Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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abhik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by abhik »

Singha wrote:The helina would be our brimstone but ideally needs mmw,radar for autonomy and ability to strike inert cold targets that ir sensors cannot pick.
even tejas should be able to carry 8.
We need to start with the basic airframe with a laser seeker and then move on to MMW seeker. A combination of such missiles, CBU 105, submunition cluster bombs and 250/500 lb laser guided bombs should be able to destroy any army out in the open.
BTW what sort of mobile SAM assets does the Pakis have(apart from the MANPADs)?
Viv S
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Viv S »

Singha wrote:I don't know how or if salvo fired brimstone can divide targets instead of all homing on the highest rcs target.
is it spray and pray approach?
Target designation is by LDP AFAIK (Litening) and each missile can be independently assigned to a target. Also employs a datalink for updates according to some sources.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Viv S »

abhik wrote:BTW what sort of mobile SAM assets does the Pakis have(apart from the MANPADs)?
Skyguard radar + Oerlikon 35mm AAA. Range: 3-4 km. Not particularly modern, but everything else is positively ancient.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by K Mehta »

OT- Spada-2000 was the most recent acquisition, backbone is mostly Crotales and their chinese knock-offs. They have mounted stingers and other manpads on vehicles, which can be considered as "Mobile SAMs" . AAA is L60? and ofcourse oerlikon GDF with some skyguard systems apart from chinese AAA.
Last edited by K Mehta on 04 Jul 2014 13:59, edited 2 times in total.
member_20292
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_20292 »

In terms of technology and manufacturing ability, how has building the Su30MKI in India , helped the HAL company? Does it help the LCA program?
member_23694
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_23694 »

mahadevbhu wrote:n terms of technology and manufacturing ability, how has building the Su30MKI in India , helped the HAL company? Does it help the LCA program?
It definitely did not help. Whether it is SU 30 or the earlier assembly lines.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/12/r ... ombat.html
“ADA and HAL have realized that creating a production line needs major effort… That realization has come,” says Subramanyam.
followed by
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/12/h ... hters.html
This is being done with laser scanners that ensure that a number of key points (called “locators”) on each aircraft being built is exactly where it should be. By measuring with the laser, it is ensured that the locator is within 80 microns, i.e. about one-tenth of a millimetre, of where it should be. These are international standards, used by companies like Boeing.
HAL’s chairman, RK Tyagi, explains that the international best practices being introduced in the Tejas assembly line will be replicated across all the aerospace giant’s production lines, including the Sukhoi-30MKI line in Nashik and the Hawk trainer line in Bangalore.
Please don't blame IAF for the fact that HAL did not earlier follow international best practises
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by dinesh_kimar »

^
In terms of technology and manufacturing ability, how has building the Su30MKI in India , helped the HAL company? Does it help the LCA program?
HAL has made profits on Suhkoi project, but it is still a mystery on how this has helped Indian Aerospace. Recent reports on Sukhoi being grounded for lack of spares / support has had me wondering about "What exactly did we get?"

I think spending 2oo crore for imported Su 30 is difficult for the government to approve, but spending 300 crore for the same plane built in HAL is easier and more hassle-free, so everybody turns a blind eye to this practice.

HAL's "Assimilation of Skills and technology" seems to be a lifelong process.

The development of LCA happened mainly due to efforts from labs like DRDO and ADA.

All our domestic industry, and technical know-how came from the Tejas, and thats why it needs to succeed at any cost.
member_20292
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_20292 »

1. HAL needs best practises infusion from abroad. Can they buy a small airplane co., like Ford bought Mazda in the late 80's and then finally got their small cars right, starting with the Focus?

