Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr 2014

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 16 Jun 2014 02:00

Killing with impunity: Four women, one man killed for ‘honour’

MULTAN: Five people were murdered in so-called honour killings and four were murdered over property

on Saturday.Cheers

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jun 2014 04:12

sunnyP wrote:Wonder how this will end up?

“The operation has been named Zarb-e-Azb,” it said.

Why, it will end up in the same way Rah-e-Haq, Rah-e-Raast, Rah-e-Nijat ended up. In failure and Peace Deals with the Taliban.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jun 2014 07:27

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ Shiv,
Once the Pakistanis find their irrational fears to be rational and well-founded, they may then turn even more irrational. <snip>

If your adversary makes you change your own character, for the worse, as the response to your adversary, then you may win physically, but you have really lost.

I'll put it a third way, if Islamic invaders kidnapped, raped and converted Hindu women, and now fear that Hindus will do that to them; and we depart from Shivaji's policy and behavior and instead kidnap, rape and convert Muslim women, making those fears true, then we have somehow improved the situation.

What is the fundamental fight? It is to be true to our values, our dharma,.

Interesting viewpoint, but wrong, with overemphasis on one's internal state and an dangerously suicidal ignoring of how external pressure can chip away and ultimately weaken the body that seeks to maintain that internal state.

Pakistanis do not have to "find that their fears are well founded" at some future date. It is not as if Pakistanis are pretending to consider us as monsters and waiting for confirmation. They are already convinced that they are right and that their fears are well founded. Nothing that we do, by action or inaction, can make them feel that their fears are ill founded. We (India) already are everything that they accuse us of being. they are already at war with that monster that they think we are for they believe that perpetual war will tame the monster that we are

By trying desperately hard not to be the monster that Pakis already think we are - we have gained nothing. We have allowed Pakistanis to perpetuate the civilizational war that they have set up precisely because we have not fought to say that they are wrong and not punished them for their wrongs. We have only confirmed to them their delusion that we do not and cannot fight back because we are weak and wrong.

I think you have made a grave error in ignoring a fundamental issue in all conflict of any type anywhere, let alone the Pakistan-India conflict. All conflicts can be settled by negotiation and compromise provided violence is not used. The minute one side decides to use violence, negotiation becomes pointless. Pakistan imposes violence because they see us as monsters. When India does not respond to that violence, you are wrong in assuming that Pakistanis see "maturity and civility" in India - an impression that will somehow be spoiled if we use violence. They do not see it that way. They see weakness of resolve and a confirmation that their violence is appropriate against an enemy who is a monster.

Violence needs to be imposed on Pakistan. That violence can come by legitimate means available to the Indian state. It need not be rape and pillage. By imposing violence on them their view of us is not going to change. We are already the worst kind of monsters. But that worst kind of monster has to cause them pain. Not causing them pain only encourages them. They have to be taught that violence will only get them violence. Violence must first end. After that we can talk about each other's civilizational values, such as exist.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 16 Jun 2014 07:27

Much rah rah of dubious credibility

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 16 Jun 2014 07:28

Thinking out aloud: Is KSA perhaps very scared because Iran is much closer to achieving the nuclear bomb than what people care to admit in the media. Obama met Abdullah a few months ago and then, there was secret shipment of arms to the Syrian rebels. And they secretly made their way to the Iraq based ISIS faction. is there a link between all of this?

This is becoming a full blown Sunni Shia proxy war. I think the US will push for a quicker resolution with Iran. Don't think KSA is going to be a primary power in the region in a few years from now. They have only themselves and their sheer idiocy to blame. Funding global terrorism and jihad comes back to bite the owner too sometimes. Regardless of how careful one is.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jun 2014 07:35

svinayak wrote: The sole purpose of State of Pakistan is to reduce the land of the Dharma. The main focus is on reducing the society of dharma , physical space of geography and remove the history of the land.

It is a profound error to equate dharma with ahimsa. I believe that we, as a class of Indian who have acquired an essentially modern education, who try hard to reach back to our roots, have deluded ourselves that dharma is linked with ahimsa.

