Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Jul 2014 09:32

Singha wrote:CNN/NYT are the Pravda of the good old soviet days.

What about fox?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jul 2014 09:40

Looks like Putin is the Russian Modi to US eyes.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Jul 2014 09:53

ramana wrote:Looks like Putin is the Russian Modi to US eyes.

Touche!

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 25 Jul 2014 11:47

From NW:

Very disturbing trend. And we have been seeing this for sometime now.

"Ukraine-Russia: The US accused Russia of escalating its support for the eastern Ukrainian separatists. A US State Department spokesperson said, " We have new evidence that the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers to separatist forces in Ukraine and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russian to attack Ukrainian military positions."

The State Department spokesperson said the evidence derived from "human intelligence information," but declined to elaborate, saying it would compromise sources and methods of intelligence collection.

Comment: Today's statement contains less information than meets the ear. The first red flag is the admission that the new evidence is human source information, not radio intercepts or imagery. Human source information is not the best evidence of military events that are observable by technological collectors. Such military events include convoy movements and artillery shelling from Russia.

US TV ran video clips of artillery fire, although the source of the information about shelling is from human sources, according to State, not ground-based video or other imagery sources. The video was file footage, but not labeled as such. Nor did it identify whose guns were firing and where the firing occurred. It was electronic age disinformation.

Another concern is that the shelling has been taking place for days to weeks, according to the press conference. However, no Ukrainian regime, army or National Guard propagandists or spokesmen have made claims about Russian artillery fire. It is inconceivable that Kyiv would remain silent about an act of aggression of this magnitude.

The third concern is the admission that some human sources reported that Russia "intends" to deliver heavier weapons and more powerful rocket launchers to the separatists. Intent, a mental condition, may be inferred from behavior of some kind: words spoken or physical action taken or both. Thus, for this evidence to be credible someone had to have heard someone else speaking or to have seen physical activities that imply intent, but not planning. The sources did not report that Russia "plans" to deliver equipment, only that it intends to do so. The State Department spokesperson also was not questioned about what people in the Russian leadership have this intent or when they formulated it and intend to act on it.

Finally, a Russian decision to provide more and heavier weapons to the separatists plus artillery fire support would mark a major shift in Russian policy for handling the Ukraine situation. The evidence could be accurate, but a shift of this magnitude would have many ripple effects in the open source information domain for many reasons. Those ripples have not been reported by any open sources.

At this point, today's press statement featured an unprofessional disclosure of raw intelligence. The shelling has not occurred. The other information is unconfirmed.
"

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Jul 2014 12:29

RSoami wrote:
The present Ukraine government is a zombie , they just do what their US masters tell them to do , they have been effectively taken over by US and just working as proxy
It was a kind of `betrayal` by the US. Had they not patted his back for all his previous stupidities?!
.

Well Nixon had done this to Hai-Hai Khan and has done it to its grade A munna Pakis multiple times including Kargil.

The morons do not learn. US needs these comic clowns to do US's dirty work, if the clowns need US for their dirty work, they have already outlived their utility.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Jul 2014 12:41

NightWatch, for the night of Jul 24, 2014, tears into US 'accusations' of Russia

Ukraine-Russia: The US accused Russia of escalating its support for the eastern Ukrainian separatists. A US State Department spokesperson said, " We have new evidence that the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers to separatist forces in Ukraine and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russian to attack Ukrainian military positions."

The State Department spokesperson said the evidence derived from "human intelligence information," but declined to elaborate, saying it would compromise sources and methods of intelligence collection.

Comment: Today's statement contains less information than meets the ear. The first red flag is the admission that the new evidence is human source information, not radio intercepts or imagery. Human source information is not the best evidence of military events that are observable by technological collectors. Such military events include convoy movements and artillery shelling from Russia.

