Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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rohitvats
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rohitvats »

vic wrote:Can somebody indicate how many Dhruvs are flying and how many more are on order?
As per a 2012 Report, Indian Army has a sanctioned strength of 126 Dhruv helicopters and I think 60+ are already in service. In addition to that, IA also has sanctioned strength of 60 WSI Dhruv.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_23694 »

rohitvats wrote:I flew out of IGI Airport some days back. For some reason, the IAF side of the airport had 3 x C-17 a/c along with Hercules. May be for the ceremony associated with latest arrival or some sort of maintenance work going on in Hindon or I'm simply thinking too much...
I saw it on 26th May too (remember the date since it was the oath taking ceremony of the new government)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by SanjayC »

sankum wrote:This was Dhruv 9th crash leading to total write off and not the first in which the lives were lost. One army Dhruv with 4 lives lost, 2 IAF DHRUV with 9 lives lost and 1 BSF with 3 lives lost. 1 Ecuador with 3 live lost.

The crash rate of Dhruv is high with estimated 1 total loss per 15000 hours of flying but this is only the second were technical malfunction is suspected and the rest were human error or weather.
What cause was assigned to the second dhruv crash in Ecuador where three lives were lost?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by sankum »

According to news reports it was pilot error.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Viv S »

sankum wrote:According to news reports it was pilot error.
Do you have a link or source for that?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by sankum »

IA orders for Dhruv were initial 40. Then 105 were ordered(of 159 order of which 54 for IAF) of which 60 were Rudra WSI versions. In Dec 2012 DAC order for 45 Dhruv for Rs 3310 Cr and Dec 2013 order for 41 for 3000 Cr of which 40 were for IA and one for IN.

Don't know whether this orders were subset of 105 nos order or new orders.

Taking this as new orders total IA order is for 40+105+45+40=230 Dhruvs.

Dhruv for IA @20/yr around 90 nos may be present strength with 140nos more in next 7 years.

So much misinformation by lobbies in news paper reports. Cant trust or say with surety for cause of Ecuador crash.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by sankum »

IAF Dhruv order is for initial 22+54=76 of which 16 is WSI version.

IN is 8+16 recent order=24

CG is 4+16 recent order=20

TOTAL order is for IA 230+ IAF 76+ IN 24+ CG 20=350 Dhruvs.

Of which presently roughly estimated 150 are in defence service IA 90+ IAF 50 +IN 8+ CG 4.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

Thanks for the effort Sankum.

The Dhruv is one of the rare HAL successes & it has been a worthy one, due credit to them. The occasional crash is sad news, but it is what it is given our frequency of utilization.

One only wishes HAL shows the same focus with the LCA & the IJT.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rkhanna »

*deleted*

Apologies - the link i posted of the Pilot Error Crash was for the first crash in 2009..
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_23694 »

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 246150.cms

Defence Ministry inducts IAF Deputy Chief Air Marshal S B Sinha in HAL board
Meeting a long-pending demand of Indian Air Force, the government has inducted one of its senior officer in the board of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

The move to induct IAF Deputy Chief Air Marshal S B Sinha will help the force to have more say in the functioning of country's only aerospace firm and force's largest supplier, Defence Ministry officials told PTI here.

The IAF, which is the largest customer of HAL, had been demanding for a long time to have its representatives in the HAL Board of Directors headed by its Chairman R K Tyagi, they said.

The government is also going ahead with its plans to disinvest 10 per cent stakes from the aerospace PSU with order books worth over 1 lakh crore.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by sankum »

The HAL official said that the inquiry into the second Ecuadoran ALH crash is on, and that the preliminarily findings have hinted that it could be due to an error by the pilot.

Ill-fated IAF chopper was serviced a few days before crash
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Philip »

Where was I advocating the import of helos using the Dhruv crash? Some do have a vivid imagination! The point is that if we want to be a successful global exporter of defence eqpt. we must have the highest standards of build quality. Why are German luxury cars the most sought after in India if one can afford it? In our desire to maximise import substitution through indigenous efforts and products,we cannot employ shortcuts.The same yardsticks that we use to buy foreign wares must be employed for Indian wares.Please remember how many rookie pilots we lost thanks to HAL's failed basic trainer and why we had to import.

One is advocating using Russian eqpt. only where it suits us,both technologically and economically.No one is providing us with N-subs or N-sub tech.BMos has no global equivalent and the Su-30MKIs are the best aircraft in the IAF's inventory,the backbone of its capability along with the numbers of MIG-21 variants.So pl. don't bite the hand...

Coming back to Dhruv,a great overall success,but glitches if existing,have to be ironed out considering the large numbers that have been inducted and will be inducted for our armed forces.

Now wonder of wonders! Finmeccanica have been absolved of any wrongdoing in the Augusta-Westland scandal in Italy. So according to Italian courts,there was no bribing in the India VVIP helo deal. recently,"Bunga Bunga" Berlousconi was amazingly found not guilty in an Italian court of procuring underaged girls for his "pleasure". A well known madam who had provided him with girls reportedly said that she was surprised that he got off as it was a well known fact that Bunga Bunga boy Berlo paid handsomely for the bedroom favours of girls on the make. Italian courts! What effect this will have on the case in India where former air chief ACM Tyagi is one of the accused along with his relatives is another Q.Let's see how this plays out.