2. Looking at some wiki pages about ancient Safavid metal helmets, its struck me that defense drives a lot of technological progress. From this 30,000 ft. up historical perspective, investing in Indic RnD programs should be a no-brainer. I don't know if there is a thread for tracking defense innovation? if there isn't i will create one.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_23694 »

The development of LCA happened mainly due to efforts from labs like DRDO and ADA.
Wiki mentions
Although the Tejas is most often described as a product of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), responsibility for the development of the Tejas actually belongs to ADA, a national consortium of over 100 defence laboratories, industrial organisations, and academic institutions with HAL being the principal contractor
I am also curious to know as to what are the R&D activities exclusively done by HAL from scratch and which has gone into Tejas, apart from the integration and assembly of the plane itself.
Wiki mentions that
The pulse-Doppler Multi-Mode Radar was to be made by LRDE and HAL but that too because of delays in the MMR's development prompted the DRDO to co-operate with Israel Aerospace Industries to integrate a hybrid version of the EL/M-2032 radar on the Tejas
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_20292 »

the hal is a manufacturing organization. cemilac certifies aircraft.
member_23694
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_23694 »

the hal is a manufacturing organization
So it should be ADA Tejas and NOT HAL Tejas, just like Sukhoi 30 and LM F 35 who designed and developed the plane .
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

Dinesh HALCan make new parts but it would be wasteful versus Overhauling which is where the delay occurred tthanks to the argument between India and Russia over price with a four year delay in setting up overhau and repairl faciliities which were set up only this year.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rrao »

Image

http://www.tejas.gov.in/technology/comp ... rials.html

The Tejas employs CFC materials for up to 45% of its airframe, including in the fuselage (doors and skins), wings (skin, spars and ribs), elevons, tailfin, rudder, air brakes and landing gear doors. Composites are used to make an aircraft both lighter and stronger at the same time compared to an all-metal design, and the LCA's percentage employment of CFCs is one of the highest among contemporary aircraft of its class. Apart from making the plane much lighter, there are also fewer joints or rivets, which increases the aircraft's reliability and lowers its susceptibility to structural fatigue cracks.

The use of composites in the LCA resulted in a 40% reduction in the total number of parts compared to using a metallic frame. Furthermore, the number of fasteners has been reduced by half in the composite structure from the 10,000 that would have been required in a metallic frame design. The composite design also helped to avoid about 2,000 holes being drilled into the airframe. Overall, the aircraft's weight is lowered by 21%. While each of these factors can reduce production costs, an additional benefit — and significant cost savings — is realised in the shorter time required to assemble the aircraft — seven months for the LCA as opposed to 11 months using an all-metal airframe.
Last edited by rrao on 07 Jul 2014 19:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rrao »

Image
@tejas.gov.in

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/07/ ... to-re.html

indranilji and shivji ,the above report confirms that there are problems with IJT structural design and ARDC's request(SOS) for help strengthens that issue. How to reduce the obese IJT's weight? Total redesign from scratch is as good as rolling back the program by several years. What is the content of CFC in the IJT? if we see the graphic of Tejas the content of composites is 40% and Aluminum alloys is 40%!!! Hope the avionics wont weigh as much!!! It is claimed there is an overall reduction of weight of LCA by 21% as tejas.gov.in website. By going in for composite parts may be we can reduce the weight by 20% of 4150kgs of IJT weight equals around 800 kgs.. is the overweight IJT is causing asymmetric roll during stall and spin trials? Just by replacing structure with composites will it solve the problem? wing shape,engine intakes,hgih tail etc may have to be redesigned...seems to be in a mess!!!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by vivek_ahuja »

rrao wrote:... Just by replacing structure with composites will it solve the problem? wing shape,engine intakes,hgih tail etc may have to be redesigned...seems to be in a mess!!!!
You know that golden engineering rule: when the design is a spiraling mess, time to wipe the board clean and start anew?

The guys here can talk some more on this, but from where I stand, I can see that IJT program as a washout. The core issues are cascading and cannot be resolved with patch fixes here and there. So many cascading issues to resolve, it might be better to start afresh. Sad as that might sound to BRFites and to HAL.

Perhaps this experience will prove as a bitter lesson for the next time around. The thing I worry about more now is that the folks far too close and attached to the program will not allow a clean-slate start in the hopes of salvaging this design. That will cost us more in the long run.