US TV ran video clips of artillery fire, although the source of the information about shelling is from human sources, according to State, not ground-based video or other imagery sources. The video was file footage, but not labeled as such. Nor did it identify whose guns were firing and where the firing occurred. It was electronic age disinformation.{Truly a shame on you US TV}

Another concern is that the shelling has been taking place for days to weeks, according to the press conference. However, no Ukrainian regime, army or National Guard propagandists or spokesmen have made claims about Russian artillery fire. It is inconceivable that Kyiv would remain silent about an act of aggression of this magnitude.

The third concern is the admission that some human sources reported that Russia "intends" to deliver heavier weapons and more powerful rocket launchers to the separatists. Intent, a mental condition, may be inferred from behavior of some kind: words spoken or physical action taken or both. Thus, for this evidence to be credible someone had to have heard someone else speaking or to have seen physical activities that imply intent, but not planning. The sources did not report that Russia "plans" to deliver equipment, only that it intends to do so. The State Department spokesperson also was not questioned about what people in the Russian leadership have this intent or when they formulated it and intend to act on it.

Finally, a Russian decision to provide more and heavier weapons to the separatists plus artillery fire support would mark a major shift in Russian policy for handling the Ukraine situation. The evidence could be accurate, but a shift of this magnitude would have many ripple effects in the open source information domain for many reasons. Those ripples have not been reported by any open sources.

At this point, today's press statement featured an unprofessional disclosure of raw intelligence. The shelling has not occurred. The other information is unconfirmed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2014 14:13

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 25 Jul 2014 14:28

^^ May be not

http://indianexpress.com/article/world/ ... laysia/99/

The report notes:

Malaysia is one of Russia’s main trading partners in Southeast Asia. Russia also is a key supplier for Malaysia’s military, delivering 18 Sukhoi fighter jets to the Malaysian air force over the past decade.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2014 15:56

U.S.: Russia’s ‘actions, incredibly, are heading towards escalation of the crisis’

http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/2 ... he-crisis/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2014 15:57

ravi_g wrote:^^ May be not

http://indianexpress.com/article/world/ ... laysia/99/

The report notes:
Malaysia is one of Russia’s main trading partners in Southeast Asia. Russia also is a key supplier for Malaysia’s military, delivering 18 Sukhoi fighter jets to the Malaysian air force over the past decade.

I think thats July 20th report , since they they got the black box and Malaysian PM had also Thanked Russia for helping it get done.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2014 15:58

HRW blames Kiev army for indiscriminately killing civilians with missiles

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 25 Jul 2014 16:06

ravi_g wrote:^^ May be not

http://indianexpress.com/article/world/ ... laysia/99/

The report notes:
Malaysia is one of Russia’s main trading partners in Southeast Asia. Russia also is a key supplier for Malaysia’s military, delivering 18 Sukhoi fighter jets to the Malaysian air force over the past decade.

All these articles are a copy of what comes first in the western press. +- one or two lines. Since the media fellows didnt know russian, they copied western news articles earlier. Now with the advent of internet and every russian outlet also letting out its versions of the story in english, we can only wonder what is the excuse of the Indian media peddling only the western/american line. Other than low IQ of course.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2014 16:27

Serious economic measures are the only language that Russia will understand,” the British prime minister believes

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/742255

vic · Post by **vic** » 25 Jul 2014 16:30

I think USA UK Saudi Cabal wants to kill off German Russian economic combination.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Jul 2014 18:40

Guys, please I am not being insensitive and heartless, it is indeed a tragedy some many people dying in that crash for no fault of their's. But what intrigues me is that amount of air time, passion, tears by US media personalities (and I think these are genuine tears, not crocodile tears: you should have seen Dr. Sanjay Gupta's emotions on CNN as they showed the victims arriving in Netherlands), the calls for punishing Russia, you name it. But above all, what caught my attention is the Aussie pipsqueaks joining the fray

