Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jul 2014 02:58

Prof Srikant Talegeri's third book

Rigveda and Avestha

From IF. All about OIT.

Basically proto-Iranians came from Kashmir (pre-Rig Vedic) and Punjab (Early Rig Vedic).

wig · Post by **wig** » 16 Jul 2014 09:52

10,000-year-old rock paintings depicting aliens and UFOs found in Chhattisgarh

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 435091.cms

CHARAMA (Chhattisgarh): Chhattisgarh state department of archaeology and culture plans to seek help from Nasa and Isro for research on 10,000-year-old rock paintings depicting aliens and UFOs in Charama region in Kanker district in tribal Bastar region.

According to archaeologist JR Bhagat, these paintings have depicted aliens like those shown in Hollywood and Bollywood flicks. Located about 130km from Raipur, the caves come under village Chandeli and Gotitola.

"The findings suggest that humans in prehistoric times may have seen or imagined beings from other planets which still create curiosity among people and researchers. Extensive research is needed for further findings. Chhattisgarh presently doesn't have any such expert who could give clarity on the subject," Bhagat told TOI.

There are several beliefs among locals in these villages. While few worship the paintings, others narrate stories they have heard from ancestors about "rohela people" — the small sized ones — who used to land from sky in a round shaped flying object and take away one or two persons of village who never returned.

"The paintings are done in natural colours that have hardly faded despite the years. The strangely carved figures are seen holding weapon-like objects and do not have clear features. Specially, the nose and mouth are missing. In few pictures, they are even shown wearing space suits. We can't refute possibility of imagination by prehistoric men but humans usually fancy such things," the archaeologist said.

He added that it is a co-incidence that such ancient images appear to have sharp resemblance to UFOs shown in alien movies. "The fan-like antenna and three legs of vehicle's stand clearly show a similarity to UFO type craft," he said.

Other archaeologists would also be consulted for further verification.

there are some photographs of the paintings in the article, which I do not know how to post here

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 16 Jul 2014 10:24

The post above suits better to the Archeology thread (atleast for now). Mods may please move or x-post.

Interesting comments at the article :
1. That the submerged Dwarka near current Gujarat coastline has articles dated back 12,000 years.
2. That exactly identical looking cave paintings have been found around the world - France, Australia etc.

I'm wondering, is this a depiction of a real sighting thousand of years back?
Or was this just some idel brain etching his imagination?

Fascinating find nevertheless !!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jul 2014 20:20

Virendra wrote:The post above suits better to the Archeology thread (atleast for now). Mods may please move or x-post.

Interesting comments at the article :
1. That the submerged Dwarka near current Gujarat coastline has articles dated back 12,000 years.
2. That exactly identical looking cave paintings have been found around the world - France, Australia etc.

I'm wondering, is this a depiction of a real sighting thousand of years back?
Or was this just some idel brain etching his imagination?

Fascinating find nevertheless !!

I can't believe those images! It almost looks like someone has spoofed them. I mean - I have seen a whole lot of "suspicious" looking images of aliens in books (Daniken) and mags - but this alien in helmet and space suit and three legged vehicle is straight out of contemporary sci fi. The paint will need dating - and certainly its color and black blotches matches with other images.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Jul 2014 20:27

Indeed. Some skepticism is in order here... Looks ridiculously contemporary, Roswellian head shape and all...

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 21 Jul 2014 17:01

Russian/Slavic version of Vedas and OIT ? Digesting vedas, Russian style ?

Ynglism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglism#mw-navigation

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 22 Jul 2014 15:19

Rony wrote:Russian/Slavic version of Vedas and OIT ? Digesting vedas, Russian style ?

Ynglism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglism#mw-navigation

This is nothing but "New Age" nonsense. There is no Veda or OIT in this link. Just a bunch of Russian loonies.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 28 Jul 2014 06:19

Reminded me of the unicorns on Indus Valley seals.
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-ques ... the-bible/

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 30 Jul 2014 16:31

http://www.mysteryofindia.com/2014/07/c ... ayana.html
Someone is trying to connect a few dots here. Identifying a Ramayana city in present day world.
Has Nilesh ji seen this already?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 02 Aug 2014 11:50

Getting objective about it

If so where did the Aryans originate? In the accompanying book, Mr Wood mentions that many Indian scholars and polemicists believe that Aryans were indigenous to India. Gavin Flood, senior lecturer in religious studies at the University of Stirling, Scotland, is neither an Indian nor a polemicist, but in his book Introduction to Hinduism, he mentions the Aryan migration theory, but also the alternate: the cultural transformation thesis. According to this view, the Aryan culture was an indigenous development in the Indus valley, uninfluenced by invaders or migrants. Thus Hinduism evolved with the Aryan culture interacting with non-Aryan and tribal cultures. This cultural transformation thesis works well with the Out of India theory according to which India is the Indo-European homeland from where some groups migrated to Central and West Asia and Europe.

