Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 30 Jul 2014 22:30

abhik wrote: All that depends on the implementation of the rules. In any case I don't expect the Russians to give a damn about ethics.

so as per you only U.S/ NATO have ethics ?

kit · Post by **kit** » 30 Jul 2014 22:31

Israel runs the biggest and most successful espionage operation in the US which is spread all along the industrial military and financial sectors not to mention the political establishment ! (the second most successful is the french ! ) The Russians (USSR) had their biggest operations in its allied country India, in so much that the KGB literally was running a free hand inside India though Indira Gandhi tried to curtail it to some extent !

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 30 Jul 2014 22:35

Cosmo_R wrote: The US FMS is the model. Any 'facilitating payments' are a violation of the FCPA

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/

Govt to government deals where there are such protections in place.

LOL

remember VIP Chopper deal ... how NATO country US Ally is making mockery of protection clause in a Deal?

we INDIANS dont even know how to safeguard our own contracts .... only US FMS is the guiding light where they can sell us 1960 upgraded tech and we go gagagagaga RAGARAGA over it ? still we cannot use what we bought for BN$$$$$ without their permission ... its acceptable because ?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 30 Jul 2014 22:38

kit wrote:Israel runs the biggest and most successful espionage operation in the US which is spread all along the industrial military and financial sectors not to mention the political establishment ! (the second most successful is the french ! ) The Russians (USSR) had their biggest operations in its allied country India, in so much that the KGB literally was running a free hand inside India though Indira Gandhi tried to curtail it to some extent !

well where is the evidence?

I believe its the opposite. It was US that was running a free hand inside India though Indira Gandhi tried to curtail it to some extent !

have you heard of C.O.N.G.R.E.S.S-G.R.A.S.S the bio weed that our farmers are dealing with a present from our beloved US.

BIO warfare

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 30 Jul 2014 22:48

d_berwal wrote:this is called propaganda.. western intelligences at its best under UPA... kill your own self to help your masters.

no one to deny, no one to accept... no one knows the pic is real or fake... put doubt in people mind when you know there will be no counter... as its an intelligence game being played.

you think RAW/ IB/ ?? did not know every step and every moment of the alleged important person in foreign land ? If yes, changing RU to US or Anyone does not matter and should not matter.

I believe this report was there to sabotage the deal or to delay it and they succeeded in delay.... partially.... because it gave UPA a chance to delay the decision.

and the said link you post is from a uk sight ... we need to believe what uk puts up in a news website... because they want to help US and save us from?

The Indian Navy conducted an investigation and Commodore Sahib was dismissed from service. Pliss to see:
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 34112.html

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 30 Jul 2014 22:51

negi wrote:When it comes to the desi arms business the Russians when compared to the competition are 1 generation ahead i.e. they are well entrenched in the system (I know quite a few in middleman business , not long ago it used to be a lucrative career option after retiring from services) they don't deal directly but influence the deal through the layers of players which exist in the ecosystem today. Just like in the Enterprise SW space a big SW co might not always sell it's product directly but might get a foot in the door via a partner (joint sales or even an implementation vendor) the Russians too come in via wheeler dealers who during the day time work as some XYZ ltd. providing spares and nut and bolt kind of stuff for the military platforms (read Russian weapons as even as we speak at least 60-70& of backbone platforms across services are of Ru origin). The margins in this space are huge and that is why lot of retired high ranking aphsars are in this business.

sirji.. lets compare retired high ranking aphsars in this business:

Number of retired high ranking aphsars joining with US/ NATO ally companies vs Russian companies

ratio may be 50:1

The weapon trials are by and large a hogwash just like most of the government run tests the winner has already been decided and RFP's tailored for the prospective suitor . When pitashri was still serving he told me without even flinching a muscle that if military deals were to be investigated like their civillain counterparts then all of them would fall under 2G or coal gate type buckets. In a system where processes are archaic and on top of that opaque it is virtually impossible to keep a deal clean.

sirji no offense my pitashri told me RFP is only in a non Govt - Govt deal... to tailor the deal for US / NATO ally sector .....

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 30 Jul 2014 22:54

SanjayC wrote:
The Indian Navy conducted an investigation and Commodore Sahib was dismissed from service. Pliss to see:
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 34112.html

sirji pls google shareholding/ ownership patter of indiatoday and decide why they put anti-india stufff regularly... who is controlling and who is dictating terms...

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Jul 2014 22:57

d_berwal wrote:
abhik wrote: All that depends on the implementation of the rules. In any case I don't expect the Russians to give a damn about ethics.
so as per you only U.S/ NATO have ethics ?

Where Exactly did I say that?

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 30 Jul 2014 23:01

d_berwal wrote:
SanjayC wrote:
The Indian Navy conducted an investigation and Commodore Sahib was dismissed from service. Pliss to see:
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 34112.html
sirji pls google shareholding patter of indiatoday and decide why they put anti-india stufff regularly... who is controlling and who is dictating terms...

