LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

titash · Post by **titash** » 02 Jul 2014 23:48

alexis wrote:
Victor wrote:Sorry if this has been discussed already but I'm finding no info to show what the LCH has that the Rudra doesn't. All info available actually points to Rudra being more capable, specially since it can carry troops which LCH can't.
Maneuverability and Protection

plus the Rudra cannot carry troops in gunship mode. I recall seeing a pic where the cabin was occupied by a massive (really massive) ammo box for the 20mm cannon

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 03 Jul 2014 02:14

30mm High Explosive Dual Purpose Round used by Apache

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 08 Jul 2014 20:21

Nepal Army seeks two advanced light helicopters from India at subsidised price

Nepal Army's request to buy two HAL-made Dhruv choppers came during the two-day meeting of 'Nepal-India Bilateral Consultative Group (BCG) on Security Issues' that concluded in Kathmandu yesterday, the sources said.
The Indian side took Nepal's request positively, the sources said.

Earlier, India had provided two ALHs to the Nepal Army temporarily during the second Constituent Assembly elections held in November last year to carry out monitoring of the elections.

These military equipments were supplied by India at 60 per cent subsidy and 40 per cent cash payment.

Nepal has sought resumption of supply of military hardware from government of India, which was halted during the absolute rule by then King Gyanendra in February 2005, when civil rights were suspended.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 29 Aug 2014 14:40

Press Trust of India ‏@PTI_News 9m
Defence Ministry scraps Rs 6000-crore tender for Light Utility Helicopters: sources.

Let's see if HAL can deliver LUH.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 29 Aug 2014 16:18

Nice, great, now HAL should speed up LUH

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 29 Aug 2014 17:17

Defence Ministry scraps Rs 6000 crore tender for Light Utility Helicopters

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 191967.cms

The DAC decided to retract from the tender for procuring 197 helicopters and it has been decided that the Indian industry would be given the opportunity to produce around 400 such choppers for the requirements of the armed forces, Defence Ministry sources said here.

he meeting also gave a go ahead to the Navy to open the bids of the tender for procuring 16 multi-role helicopters in a deal in which American Sikorsky and European NH Industries, which includes AgustaWestland, are in contention.

I am enjoying this government's approach towards defence acquisition. Low hanging stuff's with feasibility of quick development within the country needs to be done here with the aim to involve industries too.
Else go for import or JV etc.
LUH should now be flying at max 2015

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Aug 2014 17:26

at minimum HAL needs to have aJV with some pvt party probably Tatas since they have already started work for others

HAL cannot handle future Indian needs - period

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 29 Aug 2014 17:40

Let's just hunker the fu(k down and do WHATEVER we can to ensure this government wins the next election with an even bigger margin.

I can hardly believe the speed at which things are changing.

OT - no doubt, but if ever there was a place for an OT post, this is it.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 29 Aug 2014 17:45

at minimum HAL needs to have aJV with some pvt party probably Tatas since they have already started work for others

In fact like I had suggested in an earlier post, HAL helicopter division should be completely hived off with 51% govt and 49% some industry partner. This JV could have a lot of potential as a strong international player.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 29 Aug 2014 18:04

Is this not a Lungi-Dance moment? With in few days of assuming the charge of two ministries, our DM has scrapped the tender not only because it is scam-tainted but also to promote indigenous industry.

However the maths is not adding up. The decision has been taken on 197 foreign made choppers for 6,000 crore rupees and later it says 400 such choppers for 40,000 crore rupees (Am ignoring an extra zero mentioned in the article as 400,000 crore rupees because a) 400,000 is a huge number b) 6,000 + 17,500 + 4,800 + 6,600 = 34,900 crore rupees still < 40,000).

What is the split between Army and IAF for the 203 choppers?

PS - Edited later, noticed one more zero error of 150,000 Crore rupees for Chinook and Apache. God help TOI's reporting standards. Probably, India's health and education budget combined won't reach 150,000 Crore rupees. Sorry for deviation.

NEW DELHI: Defence ministry on Friday scrapped a scam-tainted tender worth over Rs 6,000 crore to procure 197 light utility helicopters for Army and Air Force to replace the vintage fleet of Cheetah and Chetak choppers used to move troops and equipment to high altitude locations like Siachen.

In a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council headed by defence minister Arun Jaitley, the government also cleared proposals worth over Rs 17,500 crore including the mid-life upgrade of the aging fleet of submarines for Rs 4,800 crore and procurement of 118 Arjun Mk II tanks for Rs 6,600 crore.

