Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 07 Jul 2014 18:29

rohitvats wrote:
nileshjr wrote:Just got to know about this news:

http://archive.mid-day.com/news/2010/ja ... emoted.htm

I was wondering, what's the deal here?? Can anybody tell me?? I dunno if its discussed here previously, I tried to search on BRF but couldn't locate anything.
Unless there is clarity on the subject from IA's side, there is no point even discussing this. We don't know what happened and why it happened. The development is simply being used as sensational news item by a Tabloid news-paper.

Is a double demotion a routine thing in IA? If the reports are true IA didn't respond so no doubt it was sensationalized by the media. All organs of the government need to learn media management. A simple reason on why this was done would have sufficed. Or maybe they don't want to insult the PVC awardee and point out the real reasons, if there are one.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 07 Jul 2014 18:33

That Saurav Jha article offers much food for thought. I wonder why the IA is not pushing for private sector participation in the production of the INSAS system of rifles if it feels that there are production issues with OFB?

The whole thing just smacks of import-if-import-option-is-available to me. No long term goal of helping OFB or DRDO (if IA feels that this is a design issue) make it better. And the funny thing is that they want OFB (again!) to make the new imported rifles under license. So now they have no issues with OFB!

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 08 Jul 2014 01:37

Courtesy and Tradition demands that anyone regardless of rank salutes a PVC Action recipient first. Only then, the later returns your salute. It is an homage to the medal and the fact that most are awarded posthumously. For the same reason, PVC awardees also cannot present guard as they are deemed above it.

A British Army Cavalry unit (Royal Scots Dragoon Guards) are excused to stand when the British National Anthem is played.

Reason: Their loyalty was above and beyond question in service to the crown, as they had proved on the battlefield time and again!!

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 09 Jul 2014 07:28

45 Days on, still no full time defense minister???

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 09 Jul 2014 11:01

muraliravi wrote:45 Days on, still no full time defense minister???

Sir,I think it will happen only after the budget is presented. I expect Finance and Defence were kept clubbed for a purpose.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 09 Jul 2014 11:23

merlin wrote:That Saurav Jha article offers much food for thought. I wonder why the IA is not pushing for private sector participation in the production of the INSAS system of rifles if it feels that there are production issues with OFB?

The whole thing just smacks of import-if-import-option-is-available to me. No long term goal of helping OFB or DRDO (if IA feels that this is a design issue) make it better. And the funny thing is that they want OFB (again!) to make the new imported rifles under license. So now they have no issues with OFB!

OFBs are generally build to print units, without design capabilities or responsibilities..

Theoretically, the functioning of such organisations are transparent and eminently traceable and this is also practically true to a very large extent as seen during third party audits.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 09 Jul 2014 14:29

Then OFB issues are pure production issues that can be solved by either

1. Improving OFB by better training, equipment and "motivation" and lamppost for those against it
2. Giving design to Indian private production agency. If this agency is a big gun then can also suggest design improvements particularly improvements in design for better manufacturability

Just going foreign for such relatively simple things just screams "I-can-buy-foreign-so-I-will"

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 09 Jul 2014 19:55

hmm the Saurav jha article has interesting info which makes one suspect its source and the intentions of the source

a direct gas infringement

I know what he means but this tells me copy paste from something supplied.

even more suspect - the info on SIG - which is wrong

The power of the arms lobby at work

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 10 Jul 2014 08:46

merlin wrote:That Saurav Jha article offers much food for thought. I wonder why the IA is not pushing for private sector participation in the production of the INSAS system of rifles if it feels that there are production issues with OFB?

The whole thing just smacks of import-if-import-option-is-available to me. No long term goal of helping OFB or DRDO (if IA feels that this is a design issue) make it better. And the funny thing is that they want OFB (again!) to make the new imported rifles under license. So now they have no issues with OFB!

I believe they tried some time back and the OFB guys threatened to go on strike in the other divisions as well. Here's a link about it.

Some select quotes by the worthies from that article:

Ordnance factory staff fear job insecurity

TRICHY: Employees of the Ordnance Factory Tiruchirappalli (OFT) on Wednesday staged a demonstration against the ministry of defence for deciding to stop procuring small rifles from OFT and three other government rifle factories. The move, according to employees, would give the impression that their jobs were not secure.