The news was reported in all news media in the country. The fact that is hard to miss is this: The Navy Board of Inquiry found the officer guilty of sexual misconduct on foreign shores and dismissed him. It was a honey trap of Russians.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 30 Jul 2014 23:04

abhik wrote:
Where Exactly did I say that?

my miss-understanding so what did you mean, who gives a damn about ethics then? (in the context)

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 30 Jul 2014 23:06

SanjayC wrote:
abhik wrote:Is it so hard to believe that Russian state agencies may bribe/ honey trap etc Indian decision makers (Generals, Politicos, Babus) to get a favourable decision?
Here you go:

Indian Navy chief caught in Russian 'honeytrap'

An Indian Navy chief caught in a Russian "honeytrap" may have helped inflate the cost of an aircraft carrier deal by up to £1 billion to stop explicit photographs taken during the negotiations being released.

Commodore Sukhjunder Singh...

Congratulations. In spite of the idiot nature of this tabloid headline, you have done as good a job of denigrating the Indian services as the ISI could have wished.

Which idiot believes that a figgin COMMODORE will sway the Naval HQ and MoD?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 30 Jul 2014 23:10

SanjayC wrote: The news was reported in all news media in the country.

same news media who for 10+ years said modiji was a xxxxxxx and quoted US govt. on it

The fact that is hard to miss is this: The Navy Board of Inquiry found the officer guilty of sexual misconduct on foreign shores and dismissed him. It was a honey trap of Russians.

navy COI did its job ... in forces it only black or white... no grey.

sexual misconduct on any shore is up for dismissal in any arms... but there was no sabotage or espionage or anti-india case

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 30 Jul 2014 23:20

Arun Menon wrote:
Victor wrote:what exactly do you have against accountability and privatization?
... Everyone and his mother knows that accountability and privatization will be a slow and gradual process.

Why? It is possible to make them accountable and privatized tomorrow without any trouble. In fact, most of the employees would welcome it.

This is insufferable. This cannot be accepted anymore.

Then don't.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Jul 2014 23:33

d_berwal wrote:
abhik wrote: Hardly. The lower costs of russian wares is more because of their lower quality.
quality is a very subjective term.

please give us an example in terms of a weapon system we bought

The Su-30 engine which has only a fraction of service life of the Airframe due to which they have to be replaced periodically. Thats just an example of technical inferiority, over the years many instances of Russian weapons being defective/not working as advertised have come to the fore via advertized, eg Smerch, R-77, T-90 and others.

Is it so hard to believe that Russian state agencies may bribe/ honey trap etc Indian decision makers (Generals, Politicos, Babus) to get a favourable decision?
you think US does not do it? or our intelligence cannot figure out the US honey trap ?

if you believe honey trapping generals then babus then politicos in one deal is possible then how are you sure these same people will do any good for INDIA, so all need to be changed right?

I just gave the example of bribes and Honey traps as one of the underhand ways to swing decisions.

...
if our generals n babus n politicos are such low level people what will change if RU changes to US or Changes to Private sector..... I believe Pvt Sector is most corrupt, because of being private sector... no rules.. no ethics ... no policies ... private sector by nature is only for profit by hook or crook

I don't get how the private sector came to this discussion.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 30 Jul 2014 23:49

abhik wrote: The Su-30 engine which has only a fraction of service life of the Airframe due to which they have to be replaced periodically. Thats just an example of technical inferiority, over the years many instances of Russian weapons being defective/not working as advertised have come to the fore via advertized, eg Smerch, R-77, T-90 and others.

what is the US/ NATO ally alternative to SU 30 engine (same class of engine)

if they have then we can do a comparison and come to a qualitative output of engine life vs airframe life vs money vs restrictions to use vs etc.

same for Smerch

what is the US/ NATO ally alternative to Smerch (same class of MRLS)
if they have then we can do a comparison and come to a qualitative output of range vs money vs mobility vs availability vs restrictions to use vs etc.

same for R77

what is the US/ NATO ally alternative to R77 (same class of Missile)
if they have then we can do a comparison and come to a qualitative output of range vs money vs availability vs success ratio vs weight vs vs restrictions to use vs etc.

how so ever media projects R-series no F-serious pilot want to be near it in combat.

military equipment and its advertisement is better left to US / NATO Ally.... RU is way behind in this art.

I just gave the example of bribes and Honey traps as one of the underhand ways to swing decisions.

example should be relevant not generalized... bribing does not exist in RU case... no example as of yet compared to US/ NATO Ally's in indian context for weapon system purchase

how is honey trap = money ... i dont get it.

I don't get how the private sector came to this discussion.

if you dont get lets leave it then... no harm .... right?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 31 Jul 2014 00:20

d_berwal wrote:
SanjayC wrote:An Indian Navy chief caught in a Russian "honeytrap" may have helped inflate the cost of an aircraft carrier deal by up to £1 billion to stop explicit photographs taken during the negotiations being released.
this is called propaganda.. western intelligences at its best under UPA... kill your own self to help your masters.

no one to deny, no one to accept... no one knows the pic is real or fake... put doubt in people mind when you know there will be no counter... as its an intelligence game being played.

you think RAW/ IB/ ?? did not know every step and every moment of the alleged important person in foreign land ? If yes, changing RU to US or Anyone does not matter and should not matter.