The DAC decided to retract from the tender for procuring 197 helicopters and it has been decided that the Indian industry would be given the opportunity to produce around 400 such choppers for the requirements of the armed forces, defence ministry sources said here. In line with NDA government's plan to develop the indigenous industry, the government decision is expected to generate business worth over Rs 40,0000 crore for the local industry in the defence sector, they said.

The defence ministry's apex body for procurement cases also cleared proposal for offsets deviations in the Rs 15,0000 crore deal for buying 15 Chinook and 22 Apache attack helicopters from the US.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Aug 2014 18:29

The LUH category has been opened under the Make and Buy category. Now, Indian companies in partnership with foreign firms will be allowed to bid for this project. Now, while this seems OK on the face of it, there some issues which bothers me.

- And that is, what happens to HAL LUH project?
- And what about the timeline for induction of this chopper?
- What IP to be build through this route?

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(1) It is a fact that NO Indian company can manufacture and produce a helicopter on it's own. So, it will invariably tie-up with a foreign manufacturer like Eurocopter or Augusta Westland. The 'Make and Buy' category in this case will become another route for a foreign firm to slip in their product. Yes, there will be local sourcing of components and development of an ecosystem of vendors with considerable money being poured into local economy - but question remains: What will Indian company learn out of all this when it comes to helicopter design & development? And carrying further on - what will INDIA learn out of this exercise and will this opportunity confer us the independence for R&D of helicopter outside of DRDO + HAL Rotor Division? And what happens to IP which rests with DRDO and HAL courtesy their experience with DHRUV, WSI Dhruv and LCH?

Of course, one +ve development could be that Indian JV becomes hub for export to other countries as well. And Indian firms can offer manufacture of some components to other helicopter manufacturers. Like TATA providing components for RUAG Dornier.

(2) Coming to second question - the whole thing is in greenfield stage as far as private sector is concerned. And this has implication on selection, production and induction. When IA and MOD pushed for 'Make & Buy' category for FICV segment, Indian Army had time on its hand as far as IFV situation in army was concerned . But we don't have this luxury in case of LUH. If the tenders had gone as per timeline, the first foreign manufactured chopper would've entered service by 2010!

Now, the time required for tie-up between Indian and foreign entity, submission of proposal, selection, setting up of manufacturing facility and final induction will easily take 5-6 years!!! The requirement for LUH was as of yesterday. How does this gel with replacement schedule for the Cheetah and Chetak in IA/IAF service?

(3) HAL is developing LUH and by the looks of it, it will be ready before anything is chosen in the 'Make & Buy' category...So, why go through this dog and pony show of 'Make & Buy' charade? If the idea is to keep foreign firms out and develop indigenous capability in this field, then the HAL project should be pushed with utmost sincerity and pull all plugs on this one.

The shortest way for earliest induction of this chopper is for HAL to tie-up with Indian private sector firm for parallel production of LUH along with its own facility. The best example of R&D Lab tying up with private sector is PINAKA - L&T and TATA SED delivered the order in required time-frame and I've not heard of any quality issues with this system.

And if the HAL LUH is expected to compete with foreign product marketed by Indian company as JV - well, then it opens up another can of worm. While Services may be able to break HAL/DPSU monopoly on the demand aspect, how it benefits the nation in long run, remains to be seen.
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I think, given the induction related exigency, 'Make and Buy' should not have been used for this category. Either get the foreign product or get the HAL to develop their prototype and bring it into production ASAP. This 'Make and Buy' category for this product seems to be to push foreign product in round-about way.

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As far as LUH segment is concerned, a size-able part of the delay rests with corrupt officials from IA itself.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Aug 2014 18:36

double posted,sorry.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Aug 2014 18:36

The LUH helos are a far more urgent requirement as they support our logistics in the mountains.I have little confidence in HAL delivering on time gvien its massive order book and track record.Why the Apaches were also not scrapped is a moot Q,and the far cheaper LCH promoted instead. One can understand if Chinooks or MI-26s,MI-18s,multi-role ASW helos are ordered as we do not produce the same,but the LCH is flying in prototype form,has been displayed and should be promoted to the maximum instead of a foreign bird,east or west,if it meets the requirements.

