinker, vipra, vipa´ cit, enlightened in mind, and a number of similar words; and to hazard a psychological sense, justified by more extensive study, for words like daksa which for Sayana means strength and sravas which he renders as wealth, food or fame. The psychological theory of the Veda rests upon our right to concede their natural significance to these vocables.

Sayana gives to the words dh¯, rtam, etc., very variable significances. Rtam, which is almost the key-word of any psychological or spiritual interpretation, is rendered by him sometimes as "truth", more often "sacrifice", occasionally in the sense of water. The psychological interpretation gives it invariably the sense of Truth. Dh¯ is rendered by Sayana variously "thought", "prayer", "action", "food", etc. The psychological interpretation gives it consistently the sense of thought or understanding.

Practice was the key to SA's understanding of the meaning of Vedic words/terms. Of course, he saw the text after his experiences/experiments and could find a correspondence.
I have a book (on Nirvikalpakavada) somewhere , which discusses meanings attached to words in Sanskrit. I cannot recollect enough structured thoughts to put down at the moment.

[johneeG]

IOW, I am respectfully suggesting that the basic assumption

"Scriptures were written on the banks of the Saraswati/ Sindhu/ Sapta Sindhu rivers"

should be opened to debate and re-consideration.

The Asuras from the west have tried to steal the Vedas and take them to the Bavarian forest etc.

But the reality may be that the original thinking and knowledge generation occurred over the larger Jambudweep/ East/SouthEast with an unexplained link to the Northern Arunachal (erroneously called Tibet) plateau and Manasarovar regions. After all, the Vedas are an amazingly CONCISE distillation of knowledge gained over what MUST have been many many millennia or Yugas. Discussion of that aspect is shut off with the "Sruti" statement, but it must still have been "Sruti" passed down and refined through the Yugas. It is clear that the "Puranas" have lots of content added all over the place, across the Yugas (mention of "much later" events in "much earlier" Puranas, most glaring example is "Bhavishya Purana").

The Sapta Sindhu region may have been one place where travelers, Rishis, all gathered for discussions, and met Asuras from the West for chai-biscoot-samosa as well, and exchanged colored beads for furs or whatever the asuras brought. But as far as I can make out, that region had to be a much later addition, a border if u will of the JD civilization. [

Ulan Batori saar,
There is no point in talking about author or place of writing about Vedhas.

As for Raamayana, according to scripture, it was written at the banks of Ganga and Thamasa rivers in central and North Bhaarath by Vaalmiki. It was later spread around in Kosala. Maahabhaaratha claims that it was written by Vyasa. It was first recited at an Yagna conducted by descendents of Paandavas between Saraswathi and Ganga river. The area between Saraswathi and Ganga forms the Kuru area. Later, these stories were retold by a person who heard them in the Yagna(he was also Vyasa's disciple) to a bunch of ascetics in a forest near Central Bhaarath.

it's probably a ref to one of the Indo-greek invasions (milinda/menander). the puranas were mostly written in that time period although some claim an earlier origin.

Saar,
I have a genuine doubt: how does one know the date of a text? As far as I can see, unless there is a clear source mentioning the date, there is no way to know the date of a text.

Now, the modern theories are not only claiming to know when a particular ancient text was written, but they are also claiming to be able to detect interpolations/extrapolations and even give dates of when those interpolations/extrapolations were written. This seems like a big nonsense to me. Regardless of all the sophistry, I don't see anyway of deciding the date of text merely by reading a text long after it was written. It is very difficult to find any interpolation or extrapolation in any text. I would say it is almost impossible to identify them. There may well have been interpolations or extrapolations. But, it is very difficult to identify them unless it is very apparent and brazen. For example:

11th century monk corrects Tacitus: "Goodies" to read "Christians"!


Ultraviolet photo of a critical word from the earliest known extant manuscript of Tacitus (second Medicean, Laurentian library, Italy).

The photograph reveals that the word purportedly used by Tacitus in Annals 15.44, chrestianos ("the good"), has been overwritten as christianos ("the Christians") by a later hand, a deceit which explains the excessive space between the letters and the exaggerated "dot" (dash) above the new "i". The entire "torched Christians" passage of Tacitus is not only fake, it has been repeatedly "worked over" by fraudsters to improve its value as evidence for the Jesus myth.

The above is a good example of detecting an attempt at interpolation or extrapolation. But, such brazen and clear examples would be rare. Most of the time, even if there is an interpolation/extrapolation, it will be indistinguishable from the original text making it difficult to identify.

Infact, if it were clearly distinguishable, then such an interpolation/extrapolation would not survive the time. Only those interpolations/extrapolation which are mostly indistinguishable from the original text would survive time and scrutiny by people. So, those interpolations/extrapolations which survived time, will be quite impossible to detect, let alone be assigned dates.

I think the 'modern scholars' are simply pouting nonsense when they come up with theories about what is an interpolation and what is original text based on their silly theories.

But, Johnee sir ji, All the time, Mata Sita was just next door in Lanka. Jatau have already mentioned Ravan , the King of Lanka as guilty party.

Jhujar ji,
When Raama first met Sugriva, He asked Sugriva whether he knew about Raavana's location because Jatayu had told him that Raavana had abducted Seetha. At that time, Sugriva was still uncertain about Raama. He had still not acquired his kingdom. So, he did not tell Raama the truth. Instead, he lied that he didn't know the location of Raavana.