For this we need to evolve from Stalinised history and saffronised history to objective history— on Aryan theory, on Hindu-Muslim relations, on Independence struggle—by weeding out absurd ‘nationalist’ claims and distortions written for religious appeasement. Theories on the origins of Indian civilisation must correlate with archaeological, linguistic and genetic evidence. The standard for acceptance of theories and hypotheses must not be government approval, religious sanction or secular ideological compliance, but rather ability to withstand the scientific stress test on a level playing field.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 05 Aug 2014 01:57

Has the Original SDstan, Land of Our Ancestors, been reduced to a desert island off Odisha?

Two of the trawlers Suryanarayan and Maharudra had capsized 10 kilometre away from Jambu Dwip.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 05 Aug 2014 06:05

Virendra wrote:http://www.mysteryofindia.com/2014/07/c ... ayana.html
Someone is trying to connect a few dots here. Identifying a Ramayana city in present day world.
Has Nilesh ji seen this already?

This is AIT thru back door. Romila Thapar's crackpot theories from 80's include all Vedic cities having similar names outside India in Iran to Caucausus-and Aryans named Indian towns (like New Jersey, New Ayodhya etc) This is totally discredited. Even here the author uses the same principles... probably... therefore... hence... bingo, other AIT thugs will quote these as facts with out a shread of scientific evidence.

There is a recent article in the journal "Cell" that Marvin has posted in social media that shows more studies on Indians being Indigenous to India. I read the abstract. I will try to get the full article (it is a subscription journal).
When in doubt believe in DNA. It will set you free.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 Aug 2014 09:33

Anantha: here is the link to that paper by Metspalu. It has been discussed in this thread before. An important paper

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9711004885

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Aug 2014 14:36

Prem Kumar wrote:Anantha: here is the link to that paper by Metspalu. It has been discussed in this thread before. An important paper

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9711004885

Also 2-3 papers that came out after this one including one by Thangaraj and another by Priya Moorjani. Which is the "Cell" paper?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 05 Aug 2014 15:36

I may have posted this image earlier on BRF but here it is again.

This photo is of an altar with a water tank that resembles a Shivling which I found in 2005 at an ancient Greek settlement on the western coast of Italy at a place called Paestum (half hour south of Naples). The altar was aligned East-West, and located at the edge of a Greek temple, and possibly predates that temple. Greeks were one of the earliest settlers on the Italian mainland.

Paestum

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 05 Aug 2014 16:08

Do you remember the direction of the steps at the mouth of Yoni?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 05 Aug 2014 18:37

prahaar wrote:Do you remember the direction of the steps at the mouth of Yoni?

I think it faced the temple, therefore west.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 05 Aug 2014 19:01

I have a serious question:

Per my (proved beyond all doubt) certainty, human civilization, philosophy etc were first able to grow in places where the climate was survivable year-round (proof: standing up for 3 hours proclaiming "VietnamilenthusambhavikkunnooooooCambodiayilenthusambhavikkunooooo" to a paid crowd of drunken Comrades (OK, questionable as a sign of humanity or civilization, but..) is pretty difficult when it is -15 deg outside with a wind chill to -40.

This points clearly to ancient India, even b4 it left Australia on a journey to be near Pakistan.

It clearly negates theories such as AIT, and the Out of Africa theory since Arabia and north Africa have not been hospitable to anything except vultures and scorpions for a very long time now.

JEM's recent post about the Congo answered one question: why didn't civilization flourish in Central/Equatorial Africa? It's just too dense jungle with all sorts of predators from the micro to the macro. What civilization COULD develop, DID: Gorillas. Gentle, smart, strong-silent types, caring creatures able to scare away the odd lion or hyena without much trouble. Also chimpanzees who could traverse the jungle through the tree cover. Also a heck of a lot smarter and more peaceful/civilized than humans. They are even able to communicate with lesser species such as western chimpanzeeologists, and get fed by them. Ever heard of a human getting fed bananas by a chimpanzee? Q.E.D. Compare a gorilla or a chimp to a British Pace Bowler or ICC official or US State Department Diplomat and .. it's such an insult to the gorilla/chimp!

BUT... what about South Africa? At least the northern parts, or Zimbabwe? Humanity must have settled there a VERY long time ago, hain? Has anyone checked into this? African natives by skin, eye and hair color, are obviously VERY well adapted (translation: very highly evolved) to sunny, warm climates. Where are the signs of the truly ancient African civilizations? All destroyed by the invaders or their own usual mutual interactions?

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 05 Aug 2014 23:06

UlanBatori wrote:I have a serious question:

Per my (proved beyond all doubt) certainty, human civilization, philosophy etc were first able to grow in places where the climate was survivable year-round (proof: standing up for 3 hours proclaiming "VietnamilenthusambhavikkunnooooooCambodiayilenthusambhavikkunooooo" to a paid crowd of drunken Comrades (OK, questionable as a sign of humanity or civilization, but..) is pretty difficult when it is -15 deg outside with a wind chill to -40.