I believe this report was there to sabotage the deal or to delay it and they succeeded in delay.... partially.... because it gave UPA a chance to delay the decision.

and the said link you post is from a uk sight ... we need to believe what uk puts up in a news website... because they want to help US and save us from?

just a thought ... had the above controversy not broken off we would have had the carrier atleat 1+year earlier by all the conservative estimates... what would have changed strategically if we got the carrier in 2012-13 ? what would have been the difference today?

who is to gain and who is to loose ?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 31 Jul 2014 05:21

d_berwal wrote:
abhik wrote: The Su-30 engine which has only a fraction of service life of the Airframe due to which they have to be replaced periodically.
what is the US/ NATO ally alternative to SU 30 engine (same class of engine)

F-15E has airframe life of 16000 hours

While older models used to have half of that.

I do remember reading that prat & whitney engines for F-15E had some ridiculously high number 9000 to 10000 hours.

The russians can't match such things against French OR US platforms M2K always had high availability compared to super-manuevering Mig-29s but Mig-29s were very down in availability. That is why IAF wanted 126 M2Ks for MRCA inspite of supergymnast Rambhas and Baaz available.

Same for Scorpenes which have high availability of 340 days per year which russians can't match. Don't think Kilos can ever match that.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 31 Jul 2014 05:44

Dhananjay wrote: F-15E has airframe life of 16000 hours
While older models used to have half of that.

I do remember reading that prat & whitney engines for F-15E had some ridiculously high number 9000 to 10000 hours.

The russians can't match such things against French OR US platforms M2K always had high availability compared to super-manuevering Mig-29s but Mig-29s were very down in availability. That is why IAF wanted 126 M2Ks for MRCA inspite of supergymnast Rambhas and Baaz available.

Same for Scorpenes which have high availability of 340 days per year which russians can't match. Don't think Kilos can ever match that.

USAF's engines are not measured in hours but in TAC's (Cycles)..The 229 on the Strike Eagles would be good for 8000 Cycles which is not the same as hours. The 229 EPE engine takes the overhaul times to 10 years (Compared to 7 years with the older non EPE engine). With the EPE the periodic engine inspections need to happen just once over the life of the engine (@ 6000 cycles compared to 4000 cycles with the older non EPE engines).

Here is a detailed explanation on TAC's by someone whom I regard as one of the most knowledge propulsion poster on US engines on the net..

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11822

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 31 Jul 2014 06:29

Victor wrote:Why? It is possible to make them accountable and privatized tomorrow without any trouble. In fact, most of the employees would welcome it.

This is insufferable. This cannot be accepted anymore.
Then don't.

Then why don't you go and do it genius, if it so easy.

And for your information, not suffering nonsense from you is part of not accepting it anymore.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 31 Jul 2014 07:10

d_berwal wrote: who killed ARJUN... ??? thats a news item!!!

ARJUN Mk1 is in service
ARJUN Mk 2 order is already placed
ARJUN Mk 3 will come after Mk2

If this is called killing 'ARJUN'

Junking the so called tincans will be like - " leaving a rented home before the home you bought is even ready to stay. so where does one stay - footpath"

They order a crappy product like the tincan after farcical trials and then wait forever to make them usable in our conditions, which it still is not, all the while sabotaging the Arjun tank.

dont accept it no one is forcing you, its a democracy not autocracy.

Sabotaging ARJUN is a LIE spread by media and vested interest groups

farcical trails - were you part of those trials ? do you have evidence to prove your point?

Are you pretending to be ignorant or are you really ignorant? Because there is no cure for people pretending to be blind.

ARJUN Mk1 is in service. Oh hurray, now i can go home happy, but wait let me check the numbers. What, just 124, is this what you call being in SERVICE in such a big armored force like the IA has?

ARJUN Mk 2 order is already placed. Hurray, another piddly 124 ordered.

ARJUN Mk 3 will come after Mk2. Wow, now this must be great, because they have such a great history of ordering thousands from the previous models

So, while the total number of tincans ordered is 2011 (wikipedia), lets see how many Arjun tanks were ordered, a token 248. All this while the Arjun is BETTER than the tincan. (link, because I just know you are gonna question that http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 022_1.html). Mind you the last order was placed for the tincan in 2013.

If this is called killing 'ARJUN'. This is how you kill the POTENTIAL something truly great.

Junking the so called tincans will be like - " leaving a rented home before the home you bought is even ready to stay. so where does one stay - footpath" Who said the home we BUILT is not ready to stay, didn't you just say that it was in "service.

dont accept it no one is forcing you, its a democracy not autocracy. Yep, I am not accepting, why do you think I am bothering to respond to the likes of you

Sabotaging ARJUN is a LIE spread by media and vested interest groups. Ya sure, vested interests that want a superb indigenous product to succeed in REAL numbers. Wow, that is SUCH a bad vested interest group.

farcical trails - were you part of those trials ? do you have evidence to prove your point? Were you? Then how would you know? This is tank that does not work without air conditioning, yet it passed the trials by IA. In that case, what are the trials if not farcical?
Here is the link to an article about CAG complaining: http://www.janes.com/article/34562/gove ... g-failures

Of course, this is not gonna convince the likes of you, but still I cannot let you poison other minds with your lies.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 31 Jul 2014 10:03

@arun menon

You are missing the whole point about why IA did not place orders for more Arjuns and went for end of life tin cans (like Rafale is). Here is the list of plausible reasons, starting from plain crazy to absolutely whacked out. No import fetish or corruption issue to be raised otherwise loyalty will be questioned, or post will reported. My vain attempt at humor-

1. If IA bought Arjun's then Pakis will ask for Abrams. So Army decides to not get Arjuns to alter the balance. Never mind that US will worry that the first Abrams in Paki hands will be shipped to China - so they will never give Abrams to Pakis in a million years -cross this out

2. Arjun has imported engine and what not. Cannot be relied upon in a war. Wait at least it fires an Indian shell unlike Tincans- cross this out!