Later, once he acquired the kingdom, he was lost in revelries until Raama became angry and issued a threat. So, Sugriva immediately assembled his entire army and sent search parties all over the world for Seetha amma. Of course, Sugriva knew that Raavana's kingdom was in Lanka. Raama also knew that Seetha amma was abducted and taken to southern direction. So, a very strong party was sent to southern direction. The rest of the directions were searched as formality. The rest of the parties also knew that and could take it easy.

If you read Raamayana, you will notice that Sugriva set a certain time limit. All other parties returned within that time limit where as the sourthern search party didn't. Now, the other search parties had to cover more places and yet they returned in time while sourthern party had less places to cover, yet they didn't return in time The party that went to south had the real task because that was the direction in which Seetha was taken after abduction. They had to deliver. Thats why Raama gave His ring only to Hanumaan. Not to other search parties.

Dubey-ji there was no history in the comment. All it said was the veda could have been composed by people over the continent. That it was complied implies some thinking process behind it and that implies some content (knowledge). You can limit it to primordial sounds or sounds that somehow happen to be comprehended as sanskrit . In which case the Sanskrit creators did a great job - implies thinking and content yet again.

Every Manthra has an associated 'dhrashta'(seer i.e. one who saw the Manthra). It implies that the person who saw the 'manthra' is a discoverer of it. The difference between discovery and invention is known.

Why is it called discovery and not invention? This is the real question.
I think it is called discovery because the knowledge that was being passed was being discovered rather than invented.

Now, the question is: what knowledge?
The word 'vedha' itself means 'knowledge'. There is even a verb in Sanskruth associated with 'vedha', so since it talks about 'knowledge' in general without specifying any particular knowledge, it may be talking about all sorts of knowledge.

Thats why various streams of knowledge have been derived from Vedhas. If Vedhas were dealing with only one particular type of knowledge, then other streams of knowledge cannot be derived from it.

Various streams of knowledge derived from Vedhas are: these are called Upa-Vedhas:
Medicine (Āyurvedha), associated with the Rigvedha
Archery (Dhanurvedha), associated with the Yajurvedha
Music and dance (Gāndharva-vedha), associated with the Saamavedha
Sthapathya Vedha(i.e architecture or engg) associated with the Atharvavedha

Upa-Vedha could mean knowledge branches derived from the Vedhas or it could also mean applied(i.e. practical) knowledge derived from the Vedhas. It is also clearly given which branch was derived from which Vedha.

To understand the Vedha and Upa-Vedha, there are certain other subjects which need to be known. They are Vedha-angas. These Vedha-angas are crucial in properly understanding the Vedhas and Upa-Vedhas.

It means a Vedha can be understood in multiple ways to derive various knowledge. One could derive an architectural or engg based interpretation. Or one could derive a music/dance based interpretation...etc. That means Vedhas are encoded. Each word can have different meanings based on particular stream of knowledge. To understand it properly and decode it, one needs to know the correct key. The correct key is generally given by the Guru or Master who has himself acquired from his Guru or Master going back to the original one who discovered the key.

Infact, the claim is that the discoverer only discovered key to decode and not the code itself.

That humans from Africa came to India, spread over and then spread beyond has Mitochondrial basis.

Please, elaborate saar. How does it show this? I have no knowledge on this and so please explain it as you would explain to a 5-yr old i.e without all the technical jargon.

At best, I can imagine DNA showing some similarity between certain tribes/clans. But, I don't see how it will show that migrations happened from one place to another.

----
I think to understand the concept of Manthras, one has to think like the ancient Bhaarathiyas. After all, one is trying to understand their thinking. One cannot understand it unless one starts to think like them.

So, what is their understanding?

It seems the way they see it is that the whole universe was created from an entity which itself is without origin. And that entity is also without destruction. That entity is changeless and all-pervasive. It is energetic and infinite. It is knowledgeable and has the capacity to transfer knowledge. When the universe is destroyed, the energy of the universe goes back to the entity. That entity is impersonal and equi-balanced towards all objects of universe.

Since the entity is all pervasive and energetic, it can be accessed in every part of universe. Since, it is energetic, those who access it, will become more powerful/energetic.

For example, consider this: every physical object in the universe contains energy and knowledge. Every object without exception. They have a particular nature according to which they interact with other objects. So, there is knowledge of how to interact with the other objects hardwired into every object. For example, a sponge knows how to soak water. And water knows how to enter sponge. There energy and knowledge in this physical interaction. Every physical interaction is through transfer of energy. Either the energy is taken or given.

Another way of looking at it is: every physical object is a physical representation of a energy. Physical object is just a medium to carry energy. The real thing is energy.

If the energy is the real thing using physical object as a medium or representation, then the
a) energy must be represented by every physical object and
b) every physical object must carry particular energy and
c) same energy can be represented in various physical ways.
The above 3 are corollaries of the theory that physical object is just a representation of the energy.

Each of these corollaries leads to further thought process.

a) energy must be represented by every physical object
If every physical object has energy, then it must be representing that particular energy. This means that when two objects interact, it is actually two energies interacting. So, the predictions about interaction of the objects can be made if the nature of interactions of the energies is understood. If I know how water and fire interact with each other, then I can predict the interaction of hot iron and cold water. Hot iron takes the energy of the fire and behaves like fire.

b) every physical object must carry particular energy
This leads to the theory that every physical object must be carrying some energy. So, every place, object, time, circumstance, animal, ...etc carries energy. Any change in place, object, time, ...etc can also change energy, positively or negatively.

c) same energy can be represented in various physical ways.
This means that the same energy can be represented in various physical ways like image(for seeing or touching), food(for tasting), sound(for hearing), smell(or smelling)...etc. One can make a drawing to represent an energy. Or one can make a sound to represent the same energy. If one makes a drawing, it is called Yanthra. If one makes a sound, it is called Manthra. If one makes an image, it is called Murthi. But all of them are merely ways of representing the energy.