Ahimsa cannot be a response to a physical attack. I find that we use the word dharma far more than our ability to list the tenets of dharma and not mix it up with Buddhist dhamma as propagated at one time in Indian history. Ashoka imposed ahimsa from a position of power. Ahimsa cannot work from a position of weakness.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 16 Jun 2014 07:36

Hakimji
All accepted but this

Pakistan imposes violence because they see us as monsters

Pakistan imposes violence because they have only one mechanism as prescribed with demonstrations/examples from the past. Whether it has achieved them (or anybody) anything is beyond their abilities to analyze and learn from is beyond their range.
I wonder even if their forefathers saw any kaffirs as monsters. It was just kaffirs that is all. No other quality need to be attributed to the other party for them to treat the kaffirs as prescribed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jun 2014 07:57

kenop wrote:Hakimji
All accepted but this
Pakistan imposes violence because they see us as monsters
Pakistan imposes violence because they have only one mechanism as prescribed with demonstrations/examples from the past. Whether it has achieved them (or anybody) anything is beyond their abilities to analyze and learn from is beyond their range.
I wonder even if their forefathers saw any kaffirs as monsters. It was just kaffirs that is all. No other quality need to be attributed to the other party for them to treat the kaffirs as prescribed.

Absolutely correct assessment. I believe this difference is merely semantic. Islamic texts do not have the word "monster" but all the attributes of kafirs correspond with any attributes that you might want to ascribe to a monster. Kafirs are monsters, to be treated as such. And a kafir/mosnter who does not hit back is one who is seeing the error of his ways and is on the back foot, because the righteous Pakis who are fighting the monster are getting away with violence.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 16 Jun 2014 08:21

Shiv,

a. Nobody equated dharma with ahimsa. When one thinks of "what teaches dharma?" the classical text is the Mahabharata, a huge section of which is about war.

b. The example of the US comes to mind. The response to 9/11 was not some temporary measures (like mobilization and economic controls like rationing for WW2) but a permanent surveillance state with various curtailments of civil liberties. OBL may be no more, but really al Qaeda has had the better of the war so far.

c. India needs to do what is appropriate in a situation; but I take your post from long-ago to mean that India should go out of its way to make Pakistan's fears from irrational to rational.

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 16 Jun 2014 08:40

sunnyP wrote:Wonder how this will end up?

ISLAMABAD: On the directions of the government, the Pakistan Army has launched a comprehensive operation against foreign and local terrorists who are hiding in sanctuaries in North Waziristan Agency, said an Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) statement on Sunday.

“The operation has been named Zarb-e-Azb,” it said.
http://www.dawn.com/news/1112909/pakist ... waziristan

In my perfect world, I can picture the head terrorist in a cave launching a counter operation to the Puki Army's operation and calling it Barb-e-Azz.

-M

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jun 2014 08:42

A_Gupta wrote: c. India needs to do what is appropriate in a situation; but I take your post from long-ago to mean that India should go out of its way to make Pakistan's fears from irrational to rational.

You have interpreted that post exactly right.

But that post was dealing with the question of handling an entire nation with a paranoid attitude towards India.

An individual human who is paranoid has a serious psychiatric issue. He sees demons where demons do not exist. Whatever therapy is aimed at this individual, he will need physical restriction if he gets violent. Physical restriction will not stop him from seeing demons, but it will reduce the damage he does to himself and others.

This way of handling an individual cannot be applied to an entire nation that displays paranoid behaviour. Pakistan is a country of largely rational people who have been indoctrinated using Islamic principles to regard India with a degree of irrational fear or paranoia. That fear will continue no matter what our behaviour might be. Pakistani paranoia is independent of Indian behaviour. Pakistani paranoia will not get worse if we change our response to Pakistan. But Pakistani paranoia is damaging to India in some ways. We may be able to tolerate propaganda and even economic subversion. But physical attacks should not be tolerated. They should be punished by reducing Pakistani ability and resolve to hit back. If you saw the Monty Python "Black Knight" video - the Knight loses both arms and both legs and still wants to fight, and calls people cowards for not fighting him any more.

The twin advantages of punishing Pakistan is that if they continue to be paranoid after their ability to hit is reduced - that paranoia will be harmless. If they become rational after punishment - it will be beneficial to us because they will have felt pain. Both ways there is an advantage in causing Pakistan pain.