3. Arjun does not fit on a rail car. So now a logistics guru and Indian railways get to decide which is best of class war machine -cross this out

4. Army's bridge laying equipment cannot handle Arjun wt. To save on 100 odd bridge layers we ordered 2000 Tincans -does not make sense. cross this out

5. Arjun was built by thin lungi guys who are no match for macho Delhi fellas. But Tincans roll from same factory -cross this out also

6. Russians said buy Tincans or no more anything else. Possibly true but then why order 2000? 500 should make the bear happy.- cross this out

7. Army does not like air force, so they went for a flying tin can. It flies for 3 odd feet and Pakistan is like 300 km wide -cross this out

8. Every tin can came with a Natasha, just like Rafale will come with wine, cheese and French l*ss- this has got to be it !

Jokes apart - I cannot bring myself to do a cost comparison of Paki T80 and our Tincans. It will be embarrassing to write about this any further.

We now have to live with watching Tincans roll across rajpath every year - showing off to the world our great - pick your choice of word here!

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 31 Jul 2014 10:49

^The mental contortions these guys go through to justify the unjustifiable would put a boneless circus freak to shame.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 31 Jul 2014 12:33

Dhananjay wrote:
F-15E has airframe life of 16000 hours
While older models used to have half of that.

I do remember reading that prat & whitney engines for F-15E had some ridiculously high number 9000 to 10000 hours.

go buy F-15... as if they were selling it to US.

do a cost vs benefit analysis you might be shocked

The russians can't match such things against French OR US platforms M2K always had high availability compared to super-manuevering Mig-29s but Mig-29s were very down in availability. That is why IAF wanted 126 M2Ks for MRCA inspite of supergymnast Rambhas and Baaz available.

LOLL

do you know M2K when bought had no armament.. french gave only the machine .... armament to fight was given 5-7 years later at a very heavy price!!!

The idea to go for 120 M2K had nothing to do with availability
(availability going down had geo-political reasons, you put US/ NATO ally in same league geo-political scenario their planes might not even take-off. DO you remember how our navy choppers were unavailable for years and we had to cannibalize parts because because US/ NATO refused to give spare parts. RU has never refused to give parts)

Idea of ordering M2K was to shift M2K production to india and have a balanced russian and western fighter fleet.... had this happened we would have had the best AF only behind US and RU. BUT UPA wanted to make money and changed the whole deal and see where are we now!!!

Same for Scorpenes which have high availability of 340 days per year which russians can't match. Don't think Kilos can ever match that.

where are the Scorpenes.... not in my pocket...!!!

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 31 Jul 2014 13:05

Arun Menon wrote:
Are you pretending to be ignorant or are you really ignorant? Because there is no cure for people pretending to be blind.

ignorant = blind = me LOL

I am just trying to put my point of view, on the basis of available public information. May be you have some divyadrishti which common ignorant people like me are not privy to, thus we are called blind!!!

ARJUN Mk1 is in service. Oh hurray, now i can go home happy, but wait let me check the numbers. What, just 124, is this what you call being in SERVICE in such a big armored force like the IA has?

Yes 124 being in service is called being in SERVICE, if there is different definition of 'being in service' please put it in a dictionary.

ARJUN Mk 2 order is already placed. Hurray, another piddly 124 ordered.

piddly from whose point of view? without a finished product getting an confirmed order? wowwwww

ARJUN Mk 3 will come after Mk2. Wow, now this must be great, because they have such a great history of ordering thousands from the previous models

and the point is?

So, while the total number of tincans ordered is 2011 (wikipedia), lets see how many Arjun tanks were ordered, a token 248. All this while the Arjun is BETTER than the tincan. (link, because I just know you are gonna question that http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 022_1.html). Mind you the last order was placed for the tincan in 2013.

If this is called killing 'ARJUN'. This is how you kill the POTENTIAL something truly great.

the link you posted, please also check the authors credentials and biases and his history seesawing.

T-90 was ordered in 2001-02 with licence production rights... whats wrong in producing what you have paid for?
or you would like us to go the bofors way?

Junking the so called tincans will be like - " leaving a rented home before the home you bought is even ready to stay. so where does one stay - footpath" Who said the home we BUILT is not ready to stay, didn't you just say that it was in "service.