This points clearly to ancient India, even b4 it left Australia on a journey to be near Pakistan.

It clearly negates theories such as AIT, and the Out of Africa theory since Arabia and north Africa have not been hospitable to anything except vultures and scorpions for a very long time now.

JEM's recent post about the Congo answered one question: why didn't civilization flourish in Central/Equatorial Africa? It's just too dense jungle with all sorts of predators from the micro to the macro. What civilization COULD develop, DID: Gorillas. Gentle, smart, strong-silent types, caring creatures able to scare away the odd lion or hyena without much trouble. Also chimpanzees who could traverse the jungle through the tree cover. Also a heck of a lot smarter and more peaceful/civilized than humans. They are even able to communicate with lesser species such as western chimpanzeeologists, and get fed by them. Ever heard of a human getting fed bananas by a chimpanzee? Q.E.D. Compare a gorilla or a chimp to a British Pace Bowler or ICC official or US State Department Diplomat and .. it's such an insult to the gorilla/chimp!

BUT... what about South Africa? At least the northern parts, or Zimbabwe? Humanity must have settled there a VERY long time ago, hain? Has anyone checked into this? African natives by skin, eye and hair color, are obviously VERY well adapted (translation: very highly evolved) to sunny, warm climates. Where are the signs of the truly ancient African civilizations? All destroyed by the invaders or their own usual mutual interactions?

Some assumptions are being made:
Evolution is true.
Global Warming is true.
Linear Time Frame.

In Contrast, Hindhu literature seems to speaks about
Devolution.
Global Cooling.
Circular Time Frame.

The basis of Bhestern Universalism is the idea of linear progression of human beings.

johneeG wrote:
why we try to fit Puranic stories in linear time framework?. Aren't Puranic characters eternal and "Annadi", existing in human psyche (Chitta)?.
+1, Sushupti ji.

I think frequently people mix the western linear time concept and Indian circular time concept. And create new interpretations. The best thing is to keep the 2 things separate.

We shouldn't try to fit Vedas and Puranas into the linear time frame(or linear human development) model of West. It just doesn't fit. The same applies vice versa also.

The modern science(influenced by christian west) has a model. According to it, the human civilization started as barbaric(nude, living under the trees and hand to mouth). Then, from there, it slowly developed into a civilization. The epitome of this civilization is represented by the western countries. The human civilization will continue to develop in this manner, led by the west, until by some incident the human civilization becomes extinct. This is a linear time frame model and linear development model.

The ancient India had a diametrically opposite model. According to it, the first human beings were exceptionally civilized and perfect. As the time passed, the civilization eroded due to the spiritual degradation. This degradation will continue until it reaches a low point, when the whole system will be reset. It is a cyclical model. According this model, ancient India represents the epitome of the civilization.

As we can see, both the models just do not agree with each other. So, there is no point in trying to fit the narrative of one model into another. Because it gives rise to weird interpretations.

The choice is simply to accept the model or reject it.

Link

johneeG wrote: The idea is that the human beings started out from a primitive origin and are getting better and better. So, by this idea, the people of today are better than the people of yesterday. The kingdoms and empires of today are better than the kingdoms and empires of yesterday.

There is an interesting evolution to this idea. It seems that this idea is actually based on Malsi.

Mo claimed that he is better than all the previous prophets. He is a more advanced version and that his views become superior to the views and rules of all the previous prophets. Malsi claimed superiority on this basis.

X-ists were told that they were inferior because their prophet or godson had come too early. Mo was superior to their prophet and godson because Mo was more latest. So, the idea that the latest is best was first created by the Malsi.

This idea seems to be copied by the Bhest when it was grappling Malsi. Many Malsic ideas seem to have been copied and incorporated by the Bhest during this time.

These ideas were used by a section of society to counter the power of the church which had become too powerful. During crusades, it seems that some sections had become rich and powerful due to loot. This loot was used to finance(loans) the royalty to prop them up against the church. Renaissance may also have been funded by this group. Many ideas gained from Malsi were used during renaissance. Nudity was used in Renaissance. Malsi itself had learnt many of its ideas from Cheen, Bhaarath and Greece.

The science in bhest was developed when it spread from Malsi. Malsi learnt its science from Cheen, Bhaarath and Greece. So, Bhestern science adopted the ideas from Malsi into itself. This force was against X-ism. So, Bhestern science adopted the idea that the 'latest is best'.

In 1800s, it seems there was a curious phenomenon. The church was defeated. So, X-ism was co-opted into this system. Now, the X-ism and science would act as two opposing forces, but their elite supporters are same.

It was and is accepted that the human beings are the best. So, it was postulated that human beings are better because they are latest(in evolution). This is simply a corollary of the idea that 'latest is best'. If latest is best, then the best must be latest. Since, human beings are better than other animals, they must be the latest in evolution.