If we do not cause them pain we will never know whether there is rationality behind a veneer of irrationality and we will never be doing what needs to be done to reduce their ability and will to hit us. We are rewarding their irrationality.

The US example you quote is interesting. The US rewarded Pakistani irrationality and is paying the price. Al Qaeda was nothing without Pakistan and Pakistan has been rewarded. Al Qaeda remains undefeated. Pakistan is the problem, as is US inability to see right from wrong.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jun 2014 09:07

One question I would like to look at is whether the US can do anything at all in Pakistan that will benefit India. The short answer is NO.

Whatever the US does or does not do in Pakistan, the ultimate victors will be a sunni force of India haters. Whether the Taliban win or whether the Pakistani army prevail - it means the same thing for India.

The US now has its hand firmly stuck in the cookie jar. It cannot let Pakistan go and will continue to feed the Pakistani army. The US genuinely believes that the Pakistan army is a moderate, secular, pro American force that must be made to win by hook or by crook.

It would have been nice if the US did not take sides with this hate filled sunni force and made things worse for India by arming them, but we in India have been coping with the consequences of that for 60 plus years and we simply have to grit our teeth and carry on.

But Pakistanis as nation will not see any benefit of peace with India as long as a state of war with India is beneficial to them No effort at normalization changes their perpetual state of war with India. . If their state of war is rewarded by efforts at peace and normalization, they are not feeling enough pain. Now that Pakistan faces civil war in the west, this is the time to ramp up pressure in the east and make things difficult for them. It is perfectly right to take advantage of Pakistan's predicament and is stupid not to do that. The US will take the side of the Pakistani army no matter what and apart from that we can exclude the US from the calculation. They will do nothing that benefits India.

For Pakistan to see any benefit of peace from India, it must first face real hostility from India rather than the imagined hostility they see while India bends over backwards to remain peaceable. Pakistan must feel real pain, not imagined pain - and particularly the Pakistani army should feel that pain specifically. But it is not possible to punish the Paki army without punishing the Paki people. It would be wrong to express sympathy for Pakistani common man while claiming to fight the army. Both will necessarily have to feel pain.

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 16 Jun 2014 09:54

PakiSatanis doing their thing in Birmingham:

'GET RID OF THE WHITE KIDS' SAY PAKISTANI PARENTS AS CAMERON URGES BRITISH VALUES

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 16 Jun 2014 09:55

^^ all said and done, Pak only does the training / indoctrination etc. They simply don't have the money to fund large scale terrorist cells. Or so it seems. Funding comes from a different entity. US / KSA mostly. As long as the funding source is cut, that should be a good way to stop terror. And I am sure that US will have enough intelligence to know whats what. Its just that they wont act as it isn't in their best interests.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jun 2014 10:17

vijaykarthik wrote:^^ all said and done, Pak only does the training / indoctrination etc. They simply don't have the money to fund large scale terrorist cells. Or so it seems. Funding comes from a different entity. US / KSA mostly. As long as the funding source is cut, that should be a good way to stop terror. And I am sure that US will have enough intelligence to know whats what. Its just that they wont act as it isn't in their best interests.

Pakistan has plenty of money for large scale terror/asymmetric war. They are giving the US a run for its money. They do not have money for F-16s, AMRAAMs and Orion aircraft. The US pays them for that.

Either way, India can do nothing about the US and our fight is with Pakistan alone, no matter what the US does. if we can make Pakistan act against what the US perceives as its US interests it would be to our advantage. But even if we can't do that it is in our interests to punish Pakistan. if that is against US interests so much the better - it will help us learn to depend on us rather than think about what the US might or might not do. In the long term India and the US will be on a collision course over many issues. This is just one old, traditional issue.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 16 Jun 2014 10:20

JE Menon wrote: Haqqani (he of the terror threats against India, not the Haqqani who threatens Americans).

Hussain Haqqani had issued threats against India ?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 16 Jun 2014 10:32

^^

1. It may be that India adopting a hostile stance towards Pakistan is, as A_Gupta argues, unlikely to make Pakistan more manageable. The question to ask is, will it, in fact, make it less manageable, and if the answer is yes, are there any benefits to India that offset the reduced manageability and increased risk?