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28478941

So what explains this outpouring? White western (Catholic/Protestant) tribalismand brotherhood? Remember, in the famous clash of civilizations discourse, Russia is part of the orthodox Christian Church, a far cry from the purest of thouroughbreds: white protestant/Catholic.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 25 Jul 2014 19:32

Looks like some significant sanctions maybe imposed on Russia. The author acknowledges some serious consequences for Europe, but they are determined to go ahead all the same. Just why are France and Germany, which have a lot at stake with Russia in arms trade and energy respectively, so eager to impose sanctions?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... e19765024/

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Jul 2014 19:52

the German auto companies and manufacturing sector are still not in control of US oligarchs, so the war is on Germany as well as Russia.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 25 Jul 2014 20:19

TOI: Australia to send troops to the MH17 crash site.
They do not know what they are getting in.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Jul 2014 20:41

Unkil proposes, younger brothers dispose

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 25 Jul 2014 20:59

"One of the most striking characteristics of this crisis to me has been how the Kremlin has weaponized information. How the Kremlin has used this information warfare to sow fear.”

What a ridiculous phrase "weaponized information". It shows the US govt is frustrated that they no longer monopolize the airwaves and print media. The internet has given people in the west easy access to the Russian side of the story, whereas in the past the US govt could always count on its citizens being dutifully programmed by CNN, Fox, NYT, etc.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 25 Jul 2014 21:28

Weaponizing information is what exactly US is doing...every website, every link that shows up in Guuugle, every egg-spurt is simply toeing the same lines over and over.

This blitz is akin to what happened with Osama "hit" with a ton of zilch in brooof...

Aussies absolutely must know what they are getting in....it is their place (to serve their UK masters) in the scheme of things.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Jul 2014 21:34

A 3rd WW shaping up? US, UK, Aussies on one side and Russia-Germany on the other?

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 25 Jul 2014 21:45

As Shreeman ji suggested, part (or whole) objective behind this media blitzkrieg is to divert attention from their major F'up in middle-east even if it costs a minor F'up in Europe.

Attention diversion from Israel's excesses, ISIS's genocide, US foreign policy disaster, local economy (Q1 revised GDP down, Q2 isn't look good either - if goes down US will be in official recession), BRICS downplay...all at once.

There is so much for US to cover up.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2014 22:15

Satya_anveshi wrote:As Shreeman ji suggested, part (or whole) objective behind this media blitzkrieg is to divert attention from their major F'up in middle-east even if it costs a minor F'up in Europe.

Attention diversion from Israel's excesses, ISIS's genocide, US foreign policy disaster, local economy (Q1 revised GDP down, Q2 isn't look good either - if goes down US will be in official recession), BRICS downplay...all at once.

There is so much for US to cover up.

Me think the same , US Media like CNN is playing MH-17 24x7 and giving little airtime to Gaza , ME issues .....its a blessing in disguise for Obama whose FP has been a disaster.

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 25 Jul 2014 22:43

See how the US media covered the US shoot-down of Iran Air 655 versus KAL 007 in the past. No different now:
http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/k ... n-air-655/

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 25 Jul 2014 23:45

Austin wrote:
Satya_anveshi wrote:As Shreeman ji suggested, part (or whole) objective behind this media blitzkrieg is to divert attention from their major F'up in middle-east even if it costs a minor F'up in Europe.

Attention diversion from Israel's excesses, ISIS's genocide, US foreign policy disaster, local economy (Q1 revised GDP down, Q2 isn't look good either - if goes down US will be in official recession), BRICS downplay...all at once.

There is so much for US to cover up.
Me think the same , US Media like CNN is playing MH-17 24x7 and giving little airtime to Gaza , ME issues .....its a blessing in disguise for Obama whose FP has been a disaster.

