Viv S wrote:
All NATO air ops during Balkans were limited to over 30,000ft because of the heavy MANPAD threat. And this is back in the 90s when EO tech was still relatively primitive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banja_Luka_incident
The above link is for a piece of action from the Balkans where US f 16's shot down 04 J 21's of Serbia.
The Bosnian Serb Jastrebs headed northwards, back to their base. At 6:45 a.m., the NATO fighters engaged their opponents. Captain Robert G. Wright fired an AIM-120 AMRAAM, downing the first Jastreb which was flying at 5,000 feet. The remaining Jastrebs dropped to a few hundred feet, flying at low level to use the mountainous terrain to hide from radar and make their escape back to Udbina. Wright pressed on, closing to within AIM-9 Sidewinder range. He fired two of his heat-seeking Sidewinder missiles, and they were seen to hit the Serb aircraft.
Scott O' Grady got shot down in 1995 (almost mid way in the Balkan efforts) by a MANPAD. Refer link below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_inter ... erzegovina
It was in Kosovo in 1999 that the policy shifted to High Altitude Bombing as a strategy. Refer link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
Strategy
Operation Allied Force predominantly used a large-scale air campaign to destroy Yugoslav military infrastructure from high altitudes. Ground units were not used because NATO wanted to minimize the risk of losing forces, as well as avoiding public criticism related to its relative ineffectiveness against mobile ground targets. After the third day, almost all of NATO's strategic military targets in Yugoslavia were destroyed.
High altitude bombing will work in an Air Superiority / Air Dominance / Favourable Air Situation where you are not looking to avoid radars or enemy fighters. So go high and avoid the only threat. The penalty being certain missions or getting close to ground for certain kind of bombing.
Fighter operations can be conducted at 40,000ft over mountainous areas thus keeping out of the MANPAD envelope. Now the Jaguar can't effectively do 40kft loaded but that's not true for most other fighters.
Which are these 'most fighters' in our inventory which will match Mirage 2K performance at high altitude. 40,000 ft is way too high sir. Even M 2K maneuverability is below optimum at High Altitudes. Straight & Level flight will be different.
The tactics against MANPAD/SHORAD involve flying outside their envelope and engaging with precision weaponry rather than reconciling ourselves to aircraft losses.
These are not the only tactics.
What makes you think the world 'glossed over it'? Its very well known to every professional air force out their including the IAF that lost two Mi-17s and a MiG-21 to Stingers (the latter having descended into threat envelope to get a fix on his wingman). And the solution is equally well known (read: Paveway/Litening integration during Kargil).
01 Mi 17 and not 02. 01 Fighter (S/L Ahuja) shot down by MANPAD. Nachiketa (Mig 27)developed engine trouble. Remember there were no TSP aircraft opposing us, but the ground level targets were forcing us to descend low. Only after the losses did we go for M 2K.
Please check details at this source (among many):
http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20 ... -war/dvc4# Specially read Pg 07, 08,09,10..
A para from pg 10 on DIFFICULTIES AFFECTING THE PROVISION OF CLOSE AIR SUPPORT:
When one adds to such complicating factors an unusually small target size, the result all too often is a delayed or failed visual target acquisition or, depending on the terrain layout, an abnormally steep dive angle for weapon delivery. Since altitude loss during dive recoveries is substantially greater at high mountain elevations than during strike operations conducted closer to sea level, such abnormal dive angles allow little target tracking time before a recovery from the dive must be initiated.
Moreover, the man-portable surface-to-air missiles that the intruders wielded had an effective slant range that was sufficient to require the IAF’s fighter pilots to remain 6,000 to 8,000 feet above the high ridgelines at all times in order to stay safely outside their threat envelopes, which increased the aircraft’s turn radius, rendering some targets unserviceable from the air because of the prohibition against any crossing of the LoC. On top of that, when bombs were dropped, their delivery accuracy was degraded at higher release altitudes. Because of the extreme elevation at which most of the fighting took place, the IAF’s munitions did not perform aerodynamically to their familiar specifications for lower release altitudes. The reduced air temperature and density above the Kargil heights altered drag indices and other performance parameters that had never before been calculated for those conditions, causing weapons not to guide as predicted and requiring adaptation of delivery techniques through real-time improvisation.86 More to the point, as a result of the reduced aerodynamic drag caused by the surrounding thin air at higher altitudes, unguided munitions tended to overshoot their intended aim points. Precision munitions tended to have greater trajectory inertia, which translated into an increase in the weapon’s normal circular error probable.In addition, as noted above, the thinner air required pilots to release their weapons and initiate a pullout sooner than they normally would in airspace closer to sea level, further degrading delivery accuracy.
Additionally refer wiki link on Op Safed Sagar.
Now we know, altitude troubles munitions too. What is important is M 2K were considered the best in A 2 G role at high altitude in an inventory composed of Mig 21, 23, 27 & Jaguars. The Mig 29 was Air Superiority and flew often. Even the M 2K, started ops on 30th May but did not use the Laser Guided Bombs till Jun 24th. The destruction of Muntho Dhalo admin and logistics Hq on 17 Jun were done using M 2K in steep dive bombing using 1000 pounder general purpose bombs and not ''Paveway". We could not use them before 24th Jun. The Ops were generally below 30 K feet and not above 40 K feet.
My conclusion: A multirole fighter ahead of the M 2K will do better at these altitudes and all fighters will operate close to the ground whatever the theater until Air Dominance / Superiority / Favourable Air Situation is achieved.
Skardu is at 2500 m elevation and Srinagar & Awantipore at approx 1500 m. Below 03 Kms, not much of an issue. PLAFF bases on Tibet are at serious altitudes but 'most' of their inventory does not have M 2K capability.