As many as 1,600 OFT technical staff owing allegiance to various employees unions demanded that the ministry allow OFT, Ordnance Factory in Nalanda, Small Arms Factory in Kanpur and Rifle Factory in Ishapore to go on with manufacturing of rifles with state-of-the-art features for supply to the Indian Army instead of importing such arms from foreign countries and allowing private companies to manufacture arms in India.

"...By stopping the manufacture of small rifles, our staff could suffer financial loss as they will not get overtime duty and other benefits," he added.
...
"If they do not consider our demand, we will go on strike," said Chandrasekaran.

Gotta love it that they're demanding overtime pay as well! And this was for an order to manufacture 19,000 rifles among 4 factories in one year. Why they need overtime for this order needs some explaining as well.

The trouble is that IA is dependent on OFB for a lot of other stuff besides firearms, so they can't afford to have the whole lot going on strike.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 10 Jul 2014 09:52

ArmenT wrote: Gotta love it that they're demanding overtime pay as well! And this was for an order to manufacture 19,000 rifles among 4 factories in one year. Why they need overtime for this order needs some explaining as well.

The trouble is that IA is dependent on OFB for a lot of other stuff besides firearms, so they can't afford to have the whole lot going on strike.

Yes that overtime pay demand is outrageous. I wonder if there is very low automation making every rifle virtually hand assembled. That increase work tremendously you know

Yes, whole lot going on strike at the same time will be a problem. No easy solution there which is why we should have avoided getting stuck in such a situation in the first place.

However I still feel that importing stuff at the drop of a hat is not the answer. Perhaps the answer lies in a series of nuclear tests at regular intervals for a year long campaign of tests.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 10 Jul 2014 10:06

Surya, Jha is arguing for indigenous solution in his article. So why would import lobby sponsor him?

member_27164 · Post by **member_27164** » 10 Jul 2014 14:44

Budget highlight for defense:
- 49%FDI
- One rank one pension

mahan · Post by **mahan** » 11 Jul 2014 23:53

http://members.tripod.com/soumitra_das/ ... sites.html

THIS IS MY OLD COLLECTION OF INDIAN WEBSITES UNDER DIFFERENT ID ABIJIT

LOST MY ID AND PASSWORD

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 12 Jul 2014 00:01

alexis

putting a few lines for indigenous arms is all fine (knowing that's not happening)

but the strange dragging in of the "gas infringement" and saying SIG was absent. SIG was present except the whole drama with Abhishek Verma

and SIG has since (2011) got a short-stroke push rod system making it extremely rugged and dependable.

IMO something fishy in either the source or the intention of information in the article

Ramesh · Post by **Ramesh** » 27 Jul 2014 11:25

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/defen ... 140726.htm

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 30 Jul 2014 00:00

Is it Worth Discussing Military Intellectualism ? DefStrat
- Lt Gen(Retd) Syed Ata Hasnain, PVSM, UYSM, AVSM, SM, VSM*

The scenario in India is best reflected by a couple of examples taken from both sides of the fence. I am impressed by the passion of the Army officer cadre’s new generation, its patriotism and ability to get things done in the field; the frontline leadership provided to troops in the Rashtriya Rifles, Assam Rifles and regular units doing service in insurgency areas, Siachen’s dizzy heights and extreme temperatures, UN operations and even in disaster management. Nothing has changed in this sphere and in fact it has improved by leaps and bounds. Yet, across the board the Army’s capability to think out of the box, have informed discussions, rebut unfair critique, create a niche in professional soldiering including doctrinal adaptations and innovations, handle media and carry out military diplomacy as per the need of the day, remains unquestionably questionable. Cynical it may seem it never was high even before, in ‘our time’. Feeble efforts at ‘Officer Days’ marked the training of officers while they received excessive upgradation in professional skills in long drawn out courses of instruction. The last 20 years has seen such a marked reduction in officer availability due to shortages in the cadre that even this skill upgradation is now under dilution to ensure greater officer availability in units. ‘Officer Days’ are now passé because you may have just one officer passing on his brief research to two others. The concept of study leave was introduced so that officers could educate themselves in civil institutions without being saddled with responsibility of their jobs. Admittedly, this has contributed almost nothing to the intellectual capital.Not many will deny that it is now a management tool for Military Secretary’s branch or just a welfare measure. The culture of reading, reviewing books and discussions has obviously been adversely affected by the officer shortage. While lower levels of awareness and knowledge may not affect day to day functioning in units the overall character of the officer cadre and its reputation does take a beating. The degree of confidence with which officers approach functionaries from other Services, government departments, the media and many other institutions where they rub shoulders with other ‘human resources’ is definitely of a lower order. The membership of strategic think tanks in Delhi finds few takers among exiting middle level officers; even contributing senior officers are far and few. The archaic rules of security for which many functional alternatives can be found prevent officers from being interactive on social media. The new instrument of knowledge exploited by even the not so intellectual communities is giving the Indian Army a pass because of the fear that its officers could become security risks. A simple illustration of this; the last two articles on Officer Deficiency in the Indian Army in this magazine hardly evoked a response from the ranks of the officer cadre but when posted on Facebook received such encouraging remarks, ideas and thoughts from people outside the uniformed domain and the retired community that it would be worthwhile for the Adjutant General to take a look at them. Idea generation is an intellectual activity but ‘ideating’ is an aspect still alien to the Army.