If we combine these three corollaries, one can understand the concept.
Every physical object will carry energy. Energy is divine. There is one single energetic entity which is the origin of all universe. Yet, after the creation of universe, there are multiple energies in the world. Every physical object will need atleast one type of energy to work properly. These energies can be represented in various ways physically.

Now, as a human being: we too have a physical self and a energy. I interact with rest of the universe. I can either increase my energy or decrease my energy based on my interaction with universe. Every action, word and thought can make a impact on whether the energy is gained or lost. The interaction will happen at physical level but the real thing is the transfer of energy.

The concept goes that there are ways to interact positively and increase the energy. Or at least, minimize the decrease of energy.

When we say increase energy and decrease energy and talk about interaction between energies, it automatically means that some objects have more energy than others. It also means than any object can acquire or lose energy. Energy held by all physical objects is temporary. All physical attributes are temporary. The energy is more long lasting, but strictly speaking, even it is temporary. The only thing that is everlasting is the entity which contains all energy and is all pervasive.

When some objects contain more energy than others, it means that those who contain less energy can acquire more energy by being in the vicinity of those having more energy than them. But, it also means that those who have more energy will lose energy if they interact with those who have less energy than them.

All physical objects have energy. Physical objects need physical objects to acquire or lose energy. Direct interact with energy is difficult or not possible.

This means that there has to be certain interface between physical object and energy. Basically, energy become gross and gross at certain levels. The subtlest level interacts with the next grosser level until finally it interacts with physical object. That means physical object is nothing more than a very gross form of energy.

So, there are several levels of energy from gross to subtle. The subtle energies are more powerful and difficult to detect. The all pervasive energy is of course the all powerful entity containing all energies. It is impossible to detect it.

This is the concept. And based on this concept the whole Santhana Dharma seems to work.

[UlanBatori]

That is powerful (no pun intended). I have not got around to understanding how an electromagnetic or gravitational field can act across vacuum, so I am quite a long way (or time) from understanding energy. That energy and matter are the same, has now been accepted by humans.

What is the best source to see the "actual" content of the Rg Veda (I mean as sounds or whatever). If transmitting the content as audible sound was the compression/encoding mechanism, then does it not follow that the entire "knowledge base" was compressed into the spectrum of about 0.1Hz to 20,000 Hz (audible range of humans)? The actual electromagnetic spectrum ranges, I suppose, from some extremely low frequency (period of hajaar-hajaar saal) to some extremely high frequency.

If the content was explained into textual verses, why was it still essential to transmit the sounds to later generations?
Is it plausible that actually "writing" the "text" occurred much, much later, the content was transmitted purely by oral/aural means and continually refined in each transmission/ generation.

Anyway, back to my original point: The general assumption that SD "arose" first in the Sapta Sindhu, should be questioned.

[shiv]

If the content was explained into textual verses, why was it still essential to transmit the sounds to later generations?

The sense I get from various sources is that those chants made in that manner are necessary for the fulfilment of functions that need them for fulfilment - such as say a mantra for illness to be used by a physician.

We tend to be sceptics in this day and age - but the entire Atharva Veda - the last and latest of the Vedas (and possibly its "lost half" - the Parsi Zend Avesta) were all about potions and spells. Possibly some of these may have been effective - and particularly the Parsi (aka "Avestan") practitioners of this were called "magi" - yes the same magi who came from the east. The word "magic" is derived from this.

[RajeshA]

There is one more thing, this "hidden knowledge" was never about "outer" sciences, it was always about "inner" sciences or of adhyatmic vidya. The Indian genius resides in the art of looking within and in this process we did acquire the ability to glean some meaningful external knowledge too.

Perhaps the perspective was different. All knowledge was adhyatmic. If "Aham Brahmasmi" and everything is "in Brahman", then everything is Adhyatmic - then exploring self and exploring the cosmos becomes one and the same!

By saying that Indians are basically "inward looking", we are playing into the hands of the West, that we did not have anything substantial in scientific terms to offer to the people.

All hints point to Bharat being Science Central of the ancient world.

[shiv]

Ulan Batori - regarding chanting of Mantras -

From the Garland of Letters

Now movement being accompanied by sound,let us suppose we could hear(which we cannot do through the individual natural ear) the sound produced by the generating stress or constituting forces of (say) the house-hold fire, then the sound so heard would be the natural name of that fire. Again the sap rises in the trees. Could we hear the forces constituting this rising sap, then the sound heard would be the natural name of that vegetable function, and so on. Naturalname in its purest sense may therefore be defined as the sound produced by the generating stress (Śakti) or constituting forces of a thing, not as apprehended by this ear or that (which apprehends within limits and subject to conditions) but by what may recalled the Supreme and Infinite Ear which apprehends un-conditionally a sound, which is sound as it is. By Supreme Ear is meant the power (Śakti) of apprehending sound in itself or as such, without subjection to the varying conditions of Time, Place (i.e., Plane) and Person. It is that which hears causal stress of a thing as such or unconditionally. Then the natural name of a thing is that sound which the Supreme Ear hears. Natural language in its highest sense is a language of natural names only. In this sense no language below the absolute plane can be such.

In this sense even the Vedic language and its Mahāmantra“Om ” is not natural language.

<snip>

The sound which has descended to us as “Om” cannot therefore be a natural name of the creative process in the full sense; but having descended through the Mānasaputras and a line of Gurus each of whom more or less closely approximated to the pure sound in his personal experience, it is practically taken as an approximate natural name of the initial creative action.