Another twist was that the Oirope managed to create a colonial model by inspiration from jihadhi model. Once, they managed to set up their own empires, they had more interest in claiming that their empires were better than the previous empires. Infact, they claimed that since they are the latest, this represents the heights of human existence. They claimed that they achieved something that no one has ever achieved.

Then, this same narrative is continued by Amirkhan and commies. Both claim that they are the best because they are the latest. Since, the latest is greatest, they are the best and greatest. All this is based on Malsi's ideas that the latest is best.

The idea of Santhana Dharma is that the oldest is best. Till Malsi, everyone believed that oldest is best. Everyone was claiming themselves to be the oldest. When you couldn't claim oldest, then you had to find some other way of establishing your credentials.

Now, generally one believes that arts, science and religion develops without caring for politics. But this seems to be a completely baseless idea. Infact, it seems that politics is at the very heart of the development of science, arts and religion. Politics selectively supports or suppresses the ideas and narratives based on whether it is convenient to them or inconvenient to them.

The the science that developed during colonial times was convenient to the powers of colonial times. It incorporated and supported the narratives that the colonials wanted to push.

Similarly, today's science incorporates and supports the narratives that the powerful of today's world want to push. The funding for research, popularizing a research, rewards and awards, ...etc are all controlled by the rich and powerful. The scientists are dependent on them for all these facilities. Basically, science is not rational or independent entity with its own mind. Science like religion or arts is controlled by the rich and powerful directly or indirectly.

Bhestern Universalim uses the science as its corner stone to push for its pet agendas.
X-ism and Malsi are presented as other competing ideologies. However, these two seem to be part of the same set-up.

Questioning the Bhestern science of today can be as jolting to most people as question X-ism would have been during the times of renaissance for the people of Oirope.

Link

----

Confessions of a ‘Greenpeace Dropout’ to the U.S. Senate on climate change
Posted on February 26, 2014 by Anthony Watts

Update: I’m making this a top “sticky post” for a couple of days, new stories will appear below this one.

UPDATE: 2/27 3PM PST Dr. Moore leaves a comment, see below.

Our friend Dr. Patrick Moore, co-founder of Greenpeace, went before the U.S. Senate yesterday to tell his story as it relates to global warming/climate change. It is well worth your time to read. WUWT readers may recall that since Dr. Moore has decided to speak out against global warming and for Golden Rice, Greenpeace is trying to disappear his status with the organization, much like people were disappeared in Soviet Russia.

Statement of Patrick Moore, Ph.D. Before the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, Subcommittee on Oversight

February 25, 2014

“Natural Resource Adaptation: Protecting ecosystems and economies”

Chairman Whitehouse, Ranking Member Inhofe, and members of the Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify at today’s hearing.

In 1971, as a PhD student in ecology I joined an activist group in a church basement in Vancouver Canada and sailed on a small boat across the Pacific to protest US Hydrogen bomb testing in Alaska. We became Greenpeace.

After 15 years in the top committee I had to leave as Greenpeace took a sharp turn to the political left, and began to adopt policies that I could not accept from my scientific perspective. Climate change was not an issue when I abandoned Greenpeace, but it certainly is now.

There is no scientific proof that human emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) are the dominant cause of the minor warming of the Earth’s atmosphere over the past 100 years. If there were such a proof it would be written down for all to see. No actual proof, as it is understood in science, exists.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) states: “It is extremely likely that human influence has been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.” (My emphasis)

“Extremely likely” is not a scientific term but rather a judgment, as in a court of law. The IPCC defines “extremely likely” as a “95-100% probability”. But upon further examination it is clear that these numbers are not the result of any mathematical calculation or statistical analysis. They have been “invented” as a construct within the IPCC report to express “expert judgment”, as determined by the IPCC contributors.

These judgments are based, almost entirely, on the results of sophisticated computer models designed to predict the future of global climate. As noted by many observers, including Dr. Freeman Dyson of the Princeton Institute for Advanced Studies, a computer model is not a crystal ball. We may think it sophisticated, but we cannot predict the future with a computer model any more than we can make predictions with crystal balls, throwing bones, or by appealing to the Gods.

Perhaps the simplest way to expose the fallacy of “extreme certainty” is to look at the historical record. With the historical record, we do have some degree of certainty compared to predictions of the future. When modern life evolved over 500 million years ago, CO2 was more than 10 times higher than today, yet life flourished at this time. Then an Ice Age occurred 450 million years ago when CO2 was 10 times higher than today. There is some correlation, but little evidence, to support a direct causal relationship between CO2 and global temperature through the millennia. The fact that we had both higher temperatures and an ice age at a time when CO2 emissions were 10 times higher than they are today fundamentally contradicts the certainty that human-caused CO2 emissions are the main cause of global warming.