One can only assume that in the current scenario with Pak and China,the GOI wants some urgent beefing up of the services' offensive capability ,esp. as the arty ,ammo and ATGM shortage precludes the IA from sustaaining any major conflict for more than a couple of weeks.If this be the case,then a further announcement that large orders of the LCH would be forthcoming would be very welcome.Similarly,an urgent acquisition of at least 60-80 foreign LUHs would alleviate the IA's current crisis.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 Aug 2014 18:38

^^^ @rohitvats, I was thinking on similar lines. Kind off worried, specially about the Glacier Air Maintenance. Hope the Cheetahs survive that long.

All other places, wherever we have only Cheetah capable helipads will also suffer but the main pinch will be on the glacier. I sincerely hope they are right in their planning.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Aug 2014 19:24

deejay wrote:^^^ @rohitvats, I was thinking on similar lines. Kind off worried, specially about the Glacier Air Maintenance. Hope the Cheetahs survive that long. All other places, wherever we have only Cheetah capable helipads will also suffer but the main pinch will be on the glacier. I sincerely hope they are right in their planning.

I'm saying this again - someone in MOD knows that GOI under NM wants to push for development domestic competency in all possible areas of defense. And has managed to slip in this 'Make and Buy' category for LUH. It makes no bloody sense given that HAL is working on LUH.

And it seems HAL will have to fight it out with foreign products offered by Indian companies - How will a new product fare against established products from stable of foreign vendors?

This new thing makes no sense from timeline, cost or increment in our R&D knowledge perspective .

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 29 Aug 2014 19:42

one possibility could be that they have shown faith on HAL LUH (based on ALH etc) with a trade off of some delay compared to the current deal .

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Aug 2014 20:00

(3) HAL is developing LUH and by the looks of it, it will be ready before anything is chosen in the 'Make & Buy' category

rohit

I would not count on this

HAL is badly overstretched

the best hope for your concerns is HAL using the work on LUH in a joint venture with tatas or someone

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Aug 2014 20:05

rohitvats wrote:The LUH category has been opened under the Make and Buy category. Now, Indian companies in partnership with foreign firms will be allowed to bid for this project.

Any link which explicitly mentions that it has been opened under "Make and Buy"? The ET article just says "the Indian industry would be given the opportunity" which might just mean HAL gets to produce all 400.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 29 Aug 2014 20:13

^^^ Indian industry means private sector.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Aug 2014 20:17

Surya wrote: rohit

I would not count on this

HAL is badly overstretched

the best hope for your concerns is HAL using the work on LUH in a joint venture with tatas or someone

My idea for HAL to develop the prototype and take care of testing+certification and then partner with private sector for production and post production support.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Aug 2014 20:26

SanjayC wrote:^^^ Indian industry means private sector.

So HAL or other PSUs are not part of "Indian Industry"?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Aug 2014 20:59

There are three paths going forward.

Situation 1 [IDEAL]. Indian Rotorcraft Ltd. teams up with HAL and together they have 2 lines for LUH.
Pros:
a. There is no light heli in the world which can rival LUH's designed high altitude performance.
b. Export potential.
c. Healthy competition.
Cons:
a. Why would HAL allow it? It makes no sense for them no matter which way they look at it, other than if they can get licensing fee.
b. Timelines.

Situation 2. Indian Rotorcraft Ltd. builds 200 imported helis and HAL builds 200 LUHs
Pros:
a. Will probably lead to faster deployment.
Cons
a. Two platforms for the same job. Higher procurement and maintenance cost.
b. Impairs LUH's export potential.

Situation 3. HAL manufactures all 400 LUHs
Pros:
a. No conflicts.
Cons
a. No competition, may mean HAL may slack off
b. Timelines. Timelines. Timelines.
c. Will send really wrong signals to the private industry (especially after this shrewd gimmick of inserting buy and make clause).

For me, the preference is Situation 1> Situation 3>Situation 2.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 29 Aug 2014 21:13

rohitvats wrote:
Surya wrote: rohit

I would not count on this

HAL is badly overstretched

the best hope for your concerns is HAL using the work on LUH in a joint venture with tatas or someone
My idea for HAL to develop the prototype and take care of testing+certification and then partner with private sector for production and post production support.

HAL guards the production dept very close to its heart, it considers it as a area where it can earn profit without regard for national capability. They in fact would accept the other way round of pvt industry providing tech and hal being d manufacturer. It is not gonna happen unless there is a political will and even if such a decision is taken today it would take at least a decade or a half to see things materialise. But to meet the pressing needs hal should be forced to utilise its facilities to optimum level and increase efficiency, in the mean time slowly HAL should be pvtized. Forces can't wait for Hal- pvt jugalbandhi so they will go for import so urgency should be the mantra and do wat ever it takes.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 29 Aug 2014 21:32

Just look at this luh timeline given by HAL in 2010

"So far HAL is comfortably beating the MoD clock and plans to beat the 2017 deadline by a full two years. It has built a mock-up within the timeline; plans to freeze the LuH design by the end of this year; fly the LuH for the first time by 2012; certify it by 2014, and begin delivery by 2015."