<snip>

The sound or Bīja "Ram" (र), for example, may be the approximate natural name of Agni, but unless we can grip the causal stress of Agni itself, it tells nothing about the attributes and relations of the thing with which we are practically concerned. Ordinarily Ram (र), Hrim (᮳ᱭ) , Aim (᲍), Om (Ა) are unmeaning. For this reason we hear talk of Mantra being “Jabber,” as if any body of men in the world’s history deliberately occupied themselves with what was in fact meaningless jabber. That is not necessarily to say that the theory is correct, but that it is not absurd and without sense as supposed. Now-a-days when the Śāstra is nearly lost, it may be so in those cases where the Mantras are said without understanding

[Prem]

Ulan Batori - regarding chanting of Mantras -

[

enerating stress (Śakti) or constituting forces of a thing, not as apprehended by this ear or that (which apprehends within limits and subject to conditions) In this sense even the Vedic language and its Mahāmantra“Om ” is not natural language.The sound which has descended to us as “Om” cannot therefore be a natural name of the creative process in the full sense; but having descended through the Mānasaputras and a line of Gurus each of whom more or less closely approximated to the pure sound in his personal experience, it is practically taken as an approximate natural name of the initial creative action.

Sri Ramakrishna had experiecne beyond OM when in Niravkalpa he transcended both existence/ non existence and he had the similar opinion on OM being touched by human agency/faculties. That Supreme Entity/ Non Entity remain beyond knowledge and to be experienced only.

[JE Menon]

Holy crap...thanks Doc. For me a series of eye (and ear) opening posts from you there. Had never thought in that depth about the origin of sound...

Reading to do now.

[UlanBatori]

I spent a few years "seeing" the sound (pressure fluctuations) from a fire - a propane flame, mostly watching the traces go by on an oscilloscope. I must have called it by several "natural" and "unnatural" names because the experiments would not work properly until the last possible chance.

[JE Menon]

So guys, given that I'm just testing the waters on subject matter, this is what I've understood, and pls correct me if I'm wrong. I will take silence (i.e. no one's bothered to reply) as a "Yes, that's about it".

1. Natural name of an object - The total sonic output of the generative and/or existential stresses of the object. This can be sensed in sum only by a presence from the beginning of these stresses, and which must permeate, therefore, all.

2. Vedic sound - that part of the natural name which is accessible to the human ear, and that which is truest in terms of fidelity to its original source. Hence the emphasis on rigorous and precise repetition with the intent of preservation for all time.

Two questions that arise for me, deriving from the above two statements, if accurate. (A) what is the need to posit a presence as suggested in point 1. Why not posit that pre-Vedic humans were simply able to intuit the existence of a natural name; and (B) What is the reason for the emphasis on preservation of precise Vedic sound, is there anything else intuited or known by the people of the time that could have impressed upon them the importance of preservation of what must have seemed then to be just a babble of noises? Any thoughts on that...

Aside: Batori, you are being modest sir. I suspect if anyone here is qualified to speak on the subject of sound and its origins and possible applications, scientifically, that is the Man from Mangolistan.

[member_20317]

You are now no longer testing the waters. You have already hit the wall. Hope shivji helps you out. KLPD ji will only present us with a firmly closed fist.

But Vedas would be OT here, i guess. I came here thinking it something about OIT.

[shiv]

Two questions that arise for me, deriving from the above two statements, if accurate. (A) what is the need to posit a presence as suggested in point 1. Why not posit that pre-Vedic humans were simply able to intuit the existence of a natural name; and (B) What is the reason for the emphasis on preservation of precise Vedic sound, is there anything else intuited or known by the people of the time that could have impressed upon them the importance of preservation of what must have seemed then to be just a babble of noises? Any thoughts on that...

JEM you have pretty much got it as I believe it to be.

The point about "pre-vedic humans" is an interesting and intuitive one. One way of saying the same thing is that the sounds were handed down by "someone" or "something" - not necessarily human. I guess this is what Dubey meant be the idea that they were given.

Point 1 that you mention is simply an exposition that repeats the Hindu belief that "God" is the entire universe representing everything dissolved into one. It is a universal consciousness that is conscious of everything there is. Humans cannot normally see or feel what this God/universal consciousness sees/hears/feels but with initiation, training in the Vedas a human can reach that state of realization of what the Universe is and what is seen and felt. Pre -Vedic rishis were just such humans who saw this and handed down what could be handed to humans in a format that you have to believe as being suitable for humans - i.e the Vedas.

People such as Frawley (aka Vamadeva Sastry) posit that
a. Humans have had a lot of time to come out with such concepts - more time than is given to them by the AITfolk. Frawley mentions timescales going back 8 to 10,000 years or earlier.

b. He also says something on the lines of how people in those days spent a lot more time looking inward, not pressured by modern needs to grab and fill oneself. He also says some complimentary stuff on these lines that I will quote verbatim from a book of his in some other post - I can't recall exactly.

Frawley says that it is perfectly credible that humans of that era spent a lot of time studying the "inner universe" as it were.

So yes the idea that humans who could sense all this existed in that era is a perfectly well accepted explanation

[Agnimitra]

(A) what is the need to posit a presence as suggested in point 1. Why not posit that pre-Vedic humans were simply able to intuit the existence of a natural name;

Dunno what "pre-Vedic humans" means exactly, but shamans in various cultures have talked about this "name" of various objects in nature. Amazonians in Brazil, for example, say that they learned about the medicinal properties of various herbs because the plants "told it to them". They communed in some strange way and the plants told them. Same case with other aspects of nature. Some shamans do it today also.