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Indranil »

I don't share your pessimism here. I don't know whether they have not been able to handle the aerodynamic problems. I am waiting for the results. We will know in a year's time.

They want to shave off 200-300 kgs from an all metal plane, through the use of optimization of structures and use of different materials. I don't think it will be that difficult. I am not too worried about the change of LRUs either. It is common to do this.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by vivek_ahuja »

indranilroy wrote:They want to shave off 200-300 kgs from an all metal plane, through the use of optimization of structures and use of different materials. I don't think it will be that difficult. I am not too worried about the change of LRUs either. It is common to do this.
If (and that's a big "if"), that is the only thing that needs to be fixed. Also, "optimization of structures" is not an easy process on a small plane such as the IJT. If they can get this done just by changing materials etc., I will be very impressed.

As you said, we will know in a year's time. I am happy to be proven wrong on this, of course. If they can fix the problems stated, I will eat my proverbial hat.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Philip »

The LCA made up of so many composite elements would be vulnerable in the close support role.The JSF,tasked to replace the A-19 "flying tank",has been heavily criticised for this role as it simply cannot withstand any kind of anti-air fire including small arms fire,due to the mostly composite airframe.Any study of the on-going conflicts show that heavy losses are being incurred from small arms,RPGs and MAMPADs.This necessitates that any aircraft or attack helo must be heavily armoured to be able to survive hits at least from small arms/heavy calibre fire. Some attach helos have even survived RPG rounds.Crew survivability is paramount.A study of the JSF programme,the world's most expensive ever, has found that thre US would've been far better off had they designed and built specialist aircraft for the 3 services. Within a service too,there is a clear difference in the design parameters for close-support aircraft and multi-role aircraft whether heavy or light.Since there is no need for supersonic flight,as attack helos too complement the role,combat trainers with additional protection,etc. would best fit the role.They would be much cheaper and easier to operate than highly sophisticated MR fighters.

There was a news item that the IAF's Jaguars are going to get a new high performance ASRAAM,from Britain.A British trade team is in town for the same.THis is the first positive news about the IAF's Jags,which have been in limbo after much hype of a Raytheon deep upgrade which would include engines,etc. Indo-Brit relations seem to be on the upswing,perhaps due to back channel diplomacy by the large Indian diaspora in the UK,where successful Gujaratis are a very important part of the landscape.30yrs. ago the Sunday Times carried a feature where they reported that there were over 100 millionaires in Britain with the surname "Patel"!
India, UK sign deals worth £370 million Defence ministry signs £250 mn contact with missile maker MBDA; Cipla to invest £100 mn in its UK subsidiary
Swaraj Singh Dhanjal

The deals came on day one of UK diplomats George Osborne (right) and William Hague’s India visit. Photo: PTI Mumbai: Deals worth at least £370 million (around Rs.3,800 crore) were signed between India and the UK on Monday, the first day of a visit by George Osborne, the British chancellor of the exchequer, and William Hague, the country’s foreign secretary. The Indian Air Force and companies such as the Mahindra Group and Cipla Ltd were among those that signed business agreements with UK-based corporations. Osborne told a press conference in Mumbai that India’s defence ministry has signed a £250 million contact with missile maker MBDA of the UK for the supply of advanced short range air-to-air missiles (ASRAAM) to the Indian Air Force’s fleet of Jaguar aircraft. Osborne and Hague are on a two-day visit for high-level meetings with members of the new government led by Narendra Modi. The visit is aimed at opening up investment opportunities for UK firms in India’s defence and infrastructure sector, as well as attracting Indian investment to the UK. The duo met Raghuram Rajan, governor of the Reserve Bank of India, on Monday and will meet Prime Minister Modi and finance minister Arun Jaitely in New Delhi on Tuesday. Osborne also announced that Indian pharmaceutical company Cipla will be investing £100 million in its UK subsidiary to manufacture and supply a range of medicines in the area of respiratory diseases, cancer and HIV/AIDS. “This kind of high-tech, research-driven investment is the future for both our economies,” according to the text of a speech by Osborne posted on the website of the UK government. Cipla informed BSE of the investment on Monday. Separately, the Mahindra Group signed up to invest £20 million in the UK to develop electric car technology. “This great Indian business is now going to invest £20 million in developing the latest electrical car technology in the UK. And Mahindra’s first electric car is expected to go on sale in Britain next year. Britain wants to be at the centre of the technological revolution in electric cars,” Osborne said. The Mahindra Group did not offer any comments for the story. Referring to the missile deal, Osborne said it will create hundreds of jobs in the UK. The missile manufacturer declined to comment on the announcement, saying there is no official statement from the company at this point of time. In an email statement, Shireen D. Mistry, director, Western India, communications and public affairs, at the British deputy high commission in Mumbai, said the contract will create roughly 240 jobs in the UK. “The IAF (Indian Air Force) will call the missile the ‘New Generation Close Combat Missile’ (NGCCM). This is an excellent deal for both India and the UK. It underlines the UK government’s support for India’s defence modernization agenda by accessing the latest, state-of-the-art defence capabilities currently available in the UK,” Mistry said. Details of a rupee-denominated export finance scheme will be announced during the visit to Delhi on Tuesday, said Osborne.