Today we remain locked in what is essentially still the Pleistocene Ice Age, with an average global temperature of 14.5°C. This compares with a low of about 12°C during the periods of maximum glaciation in this Ice Age to an average of 22°C during the Greenhouse Ages, which occurred over longer time periods prior to the most recent Ice Age. During the Greenhouse Ages, there was no ice on either pole and all the land was tropical and sub-tropical, from pole to pole. As recently as 5 million years ago the Canadian Arctic islands were completely forested. Today, we live in an unusually cold period in the history of life on earth and there is no reason to believe that a warmer climate would be anything but beneficial for humans and the majority of other species. There is ample reason to believe that a sharp cooling of the climate would bring disastrous results for human civilization.

Moving closer to the present day, it is instructive to study the record of average global temperature during the past 130 years. The IPCC states that humans are the dominant cause of warming “since the mid-20th century”, which is 1950. From 1910 to 1940 there was an increase in global average temperature of 0.5°C over that 30-year period. Then there was a 30-year “pause” until 1970. This was followed by an increase of 0.57°C during the 30-year period from 1970 to 2000. Since then there has been no increase, perhaps a slight decrease, in average global temperature. This in itself tends to negate the validity of the computer models, as CO2 emissions have continued to accelerate during this time.

The increase in temperature between 1910-1940 was virtually identical to the increase between 1970-2000. Yet the IPCC does not attribute the increase from 1910- 1940 to “human influence.” They are clear in their belief that human emissions impact only the increase “since the mid-20th century”. Why does the IPCC believe that a virtually identical increase in temperature after 1950 is caused mainly by “human influence”, when it has no explanation for the nearly identical increase from 1910- 1940?

It is important to recognize, in the face of dire predictions about a 2°C rise in global average temperature, that humans are a tropical species. We evolved at the equator in a climate where freezing weather did not exist. The only reasons we can survive these cold climates are fire, clothing, and housing. It could be said that frost and ice are the enemies of life, except for those relatively few species that have evolved to adapt to freezing temperatures during this Pleistocene Ice Age. It is “extremely likely” that a warmer temperature than today’s would be far better than a cooler one.

I realize that my comments are contrary to much of the speculation about our climate that is bandied about today. However, I am confident that history will bear me out, both in terms of the futility of relying on computer models to predict the future, and the fact that warmer temperatures are better than colder temperatures for most species.

If we wish to preserve natural biodiversity, wildlife, and human well being, we should simultaneously plan for both warming and cooling, recognizing that cooling would be the most damaging of the two trends. We do not know whether the present pause in temperature will remain for some time, or whether it will go up or down at some time in the near future. What we do know with “extreme certainty” is that the climate is always changing, between pauses, and that we are not capable, with our limited knowledge, of predicting which way it will go next.

Thank you for the opportunity to present my views on this important subject.

Attached please find the chapter on climate change from my book, “Confessions of a Greenpeace Dropout: The Making of a Sensible Environmentalist”. I would request it be made part of the record.

=================================================================

For that chapter, please see the PDF of his testimony, here: 22514HearingWitnessTestimonyMoore

=================================================================

UPDATE: 2/27 3PM PST Dr. Moore adds this comment:

Patrick Moore (@EcoSenseNow)

Submitted on 2014/02/27 at 2:53 pm

Nice to see so many positive and informative comments. It does pain me to see my Wikipedia entry cited. It was largely written by my enemies and it is very difficult to change as the editors don’t like people to write their own biographies. I trust Wiki only for non-political entries, Boron, for example.

For a factual account of the founding of Greenpeace see: http://www.beattystreetpublishing.com/w ... enpeace-2/

I have placed my testimony and the three supporting graphs/tables in Dropbox. They can be accessed here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s65ljwrbuetrrny/PadEn_XjT7

OK Climate Warriors, I’t’s time for serious discussion to separate Fact from Opinion, Fact from Inference, and Fact from Prediction. One would hope the average Grade 9 mind could make the distinctions.

If you wish to read my full text on climate it is the last chapter of my book “Confessions of a Greenpeace Dropout” available on amazon.com as ebook or print here: http://goo.gl/E4M5op

Link

johneeG wrote:
RamaY wrote:
1/ Global Warming > Carbon Credits > CO2 emissions etc >> +ve

Global warming claims are a hoax

By Ted Stomma

Special to The HeraldFebruary 28, 2014

James Werrell must have not checked John Kerry’s claims for his recent column on climate change. Secretary of State Kerry does have a tendency for exaggeration. I recall his stories about his three Purple Hearts and a visit to Cambodia.

Developing nations are not emitting half of the world’s greenhouse gases. Greenhouse gases are, in order of their greenhouse effect, water vapor, methane and carbon dioxide. Of these, carbon dioxide, as this is what governments try to control, produces 5 percent of the total greenhouse effect. People contribute only 3 percent of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, while the remainder is from natural sources. Therefore, the human portion of greenhouse gases is 0.0015 percent, which is not very significant and hardly a half.

Carbon dioxide hysteria is useful to governments, which can then impose a carbon tax, and to investors, like Al Gore, who plan to deal in carbon credits. Scientists, too, can get easy grants to study global warming, while there are no grants to research the contrary.