The original article that sparked this - An Officer Corps That Can’t Score - William S. Lind. Both are worth reading in full.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Jul 2014 16:06

BAE Systems wins IAF ammunition contract

The Indian Air Force (IAF) acquired 1.41 million rounds of 5.56 mm L15 NATO ammunition from BAE Systems for USD744, 400 in late June for the Israeli Tavor-21 assault rifles used by its Garud special forces.

Industry sources told IHS Jane's that BAE Systems was competing against Israel Weapon Industries, Italy's Fiocchi Munizious, Spain's Expal, and US firm BEL Trading & Consulting for the 5.56 mm ammunition tender.

Official sources said additional 5.56 mm ammunition orders are expected from the Indian Army special forces and the Indian Navy's Marine Commandos, both of which operate Tavor-21 rifles.

India's Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) produces 5.56 mm SS-109 rounds at its Jabalpur unit in central India and even exported small quantities to Israel and Thailand in 2008-09, but domestic production declined drastically soon after.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 30 Jul 2014 16:29

^^ is the OFB ammo different from NATO TAR-21 ammo. I assume since the OFB ammo was exported it was of decent quality.. Why the lack of domestic orders then?

Also if AF/N is ordering the Ammo what about for the Army TARs??? if we are going to import them nonetheless doesnt it make sense to order in larger quantities?

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 30 Jul 2014 16:32

Austin wrote:BAE Systems wins IAF ammunition contract
The Indian Air Force (IAF) acquired 1.41 million rounds of 5.56 mm L15 NATO ammunition from BAE Systems for USD744, 400 in late June for the Israeli Tavor-21 assault rifles used by its Garud special forces.

Industry sources told IHS Jane's that BAE Systems was competing against Israel Weapon Industries, Italy's Fiocchi Munizious, Spain's Expal, and US firm BEL Trading & Consulting for the 5.56 mm ammunition tender.

Official sources said additional 5.56 mm ammunition orders are expected from the Indian Army special forces and the Indian Navy's Marine Commandos, both of which operate Tavor-21 rifles.

India's Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) produces 5.56 mm SS-109 rounds at its Jabalpur unit in central India and even exported small quantities to Israel and Thailand in 2008-09, but domestic production declined drastically soon after.

Why can't this low technology item be farmed out to private sector for production? Either it is OFB or imports -- no other option is ever considered.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 30 Jul 2014 22:06

@SanjayC - It's really import only. OFB is just a showpiece boxing bag!

Seriously - smell how 'British' are adept at corrupting Indians. It's a skill they perfected for 500 years. Proof - They can't still get rid of the raj from their daily talk/banter.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 31 Jul 2014 05:26

[quote="Austin"]BAE Systems wins IAF ammunition contract

Jaitley has already started privatization, so the OFB will have to start performing better.

http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/index.php?wh=A-E-P-C&lang=en

I do notice however that the OFB makes 5.56 ammo. Exactly what is the justification for imports? QC issues can be sorted out. Even the mighty OFB unions can't protect the employees from being fired for incompetence now.
The best solution is to have an open tendering process, and an explanation for why imports. This is a low tech item that anybody can literally make at home. The army's excuses don't stand up.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jul 2014 06:36

Rien, OFB 5.56mm can be used on INSAS only while INSAS can use NATO 5.56mm.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 31 Jul 2014 08:26

SanjayC wrote: Why can't this low technology item be farmed out to private sector for production? Either it is OFB or imports -- no other option is ever considered.