Read more at: http://www.livemint.com/Politics/xHoQvH ... ource=copy

Read more at: http://www.livemint.com/Politics/xHoQvH ... ource=copy
Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Aditya_V »

wasnt a 3000 crore deal for something like 380 Asraam suppossed to be delived in Q4 Fy14, was that deal postponed?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:The LCA made up of so many composite elements would be vulnerable in the close support role.The JSF,tasked to replace the A-19 "flying tank",has been heavily criticised for this role as it simply cannot withstand any kind of anti-air fire including small arms fire,due to the mostly composite airframe.
While the all-metal JF-17 can shrug off AAA and SAM hits?
Any study of the on-going conflicts show that heavy losses are being incurred from small arms,RPGs and MAMPADs. This necessitates that any aircraft or attack helo must be heavily armoured to be able to survive hits at least from small arms/heavy calibre fire. Some attach helos have even survived RPG rounds.Crew survivability is paramount.
Crew survivability can be really enhanced by not pitting your $100 million aircraft against an RPG.
A study of the JSF programme,the world's most expensive ever, has found that thre US would've been far better off had they designed and built specialist aircraft for the 3 services.
A study based on non-existent historical precedents.
Last edited by Viv S on 09 Jul 2014 08:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Viv S »

On a more relevant note -
India close to finalizing Apache and Chinook chopper deals worth over $2.5 billion

NEW DELHI: India is now close to inking major deals worth over $2.5 billion for two iconic American helicopters, the Apache attack and Chinook heavy-lift choppers, which thrashed their Russian rivals both technically and commercially earlier.

Defence ministry sources on Monday said the around $1.4 billion deal for 22 AH-64D Apache Longbow gunships, armed with deadly Hellfire and Stinger missiles, and the $1.1 billion one for 15 CH-47F Chinooks, equipped with powerful contra-rotating tandem rotors, are "almost ready" now.

"These two deals for IAF will be placed for approval before the first defence acquisitions council (DAC) meeting to be chaired by Arun Jaitley on July 19. Thereafter, the cases will be moved for the cabinet committee on security's final nod," said a source.
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The Apache project, in fact, is likely to get even bigger. After a long, bitter turf war with IAF, the Army earlier this year got "in principle" approval for getting the "ownership" for 39 Apache gunships for its own "strike" formations.

"After the contract for 22 Apaches for IAF, the Army will pursue a follow-on order for three attack helicopter squadrons. The Army hopes to get its Apaches, armed with guided missiles, cannons and rockets to target enemy tanks and infantry on the ground, by 2018," said another source.
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But, as first reported by TOI earlier, the long-pending $885 million deal with the US government for 145 ultra-light M-777 howitzers is headed for a dead-end due to high costs. The air-mobile howitzers were meant to equip the new XVII Mountain Strike Corps (90,000 troops) being raised by the Army to gain "quick reaction force capabilities" against China.
ToI article so take it FWIW.