It seems to be more than just sidetracking of ME fnckups. The CNN coverage of the bodies arriving in Netherlands smacks heavily of "civilized vs savage", singling out the pro-Russian Ukrainians only as the savages of course, not the pro-West Ukrainians who are obviously civilized. But maybe its just the inbred WASP instinct showing through in a moment of stress, who knows.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 25 Jul 2014 23:47

Madhusudhan wrote:See how the US media covered the US shoot-down of Iran Air 655 versus KAL 007 in the past. No different now:
http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/k ... n-air-655/

Brilliant article. Spot on

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 25 Jul 2014 23:58

To mock President Putin’s pride and test his paranoia is folly

Great article by Simon Jenkins of the Guardian.

Visiting Russia in the 1990s after its humiliation in the cold war, I found it a sad and dangerous place, not unlike Germany after its defeat in 1918. Yet it was as if no western diplomat had read the Treaty of Versailles, or noted Keynes’ warning of the consequences. Much was done to build economic ties between west and east. Energy, investment and contacts flowed back and forth. Western companies cavorted with oligarchs and kleptocrats. Money stolen from the Russian people gushed into the wildcat banks of Cyprus and London and into the Swiss and British property markets. London must rank as the greatest receiver of stolen goods of all time.

So far, so good. But at the same time, Nato and the EU rolled forward over eastern Europe to the Russian frontier, as if aiming its guns at the gates of Moscow to taunt Russia for its defeat. Nato apologists argued that any country, be it Latvia, Georgia or Ukraine, should be free to join whichever club it liked (albeit objecting when Crimeans voted the other way). Yet only fools can ignore the fact of Russian pride and fear of encirclement. The post-cold war provocation of Putin was good public relations, but it was rotten history.

For Britain – or America – to try and lay down the law along Russia’s extensive borders is barking mad; to use a tragic plane accident as casus belli equally so. It is nothing but breast-beating machismo. Yet again we lurch towards the woolly-headed daftness of economic sanctions. It is beyond hypocrisy for the west to demand sanctions against Moscow when it happily buys Russian gas and sells Russia guns, ships, Knightsbridge flats and places at Eton. These double-standards are of our hand. According to the commons committee on arms exports, Britain currently sells arms worth £12bn to 27 countries listed by the Foreign Office as “of human rights concern”. It cannot enhance world peace to make Europe’s energy more expensive, Russian loans harder to get or Harrods less accessible to “Putin’s cronies”. Putin could not care less.

The emergence in Moscow in the 1990s of a tough, philistine nationalist like Putin was a near certainty. He may be a nasty piece of work but he runs what it is still a powerful nation. Mocking his pride and testing his paranoia is for fools. The one country that knows this and can keep a sane head on its shoulders is run by Angela Merkel. Thank goodness for Germany.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 26 Jul 2014 03:44

I'm copying-and-pasting this article from Saker on the latest developments. (This is permitted by his fair-use policy.)
______________________

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/ ... saker.html

Well, I am still running around, but while in the car I watched some rather interesting shows on Russian TV including one called "Politics with Peter Tolstoi" who had a bunch of interesting guests talking about the issue of MH17 shot down over Novorussia. Here again, I got very little time, are some bullet-points of some of what they said:

1) MH17 was most likely not shot down by a Buk but by an R-60M air-to-air missile shot from a Ukie Su-25 which has a non-pressurized cockpit (being a close air support aircraft) but whose engines can easily bring him that high up and whose pilot can breathe oxygen through a mask. At such altitudes, however, the Su-25 is rather slow, but that lack of speed is easily compensated by the speed of the R-60M air-to-air missile whose ideal engagement distant is 3-5km which is *exactly* how far the Su-25 was from MH17. The main evidence that it was an R-60M missile which hit MH17 is in the radar signal which shows that the aircraft was not ripped into shreds as would be the case with the massive warhead of the Buk SAM, and the fact that even on the ground the body of the plane does not appear to be shredded the way a Buk warhead would.