As one biologist put it, if he wants to get a grant to study a particular animal, it will be probably denied. However, if he phrases the grant request as studying the effect of global warming on the fur of this animal, it would probably be approved.

This leads to scientists who depend on the support of global warming theory for their money and, if data does not confirm it, a little fudging might be needed, as was exposed at the University of Anglia.

In science, the debate is never closed and there are always new theories and causes to be found. In our daily lives, we have heard of many products, such as eggs, that were bad for you, which now are considered good for you.

The same scientists predicting a global warming catastrophe today predicted global cooling and a new ice age in the 1970s. Climate predictions are based on computer models, in which the extent a variable affects the result is an educated guess. Therefore, by varying multipliers, you can get any desired result. The most often claimed consequence of global warming is that the oceans will rise by one inch in 100 years, and not 3 feet by the end of the century, as Mr. Kerry and Mr. Werrell state.

Werrell also states that the eight hottest years occurred within the past decade. According to NASA, average global temperatures rose at the end of the 20th century, but they have not changed during this century. Hurricanes and tornadoes, by actual count, also occur less frequently. Global warming theory predicts wet weather where we now have a drought.

We know that the earth was much colder at one time and we had glaciers covering much of the U.S. There were not enough people to increase greenhouse gases, yet the earth warmed to the extent that Vikings were able to farm in Greenland.

Then we were in a period called the Little Ice Age. People were dying of plagues and starving due to diminished food crops.

We started warming again in the 19th century, which brought on prosperity and unprecedented human inventions, which we enjoy today. So, a warmer climate is most likely desirable. It will allow for us to grow more food and feed the increasing population. Warmer oceans will contain less carbonic acid and will be good for the fish as well.

Ted Stomma is a resident of Tega Cay.
Link

Global warming seems like a hoax and is designed to put a leash on developing world.

Link

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Aug 2014 02:07

shiv wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Anantha: here is the link to that paper by Metspalu. It has been discussed in this thread before. An important paper

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9711004885
Also 2-3 papers that came out after this one including one by Thangaraj and another by Priya Moorjani. Which is the "Cell" paper?

Shiv: the Cell paper is the same as the one I quoted above. Just a different website linking to the same paper.

I am aware of Priya Moorjani paper that we discussed (regarding possible explanation of when "caste freeze" might have happened). Which is the other Thangaraj paper(s) after the Metspalu one?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Aug 2014 02:14

Ulan Ji: why "sedentary civilizations" evolved in certain regions (fertile crescent, India, China) & not in others is very difficult to answer, though people keep trying. Another thing to note is that, though spoken languages evolved in multiple locations independently, writing originated only in 3 or 4 places independently. The rest of the civilizations copied

Its also difficult to stay objective yet politically correct when postulating theories. Guns, Germs & Steel is one such attempt - it talks about factors like East-West orientation of Eurasia, geographical/climactic conditions etc (does not attribute any civilizational differences to race/genes)

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Aug 2014 02:49

The Talageri-Hock war, where Hock seems to have shed his "amiable personality" garb and become a frothing-at-the-mouth AIT proponent, resorting to the Witzelian approach of character assassination when logic/evidence fails

Nice read. Fairly recent (March of 2014)

http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/201 ... -talageri/

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Aug 2014 03:13

johneeG wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:I have a serious question:
The ancient India had a diametrically opposite model. According to it, the first human beings were exceptionally civilized and perfect. As the time passed, the civilization eroded due to the spiritual degradation. This degradation will continue until it reaches a low point, when the whole system will be reset. It is a cyclical model. According this model, ancient India represents the epitome of the civilization.As we can see, both the models just do not agree with each other. So, there is no point in trying to fit the narrative of one model into another. Because it gives rise to weird interpretations.

This matches perfectly with modern Microsfot Window Model.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 06 Aug 2014 05:16

Absolutely. These days I refuse all the offers from MS to "update" their %$&^*(. Now every time I switch on the laptop I have to spend several seconds closing all the automatically appearing "Office" thingies.

But I take issue with the whole idea that those first perfect, Dharmic beings were HYOOMANS. This is where SD differs hugely from the later superstitions that sprang up in various parts of the world, esp. Hamas/AlQaedastan. SD does NOT say that the perfect beings were human, they could have intelligence, feeling, and communicate very well without being humans.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2014 06:01

Prem Kumar wrote:
I am aware of Priya Moorjani paper that we discussed (regarding possible explanation of when "caste freeze" might have happened). Which is the other Thangaraj paper(s) after the Metspalu one?

http://www.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/nov2012/911.pdf

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2014 06:21

Prem Kumar wrote:Ulan Ji: why "sedentary civilizations" evolved in certain regions (fertile crescent, India, China) & not in others is very difficult to answer, though people keep trying. Another thing to note is that, though spoken languages evolved in multiple locations independently, writing originated only in 3 or 4 places independently. The rest of the civilizations copied

Its also difficult to stay objective yet politically correct when postulating theories. Guns, Germs & Steel is one such attempt - it talks about factors like East-West orientation of Eurasia, geographical/climactic conditions etc (does not attribute any civilizational differences to race/genes)

Prem - when faced with questions that seem to have no answer - I am reminded of the fact that I once moved my pillow from the north end of my bed and placed it on what was previously the foot end and went to bed. The next morning I woke up to find that a massive earthquake had killed 10,000 people in Latur. I promptly replaced my pillow to its original position and there have been no further earthquakes there. There is a clear cause-effect confusion here that creates a connection that cannot be explained.