LOL thats the best you can do?[/quote]

dont accept it no one is forcing you, its a democracy not autocracy. Yep, I am not accepting, why do you think I am bothering to respond to the likes of you

Sabotaging ARJUN is a LIE spread by media and vested interest groups. Ya sure, vested interests that want a superb indigenous product to succeed in REAL numbers. Wow, that is SUCH a bad vested interest group.

no the lie is spread to delay ARJUN and Delay T-90 induction ... when such lies are put out the domino effect is on decision making... slowing down the whole process... putting doubt in peoples mind..... and we all have seen this.

farcical trails - were you part of those trials ? do you have evidence to prove your point? Were you? Then how would you know? This is tank that does not work without air conditioning, yet it passed the trials by IA. In that case, what are the trials if not farcical?
Here is the link to an article about CAG complaining: http://www.janes.com/article/34562/gove ... g-failures

LOL the link you provided is again propoganda

WHY because T-90 does not have a AC.... if AC is not there how did it fail?

Of course, this is not gonna convince the likes of you, but still I cannot let you poison other minds with your lies.

Truth and objective reasoning based on available public domain knowledge is poison for you

can you point out lie? or you are like kejriji ?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 31 Jul 2014 14:21

^Wow you take bias and prejudice to new heights. Now I am absolutely convinced that you have no interest in anything but being a fanboy of imported maal and defending it to nonsensical levels.

Arjun not a finished product, that takes the cake. And 124 not being piddly compared to 2011, that is another gem. If anyone writes something that doesn't agree with your delusions, it must be propaganda, that is another berwalism.

Either you are delusional or you are pretending to be blind to the truth.

As for you calling me Kejri, that is like Kejri himself calling me Kejri

I do not see any point in arguing with you anymore (frankly do not have the time for that).

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 31 Jul 2014 14:47

Arun Menon wrote:^Wow you take bias and prejudice to new heights. Now I am absolutely convinced that you have no interest in anything but being a fanboy of imported maal and defending it to nonsensical levels.

well its you sirji who is biased and going to new heights to prove your point.

and i am no fanboy of imported stuff... its just when some people deliberately put west vs east or import vs indian product only in selective cases and majority of time its Russian bias they have and they selectively and carefully go up to defame IA.... I use my democratic right to put my point of view

Arjun not a finished product, that takes the cake.

now seee how good you are .... please point out when did i say ARJUN Mk1 is not a finished product? so you remove mk1 part from ARJUN and try to showofff how i am anti ARJUN

And 124 not being piddly compared to 2011, that is another gem.

first 2011 figure is wrong.
second 124 is piddly for you not for others... numbers are a very subjective game... numbers can be used to support for-and-against both side of arguments.

If anyone writes something that doesn't agree with your delusions, it must be propaganda, that is another berwalism.

Either you are delusional or you are pretending to be blind to the truth.

what ever i may be but i am not some one who googles and put up links having fake and distorted news and when pointed out the fakness ... resorting to colorful language to prove a point... and calling others delusional/blind/ etc...

As for you calling me Kejri, that is like Kejri himself calling me Kejri

I do not see any point in arguing with you anymore (frankly do not have the time for that).

well all your arguments have been dismantlement and all links provided have been proved propaganda against IA prim-facie ... and your behavior and arguments remind of khujliwall... you are so biased against RU that you go to lengths to discredit and name calling any one who has a different point of view.

there is nothing to argue here... and i am glad you accepted that you were just arguing for the sake of it... i was just putting my point of view

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Jul 2014 15:38

nik wrote:@arun menon

You are missing the whole point about why IA did not place orders for more Arjuns and went for end of life tin cans (like Rafale is). Here is the list of plausible reasons, starting from plain crazy to absolutely whacked out. No import fetish or corruption issue to be raised otherwise loyalty will be questioned, or post will reported. My vain attempt at humor-

1. If IA bought Arjun's then Pakis will ask for Abrams. So Army decides to not get Arjuns to alter the balance. Never mind that US will worry that the first Abrams in Paki hands will be shipped to China - so they will never give Abrams to Pakis in a million years -cross this out

!

Sorry the logic does not apply, M109's, F-16's, Saab Ereeye, P-3 Orions, Harpoons are all way more sophisticated than Abrams but still sold. This argument does not hold any water. For soem reason US has never harmed China like India and Russia, almost as if US is cohots with China like Saudi Arabia

member_27164 · Post by **member_27164** » 31 Jul 2014 19:10

Arun Menon wrote: Arjun not a finished product, that takes the cake. And 124 not being piddly compared to 2011, that is another gem.

+1 (cake)
+ 2011 (gems)
Arun sahab, please accept the cake and gems (real gems not gems chocolates

) as gift from me. Liked your post.

d_berwal sahab, can you please provide any proof of delays in purchase/induction of t-90 for arjun?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 31 Jul 2014 19:21

d_berwal wrote:
abhik wrote: Hardly. The lower costs of russian wares is more because of their lower quality.
quality is a very subjective term.

please give us an example in terms of a weapon system we bought

MiG-29. 2/3rds of the F-16's cost but with only a quarter of its airframe life and much lower operational availability. If you want a more modern example, as has been mentioned on the thread, you can try comparing the AL-31 to the F100/110.