2. A_Gupta seems to be implying that Hindus have only two options--be "sugar dumplings" as shiv says, or go around raping Muslim women and murdering their children as a matter of policy, as presumably the Pakistanis intend to do to Hindus. One obvious response to this is to point out that there are a vast range of options to convey hostility, should India decide to do that.

3. A_Gupta raises the concern that we would lose our civilizational core by "giving the Pakis something to be paranoid about" as it were; underlying this concern is the premise that that "something" will be some form of rape and murder of innnocents; even a moment's thought will show that this to be an untenable premise. (Just to spell it out, I am not really looking to do the strawman thing here & score points, just taking the opportunity to drill down into moral and practical issues in India-Pakistan relations, that have interested me for some time.)

4. A key question that I haven't seen raised is, whether eschewing hostility towards Pakistan levies a price on our civilization by eroding its core values by default--take compassion and magnanimity for instance. By never raising our voice and taking up arms against a state and culture that has explicitly declared war on those virtues, are we not devaluing those virtues in our collective social organism?

Generally speaking, I am amazed both by just how much Pakistan seems to have enshrined the Seven Deadly Sins or the Six Categories of Enemies (ari-shad-vargas), and just how little we seem to notice this.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 16 Jun 2014 10:32

shiv wrote:You have interpreted that post exactly right.

But that post was dealing with the question of handling an entire nation with a paranoid attitude towards India.

An individual human who is paranoid has a serious psychiatric issue. He sees demons where demons do not exist. Whatever therapy is aimed at this individual, he will need physical restriction if he gets violent. Physical restriction will not stop him from seeing demons, but it will reduce the damage he does to himself and others.

This way of handling an individual cannot be applied to an entire nation that displays paranoid behaviour. Pakistan is a country of largely rational people who have been indoctrinated using Islamic principles to regard India with a degree of irrational fear or paranoia. That fear will continue no matter what our behaviour might be. Pakistani paranoia is independent of Indian behaviour. Pakistani paranoia will not get worse if we change our response to Pakistan. But Pakistani paranoia is damaging to India in some ways. We may be able to tolerate propaganda and even economic subversion. But physical attacks should not be tolerated. They should be punished by reducing Pakistani ability and resolve to hit back. If you saw the Monty Python "Black Knight" video - the Knight loses both arms and both legs and still wants to fight, and calls people cowards for not fighting him any more.

The twin advantages of punishing Pakistan is that if they continue to be paranoid after their ability to hit is reduced - that paranoia will be harmless. If they become rational after punishment - it will be beneficial to us because they will have felt pain. Both ways there is an advantage in causing Pakistan pain.

If we do not cause them pain we will never know whether there is rationality behind a veneer of irrationality and we will never be doing what needs to be done to reduce their ability and will to hit us. We are rewarding their irrationality.

The US example you quote is interesting. The US rewarded Pakistani irrationality and is paying the price. Al Qaeda was nothing without Pakistan and Pakistan has been rewarded. Al Qaeda remains undefeated. Pakistan is the problem, as is US inability to see right from wrong.

India doesn't have any way of imposing long term pain on Pakistan. Exactly what do you propose India does that we haven't done in 1947, 62, 71, Kargil etc ? We have a way to punish them in a localized fashion in time and space. That's it. You might as well accept that fact and stop pretending we're not doing something because of dharma or ahimsa. On the other hand we can and should create and nurture our own patronage network inside Pakistan. Access to the Indian market is the only ace we have in our pack.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 16 Jun 2014 10:33

SSridhar wrote:
sunnyP wrote:Wonder how this will end up?

.........
Why, it will end up in the same way Rah-e-Haq, Rah-e-Raast, Rah-e-Nijat ended up. In failure and Peace Deals with the Taliban.

Rah-e-Nijat, Rah-e-Rast,
Pakfauj ko lagey dast

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 16 Jun 2014 10:35

KrishnaK wrote:
shiv wrote:You have interpreted that post exactly right.

But that post was dealing with the question of handling an entire nation with a paranoid attitude towards India.