(B) What is the reason for the emphasis on preservation of precise Vedic sound, is there anything else intuited or known by the people of the time that could have impressed upon them the importance of preservation of what must have seemed then to be just a babble of noises? Any thoughts on that...

Its not about "preservation", its about "duplication". Two very different things. Actually the "Preservation" mentality could come in the way of performing a yajna to satisfaction if it doesn't graduate to "Achieving Control" sooner than later. But strictness of duplication is essential. Because here's how the psycho-physical and psycho-spiritual parts of the process add up:

Duplication = Communication + Control
Duplication + Control = Having

"Having" is a psycho-spiritual quality, and it means a satisfaction as if one has owned what is indicated and so knows it. E.g., some people aren't satisfied even after they physically possess something, because they don't have a "having-ness" about that object (or much else).

See this blogpost for where "Control" comes in the table of the "Modes of Doing" -

Be Do Have: Creativity, Faith, Works and Witnessing

Also, Being --> Doing --> Having

First one is supposed to Be a Vedic human from a pre-Vedic type (most of us are "pre-Vedic" types in another sense). Then one has to Do Vedic yajna in its psycho-spiritual and psycho-physical sense, in order to achieve Control and further. Then one can Have the Veda. That's the basic theory and practice that is transmitted. Therefore the second mantra of RigVeda is:

अग्निः पूर्वेभिर्ऋषिभिरीड्यो नूतनैरुत । स देवाँ एह वक्षति ॥ [RgVeda 1.1.2]
"Worthy is Agni to be praised by the Living as by the Ancient seers. He shall bring hitherward the Gods."

Swami Dayananda's commentary to this has this explanation (translated):

pUrvebhiH - The learned of the present time and of the past;
nUtanaiH - the neophytes who currently study the meanings of the Vedas and are involved with the latest in human knowledge;
RShibhiH - the learned who see the meanings of the Veda, and those who stay involved in these learned men's logics and etiologies;
agniH - That supreme Lord;
IDyaH - worthy of praise and being continuously inquired into and discovered;

[...]

Whatever meanings the Nirukti has given for this mantra, that I have written here.

[shiv]

Here is a scan of a relevant quote from David Frawley's book "Gods, Sages and Kings" (It is about the Vedas and Indian civilization in general) but Frawley refers to modern western civilization in the scanned passage below.

[schinnas]

b. He also says something on the lines of how people in those days spent a lot more time looking inward, not pressured by modern needs to grab and fill oneself. He also says some complimentary stuff on these lines that I will quote verbatim from a book of his in some other post - I can't recall exactly.

Frawley says that it is perfectly credible that humans of that era spent a lot of time studying the "inner universe" as it were.

So yes the idea that humans who could sense all this existed in that era is a perfectly well accepted explanation

Shiv-ji,
Sri Aurobindo's seminal work on Integral theory of evolution of human consciousness explains it very well. If I have to reduce it to a few lines with associated loss of nuances and distortion due to my limited understanding, it would be this way:
During pre-vedia and early vedic days the population was less intellectual and more intuitive. Because the thinking mind was not as well developed they had a more natural and strong connection with higher states of consciousness and had strong intuitive faculties. In the Secret of the Veda, he explains how ancient Seers perceived Universal truths and sang it naturally (from an experiential state) using symbols and allegory derived from nature that surrounded them. For a fuller evolution of consciousness other faculties had to evolve and flourish and hence mind and intellect has been evolving since then with the associated loss of intuition and touch with higher consciousness. Thinking mind by very nature divides consciousness and not unites or rises up. Thats why in later day yogas, such as that of Patanjali and most meditative / devotional parts, there is lot of insistence of killing the mind of thoughts.

However, per Sri Aurobindo, in the march of evolution, newer states of consciousness will manifest on earth (which great Beings like Sri Aurobindo have worked to hasten with their Tapasya) that will atonce have the well evolved mind and intellect guided by an intuition that operates from a higher plane of consciousness. I hope as such newer states of consciousness establish more clearly in human mind, the understanding and appreciation of Vedic truths will become more widespread.

My understanding is that thus one finds in Veda both the highest knowledge and yet some of the simplest of the vocabulary and linguistic structure compared to the complex structuralist novels and other literature one find which are high on intellectualism and low on Knowledge.

[UlanBatori]

Can someone post here the exact content (beginning 10 lines) of the Rg Veda? No explanations, just the content.

If it is sound, then it should be described as content primarily in XXX frequency bands. Or if it is repeated many times, post the Fourier coefficients with the conversions to units of pressure, and the fundamental frequency.

Without doing that, it is meaningless to say:
It's all great stuff, no need 4 discussion, it is all understood onlee, and its understanding makes one healthy, wealthy and pink-cheeked.

For one thing, reading this thread conveys that there is an inverse relationship between claimed mastery of the Vedas and abstinence from obscenities as a mode of explanation, argument, rejection of any need for explanation or agument, or simply claiming Intellectual Superiority. This puts that claim in deep doubt. Obviously just having Heard or Memorized a few sounds does not make anyone civilized.

IIRC, the AIT switched to OAT: per what BBC spouted, Lucy the (Xtian of course) African wimmens was born of Miraculous Concepcion on the shores of Lake Tanganyka, walked north, strolled up Kilimanjaro (explaining anything about Himalayas) accelerated downhill, strolled across the deserts of Sudan and Egypt, across the Red Sea, the Arabian desert, stayed a few weeks in Baghdad, crossed the Iranian desert, the Baluchistan coast, crossed the desert into Sindh, went north for a bit to stay in Mohenjodaro and Harappa, put in a suggestion that they build some porta-potties, sewers and make beads and Seals, floated on an inner-tube down the Indus, walked through the Rann of Kutch, down the Gujarat coast, stayed a while in Bollywood, vacationed in the buff (actually she was in the buff all the way) on the Goa Beach, down the Konkan coast, Marxist Leninist Maoist Party HQ at Kannur, down to south Kerala where she decided to settle down and pass on the Bird Calls Of Africa to the locals.