On the Tejas we went with the F404/414 instead of the RD-33 and we'll be replacing the R-73 with the Python 5. The Arjun employs French optronics, German powerpack & transmission, LAHAT etc but no Russian content was opted for despite (presumably) being cheaper. C-17 over Il-76. A330 over Il-78. AH-64 over Mi-28. Chinook over Mi-26T. US, Israeli & European accessories on most new warships (aside from the RBU-6000).

d_berwal wrote:Yes 124 being in service is called being in SERVICE, if there is different definition of 'being in service' please put it in a dictionary.

piddly from whose point of view? without a finished product getting an confirmed order? wowwwww

The Arjun production line capable of manufacturing 50 tanks per year is currently lying dormant. Clearly the MoD has given the IA more rope than was due.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 31 Jul 2014 19:58

Viv S wrote:
MiG-29. 2/3rds of the F-16's cost but with only a quarter of its airframe life and much lower operational availability. If you want a more modern example, as has been mentioned on the thread, you can try comparing the AL-31 to the F100/110.

vivji dont forget when mig was offered and inducted into IAF and when was F-16 offered to IAF (30 years almost)

what will we do buying US stuff when we cannot use it?

capability wise there is hardly any difference.

all of this with the availability of money to purchase and in numbers with the ability to use it as we want.

RU suffered because of breakdown... but they never back-stabbed up, always gave us latest of the times are the only nation to give INDIA strategic weapons.

RU of 1995 and RU of 2014 is totally different.... Putin uncle has pumped so much money into defense R&D that almost all projects are back on track.

On the Tejas we went with the F404/414 instead of the RD-33 and we'll be replacing the R-73 with the Python 5. The Arjun employs French optronics, German powerpack & transmission, LAHAT etc but no Russian content was opted for despite (presumably) being cheaper. C-17 over Il-76. A330 over Il-78. AH-64 over Mi-28. Chinook over Mi-26T. US, Israeli & European accessories on most new warships (aside from the RBU-6000).

US has no match for Mi-26 even they use it when needed.

well C-17/ A330 with all the gadgets still cant do what Il-78 (outdated version without comparable new gadgets) can do

AH-64 vs Mi-28 with all the gadgets still cant do what Mi-28 (outdated version without comparable new gadgets) can do (can AH-64 take direct hit of 23 mm and fly?

US/ NATO equipments main edge is its electronic equipment (TI/ LCDs/ Computers...)

In last 5 yrs RU has closed the gap even after loosing 20 yrs because of breakdown.

today no one is stopping us to put Israeli and french stuff in new equipment.

The Arjun production line capable of manufacturing 50 tanks per year is currently lying dormant. Clearly the MoD has given the IA more rope than was due.

well thats the disease production agencies had even T series production is running at 20-30% less than designed capacity (few years back it was running at 40% capacity)

well Arjun manufacturing is not total dormant... ARV's and BLT's n some other stufff is keeping it running at snails pace...

there is no corruption or scam in T-90 vs ARJUN in fact both are needed looking at our size.... most of it has to do with the way MoD planning (5 year plans) and we all know our defense procurement planning is the worst in world.

we if just look at the number on new regts in last 5 years and coming 5 yrs both ARJUN and T-90 production lines are insufficient

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 31 Jul 2014 21:19

just look at the number on new regts in last 5 years and coming 5 yrs

Berwalji- could you pls shed some light on this please? How many regts raised and how many planned?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 31 Jul 2014 21:36

Avik wrote:
just look at the number on new regts in last 5 years and coming 5 yrs
Berwalji- could you pls shed some light on this please? How many regts raised and how many planned?

looking at the data available in public domain i can shed some light:

- All Vij/T-55 regts converted to-T-90/Arjun/T-72UPG
- some T-72 regts converted to-T-90
- All new Regts on-T-90

Thats-all-publicly-shar-able-info-i-cant-shed-light-on

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 31 Jul 2014 21:40

^^^^^^^

thank you

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 31 Jul 2014 23:00

d_berwal wrote:vivji dont forget when mig was offered and inducted into IAF and when was F-16 offered to IAF (30 years almost)

That was in the context of Russian quality debate. Both aircraft were the 4th gen mainstay of their respective air forces. And F-16 offered far superior value compared to the MiG-29. Cost wasn't that much higher. Superb serviceability (comparable to the Mirage 2000). An airframe stressed for 8000 flight hours (2500 hours for the MiG-29) and an engine that lasted the life of the aircraft (our experience with the MiG-29's RD-33 was nothing short of terrible).

what will we do buying US stuff when we cannot use it?

We're buying it to use it. If you're referring to threat of sanctions, its been a decade and a half. The world's changed as has our place in it while the US' position as its sole superpower is coming to a close and China's is beginning. And in a conflict with China, which side do you think Russia will back and which will the US?

capability wise there is hardly any difference.

There is a significant difference which is why we've chosen to pay a greater upfront cost for American and European gear.

RU suffered because of breakdown... but they never back-stabbed up, always gave us latest of the times are the only nation to give INDIA strategic weapons.

We leaned towards the Soviets as a result of statist/socialist policies so the USSR backed us in 1971. It wasn't a favour, we were an element in the global power tussle between the superpowers. Of course when a choice was involved i.e. in 1962, the USSR adopted a neutral policy while the US came to our aid (again Cold War politics nothing more).

Ancient history anyway. Post-1991 on the other hand, the contribution of the Russians to the Chinese military modernization has been nothing short of invaluable. Indian sensibilities/threat perception didn't enter the equation. And India's cash helped keep its arms industry afloat. Point is, we don't owe them anything, or they us for that matter.