An individual human who is paranoid has a serious psychiatric issue. He sees demons where demons do not exist. Whatever therapy is aimed at this individual, he will need physical restriction if he gets violent. Physical restriction will not stop him from seeing demons, but it will reduce the damage he does to himself and others.

This way of handling an individual cannot be applied to an entire nation that displays paranoid behaviour. Pakistan is a country of largely rational people who have been indoctrinated using Islamic principles to regard India with a degree of irrational fear or paranoia. That fear will continue no matter what our behaviour might be. Pakistani paranoia is independent of Indian behaviour. Pakistani paranoia will not get worse if we change our response to Pakistan. But Pakistani paranoia is damaging to India in some ways. We may be able to tolerate propaganda and even economic subversion. But physical attacks should not be tolerated. They should be punished by reducing Pakistani ability and resolve to hit back. If you saw the Monty Python "Black Knight" video - the Knight loses both arms and both legs and still wants to fight, and calls people cowards for not fighting him any more.

The twin advantages of punishing Pakistan is that if they continue to be paranoid after their ability to hit is reduced - that paranoia will be harmless. If they become rational after punishment - it will be beneficial to us because they will have felt pain. Both ways there is an advantage in causing Pakistan pain.

If we do not cause them pain we will never know whether there is rationality behind a veneer of irrationality and we will never be doing what needs to be done to reduce their ability and will to hit us. We are rewarding their irrationality.

The US example you quote is interesting. The US rewarded Pakistani irrationality and is paying the price. Al Qaeda was nothing without Pakistan and Pakistan has been rewarded. Al Qaeda remains undefeated. Pakistan is the problem, as is US inability to see right from wrong.
India doesn't have any way of imposing long term pain on Pakistan. Exactly what do you propose India does that we haven't done in 1947, 62, 71, Kargil etc ? We have a way to punish them in a localized fashion in time and space. That's it. You might as well accept that fact and stop pretending we're not doing something because of dharma or ahimsa. On the other hand we can and should create and nurture our own patronage network inside Pakistan. Access to the Indian market is the only ace we have in our pack.

You are mistaken in thinking that there are only two choices--passivity and war. There is a range of hostile policies that can be adopted and implemented.

habal · Post by **habal** » 16 Jun 2014 10:48

Please do not now discuss on prodding of some US citizen on how we can respond against Pakistan.

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 16 Jun 2014 12:12

Hi to all the BRF gurus,

I would give the job of creating patronages in an enemy country to our intel agencies rather than asking our leaders to give concessions in public. Giving will inevitably end up in asking for more from the other side. I think all this is one of the effects of the Gujaral doctrine. And if we start giving, they will always ask for our neck in a platter. JMT.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jun 2014 12:58

Pakistan Taliban warn foreign firms to leave country amid offensive - ToI

The Chinese should leave now.

The Pakistani Taliban on Monday warned foreign firms to leave the country after thousands of troops launched a long-awaited offensive in a troubled tribal district along the Afghan border.

"We warn all foreign investors, airlines and multinational corporations that they should immediately suspend their ongoing matters with Pakistan and prepare to leave Pakistan, otherwise they will be responsible for their own loss," said spokesman Shahidullah Shahid in a statement.

It came one week after brazen insurgent attack on Pakistan's main airport in Karachi which left dozens dead and marked the end of a troubled peace process. The Islamist group also vowed to take revenge on the government.

"We hold Nawaz Sharif's government and the Punjabi establishment responsible for the loss of tribal Muslims' life and property as a result of this operation," the statement said.

"The retaliatory actions of the Mujahedeen will make you a cautionary tale in history."

Shahid added that the Taliban would "burn your palaces in Islamabad and Lahore" referring to the capital city and Sharif's hometown, from where he derives his support base.

"Remember that you will once again crave for negotiations and peace, but then it would be too late," {AoA} he added.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 16 Jun 2014 13:55

SSridhar wrote: The Chinese should leave now.