The Chinooks are fine, but I'd be glad to see the Apache deal nixed by the MoD (or MoF/CCS if need be).
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by shiv »

Viv S wrote:
A study of the JSF programme,the world's most expensive ever, has found that thre US would've been far better off had they designed and built specialist aircraft for the 3 services.
A study based on non-existent historical precedents.
Viv there are precedents. The only argument is about whether it would have been "better off" that way.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by brar_w »

A study based on non-existent historical precedents
A study here, a report there and soon we have enough information to make a program of our own :), for every RAND study there are reasonable arguments that can counter them (Have been since the JAST days). One interesting bit comes to mind. What cost did this study take as the O&S cost? 1.5 Trillon that was previously estimated or 1.02 Trillion currently estimated, or the 800 Billion or so the Program aims to eventually achieve? Needless to say that any such study at this point in time is rather pointless just as O&S estimates so far out. We also see the "most expensive ever" punchline being used for "affect" :). Soon it will be the "trillion dollar jet" as if one F-35 costs a Trillion dollars :).

The ground reality is that had there been no JSF, there would have been only a stealthy A variant, with the US navy operating non stealthy fleet and the USMC operating nothing but Harriers with no like for like replacement. There is hardly a risk appetite for one program, let alone 3 or 4 as "some studies" seem to suggest ( CTOL, CV, STOVL, A-10 " tank killer" replacement)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Viv S »

shiv wrote:
A study based on non-existent historical precedents.
Viv there are precedents. The only argument is about whether it would have been "better off" that way.
This is the RAND study in question - http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pu ... MG1225.pdf

It references 11 'historical joint aircraft programs' - TFX, F-4, A-7, F-X, F-15N, ACF/NACF, ATF/NATF, ATA, A-X, F-117N and JAST.

However of these only two entered production - F-4 & A-7. Both a product of the 60s and neither a product of a joint program (the USAF inducted serving USN types lock-stock-and-barrel).

RAND thereafter, BSes its way through the study instead examining single variant aircraft like the V-22 & T-6A trainer, because that's all it had available. And it then concludes that 'based on historical data', three individual programs would have been cheaper than the single JSF program.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by vic »

Rs 3000 crores deal for piddly 380 missiles and no information about any ToT or offsets. And the main electronics package plus seeker is from USA ruled by Hussain the Bomber.
Last edited by vic on 09 Jul 2014 16:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

the chinooks were pushed into the deal as the only helis able to airlift the M777 in once piece. the Mi17v cannot.

if the M777 is not going to happen, it is better to get a few more Mi17v (we have a pipeline of 100+) than just couple dozen chinooks.

or use the money to get a few C130J which will be more useful.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by vic »

Kill Apaches and Chinooks from Bomber Hussian land and replace by LCH, Mi-17, LFG-105mm and Prahaar.
RKumar

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by RKumar »

Kill Apaches - I personally do not see requirement of it in near future.

Buy Chinooks - it can be used to created infrastructure in remote areas, which are difficult to access. It can move heavy equipment during peace/war time.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by abhik »

The Chinooks(or Mi-26s) is a TINA item, we have to eventually buy it. In case it wasn't posted earlier Livefist reported that India's Apache & Chinook Buys To Be Cleared This Month. Lets see.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by deejay »

I agree with abhik. The 'Heavy' heli-lift capability is needed. We use it at critical places. The difficulty in keeping Mi 26 operationally available long enough is well known. There really are very few alternatives.

I am not aware of details on Chinook's performance so whether it will be better in availability than the Mi-26, I do not know. But with the current age of the Mi-26 fleet either new Mi-26's or the Chinooks will be needed.