RU of 1995 and RU of 2014 is totally different.... Putin uncle has pumped so much money into defense R&D that almost all projects are back on track.

They may be back on track but they still have a long ways to go still. They lack the scale of the US defence industry (only the Chinese have the potential to match that), nor they have as robust a civilian sector to draw upon/form inter-linkages with, like the Europeans do.

US has no match for Mi-26 even they use it when needed.

Total lift capacity is only one statistic. Serviceability, operational availability, turnaround time, life-cycle costs etc is what swings the argument. The state of the IAF's Mi-26 fleet has been, lets say... of concern, and the rejection of the Mi-26T wasn't altogether surprising.

well C-17/ A330 with all the gadgets still cant do what Il-78 (outdated version without comparable new gadgets) can do

Aside from a glass cockpit (which is available on the Il-76 platform as well) gadgetry is not a significant part of the aircraft's performance (unlike a fighter jet). The C-17 can do everything the Il-76 can do and more. As for the MRTT role, the A330 is very much a superior design when compared to the Il-78.

There's a reason why Boeing and Airbus dominate the civilian market which the Russians despite long concerted efforts haven't been able to break into.

AH-64 vs Mi-28 with all the gadgets still cant do what Mi-28 (outdated version without comparable new gadgets) can do (can AH-64 take direct hit of 23 mm and fly?

What can the Mi-28 do that the AH-64 can't? Yes the Apache can most certain sustain 23 mm hits. Please don't get taken in by reputations (Russian equipment = low tech/rugged, US = high tech/fragile). The Apache is a very durable, very rugged battle-tested platform.

US/ NATO equipments main edge is its electronic equipment (TI/ LCDs/ Computers...)

In last 5 yrs RU has closed the gap even after loosing 20 yrs because of breakdown.

Technologically the US has an edge is nearly everything and a commanding lead in several fields. The only place where the Russians have anything approaching parity is ballistic missiles and long range SAM systems.

today no one is stopping us to put Israeli and french stuff in new equipment.

The fact that there was a pressing need for the integration of Israeli and French stuff, is illustrative.

well thats the disease production agencies had even T series production is running at 20-30% less than designed capacity (few years back it was running at 40% capacity)

The lack of production at Arjun's production line can hardly be blamed on the production agencies.

well Arjun manufacturing is not total dormant... ARV's and BLT's n some other stufff is keeping it running at snails pace...

Do you have a source for that? How many ARVs and BLTs orders could possible have been placed considered that they'll be supporting Mk1 fleet of only 120 units?

there is no corruption or scam in T-90 vs ARJUN in fact both are needed looking at our size.... most of it has to do with the way MoD planning (5 year plans) and we all know our defense procurement planning is the worst in world.

Number of tanks required has nothing to do with the number to types of tanks required. The US, UK, France, Russia, Israel, all manage with just one type of tank. And those with more than one type like Turkey & South Korea will all be eventually be standardizing around one type.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 01 Aug 2014 04:20

Here is the bottom line - After digesting 2000 T-90 tanks -10 billion $ , Indian army (or any other army for that sake) will not have appetite for another tank in large quantities.

And on tops of this, Russians have not delivered tech for domestic manufacture of shells. WHAT AN AWESOME FRIEND. How much more $$$ before they give us keys to start the tank ?

Imagine what an investment of 10 billion $ would do in multiple fronts. We are not smart with how we spend our money.

From Wiki on T-90 :

A INR100 billion (US$1.7 billion) purchase of 354 new T-90MS tanks for six tank regiments for the China border has been approved[22] which would take the total number of T-90 tanks in the Indian Army's inventory to 2011 and with a total of nearly 4500 tanks (T-90 and variants, T-72 and Arjun MBT) in active service, the world's third largest operator of tanks.

India plans to have 21 tank regiments of T-90s by 2020, with 45 combat tanks and 17 training and replacement tanks per regiment, for 62 total each.[23]

On 17 September 2013, India’s Defense Ministry approved the production of 235 T-90 tanks under Russian license for $1 billion.[24]

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 01 Aug 2014 22:44

nik wrote:Here is the bottom line - After digesting 2000 T-90 tanks -10 billion $ , Indian army (or any other army for that sake) will not have appetite for another tank in large quantities.

but on the contrary Indian Army is the only army for such an appetite..... Look at the history .. the whole T-90 vs ARJUN debate is because of such an appetie.

And on tops of this, Russians have not delivered tech for domestic manufacture of shells. WHAT AN AWESOME FRIEND. How much more $$$ before they give us keys to start the tank ?

do you have any proof that the contract for manufacturing Russian shells signed by Indian and Ru govt was not adhered to by our friends... or thats your view?

Imagine what an investment of 10 billion $ would do in multiple fronts. We are not smart with how we spend our money.

what will it do?

From Wiki on T-90 :

A INR100 billion (US$1.7 billion) purchase of 354 new T-90MS tanks for six tank regiments for the China border has been approved[22] which would take the total number of T-90 tanks in the Indian Army's inventory to 2011 and with a total of nearly 4500 tanks (T-90 and variants, T-72 and Arjun MBT) in active service, the world's third largest operator of tanks.