The fun starts now! In recent times, immediately after a Chinese person got kidnapped in Pak or after every islamic terror incidents in china, Pak airforce bombed some goats in Waziristan. We didnt discuss in detail the impact of Chinese pressure on Pak army to act against Taliban. While Pakis can play games against gullible Americans, Chinese are not so easily fooled. Didnt the infamous Lal Masjid operation was motivated by Chinese pressure after Chinese massage girls were abducted / threatened by Mullahs? My guess is that the Talibs may not say it openly but they hate Chipanda as much as they hate Uncle.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 16 Jun 2014 14:41

shiv wrote:
vijaykarthik wrote:^^ all said and done, Pak only does the training / indoctrination etc. They simply don't have the money to fund large scale terrorist cells. Or so it seems. Funding comes from a different entity. US / KSA mostly. As long as the funding source is cut, that should be a good way to stop terror. And I am sure that US will have enough intelligence to know whats what. Its just that they wont act as it isn't in their best interests.
Pakistan has plenty of money for large scale terror/asymmetric war. They are giving the US a run for its money. They do not have money for F-16s, AMRAAMs and Orion aircraft. The US pays them for that.

Either way, India can do nothing about the US and our fight is with Pakistan alone, no matter what the US does. if we can make Pakistan act against what the US perceives as its US interests it would be to our advantage. But even if we can't do that it is in our interests to punish Pakistan. if that is against US interests so much the better - it will help us learn to depend on us rather than think about what the US might or might not do. In the long term India and the US will be on a collision course over many issues. This is just one old, traditional issue.

Mm, how? At least I fail to see it. For a country to have spare cash to fund 'these' kinds of activities, they need to grow YoY, be innovative, have large productive advantages and have a comparative advantage in something. Factors of efficiencies that can be grown and improved over time ruthlessly. Objectively speaking, Pak does poorly on all the factors. Which shows in their economic indicators and their numbers till date -- they just don't cut it. If that were the case, how do you feel that they have spare cash and have opportunities to fund stupid ideals like terrorism and the like. Lets remember that its far cheaper and easier to help in terrorism as long as there is funding --> Pak does this really well. [They perhaps have a huge comparative advantage there, economically speaking?]. But absent funding, at least I feel that Pak cant keep at this business for long. At least mathematically, I see Pak as a basket case. There doesn't seem great evidence for funding this terrorist perennially all by themselves unless they actually plan to eat grass like their leader once famously mentioned to get the nuclear bomb.

There is another alternative: they can keep printing till the printing machine breaks down... but the massive increase in money supply will kill them (by being inflationary and thereby also killing the economy; its productivity and comparative advantages) if not their home grown terrorists. Which will lead to even more destruction of economy. And it will not need an intervention of any external kind -- they will implode all by themselves. If they aren't already. So, whichever way, cut the funding, see a massive reduction in these acts. However, funding cuts is easier said than done. Therein lies the catch.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Jun 2014 14:58

Just loove this blog:
AMonkeyAsha with Taliban

Some samples:

Dr Majorly PhD @majorlyp
Follow

Daily concerns are mundane, like typical city in Pakistan. Lack of Sharia, prevalent jewish conspiracy, rising cost of firearms #TalibanCBM

My armed minder crading his RPG summed it best: "People want peace. It is the Politicians, Media & Army which wants status quo" #TalibanCBM
11:00 AM - 3 Oct 2013

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jun 2014 15:23

vijaykarthik wrote:Mm, how?

vijaykarthik, shiv can give his answer. But, your thinking is a sane person's thinking. That is not how Pakistan functions because it is not only an abominable country but also an abnormal country. They simply reduce budgetary allocations for education and health and allocate that to Army and JuD. Non-state terror tanzeem JuD is supported through budgetary provisions just as state terror tanzeem Pakistani Army is.

James B · Post by **James B** » 16 Jun 2014 15:27

Deeply disturbing news for Pakis - Meat contaminated with the meat of their true compatriots donkeys.

See this video for some amusement especially mohatarma screaming on this contamination.

warning : video includes some halal or Haram of animals

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 16 Jun 2014 15:35

Pajistan's HS&D.Consenting to be belittled

As was clear from the start, the principal Indian objective in inviting Nawaz to a clutch of leaders from South Asian countries was not to make a peace overture to Pakistan

Without the Pakistani prime minister, Modi’s show would have been a farce.