The Apache itself is in a different class than LCH and are a replacement for the Mi 25's /35's. One good question was the need of IAF to buy the Apache's since the Army is taking over these assets and their designated use.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by brar_w »

deejay wrote:I agree with abhik. The 'Heavy' heli-lift capability is needed. We use it at critical places. The difficulty in keeping Mi 26 operationally available long enough is well known. There really are very few alternatives.

I am not aware of details on Chinook's performance so whether it will be better in availability than the Mi-26, I do not know. But with the current age of the Mi-26 fleet either new Mi-26's or the Chinooks will be needed.

The Apache itself is in a different class than LCH and are a replacement for the Mi 25's /35's. One good question was the need of IAF to buy the Apache's since the Army is taking over these assets and their designated use.
From the top of my head both the Apache and the CH-47F had mission availability rates in excess of 80% in Afghanistan so peacetime availability rates should be around 80% or a couple of percentage points lower. The Brits actually were able to fly 20% more hours on the fleet then they had calculated given their own estimates on down times.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Picklu »

IF IJT goes back to clean slate, ARDC needs a thorough look see. Enough is enough :evil:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Austin »

Interview with Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha

IAF plans early induction of Rafale

New Delhi. India’s negotiations with French Dassault for the acquisition of 126 Rafale Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) “are progressing well” and the contract is likely “sooner than later in the current financial year 2014-15.”

This was stated by Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha in a comprehensive interview with India Strategic on the eve of the Farnborough Air Show, the first in fact after he assumed office about six months ago.

He was candid to acknowledge that IAF will have to retire several legacy squadrons of MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircraft in the coming years but he was also confident that the planned induction of the Rafale, and HAL’s indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will help “arrest the drawdown in the strength of the fighter squadrons.”

The number of Su-30MKI aircraft is also steadily increasing. IAF has planned induction of 272 Su-30MKIs, periodically upgraded, and nearly 60 per cent of them have already been inducted.

IAF’s proposed strength for combat aircraft is 42, to be reached by 2022. Because of the phasing out of the old aircraft like MiG-21s and MiG-23s, the current squadron strength is reported to be 34.

Air Chief Marshal Raha expressed confidence and observed: “Early induction of LCA and MMRCA has been planned for arresting the drawdown in the strength of fighter squadrons…. IAF is likely to have its sanctioned strength of combat squadrons operational sooner than later.”

IAF’s MMRCA Rafale Programme

On the urgent requirement of combat aircraft though, he pointed out: “The MMRCA CNC (Commercial Negotiations Committee) is presently negotiating various aspects of the contract with the L1 vendor, Dassault Aviation of France. The negotiations are progressing well. The contract for 126 MMRCA is expected to be signed sooner than later in the current FY 2014-15.”

He pointed out that as the Rafale induction was in accordance with the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2006, “Transfer of Technology (ToT) is not eligible towards discharge of ‘Offset’ obligations” but that the latest “revised offset guidelines permit greater flexibility for discharge of offset obligations.”

(Indian armed forces are hungry for ToT, and as the DPP has evolved, so is the clarity on how to get the best while buying expensive, modern defence systems. The emphasis on ToT was also stated as a priority by India’s top scientist, Dr Avinash Chander, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister and Director General of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in a separate interview with India Strategic. He also mentioned that India’s focus now was on induction of the latest hi-tech systems to support the armed forces and that the time has come for a “performance audit” to compare what is made in India with equivalent imported systems).

As for the Rafale induction, there is progress towards early finalisation in discussions. According to Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources, a few subcommittees are working to fine tune details towards the contract, and this should not take very long.

The big issue was the agreement between the vendor, Dassault International, and HAL which is the prime integrator for the project. HAL has negotiated more than 70 per cent work share for itself although Dassault was initially hesitant to agree as there were doubts about the state-run company’s credentials in meeting production timelines. Delays can result in penalties for the French vendor. Nonetheless, this issue is resolved.

Transport Aircraft

The Air Chief also disclosed that IAF’s newly acquired strategic transporter, Boeing C-17 Globemaster III, had been deployed to support UN missions in Congo as also to assist the Government of Tajikistan.