That's because there is no other option. Blame India's laws for that one. No private manufacturer in India is allowed to make arms or ammunition in the same calibers that are used by the military (prohibited bores laws), therefore they can't manufacture 5.56x45 mm. ammo by law. Plus, there are all sorts of manufacturing license requirements and restrictions that only serve to ensure that OFB has a monopoly in this sector.

(NOTE: second hand info given to me once by someone a while back, things may have changed now)

chilarai · Post by **chilarai** » 31 Jul 2014 13:05

Indian jawan's beheading: Army has given befitting reply to Pakistan, says Gen Bikram Singh

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 31 Jul 2014 17:52

chilarai wrote:Indian jawan's beheading: Army has given befitting reply to Pakistan, says Gen Bikram Singh

Must have sent dossiers.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 31 Jul 2014 19:14

So Gen BS gives way to Gen DSS.....

Now, Modi knows abt reality from many sources, and has surely heard abt Sukhna Land scam, the UPA's "Line of Succession" , weak response on LoC and falling morale in IA, as well as misgivings by VKS. He has removed even UPA Governors from their posts, yet approved the IA Chief designate......why?

I have personal misgivings abt Gen DSS, and confidence not high due to UPA connection. Armed forces are one of the few systems in the country which work well, and the choice of COAS should not be controversial and tainted like it is for Gen DSS.

Modi is taking a risk by appointing Gen DSS, and i hope the risk pays off.

member_27164 · Post by **member_27164** » 31 Jul 2014 19:58

pure speculation: Assuming gen suhag is congressi, i suppose some settlement might have been done between modi and suhag. modi might have given some sort of warning or something. he might have said "since i am not going to stop your promotion do what i say. else i will fire you and make sure you will not get retirement benefits". seems possible for person like modi.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Jul 2014 20:35

Gentlemen, the GOI has affirmed it's faith in General Dalbir Singh.

So, please drop these speculative discussions and associated flights of fancy! Unless there are data points which can be used in a meaningful way either way with respect to General Dalbir Singh, I seriously suggest we cease such discussions. Please mind it.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 31 Jul 2014 21:05

aditya_dange wrote:pure speculation: Assuming gen suhag is congressi, i suppose some settlement might have been done between modi and suhag. modi might have given some sort of warning or something. he might have said "since i am not going to stop your promotion do what i say. else i will fire you and make sure you will not get retirement benefits". seems possible for person like modi.

Its only a person like Modiji.. who can do the right thing. Indeed he has done the right thing.

The signal give by Modiji is... he is all for Indian Armed Forces and will not indulge in Congress kind of politics... and will not harm deserveable candidates just because of political compulsions. (modiji has just busted the congress game... i think congress only cleared him because they were convinced BJP would nullify the decision.. but Modoji is way ahead of alll)

Suhagji look fitter than a YO... His credentials are impeccable... he deserves to be COAS

Imagine if a CO runs a BPT in excellent then how does the regt run...
now
Imagine if a COAS runs a BPT in excellent then how does the Army run...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 Jul 2014 21:47

dinesh_kumar wrote:So Gen BS gives way to Gen DSS.....

Now, Modi knows abt reality from many sources, and has surely heard abt Sukhna Land scam, the UPA's "Line of Succession" , weak response on LoC and falling morale in IA, as well as misgivings by VKS. He has removed even UPA Governors from their posts, yet approved the IA Chief designate......why?

I have personal misgivings abt Gen DSS, and confidence not high due to UPA connection. Armed forces are one of the few systems in the country which work well, and the choice of COAS should not be controversial and tainted like it is for Gen DSS.

Modi is taking a risk by appointing Gen DSS, and i hope the risk pays off.

Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag is New COAS. Congrates to Him. That is all that counts. He will do his duty.No need to discuss further. Period.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 31 Jul 2014 22:29

Congrats to Gen. Dalbir Singh Suhag. Great to have a fit soldier who rose through from humble background (without family connections, etc). Per most accounts he is a no-nonsense go getter and can even take measures that are murkier from a gentleman's perspective. Best person to deal with Paki perfidity.