India plans to have 21 tank regiments of T-90s by 2020, with 45 combat tanks and 17 training and replacement tanks per regiment, for 62 total each.[23]

On 17 September 2013, India’s Defense Ministry approved the production of 235 T-90 tanks under Russian license for $1 billion.[24]

this is propaganda at best and wiki is not 100% truth not even 50%

T-90MS has not been bought by any county leave India apart. (thats proves ur a GOOGLE KING without facts)

4500 MBT in Indan ARMY as per your claim.
eventually 2011 will be T-90 as per your claim
124 Arjun Mk1 as of now public information

that means 2365 MBT of other make in Indian Army (eventually) (this PROVES your 1st point on appetite is a fig of Imagination and a) do YOU agree?

now this begs me to think:

- There is an ARMY with 4500 MBT (Indian Army)
- Out of with by 2020 (by your argument) only 2011+246 = 2256 will be other MBT

That Means by 2020 only 50% approx fleet of INDIA ARMY's MBT will be Modern (leaving aside T-90 is up for mid life upgrade as it is about to complete 15 Years in IA in 1-2 years)

Rest 50% of the fleet can even be called night blind or partial night blind or any other name.

Now you suggest and you favor(Most of A vs T) India to stop T-90 Production and Induction at Present Level. That is around 1000 - T-90

So as of NOW we will have 3256 MBT other that ARJUN and T-90

Lets order ARJUN 3265 MBT

@ 50 per year = Next 65 YEARS approx will take us to fill the gap ( And you thing in next 65 years India does not need modern MBT's its a very easy BET to Take right?)

@ 100 per year = Next 33 Years approx will take us to fill the gap ( And you thing in next 33 years India does not need modern MBT's it is a very easy BET to Take right?)

@ 200 per year = 17 Years approx will take us to fill the gap ( And you thing in next 17 years India does not need modern MBT's so its a very easy BET to Take right?)

PLEASE all of you RU haters and INDIANS let me know:
- Will US/NATO Ally help us to have 4000+ ARJUN's (HISTORY speaks... they will be $h1t scared of 1000 ARJUN's)

My 5censt (only mine)

There are big forces and players to make sure that India does not get superior to west (as east is passe)

SABOTAGING Indian Armed forces will help RU right or US/NATO Ally's?
Making sure IA has 50% outdated MBT will help INDIA or who?
STOPPING T-90 production Today helps who INIDA or ?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 01 Aug 2014 23:08

@ d_berwal - lots of blah blah blah GOOGLE KING blah blah - Kind of getting touchy about Russian Natashas huh?

If we can make XYZ T-90's per year to get to 2000 plus numbers, then same production rate can be achieved for Arjuns.

FYI - This is about making 'India' strong and not about our love/friendship with Russia. These are two separate things.

DOES RUSSIA NEEDS INDIA TO GIVE IT $$$ ARMS DEAL EVERY YEAR TO PROVE OUR FRIENDSHIP. If yes then time to dump them, if not then don't confuse it with ordering T-90s.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 01 Aug 2014 23:25

nik wrote:@ d_berwal - lots of blah blah blah GOOGLE KING blah blah - Kind of getting touchy about Russian Natashas huh?

who is getting touchy is all to see mate.

Facts and Truth is hard to digest?

PLEASE be my guest to compare Nastasha deals over last 60 years.... RU-Indian deals will not even figure... in tabloids..

If we can make XYZ T-90's per year to get to 2000 plus numbers, then same production rate can be achieved for Arjuns.

who is stopping it but not @ making IA 50% outdated...

give me some evidence for:

- US/NATO Ally - Letting us produce 2000+ ARJUN engine in TOT without sanctions (they are happy making money in 124 lots)
- US/NATO Ally - Letting us produce 2000+ ARJUN FCS in TOT without sanctions (they are happy making money in 124 lots)
- US/NATO Ally - Letting us produce 2000+ ARJUN Transmission in TOT without sanctions (they are happy making money in 124 lots)

FYI - This is about making 'India' strong and not about our love/friendship with Russia. These are two separate things.

but is it about U shouting to make 50% IA MBT fleet night blind for next 10-20-30 years by stopping T-90

DOES RUSSIA NEEDS INDIA TO GIVE IT $$$ ARMS DEAL EVERY YEAR TO PROVE OUR FRIENDSHIP. If yes then time to dump them, if not then don't confuse it with ordering T-90s.

who is confused in Producing T-90 ? Its only you DUDE!!! not me LEAVE alone IA

SO You want RU give us stuff for FREE?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 01 Aug 2014 23:57

^^^ I can refute every single comment but that is going to be good for your job security isn't it ?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 02 Aug 2014 00:26

nik wrote:^^^ I can refute every single comment but that is going to be good for your job security isn't it ?

i am not dependent on any one for my job security like you DUDE!!!

when people cant refute Truth they come with one liners ...

No one can refute TRUTH... they can just TRY and TRY and TRY... Till truth surfaces

(My view not directed at any one in person.... There is such a deliberate attempt by some people under ARJUN/ other disguise to hurt Indian Army and malign the Indian Army personnel's that its no more funny... its becoming sooo sooo evident in their behavior and argument and their tactics... My 2cents and how i seee)