IAF had contracted for 10 C-17s. Five of these are operational from their base near New Delhi while the remaining five are due to be delivered within 2014 as per the contract.

He was also upbeat on the paradigm shift that C-17 and the C-130J Super Hercules had brought about “in our airlift capabilities.” IAF had inducted the first C-130J aircraft some three and half years ago and another six of these Special Operations aircraft are due to be added in 2016, he disclosed.

Air Chief Raha said: “The induction of C-17 and C-130J has brought about a paradigm shift in our airlift capabilities. The exceptional capabilities of the C-17 aircraft have enhanced our strategic footprint which impacts the concept of Strategic Airlift Operations. Though the process of operationalising the fleet is still in progress, it has already displayed potential by undertaking operations in support of the UN Mission in Congo and the Government of Tajikistan.

“The C-130 has flown with us for three and a half years and has emerged as a significant enabler for Special Operations, besides being extensively deployed for varied tasks. More importantly, these platforms have significantly enhanced our responsiveness in carrying out HADR (Humanitarian and Disaster Relief) operations.”

Force Multipliers

Air Chief Marshal Raha said the IAF is paying attention to all its assets, combat aircraft, transport aircraft, secure connectivity, reach of the assets, weapons and sensors, training and force multiplier aircraft like AWACS and Refuellers “to remain a contemporary aerospace power which possesses credible capability with a strategic footprint.”

Elaborating on some points, he said: To ensure the requisite degree of air surveillance and achieve air dominance in future operations, IAF needs to have adequate on-station capability in its ‘Area of Interest’. Towards this, IAF has already taken the first step of operationalising three AWACS, procured from abroad. Indigenous development of AEW&C by DRDO is in the developmental flight trials stage. These would be inducted in IAF after the trials are successfully accomplished.

“To leverage the experience and expertise gained in the Design & Development of AEW&C, a project for indigenous development of AWACS has been initiated. The project is envisaged in two phases. Phase I involves development of a prototype, followed by a mid-term review by a National Review Committee. Based on the success of Phase I of the indigenous AWACS, Phase II for production of additional AWACS will be initiated.”

Incidentally, the AWACS development project, led by DRDO, is quite ambitious and envisages latest technology radars on big aircraft like the Airbus A330 or Boeing 767. Notably, India has achieved significant milestones in radar technology.

Also, IAF has already decided to buy six A330 midair refuellers from Airbus Defence & Space, negotiations for which are in progress.

Sensor, Shooter Loop


Air Chief Marshal Raha said that the application of aerospace power would be decisive in winning the short and intense wars of the future, wherein the response would need to be prompt and precise.

Towards this, IAF envisages itself to be a multi-spectrum strategic force, a contemporary aerospace power which possesses credible capability with a strategic footprint.

The induction of state-of-the-art combat platforms like Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) – for which DRDO is working a co-development programme with Russia – and MMRCA as well as the ongoing upgradation of existing combat platforms would enable us to keep pace with the newer technologies which include long range multi-function radars, superior man-machine interface, high performance mission computers with data link, state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems, smart weapons and stealth capability.

The Air Chief pointed out: “IAF endeavours to seamlessly integrate maximum number of sensors, platforms and systems in the Integrated Air Command Control System (IACCS) network. Coupled with space assets and RPAs, this network would afford us ‘High Situational Awareness’ in a ‘Network Centric’ environment. Enabled by ICT (Information & Communication Technologies), the network would reduce the sensor to shooter time considerably.

IAF Transformation

About the ongoing Transformation of IAF, Air Chief Marshal Raha said that in accordance with IAF’s Long Term Integrated Perspective Plan (LTIPP), there is clear emphasis on force accretion in entire spectrum of IAF’s capability building including fighters, transport aircraft, helicopters, combat support assets and modernisation of air defence network.