All the rumour mongering about the new COAS is in bad taste without any proof. RAW and Modi would have done their due diligence and decided to stick with the General. Absolutely no need to cast aspersions. COAS should get our full support and respect that the position and person deserve.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 01 Aug 2014 04:02

chilarai wrote:Indian jawan's beheading: Army has given befitting reply to Pakistan, says Gen Bikram Singh

“We have responded to Pakistan at a tactical level to prevent the recurrence of such incidents in future,” Gen Singh said

Taken at face value (and there's no reason not to), we have done 10X to the pigs. Leave it at that.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 01 Aug 2014 06:35

The chief’s challenge: Lt Gen Syed Ata Hasnain

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 01 Aug 2014 09:31

Taken at face value (and there's no reason not to), we have done 10X to the pigs. Leave it at that.

If we went around beheading Paki soldiers than the shames on us and nothing to be proud of. if we sent in covert teams to destroy their bunkers and assassinate the CO that ordered his men to behead ours (the CO and the men who did it were heros in pakistan and all over the news) then Good for us.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 01 Aug 2014 10:45

^^
I will put it in a different way... For whatever was done, if it helps in boosting morale of our troops including "in their viewpoint" that Hemraj's beheading was avenged and it ensures that the enemy doesnt dare repeat it, then all is fair...

member_28539 · Post by **member_28539** » 01 Aug 2014 11:10

If we went around beheading Paki soldiers than the shames on us and nothing to be proud of. if we sent in covert teams to destroy their bunkers and assassinate the CO that ordered his men to behead ours (the CO and the men who did it were heros in pakistan and all over the news) then Good for us.

If any one has read Maj. Gaurav Arya's blog posted earlier in this thread it will be realised that what impact a jawan's death has on a whole for that unit...beheading I can't just imagine the rage involved there...

It is no longer a issue of a person' death it's about the very confidence of the men...

wig · Post by **wig** » 01 Aug 2014 11:45

Flutter in J&K defence circles -regarding - Outgoing Army chief General Bikram Singh’s comments on Lance Naik Hemraj Singh, who was beheaded by Pakistan’s Border Action Team (BAT) on January 8 last year in Poonch sector,

Defence sources, who felt that the outgoing Army chief perhaps did so to bolster his post-retirement prospects, say, “why at the first place he kept quiet for so long to divulge Army’s retaliation to this particular incident on the LoC and why he divulged it today on the day of demitting office.”

“Had the outgoing Army chief divulged it soon after retaliatory action, it would have also given some kind of consolation to Dharamwati— martyred soldier’s wife,” they said.

On the fateful day, Lance Naiks Hemraj and Sudhakar Singh were brutally killed, their bodies mutilated and former’s head was taken away by Pakistan’s BAT after it breached the LoC and intruded 450 metres inside the Indian Territory in the Balnoi area.

Soon after the incident, family members of Hemraj, including his wife Dharamwati, back home in Mathura had went on a hunger strike demanding that the head of her husband be brought back.

The family had called off their six-day-old fast only after a visit by UP Chief Minister Akhilesh Yadav and assurances by Gen Bikram Singh that steps would be taken to get back the severed head. “The outgoing Army chief should have avoided making comments on this issue on the day of his retirement. We all know that Special Forces are meant for carrying out such tactical operations and the Army keeps them under the wraps for obvious reasons,” said the sources.

If the comments were so unavoidable then they should have been made soon after the Army avenged the brutal killings of its troopers, they added. His comment to the queries on Hemraj was unwarranted, they said.

In New Delhi today when asked if India had given a befitting reply after the January 8 beheading incident, the outgoing Army chief reportedly said: “It has been done. Please understand that when we use force, that use is from tactical to operational to strategic levels. When I mention that during that incident, it was aimed at operations at the tactical level, which have been undertaken. I think this has been done by the local commander, the chiefs have nothing to do with it”.

Soon after the incident, Gen Bikram Singh had said during a press conference that the Army would retaliate at a time and place of its choosing. He had given the statement six days after the incident.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140801/nation.htm#13

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 01 Aug 2014 12:37

^ There was no Cross border Raid into Pakistan in 2014, as per Google. I do not think Gen BS is implying that exchange of fire on LoC can be considered as a response for Lance Naik Hemraj Singh's beheading.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Aug 2014 12:38

As per google ???

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 01 Aug 2014 12:53

^ Well.....yes. As per google.