2) The reason why the Ukie SBU immediately seized the recording of the conversations between the Kiev ATC and MH17 is because the so-called "black boxes" ended up in Resistance hands. The reason why Holland agreed to have the British "decode" these recorders was because they were told so by the USA. The Brits will now let the NSA falsify the data and that falsification will be coordinated with the SBU in Kiev which will eventually release the recordings who will, surprise surprise, full "confirm" the "authenticity" of the NSA-doctored recordings from the UK. Formally, it will be the Dutch which will announce it all in order to better hide the US/UK role in all this.

3) Besides the Russians and the Americans, the Europeans also know what happened (I can personally confirm that I know for a fact that several European countries have their own monitoring systems which observe everything West of the Urals. The Saker)

4) Several guests said that they believed that since the MH17 false flag is turning into a flop, the next step will be to blow up a Ukie nuclear plant and blame Russia.

5) Banderastan has apparently signed 8 agreements with NATO to hold joint exercises in the Ukraine. Most of them are scheduled for September 1st, the date at which Poroshenko has promised to be finished with the repression of the Donbass.

6) One guest declared that he has it from a very solid source in the USA that MH17 was planned by the USA and that the Ukies botched the execution. The plan was for the aircraft to fall into the Rostov region of Russia.

7) One idea which was floated around again is this: to declare that unless the atrocities in the Donbass stop, Russia will recognize the Donetsk and Lugansk Republics. The idea here is to say that IF these republics are recognized, then Russia could then do the same as in Abkhazia and South Ossetia i.e., send in as many military forces as needed to stop the aggression. In terms of international law, this would not be the same as breaching the borders of the Ukraine. Besides, it would mean to exactly the same for Novorussia as the US/NATO are officially doing for the Wahabi insurgency in Syria or what the US did in Kosovo.

8) There was a consensus amongst the guests that future sanctions against Russia are absolutely inevitable simply because the USA is dead set on this idea. However, the Russians are also sure that these sanction won't bite much and that as long as Russia does not give the US a reason for force the EU to cut itself off the Russian energy supply no real sanctions will be applied.

9) All the guests agreed that Russian should continue to provide covert military and over political aid to Novorussia.

In other news tonight, Russian sources are reporting at least two major defeats for the Ukie forces including one near the town of Georgievka near the Lugansk Airport (still held by the Ukies, but surrounded) were the Ukies lost 30 soliders and several armored vehicles. The Ukie death squad "Donbass" (which is the past had already been completely wiped out twice) is again surrounded near Donetsk.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 26 Jul 2014 04:32

Satya_anveshi wrote:As Shreeman ji suggested, part (or whole) objective behind this media blitzkrieg is to divert attention from their major F'up in middle-east even if it costs a minor F'up in Europe....

Is the objective really to cover up other things or keep Russia so busy on the border that the chosen ones can finish their half complete Seerian job?

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 26 Jul 2014 05:12

It benefits US from multiple angles and that's why they are going hammer and tongs on this. But, we, as independent 3rd party, should look at things objectively and secure our interests. At the minimum recognize and reveal the strategy for as many more people as possible and reduce the effectiveness of its future use.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Jul 2014 05:30

The Ukis and the Pakis (how well they rhyme!) appear to have some common DNA. One common trait is the ease with which they lie with their teeth.We've seen this with Paki talking heads on telly,esp. those with ex-military backgrounds.sadly,they think that the world will swallow their puke.

The latest UKR joke is that the rebels couldn't have shot down the 2 SU-25s (it was Putin wot did it!) as they do not have the capability to do so!!! So how did they then shoot down the higher flying MH-17?

Is Kiev lying? Or is Kiev lying?

Eric Draitser is an independent geopolitical analyst based in New York City and the founder of StopImperialism.com.
Published time: July 25, 2014 13:25
People walk near the wreckage of Malaysia Airlines MH17 that crashed last Thursday, near Hrabove (Grabovo) in the Donetsk region July 23, 2014. (Reuters / Maxim Zmeyev)

The current conflict in Ukraine provides a plethora of examples of the power of doublethink in shaping narratives in order to justify any actions, beliefs, and statements that are either untrue or so grossly distorted as to be entirely unbelievable.