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/07/h ... t.html?m=1

nash · Post by **nash** » 29 Aug 2014 21:37

dhiraj wrote:
In fact like I had suggested in an earlier post, HAL helicopter division should be completely hived off with 51% govt and 49% some industry partner. This JV could have a lot of potential as a strong international player.

That was I also thought, 51% for HAL and 49% would be consortium of pvt. and Foreign counterpart.

Product should be one and line should be 2 with high export potential as suggested by Indranil and i think with volume so high HAL would have any issue.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 29 Aug 2014 21:45

GOI recognizes the dire need to create at least one viable domestic competitor to HAL in the aviation industry.
HAL has it hands too full (overflowing actually), with no competition, along with the baggage of 'sarkari chalta-hai' attitude.
This is a strategic step in the right direction, immediate repercussions notwithstanding.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 29 Aug 2014 21:46

abhik wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The LUH category has been opened under the Make and Buy category. Now, Indian companies in partnership with foreign firms will be allowed to bid for this project.
Any link which explicitly mentions that it has been opened under "Make and Buy"? The ET article just says "the Indian industry would be given the opportunity" which might just mean HAL gets to produce all 400.

yes most probably with pvt industries being major suppliers .

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 29 Aug 2014 22:00

Why Apache was not cancelled - deal taken way too ahead by the previous Govt. no point ruffling the feathers of US. Plus we are still paying for US's help against the Chini a few years ago at the border (I had written about it previously - chaiwallah to paanwallah sources. US probably was the first to warn us of the chini movement on the border and possibly shooed them away diplomatically. In return we bought C17, ityadi)

What does make in India mean. Wait for more clarity in the days to come. This is the most pragmatic govt I have seen. The way they have handled the Finmeccanica thing is exactly what we need - a policy un bashed-ly selfish for what is best for India.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 29 Aug 2014 22:34

VikB wrote:This is the most pragmatic govt I have seen. The way they have handled the Finmeccanica thing is exactly what we need - a policy un bashed-ly selfish for what is best for India.

After ten years of UPA hell infested by traitors and mercenaries, never thought I will ever hear this in my lifetime. Long live Namo!

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 29 Aug 2014 22:50

Read through all the articles and the posts here, I see one glaring issue. Even if HAL were to come up with an LUH from scratch, their whole development process assumes sourcing the engine. I dont get this, why is making the engine such a huge stumbling block even for a LUH. I mean, the GTX Kaveri may have issues for a fighter plane, but are we saying that HAL cannot on its own or in collaboration with DRDO even make a LUH engine.

All the int'l suppliers have us by the **** simply because of this glaring loophole in our know how. Can someone here throw some more light on this. I mean, why isn't a downsized or lower power version of the GTX-Kaveri suitable for a LUH. If the GOI is so keen on indigenous manufacturing, the engine is the real game changer. And what better place to start with than a chopper which is far less demanding in terms of power compared to a fighter plane.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Aug 2014 23:19

^^^^^^

India just (recently) started a *national* effort for a 1500 HP engine for a tank!!!! I know Indians who are designing such engines in the West.

Ya, India - at the moment - cannot build a a reliable engine for a flying machine that can be used today.

Such things take time - solid R&D.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Aug 2014 01:04

rohitvats wrote: - What IP to be build through this route?

-----------------------------------------------------------
(1) It is a fact

These dashes (highlighted in red) are messing up the formatt of whole page, page will get corrected if delete at least half of the ---- dashes!

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 30 Aug 2014 02:50

hecky wrote:Press Trust of India ‏@PTI_News 9m
Defence Ministry scraps Rs 6000-crore tender for Light Utility Helicopters: sources.

Let's see if HAL can deliver LUH.

Finally a government which has balls.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 30 Aug 2014 03:01

muraliravi wrote:Read through all the articles and the posts here, I see one glaring issue. Even if HAL were to come up with an LUH from scratch, their whole development process assumes sourcing the engine. I dont get this, why is making the engine such a huge stumbling block even for a LUH. I mean, the GTX Kaveri may have issues for a fighter plane, but are we saying that HAL cannot on its own or in collaboration with DRDO even make a LUH engine.