THAT is the present theory of the Westerners. IOW, Indian civilization and the Rg Veda arose from African Bird Calls. Eventually the Bavarians came by after a vacation in Ukraine and Crimea, over the Khyber Pass in their horse-drawn chariots and settled down in the Paki Poonjab where they composed the Vedas in Sanskrit which they imported from Bavaria - after driving away the dark-skinned Heathains to the south.

To bust this nonsense, one cannot sit with one's thumb up any Wakzoo as distinguished Vedic Experts do, and claim that It Is All In Da Vedas - Go Read It. Explanations comprehensible to modern-day aam hyoomans are necessary, or SD is heading for utter destruction as surely as those Vedas that the ancient Injuns of the Americas and the Ab-orjains in Australia.

The lessons of the Avataras are very valid. The first one (Matsya Avatara) is

Do Not Let The Rakshasas Take Away the Vedas: It Takes Thousands of Years to Win Them Back, even after continuous fighting.

The Rakshasas HAVE taken the Vedas today. The Devas are happily giving them away to the Rakshasas - see most recent.

Maharishi Frawley's declaration sounds all grand (Modern civilization is not the ultimate in knowledge) but ignores the real problem: The Vedas may have survived through the ages by just keeping a lo profile, but today that option does not exist.
****************

[UlanBatori]

I can understand that the original info was conveyed via sound because it is a good, lasting means of conveying info. Frogs do it, apes do it, birds do it, volcanos do it, the sky and wind and trees and waterfalls do it. The trouble with this is the very limited range of frequencies.

The other side is that repetition in a prescribed manner with some prescribed changes, is needed to convey the full info. This is the way to extend the frequency range down to very low frequencies: exact repetition occurs only once every few hours, maybe. The high-frequency content comes from the "bird call" sounds?

But all this is still quite a small range of frequencies. The beauty of the mechanism is that the info is not in the aural perception of the sound, it is in the vibrations and neural signals induced in the body itself by the act of producing the sounds. NOW the range of frequencies includes the tectonic, acoustic, ultrasonic, into the full electromagnetics regime all the way to X-rays and beyond. It allows Direct Memory Access into the brain, for arbitrary content and knowledge. So the instruction is not "mimic this sound", it is

do this in the right way, and we will know that it is right by the sound produced.

The sound is merely the external diagnostic printout or oscilloscope signal that the right processes are underway in the body and mind, if they are properly prepared for the experience.

This explains the claim that proper recitation of the Sounds after proper preparation of the body and mind, conveys knowledge: the code is not in the sounds but in the feelings induced in the body and brain by the chanting of the sounds.

Witlez et al can Lingustically Decode till the cows come home to Harvard, but cannot hope to decode the thoughts and feelings induced by that route. This was communication done at a time when the notion of conveying large amounts of info by writing code with one's fingers, or reading that code with one's eyes, was not in vogue.

When the method of writing and organized language became available, it became possible to communicate without all the extensive System Preparation and aural feedback. This was the form that eventually became the Samsrtam form of the Vedas, with the UpaNishads.

This is a good realization: it now explains how the Sruti was conveyed to other life-forms as well. The sounds that they utter or emanate may not be like those from humans, but the knowledge and thoughts and wisdom triggered in them by making those sounds, may be the key.

This fits in with the general 4-level classification of Perceived Universe, Thoughts, Subconscious and the Atman. There is conscious and subconscious knowledge conveyed by uttering the Vedas.

[UlanBatori]

JohneeG:

On the question of Modern Science vs. Vedic Knowledge. I do not for a moment claim that Modern Science is anywhere near reaching even a small subset of all the knowledge, much less the wisdom, of SD. However, Modern Science is the best way available to us to build up knowledge based on a firm set of rules relating facts and physical phenomena. Things that cannot be explained by Modern Science (as one understands it today) must be skipped over for the present, until they can be explained. Not rejected, but skipped over. They may make sense later on, e.g., my realization above that the information conveyed by the "sounds" of the Vedas is actually what is subconsciously induced in the body and mind. Now I need not waste time trying to decode the Fourier series or the external sounds, without a full acoustic and neuro System Identification model of at least the physical body. IOW, I need not waste time.

The beauty of SD is that it is NOT inconsistent with modern science at all. The science of how thoughts and mental knowledge are triggered through the body, is just beginning to develop. So that oral-aural-acousto-neuro System Identification is still very far away. Eventually it must get down to what changes at molecular model.

The Creation Came From Nothing model is fine with science: All this stuff about Big Bang Theory gets tied up in itself with the question of what came B4 Da Big Bang. That gets into Cyclical Time, and Other Dimensions. The Pissikists at that point grow beards and retreat to their caves just like the Vedic Experts and claim Knowledge Unexplainable to Mere Mortals. Then they write ever weirder articles in Scientific American. All bs.

That the human body itself is an Outrageously Nonlinear System that responds in strange ways to external inputs, is of course known, and both Yindoo and Chinese medicine have propagated treatments based on this. "Western" medicine is just beginning to go there, starting from the very basic linear cause-effect models based on material properties and now observations of molecular chemistry and gene behavior. A very loooong way to go before predicting the nonlinear responses of a full System. And this System has independent power sources and quasi-independent sub-systems and sub-sub-systems down to atomic level or even smaller. Modern studies of Systems of Systems are only beginning to scratch the surface.