The novelist George Orwell coined the term doublethink in his classic dystopian novel 1984. He defined doublethink as “The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them...To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies.”

Although the concept is elucidated in a work of fiction, it has clear and unmistakable parallels in the real world that, like Oceania – the supranational state in which the novel takes place – is in a state of constant war, and seemingly has been from time immemorial.

For anyone following the situation in eastern Ukraine closely, and specifically the accusations made by Kiev against both the anti-government rebels and Russia, it seems that Oscar Wilde’s quip that “life imitates art” is undoubtedly true. For it is clear that doublethink is a fundamental part of how the regime in Kiev sees this conflict, its role in it, and the narrative it wishes to tell the world.
Double thinking MH17, the rebels, and Russia

As the world’s attention has been focused on eastern Ukraine in the wake of the tragic downing of Malaysia Airlines flight 17, the rhetoric coming from Kiev (and its patrons in Washington) has been provocative to say the least. Referring to the eastern rebels as “terrorists,” the nominal government of Ukraine has accused the rebels of being responsible for shooting down MH17. According to their claims, the forces fighting the Kiev regime shot down MH17 with sophisticated Buk anti-aircraft missile systems supplied by Russia. Naturally, such accusations imply that Kiev believes that the rebels have the capability of carrying out such a highly technical and logistically difficult attack.

Indeed, Kiev’s assertions are supported by the US, with the State Department, as well as unnamed intelligence officials speaking with various western media outlets, echoing the sentiments of its client government in Ukraine. As the Wall Street Journal reported on July 19th:

“New US intelligence assessments indicate that Moscow likely provided pro-Russia separatists in eastern Ukraine with sophisticated antiaircraft systems in recent days, matching evidence put forward by Ukraine and bolstering charges that Russia was the source of the weapon that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 this week, killing 298... US officials say they now suspect that Russia supplied the rebels with multiple SA-11 antiaircraft systems by smuggling them into eastern Ukraine with other military equipment, including tanks.”

A Malaysian air crash investigator inspects the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, near the village of Hrabove (Grabovo), Donetsk region July 22, 2014. (Reuters / Maxim Zmeyev)

And so, both Ukraine and the US have reached the conclusion that, not only did the anti-government rebels have the motive and opportunity, they had the means to down MH17 as well. Despite the fact that neither Kiev nor Washington has provided hard evidence to back up their assertions, they have continued to maintain that only the rebels, with Russian assistance, could have been responsible for shooting down a commercial airliner flying at 30,000 feet. They maintain that the rebels were armed by Russia and were entirely capable of carrying out this attack.

OK, so even if we might doubt the claims of Kiev and Washington, at least they are consistent, right? Well, not exactly.
On Wednesday July 23rd reports out of Donetsk indicated that two of the Ukrainian military’s ground attack planes had been shot down near the area where MH17 was downed. While these latest developments are no surprise given the fact that Kiev’s forces are still engaging in military operations despite calls for a ceasefire to allow the MH17 investigation to occur, what is interesting are the comments from Ukrainian officials.

Asked about the downing of these two jets, Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the Ukrainian National Security Council, stated, “They were not downed by terrorists [anti-Kiev rebels]...According to our preliminary information it was done from across the border.” So, despite having no evidence to support the claim, the Kiev authorities continue to accuse Russia, not the rebels, of downing the planes. As Neil Buckley of the Financial Times wrote:

“The Ukrainians alleged Russian forces were involved in shooting down a Ukrainian An-26 transport plane and another Su-25 last week before the Malaysian aircraft was downed over rebel controlled territory. In both cases Ukrainian officials said they did not believe the rebels had the technology to shoot down planes at the height at which they were flying [emphasis added]. Russia denied any involvement.”