India’s intention in inviting Nawaz was certainly not to honour the Pakistani prime minister but to reduce him to the level of the other South Asian leaders.

Nawaz not only belittled himself by attending that meeting, he also conducted himself throughout his stay in Delhi in a manner which was unbecoming of the prime minister of Pakistan.

Z. A. Bhutto, in comparison, walked with grace and exuberance in Simla, even after the fall of Dhaka and the surrender of 90,000 Pakistani soldiers. He did not let his shoulder droop down

The ‘Subcontinent’ – or even better the ‘Indian Subcontinent’ – is the term favoured by Delhi to describe what is generally known as South Asia. India tries to avoid the designation ‘South Asia’ because it signifies that India is just one of the several states which make up the region. Instead, India prefers – and Pakistan eschews – the term ‘Indian Subcontinent’, or its shorter form ‘the Subcontinent’, because it implies that all the countries of the region fall under Indian overlordship.

By going to Delhi to attend the inauguration of Modi and by the way he conducted himself during the visit, Nawaz consented to be belittled.

Maybe its time to rename Indian Ocean as South Asian Ocean to keep baki HS&D intact.

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 16 Jun 2014 15:45

‘We Will Burn Islamabad and Lahore’

Pakistani Taliban warn government to prepare for the worst, and threaten attacks on Punjab province and federal capital.

The government’s “palaces” in Islamabad and Lahore will soon be burnt to ashes, said the spokesman for the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan following the launch of a military operation in North Waziristan

http://newsweekpakistan.com/we-will-bur ... nd-lahore/

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2014 16:37

Like ISIS/mosul, like Taliban/Wazirstan!
The evil wars begin!

ache din aa gayee.

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 16 Jun 2014 17:30

schinnas wrote:
SSridhar wrote: The Chinese should leave now.
.. My guess is that the Talibs may not say it openly but they hate Chipanda as much as they hate Uncle.

They hate everybody and at some deep level including themselves. I would even argue that if we dig deeper they probably hate PBUH as well.

-M

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 16 Jun 2014 17:35

sunnyP wrote:
‘We Will Burn Islamabad and Lahore’

Pakistani Taliban warn government to prepare for the worst, and threaten attacks on Punjab province and federal capital.

The government’s “palaces” in Islamabad and Lahore will soon be burnt to ashes, said the spokesman for the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan following the launch of a military operation in North Waziristan
http://newsweekpakistan.com/we-will-bur ... nd-lahore/

Why Lahore !!!

What do they have against the 'cultural center of Pukistan' or are they after the Diamonds of heera mandi ? Hain ji?

-M

Nirantar · Post by **Nirantar** » 16 Jun 2014 17:57

In the whole process it's becoming clear that army is becoming more relevant. Taliban kill people. Army kill more taliban plus many innocents. More taliban born and kill more people. Army become saviour. Honestly speaking it's not per our interests. We need to convert back pakjabi to hindu culture and create a buffer between us and taliban. My son plays with slimes. It has tendency to spill here or from there. This whole arab sponsored wahabbi thing is like slime. Tracts from afghan moves to Syria. Displaces from Syria moves to bhagdad. In the next 15 yrs it will head towards fata. Am sure we would want not our jawaans facing the heat but have pakjabi doing dirty job for us.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 16 Jun 2014 18:00

sunnyP wrote:
‘We Will Burn Islamabad and Lahore’

Pakistani Taliban warn government to prepare for the worst, and threaten attacks on Punjab province and federal capital.

The government’s “palaces” in Islamabad and Lahore will soon be burnt to ashes, said the spokesman for the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan following the launch of a military operation in North Waziristan
http://newsweekpakistan.com/we-will-bur ... nd-lahore/

I have no objection to the good/bad/neutral Telebunnies burning anything in Pakistan, but let us be on our guard on the borders and make sure that the Pakistanis don't do a Bangladesh in Rajasthan, Punjab, Gujarat and Jammu and Kashmir when the Telebunnies start burning down their own country. One mismanaged border is sufficient, thank you.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Jun 2014 18:43

KrishnaK wrote:Hussain Haqqani had issued threats against India ?