The same genetics papers that you and I have been talking about speak of a depopulation and repopulation of Europe because of an "ice age" and its receding. There are some parts of the world that have been continuously warm and fertile for at least 10,000 years and these certainly include India and possibly the "fertile crescent"

These area have probably only seen a net migration towards them rather than a continuous flux. Settled populations are by definition sedentary and it is no surprise that the so called fertile crescent shows some of the earliest evidence of Agriculture. Baluchistan has evidence of agriculture from 9000 years ago. That was part of Northwest India until fairly recently.

I think settled populations have always come under attack from hunter gatherers. Religions that organized the hunter gatherers living in regions where the climate is hostile for half the year provided the moral basis for wiping out sedentary populations. Just my theory...

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 06 Aug 2014 10:28

Prem Kumar wrote:The Talageri-Hock war, where Hock seems to have shed his "amiable personality" garb and become a frothing-at-the-mouth AIT proponent, resorting to the Witzelian approach of character assassination when logic/evidence fails

Nice read. Fairly recent (March of 2014)

http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/201 ... -talageri/

Thanks Prem ji.
This was posted before as well I think - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1619000

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 06 Aug 2014 22:05

A good read. The trivial sounding title doesn't do justice to the serious effort from the interviewee..

what-would-krishna-do-or-shiva-or-Vishnu

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Aug 2014 22:29

Virendra wrote: This was posted before as well I think - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1619000

Thanks Virendra. Talageri explains why its easy to have a pretense of "amiability" when your theory/ego/agenda isn't challenged in a fundamental way. But when there is a serious academic challenge to your Hock-and-Bull-crap, the fangs/beaks/horns come out.

The fact of the matter is that it is Hock who co-signed an Angana Chatterji letter to California State University to dis-invite Modi. And he dares accuse Talageri of being a Hindu nationalist!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2014 00:10

Prem Kumar wrote:The Talageri-Hock war, where Hock seems to have shed his "amiable personality" garb and become a frothing-at-the-mouth AIT proponent, resorting to the Witzelian approach of character assassination when logic/evidence fails

Nice read. Fairly recent (March of 2014)

http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/201 ... -talageri/

Very verbose(~20 pages) rebuttal when all he had to say was "Hock is a Quack!" and agenda driven as he has misquoted him.

And give the ref to Hock signing the Modi dis-invite issue to show his agenda.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 07 Aug 2014 02:54

Talageri might not know about the Modi dis-invite petition signed by Hock. If someone has his email address, one of us at BRF can send this info to him

Also, Hock has some reputation in linguistic circles and cannot be hand-waved. So Talageri is correct in factually rebutting him & calling out his lies. But yes, the rebuttal is repetitive & he should show a bit more polish in his language instead of using phrases like "incontrovertible proof". Once again, if we get Talageri's contact info, we can provide him some constructive feedback

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 07 Aug 2014 19:47

ramana wrote:Very verbose(~20 pages) rebuttal when all he had to say was "Hock is a Quack!" and agenda driven as he has misquoted him.
And give the ref to Hock signing the Modi dis-invite issue to show his agenda.

I guess it would hard for a verbose quack to call out another verbose quack. These guys are all quacks dishing out their fantasies and personal desires. They do not even grasp the basics of Veda let alone any 'scholarly' discussion of it. One cannot really distinguish between "good quacks" and "bad quacks".

Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack!

Ashok Sarraff · Post by **Ashok Sarraff** » 07 Aug 2014 20:25

^ Please, verbose has different meaning in different set-ups. In academia, a 20-30 page, single-spaced response to reviewer comments is merely adequate.

Anything below 20 pages is simply an abstract of the fuller response

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 07 Aug 2014 22:20

Prem Kumar wrote:Once again, if we get Talageri's contact info, we can provide him some constructive feedback

Actually Kazanas did try to do just that.
Can't say it went very well.

The mail chain is on internet.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 08 Aug 2014 06:33

Crown found off Harappan site in UP

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 08 Aug 2014 06:53

shiv wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Anantha: here is the link to that paper by Metspalu. It has been discussed in this thread before. An important paper

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9711004885
Also 2-3 papers that came out after this one including one by Thangaraj and another by Priya Moorjani. Which is the "Cell" paper?

My apologies. The cell paper is the same 2011 Kevulsid article. Marvin posted a link and summary in Twitter last week, I thought a new paper had come out. As I understand nothing new in the last 2-3 months

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 08 Aug 2014 23:14

It seems one of the most important connections is: Yavana == Ionians.