An armed member of self-defenses forces stands guard at the site of the crash of the Il-76 Ukrainian army transport plane in Luhansk June 14, 2014. (Reuters / Shamil Zhumatov)

Wait, what? We have been hearing for days that the rebels do in fact have the capability to shoot down planes at any altitude thanks to the Buk (SA-11 in NATO speak) provided by the alleged Russian backers. So, which is it? Either the rebels do, or do not, have the capability.

It seems that, rather than basing their assertions on facts and evidence, the regime in Kiev and its patrons in Washington have been playing fast and loose with facts, fitting them into their preconceived narrative in which everything bad that happens is because of Russia and “Russian aggression,” and any evidence to the contrary is seen as merely “Russian propaganda.” However, deflecting attention away from the facts can only get you so far. Eventually, people start asking questions and becoming skeptical of your credibility. Indeed, this is precisely the point at which Kiev finds itself today.

The doublethink is self-evident. The anti-government rebels have the technology and capability to shoot down MH17, and simultaneously do not have the technology and capability to shoot down the easier targets of the Ukrainian jets. Obviously, the statements coming from the Ukrainian authorities are based on political expediency rather than facts and evidence. Perhaps this is why, at every opportunity, they proclaim that Russia is behind everything that happens in eastern Ukraine. Because, as anyone who has ever lied knows, lies are like the proverbial snowball rolling down the hill.

Orwell wrote of doublethink:

“To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself – that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed.”

While Orwell was describing his fictional dystopia of Oceania ruled by “the Party,” he might as well have been describing Kiev’s mentality and public posture today. Of course, the same could be said for the US State Department and political establishment throughout this crisis. Indeed, the untruths, omissions, and distortions have reached new levels. In time however, their “carefully constructed lies” will all fall away, leaving their false narrative exposed for the world to see. For the sake of the people of eastern Ukraine, and those of us around the world who shudder at the thought of further US-Russia escalations, let us hope that moment comes sooner rather than later.

http://rt.com/
US pulling out its Cold War-era plans over Ukraine conflict, top commander admits
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Army Gen. Martin Dempsey. (AFP Photo / Getty Images / T.J. Kirkpatrick)

Sanctions against Russia spark AK-47 buying frenzy in US
The latter report is hilarious.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 26 Jul 2014 06:48

Philip wrote:The Ukis and the Pakis (how well they rhyme!) appear to have some common DNA. One common trait is the ease with which they lie with their teeth.
..

More than lying, the common trait is allowing their countries to be prostitutes for someone else. Allowing others to use them, being an intermediary for someone else's fight. What a tragedy.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 26 Jul 2014 09:38

No chance of a WW-3. The last two have left a good taste of steal in their mouths. In any case they all know that if the Russians get it inside their head to go all out, then nothing in western urop would survive - Nato or Nota would not make much difference either. Ameirkhans actually have a good relationship of trust with their MSM and it is a sell out. Hunks of Amerikhan MSM would simply be bought out by those opposing the war.

It could be good for India though if it does happen. With the Western urop gone Amerikhans would be standing alone. This time I hope no Indian takes part unlike in the first two

Ok that was an attempted dark humor.

.............................................

But the following is not humor.

One thing that got me hooked to BRF is the long long memory of the people on here. Gajendra sized memories. One such Gajendra posted a link above and here is the relevant portion putting on full display the Amerikhan lie.

As soon as the Iranian Airbus crashed into the Persian Gulf, the Reagan administration set out to discourage what should have been obvious comparisons between the Soviet Union's tragic mistake and our tragic mistake. The New York Times and other media uncritically quoted the president's July 4 resurrection of his administration's timeworn deceit: "Remember the KAL, a group of Soviet fighter planes went up, identified the plane for what it was and then proceeded to shoot it down. There's no comparison."