Someone recently UpaNishaded me recently over Fridin-night samosas at a desi get-together, about the work of Robert Wright at Princeton, having watched a Coursera MOOC on Buddhism and Piskology. Apparently Wright's take is that GB concluded that the sorrows etc that we feel are just internally generated, and are just one screen generated by the internal computer: they do not represent the entire computer. IOW, the mind can equally generate a different screen that looks happy, if it can overcome the powerful forces driving it to keep focusing on the Sorrow screen. The power to overcome these forces, and become immune, is the goal of meditation, and True Salvation is where the mind can recognize that all these are mere small perturbations. Wright's interest is in piskology, so he is at least trying to learn from this, and see how to teach ppl to overcome sorrows by learning to control their minds. THERE's Modern Science attempting to gain some gyan.

Likewise, Darwin's Evolution stuff relates basically to the development of species under some external stimuli, but it is very empirical. The role of the intelligence and gyan of species is far too difficult to model, so Evolution focuses on stimulus-response of systems with large numbers of elements, under very controlled conditions. It is not inconsistent at all with a real Creation concept, but it is way too narrow to explain all of Nature.

So getting back to the beginning of this post, Evolution may be one of those "firm sets of rules" on which Modern Science builds, but it may turn out that all this is a house of sand built not on permanent bedrock, but on the back of a Turtle during a brief interlude when the Turtle visits the surface. But we have to build somewhere to stay in practice, it is "in our genes".

Come to think of it, the Turtle metaphor succinctly describes what one would see if a huge rocky island rises out of the ocean during a very violent tectonic event, carrying the mountainous center of the island.

[UlanBatori]

Now on Tectonics and Archaeology: these are very difficult fields and even less advanced than the others. Experiments are not easy: you have to find places and items that are relevant, and go there on expensive trips wearing knickers and British Army Pith Helmets (If u Pith into it You can't Mith). See the link to Real Archaeology for proper mental preparation.

Most archaeology consists of digging up a piece of clay with a notch on it, and building up a whole civilization and "history" around it. These ppl claim forensic skills beyond those of any forensic pathologist, but I have my doubts. Their history education after all, comes from the history teachers and the prejudice and superstition is thus built into their models.

As for tectonics, I still wonder what was around when the Big Asteroid crashed into the (present) Gulf of Mexico, and there MUST have been a super-impact in the middle of what is now Afghanistan (look at Google Satellite maps of Afghanistan and you will see what I mean).

To me it appears very credible that these impacts may have been severe enough to move the continental plates very significantly. There must have been 'quakes like the Mother of All Quakes, resulting in any number of phenomena whose descriptions would be mind-boggling. Walls of water 1000 feet high? Mountains rising out of the ocean? Volcanic eruptions that lit up, poisoned and darkened the sky, yet generated new life afterwards? Mass extinctions, sudden shifts in evolution?

Do we know who was watching, and can we be sure that they did not pass on the knowledge of these events in a form that they could pass on? These may have nothing to do ultimately, with Creation, but would have been interpreted as truly Events Beyond Comprehension.

IOW, the context of the Puranas may include segments that were passed down from an age where geography was nothing like it is now.

[KLP Dubey]

Can someone post here the exact content (beginning 10 lines) of the Rg Veda? No explanations, just the content.

The content cannot be "posted" since Veda "written in a script" has no meaning to it. The entire Rgveda is available in recorded form online (albeit with a few defects of articulation). You can go find it, download it, perform Fourier Transforms, or do any other analysis that you feel like.

Instead of writing long posts with hardly any useful content, it would be better to start studying the basics properly. It is not as if you are the first person to study Veda and its auxiliaries. If you want to posit questions regarding Veda, Vedanga, and Mimansa, I am prepared to discuss them. Otherwise I am not interested. Here again is the gist: unless you are able to articulate the Veda yourself and understand its phonetics, grammar, meter, etc, all "intellectual" study and internet discussions are meaningless. Why waste your (presumably precious) time ?

THAT is the present theory of the Westerners. IOW, Indian civilization and the Rg Veda arose from African Bird Calls. Eventually the Bavarians came by after a vacation in Ukraine and Crimea, over the Khyber Pass in their horse-drawn chariots and settled down in the Paki Poonjab where they composed the Vedas in Sanskrit which they imported from Bavaria - after driving away the dark-skinned Heathains to the south.

To bust this nonsense, one cannot sit with one's thumb up any Wakzoo as distinguished Vedic Experts do, and claim that It Is All In Da Vedas - Go Read It. Explanations comprehensible to modern-day aam hyoomans are necessary, or SD is heading for utter destruction as surely as those Vedas that the ancient Injuns of the Americas and the Ab-orjains in Australia.

You have perhaps missed the whole point. I have never said that "all the correct history is the Veda - go read it". Please read carefully: There is NO history or geography, or any specific connection to the human race or culture - in the Veda. The only useful purpose of studying Veda is to propagate dharma (i.e. upholding the World-Order) through replication of Vedic sounds and performance of Yajnas according to injunctions). The Veda is the only correct and reliable means of upholding Dharma.

If you do not believe in either of these objectives, do not study the Veda unless you want to join the club of the many westerners with more time to spare than good sense. If you want to counter AIT history, counter it with historical evidence and leave Veda alone.

If you want to counter Witzelian (and Talagerian) nonsense, take a different approach.

1) Use recent advances in genetics, archaeology etc to trace the spread of Sanskrit-speakers from India to other parts of the world.