Ionians are supposed to be the ancestors of the Greeks.

Yonas were supposed to be the descendents of Yavanas. Yavanas had a kingdom in the north-west of Bhaarath.

By connecting the Yavanas with Ionians, the colonials came up with the theory that Greeks settled in North-west of Bhaarath. This is very important theory and is the basis for many later theories.

So, who came up with the connection that Yavanas are Ionians? When and how was this connection made?

Remember, Yavanas, Greeks and Horses are connected. And then, this is used in AIT theory. So, this is a very important point.

According to Mahabhaaratha, Yavanas are the descendents of Thurvasu. Thurvasu was one of the sons of Yayathi. The story of Yayathi is pretty popular. Yayathi had several sons. He acquired old age and wanted to become young again. He wanted one of his son to loan him the youth. None of his sons were ready to do so. So, he excommunicated all those sons. Only one son named Puru was ready to loan the youth to Yayathi. So, Puru was made the successor by Yayathi. Other sons like Yadhu, Thurvasu, Anu, and Dhrahyu were excommunicated. Puru established his kingdom in Hasthinapura. His descendents were called Puaravas. Later, Kuru was born in this Paurava dynasty and it came to be called as Kauravas.

Other sons of the Yayathi went and established their own kingdoms on the outskirts. Descendents of Yadhu became Yaadhavas who were chiefly into cattlegrazing and dairy business. Descendents of Thurvasu became Yavanas. Descendents of Anu became Mlechchas. Descendents of Dhrahyu became Bhojas. This story is according to Mahabhaaratha.

According to Valmiki Raamayana, Yavanas, Shaakas and Pahlavas were created at the time of war between Vishwamithra and Vashishta. Vishwamithra was king ruling Magadha. He wanted to forcefully seize the cow of Vashishta. The cow was magical, therefore Vishwamithra wanted it. The magical cow created an army which defeated Vishwamithra. This army consisted of Yavanas, Shaakas and Pahlavas.

These stories seem to convey that Yavanas and Mlechchas were a semi-tribal society. Yavanas lived to the north-west of Bhaarath.

But, who made the connection of Yavana == Greek? And why is it assumed that the Greeks were good with horses?

Central Asia was always the best place for horses. Mahabhaaratha also mentions that the best horses seem to come from Kaambhoja, Shaaka, Gaandhara, ...etc. Basically, Central Asia is the best place to procure horses. This was true through out history. Then, what is the basis for assumption that Greeks were good with horses. This assumption is one of the basis for assuming that the Yavanas are greeks.

The connections being made are Yavanas are greeks, Yavanas had horses, so greeks had horses. Rest of the Bhaarathiyas were surprised to see horses. And greeks were venerated.

Greeks establishing their kingdom from greece to north-west of Bhaarath seems highly unlikely to me. There was Egypt, Persia, Central-Asian hordes, ...etc So, connecting Yavana to Ionian makes the claim that the Greeks managed to defeat Egypt, Persia, subdue Central-Asian hordes and establish kingdom right in the north-west of the Bhaarath. This seems to be related to the story of Alexander.

Most of the Bhaarathiya history seems to be anchored around the sheet anchor story of Alexander's victories. People seem to start with the assumption that the story of Alexander must be true even though that story is most extra-ordinary. Then, they try to fit all other theories to the story of Alexander.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 Aug 2014 01:30

According to Shri Talageri's Out of India theory from his book Rigveda and Avesta: The final evidence

As per our theory, the original homeland of the Indo-European family of languages was
in India, and all the above twelve dialects were spoken by different groups of people who
were referred to in Indian tradition as people belonging to the above three tribal
conglomerates: the Druhyus (Hittite, Tocharian, Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic),
the Anus (Greek, Albanian, Armenian, Iranian) and the Pūrus (Indo-Aryan).

According to him, Greek language evolved from the Anus tribe. I am reading bits & pieces of his book.

Book in PDF form http://ancientvoice.wdfiles.com/local-- ... vestha.pdf

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 09 Aug 2014 01:40

>>Greek language evolved from the Anus tribe.

Good luck convincing the Greeks, especially after appropriate translation...

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 Aug 2014 01:44

Talageri embraces PIE & uses a "PIE from India" OIT model. This removes objections from linguists who like to burn down the other OIT model ("Vedic Sanskrit is the mother language & there is no PIE")

He extensively uses the new PIE tree structure that was proposed by Gamkrelidze, which I am pasting below. But in a clever twist, even though he uses the Gamkrelidze language dispersion model, he does not use the Gamkrelidze migration model (which had PIE originating somewhere in the Caucasus)

So, imagine the following language spread hypothesis but with an Out of India migration.

Koenraad Elst also wrote a lengthy blog post explaining why the Gamkrelidze linguistic model fits well with an OIT theory. The bottomline is that even the last slender thread of AIT (i.e. Linguistics) has snapped.