All the int'l suppliers have us by the **** simply because of this glaring loophole in our know how. Can someone here throw some more light on this. I mean, why isn't a downsized or lower power version of the GTX-Kaveri suitable for a LUH. If the GOI is so keen on indigenous manufacturing, the engine is the real game changer. And what better place to start with than a chopper which is far less demanding in terms of power compared to a fighter plane.

Making aircraft engine or engine for that matter is a technological achievement of the highest kind. By saying even make a LUH engine you are ignoring the huge effort that is required to achieve the same. Things are being done but it will take time for the actual hardware to come. Most probably by the end of this decade we will have aeroengines.

IIT-M to sign MoU with HAL

Both the organisations will collaborate to do research in the transmission system for the helicopter and flight engines being developed by HAL and to evolve required software and design solutions for different types of gears, bearings, lubrication system, vibration monitoring system and production technologies.

HAL has also sent an RFI for developing a 1000-1200 kW shaft power engine for powering helicopters.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1707133

Give some time we will remove this problem as well.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Aug 2014 06:50

Now cancel the Ah 64 deal. Increase the LCH Order by an equal number.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 30 Aug 2014 07:37

HAL has also sent an RFI for developing a 1000-1200 kW shaft power engine for powering helicopters.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1707133

Give some time we will remove this problem as well.

Hmm, how long will it take for the engine to be developed?Are there any info available on whether they have an engine earmarked for initial batches, and then have this new engine take over?Or is this the only engine option for LUH?

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 30 Aug 2014 08:58

indranilroy wrote:There are three paths going forward.

Situation 1 [IDEAL]. Indian Rotorcraft Ltd. teams up with HAL and together they have 2 lines for LUH.
Pros:
a. There is no light heli in the world which can rival LUH's designed high altitude performance.
b. Export potential.
c. Healthy competition.
Cons:
a. Why would HAL allow it? It makes no sense for them no matter which way they look at it, other than if they can get licensing fee.
b. Timelines.

Situation 2. Indian Rotorcraft Ltd. builds 200 imported helis and HAL builds 200 LUHs
Pros:
a. Will probably lead to faster deployment.
Cons
a. Two platforms for the same job. Higher procurement and maintenance cost.
b. Impairs LUH's export potential.

Situation 3. HAL manufactures all 400 LUHs
Pros:
a. No conflicts.
Cons
a. No competition, may mean HAL may slack off
b. Timelines. Timelines. Timelines.
c. Will send really wrong signals to the private industry (especially after this shrewd gimmick of inserting buy and make clause).

For me, the preference is Situation 1> Situation 3>Situation 2.

Case 3, with HAL getting the entire order, could become a nightmare with production schedules and build quality being held hostages to HAL's well known issues. Besides, we desperately news a reliable second source, which need the private sector can fill. One obvious choice is Tata, but Mahindra might also be a possibility seeing as how well they've executed on the C-NM5 project. Injection of technology from a second source is a good thing too to enhance the knowledge base of the industry not just in design but also in manufacturing processes.

Just my 2p...

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Aug 2014 09:09

Pratyush wrote:Now cancel the Ah 64 deal. Increase the LCH Order by an equal number.

+1, the same logic used to cancel the LUH can be applied here. Plus the LCH is a lot further along in the development than the HAL LUH so its a lot less risky too.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Aug 2014 10:04

putnanja wrote:
HAL has also sent an RFI for developing a 1000-1200 kW shaft power engine for powering helicopters.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1707133

Give some time we will remove this problem as well.
Hmm, how long will it take for the engine to be developed?Are there any info available on whether they have an engine earmarked for initial batches, and then have this new engine take over?Or is this the only engine option for LUH?

The development of LUH and the turboshaft engine were never coupled. LUH is going to be flying with the Ardiden 1U engine which is a variant of the Ardiden 1H1/Shakti engine. However, if the actual performance of the HAL Turboshaft engine matches the designed specs, then you might see them as replacement engines for LUH/ALH/LCH.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Aug 2014 13:38

If that's the case, then it makes perfect sense to cancel the import of the LUH.

IIRC, a lot of FUD was spread regarding the suitability of the Shakti for the LUH. That it was unsuitable for a single engine machine. However, when the FUD was viewed in the light of the Cheetal upgrade, it made no sense.

Added later: I wanted to say LUH and said LCH instead.