2) Even linguistics can help - all you have to do is replace all the supposed "Proto-Indo-European" roots in Pokorny's "PIE dictionary" with Sanskrit roots and show consistently that all other languages can be described as corruptions from Sanskrit words. This will counter the need to posit some hypothetical (non-existent) "PIE" supposedly originating somewhere in central asia. You seem to have a lot of time on your hands, so why not do it ? I do not have the time, unfortunately.

[UlanBatori]

The content cannot be "posted" since Veda "written in a script" has no meaning to it. The entire Rgveda is available in recorded form online (albeit with a few defects of articulation). You can go find it, download it, perform Fourier Transforms, or do any other analysis that you feel like.

If it is already posted online, then first few lines can be excerpted and posted by anyone with elementary competence. Saying "it is there, go find it" usually means: "I am 404". Thanks. Welcome to the club.

[member_22872]

On Words, sounds in the Vedas and their eternal nature:
This is what Jaimini has to say -




Words were important, not sounds, because according to Jaimini, words are eternal not sounds.

[JE Menon]

I'm using my admin privileges to demand a ceasefire. Observing generally, and not with anyone in mind particularly, there is much to be gained by civil discussion. I would humbly request that the nuggets of information and thought vectors that have emerged already from the discussion not be lost in acrimonious exchange please. It really is a useful discussion.

[RajeshA]

Please read carefully: There is NO history or geography, or any specific connection to the human race or culture - in the Veda. The only useful purpose of studying Veda is to propagate dharma (i.e. upholding the World-Order) through replication of Vedic sounds and performance of Yajnas according to injunctions). The Veda is the only correct and reliable means of upholding Dharma.

If you do not believe in either of these objectives, do not study the Veda unless you want to join the club of the many westerners with more time to spare than good sense. If you want to counter AIT history, counter it with historical evidence and leave Veda alone.

If you want to counter Witzelian (and Talagerian) nonsense, take a different approach.

1) Use recent advances in genetics, archaeology etc to trace the spread of Sanskrit-speakers from India to other parts of the world.

2) Even linguistics can help - all you have to do is replace all the supposed "Proto-Indo-European" roots in Pokorny's "PIE dictionary" with Sanskrit roots and show consistently that all other languages can be described as corruptions from Sanskrit words. This will counter the need to posit some hypothetical (non-existent) "PIE" supposedly originating somewhere in central asia. You seem to have a lot of time on your hands, so why not do it ? I do not have the time, unfortunately.

KLP Dubey ji,

in the beginning, we two also had a debate on this.

My current thinking is:

1) One should concede "cultural ownership" of some cultural heritage to those who have been most ardent preservers of it, as long as they are not "imposing" that cultural heritage onto others.

That means only these "Cultural Preservers" have read/write access to that cultural heritage. However as the goal is to preserve, "write" access is not availed even by them. However with such admin rights, they have the ultimate say in how their "cultural heritage" is to be recognized and interpreted. All others have "read" access only, or in some cases "hear" access only.

If the Mimamsaks say that Vedas are eternal and without author, then others should respect that. Others should not barge in and try to tell the "Cultural Preservers" how these things need to be understood, nor should they proceed in taking the Vedas apart as and how it suits them.

The Vedas may belong to whole humankind, but those who have done their utmost in preserving them over the millennia deserve special consideration.

2) There are those of European Thought pedigree, otherwise known as AIT-Nazis, who have violated the above mentioned consideration and have misused and indeed abused the Vedas to make a case for Aryan Horses (AIT, AMT) and thereby done grave damage to the history of Bharat and Bharatiyas.

The damage is mind you over and above that inflicted on the "Vedas Preservers" and extends to all Bharatiyas.

Now in order to counter that damage, Bharatiyas are having to resort to pointing out the fallacies of AIT-Nazis, however in doing so, these "Itihaas Correctors" have to refer to Vedas themselves, and thus end up violating the "Admin rights" of the "Vedas Preservers".

So I would resort to the tool of "Even if the Vedas were to be understood as Sanskrit texts having historical and geographical information, as AIT-Nazis make them out to be, but is not borne out by the traditional school, even then ...".

This is a hypothetical construct and by no means a case to promote some ultimate truth about the Vedas or any particular period in the history of Bharatiyas.

It is a means, a tool, to counter AIT-Nazis! Just that!

My 2 paisa onlee!

[JE Menon]

The beauty of the mechanism is that the info is not in the aural perception of the sound, it is in the vibrations and neural signals induced in the body itself by the act of producing the sounds. NOW the range of frequencies includes the tectonic, acoustic, ultrasonic, into the full electromagnetics regime all the way to X-rays and beyond. It allows Direct Memory Access into the brain, for arbitrary content and knowledge. So the instruction is not "mimic this sound", it is

do this in the right way, and we will know that it is right by the sound produced.

The sound is merely the external diagnostic printout or oscilloscope signal that the right processes are underway in the body and mind, if they are properly prepared for the experience.

This explains the claim that proper recitation of the Sounds after proper preparation of the body and mind, conveys knowledge: the code is not in the sounds but in the feelings induced in the body and brain by the chanting of the sounds.

For me, this is a stunning insight ... never heard the above articulated with this clarity anywhere else. Has it actually been? We might be talking a totally different way of looking at the world, so to speak, or rather a way of listening to the world...

Please, continue the stream of thought.

[Satya_anveshi]

^^ JEM ji, that is an everyday small talk among certain community in desh who do and ask their kith, kin, and everyone who comes in their contact to practice a japa, a mantra, a stotram, a shastram and/or the whole enchilada.