Yes, in a different avatar, when he was briefly unemployed gainfully - an interval between the Bhutto administration, the brief imprisonment, etc... and he had only his original connections to the ISI to fall back upon... It was in response to the Bangalore IISc attack if I remember right, when in an article he issued a not so subtle threat... I don't have the article but it has been linked on BRF a couple of times in recent years. I'm sure that other watchers of the Pakisatan remember it.

And then he wangled a position as ambassador to the US, and the rest is Hudsoninstitory

cdbatra · Post by **cdbatra** » 16 Jun 2014 18:59

Here is URL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWxDhT3ybUs

Interesting snippet on Ranjit Singh by Baki intellectual

.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jun 2014 19:14

vijaykarthik wrote: Mm, how? At least I fail to see it. For a country to have spare cash to fund 'these' kinds of activities, they need to grow YoY, be innovative, have large productive advantages and have a comparative advantage in something. Factors of efficiencies that can be grown and improved over time ruthlessly. Objectively speaking, Pak does poorly on all the factors. Which shows in their economic indicators and their numbers till date -- they just don't cut it. If that were the case, how do you feel that they have spare cash and have opportunities to fund stupid ideals like terrorism and the like. Lets remember that its far cheaper and easier to help in terrorism as long as there is funding --> Pak does this really well. [They perhaps have a huge comparative advantage there, economically speaking?]. But absent funding, at least I feel that Pak cant keep at this business for long. At least mathematically, I see Pak as a basket case. There doesn't seem great evidence for funding this terrorist perennially all by themselves unless they actually plan to eat grass like their leader once famously mentioned to get the nuclear bomb.

Karthik I put it to you that you simply have not studied enough about Pakistan. Pakistan is a huge country that is pretty much self sufficient in food and produces excess power as long as the power does not have to be distributed to the population. They have had enough power for power hungry Uranium centrifuges for decades.

Pakistan is relatively wealthy - but the wealth is maldistributed because the military has swallowed 25 to 40% of the annual budget for decades. This is well known information with plenty of published sources. Itis education and health and civilian infrastructure that have not received the funds they should have got.

Without US funding Pakistan can keep up terrorism for a long time - but the army, which has the hardware (from the US) to face up to the Indian armed forces will get weaker. The US is not going to stop funding the army so terrorism is set to continue for the time being.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jun 2014 19:21

KrishnaK wrote:India doesn't have any way of imposing long term pain on Pakistan. Exactly what do you propose India does that we haven't done in 1947, 62, 71, Kargil etc ? We have a way to punish them in a localized fashion in time and space. That's it. You might as well accept that fact and stop pretending we're not doing something because of dharma or ahimsa. On the other hand we can and should create and nurture our own patronage network inside Pakistan. Access to the Indian market is the only ace we have in our pack.

How about stopping talks and peace initiatives? How about stopping the pretence that Pakistan is a normal state that can do normal business? the latter is a a point that hurts me deeply because we have (on BRF) been early seers of that but Indian governments have been extraordinarily stupid. Even Modi's BJP will get no points from me unless they are able to show that they recognize how abnormal a state Pakistan is. Let's see..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jun 2014 20:09

When the Indian government treats Pakistan like a normal country, the people of India, who unlike us on BRF are relatively unconcerned about foreign policy imagine that the government is doing the right thing and imagine that Pakistan is a normal country.

Pakistan is not a normal country. the people have been fed on hate for Hindus and India and the army is particularly vicious in this regard. The US successfully demonized the USSR during the cold war because the US had a view (right or wrong) that the USSR consisted of heartless monsters. The US made sure that Americans knew what the government felt about the USSR

We have a somewhat similar problem in Pakistan and it is just plain denial and lies for the Indian government not to acknowledge it. I was tempted to use the words that Indian governments have "not come clean" on Pakistan, but in fact the problem is a deep ignorance of Pakistan among governments. That is what I find most frustrating - the ignorance of the government despite a host of really well informed people (not just us of BRF) openly talking about Pakistan and in the last 6-7 years a host of great books on Pakistan.

India cannot even start dealing with Pakistan as we ought to if the Indian government cannot even understand and acknowledge the nature of the beast. There is no "Pakistan desk" anywhere in India - either in government or academia - which indicates the depth of ignorance.