“Net centricity, cyber security, and ensuring requisite communication bandwidth for seamless operations are also part of this capability. Space is increasingly being integrated into our day-to-day operations to give us the winning edge in any contingency. In order to absorb these new capabilities more efficiently, a time-bound and comprehensive infrastructure upgrade plan has been instituted.”

The plan envisages “acquisitions, upgrades and efficient management of legacy systems.”

Jaguar Upgrade

On the Jaguar upgrade, which involves putting the much more powerful Honeywell F-125 IN engine in these aircraft, Air Chief Marshal Raha said that he expected the contract negotiations to begin soon, and sign the documents within the current fiscal (ending March 2015).

IAF has more than 100 of these Anglo-French jets, acquired from the late 1970s as Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft (DPSA). Their upgradation with new power plants in fact will give them capability to fly over the mountains also, which is not there at present.

Then, simultaneously, the aircraft would be equipped with newer systems and sensors.

Said the Air Chief: “Yes, a case for re-engining of the Jaguar aircraft with F-125 IN engine is being actively pursued. Presently, the case is at Technical Oversight Stage, after which the contract negotiations will commence and we are hopeful of signing the contract in this financial year. Re-engining and concurrent upgrade of the Jaguar fleet will ensure its operational relevance till 2035.”

Training Aircraft

Air Chief Marshal Raha said that the induction of Pilatus PC-7 Mk II as a basic flying trainer has “met the long aspired requirements of the IAF.”

Its performance and average serviceability “has been exceptional and the OEM is providing proactive product support for maintaining enhanced serviceability of the fleet.” The fleet has flown more than 15,000 hours, executed over 25,000 landings” within a little more than one year.

Notably, the Air Chief visited the Air Force Academy in Hyderabad recently and also flew the aircraft himself. The young pilots there were happy at the induction of this aircraft from Switzerland.
srai
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by srai »

Picklu wrote:IF IJT goes back to clean slate, ARDC needs a thorough look see. Enough is enough :evil:
Not possible to restart from scratch. This is not a backroom science project that can be thrown out and restarted. The IAF needs the plane now and it could accept the plane (which is pretty far along in its flight testing) with some relaxation to its stringent requirements. Besides what is there to guarantee that issues won't crop up in a new design later on in testing as it has with the current design? If there are major changes to design then it will occur on Mk.2 or follow on enhancements.
saps
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by saps »

srai wrote:The IAF needs the plane now and it could accept the plane (which is pretty far along in its flight testing) with some relaxation to its stringent requirements.
And have fighter pilots or even pilots passing out flying academies with experience of only take off and landings.

Cause IJT cannot stall safely...forget about spinning and recovering.

But yes HAL would continue to develop it till cows have gone home with external assistance in design and development definitely :rotfl:
Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Indranil »

saps wrote: Cause IJT cannot stall safely...forget about spinning and recovering.
How do you know this? Even when spin tests where aborted, we don't know if it could have recovered or not. The test was simply aborted when entry into spin tests were not deemed to be safe. Anyways, modifications were made and tests are currently underway.
saps
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by saps »

indranilroy wrote:How do you know this? Even when spin tests where aborted, we don't know if it could have recovered or not. The test was simply aborted when entry into spin tests were not deemed to be safe.
Sorry not understood...spin test aborted. My memory recollects that two fine gentlemen had to eject out of due to aircraft NOT ABLE to recover.."IJT".... when undergoing spin tests.

I was informed about this by someone who's got access to one's involved with this never ending SAGA of testing...consulting & then testing..delay n foreign advisors n consulting again.

Ready to hear better things and proven wrong on this part. :D
Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Indranil »

Oh! I did not know this internal khabar. But I did analyze that it might have been the case from the debry field.
indranilroy wrote:
Image
The debry field does look very concentrated. I feel the prototype was falling on its belly. Might have indeed entered a flat spin.
Hmmm! Will wait and watch. :|
Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Aditya_V »

Why is the article silent on status of pilots?
Viv S
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Viv S »

Aditya_V wrote:Why is the article silent on status of pilots?
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) said that both the test pilots ejected to safety.
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