Virtually ignored was a key finding of Seymour Hersh's 1986 book The Target Is Destroyed -- that the Reagan administration knew within days of the KAL shootdown that the Soviets had believed it to be a military aircraft on a spy mission. Soviet commanders had no idea that they were tracking a plane with civilians on board. The Times had acknowledged this long after the fact in an editorial, "The Lie That Wasn't Shot Down" (1/18/88); yet when Reagan lied again, they failed again to shoot it down.

Instead, Times correspondent R.W. Apple, Jr. (7/5/88) weighed in with an analysis headlined, "Military Errors: The Snafu as History". In his lead, Apple observed that "the destruction of an Iranian airliner...came as a sharp reminder of the pervasive role of error in military history." The piece drew many parallels to the Iran jetliner's tragic end -- citing examples from the American Revolution, World War II and Vietnam -- while ignoring the most obvious analogy. About the KAL 007 shootdown, Apple said not a word.

If anything, the recent tragedy was less defensible than the KAL disaster. The Iran Air jet went down in broad daylight, well within its approved commercial airline course over international waters, without ever having strayed into any unauthorized air space. In contrast, the Korean plane flew way off course, deep into Soviet territory above sensitive military installations, in the dead of night.

But, as with Washington's policy-makers, the mass media was intent on debunking relevant comparisons rather than exploring them. The government's public relations spin quickly became the mass media's: A tragic mishap had occurred in the Persian Gulf, amid puzzling behavior of the passenger jet. Blaming the victim was standard fare, as reporters focused on the plight of U.S.S. Vincennes commander Capt. Will Rodgers III, whose picture appeared on tabloid covers (7/5/88) with bold headlines: "Captain's Anguish" (Newsday) and "Captain's Agony" (New York Post).

Sounds like White man's burden.

I think Vincennes should now show a Cut-Rose from out of its Vertical launchers. That would be very graceful.

Additionally they could try putting a 5th generation SAM on that thing. The one that can distinguish a dangerous muslim on a prayer mat from a relatively more staid 'green on green affair'.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2014 10:59

A Nice 40 mins talk with Prof Stephen Cohen

Stephen Cohen: Is a Russian-American War on the Horizon?

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 26 Jul 2014 15:30

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 028661.cms

And the headline is : Russia steps up help for rebels in Ukraine war

A direct copy. Complete copy of news article from New York Times. Amazing. Do they even realise what they are doing ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2014 16:37

yes it has the NYT reporters name under the headline.

but in India's case I think the western govts are happy to let this go on unchecked because tens of millions of indians open the TOI every morning and get their world news shaped by whatever they have sucked from NYT/WP/BBC/CNN et al. with zero effort , they are able to 100% publish their view in the largest newspapers and tv channels in india...what could be better ?

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 26 Jul 2014 17:38

Long one but read in full

MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 26 Jul 2014 18:24

Warning: Graphic Content
A video said to be that of Kiev forces shelling civilians.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 26 Jul 2014 18:38

I am not a conspiracy theory buff, my gut feel is that its the ethnic Russian rebels figing the pro-west Ukranian govt that mistakenly brought down the plane, and I certainly don't think Putin had anything to do with this, but one thing I am noticing is that irrespective of who brought that plane down, in the ensuing chaos, Unkil is milking this to his benefit by going after Putin. And so is Ukraine.

And that is obscene as even Prof. Sephen Cohen notes (same name, but he is a far cry from TSP pasand Uneven). Note on CNN (unofficial US mouthpiece) its about Putin firing on Ukraine troops, Russia's support to rebels, lack of security at the crash site, and of course Unkil's "we white westerners are so superior" favorite theme: see how Netherlands treat the victims with dignity in contrast to whats happening at the crash site etc (and of course, to cover up his guilt over what his Bibi is doing to Palestinian women and children in Gaza, the propaganda is oh we are so compassionate onlee, but Hamas is using women and children as human shields).

Unkil has definitely gone a bit slow on the "mountain of evidence" and instead his mouthpieces are harping on concomitant issues, basically keeping the pressure and embarrassing Putin, but l am not seeing too much by way of evidence.