One development may be that the NH-90 may now be back on the list of ASW helos in the IN's contest.It was recently shelved again due to the AW alleged scandal as Finmeccanica was allegedly involved.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by sankum »

Some news reports by lobbies are shouting hoarse about drawbacks of Dhruv and importing 197 LUH.

With HAL luh coming up fast and 30 cheetals on anvil there is no dire necessity.

Present Chetak/Cheetah are still around and will be progressively replaced in next 10-15 years.

If case of dire emergency 40 to 60 Luh can be imported and allow HAL LUH to fructify.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by vic »

Thanks to posters for their answers.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Philip »

The LCH and LUH have the potential to be HAL's next successes after Dhruv.The LCH was rolled out some time ago. It is required in large number for the IA and IAF too.For the moment the IAF should as an interim measure import either of the two LUH contenders,as maintaining Chetaks is becoming problematic due to their age and are also accident prone.We will need by 2030 at least 300-400LUHs for both mil and civil use.There is a huge market and we can afford to use more than one type given the large numbers required.In Vietnam the "Huey" became he most indispensable helo asset and the LUH will have to perform much the same roles.Armed LUHs will also be ideal for counter-insurgency ops,for tackling Naxals/Maoists,etc.There should be a v. good export market for it too after the success and large scale induction of Dhruv in the armed forces.If the naval version performs well,it too will have export potential mainly due to the low cost.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by titash »

Philip wrote: Now wonder of wonders! Finmeccanica have been absolved of any wrongdoing in the Augusta-Westland scandal in Italy. So according to Italian courts,there was no bribing in the India VVIP helo deal. recently,"Bunga Bunga" Berlousconi was amazingly found not guilty in an Italian court of procuring underaged girls for his "pleasure". A well known madam who had provided him with girls reportedly said that she was surprised that he got off as it was a well known fact that Bunga Bunga boy Berlo paid handsomely for the bedroom favours of girls on the make. Italian courts! What effect this will have on the case in India where former air chief ACM Tyagi is one of the accused along with his relatives is another Q.Let's see how this plays out.
Completely OT, but I for one am extremely impressed with Berlo's "maneuvers". For all that talk about India being a corrupt nation, the Italians do take the cake when it comes to an exemplary display of western values such as "democracy", "open government", "freedom of the press", "eradicating corruption" etc. Must've mixed with the desi gene pool at some point in the past :lol:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_26622 »

Jokes apart - Importing LUH is kind of dumb, simply because the cost of an import 'Light' helicopter will be more or at par with 'medium' Dhruv. Lifetime servicing costs will make it 2 to 3x more expensive. So just buy more Dhruv's and enjoy a bigger ride until HAL comes around with desi LUH.

All this just shows how much the Import lobby is in control of media - less than 48 hours of a Dhruv crash, LUH proposal becomes hot topic.

We should explore sabotage angle given the huge $$$ deals or just explode a nuke to welcome sanctions.
Last edited by member_26622 on 30 Jul 2014 22:40, edited 1 time in total.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

Re: import lobbies, I was actually told sometime back, that the entire smear campaign run on DRDO etc by several "national papers", was, after the latter org started playing hardball on TOT & offsets in the new DPP and was forcing their inclusion. Many foreign arms cartels hated that.
The media is completely sold out for the most part. Whether it be coup by IA or stuff like the above, its par for the course.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_26622 »

@ Karan M - Coup by Army is impossible. Only way that can happen is if we force Army to swallow indigenous stuff (and close their $ cash flow).

Hard to get rid of an addiction honestly - it's like heroin, you have to die to get rid of it!

I am betting on the Maoists to show the way - just showing desperation here.
Last edited by Indranil on 31 Jul 2014 01:37, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Take your desperation elsewhere.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

Nik, i meant the media ran claims of coup by army etc for similar reasons. As they are completely sold out.
I dont think IA will stage a coup if imports are stopped - though I know you were being sardonic - but yes, agree its addiction and only policy at MOD/IA internal level (while meeting service needs) can address this over long term.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_22906 »

Nik... I have reported your post. You may disagree with lots of decisions that IA has taken, but for God's sake stop this nonsensical rant about addictions, coups and Maoist (even if you are showing desperation)

The men in Services deserve respect. These are the guys who are ready to lay their lives for the country so that people like you and me can live in peace
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by d_berwal »

nik wrote:@ Karan M - Coup by Army is impossible. Only way that can happen is if we force Army to swallow indigenous stuff (and close their $ cash flow).
it will never happen ... because $ cash flow is only outside of forces circle.... its only people like us .. you and me who can have a cash flow... people in forces cannot .... they have the mis-fortune not to be part of us.
Hard to get rid of an addiction honestly - it's like heroin, you have to die to get rid of it!
there is a cure for y_u, even if y_o are herion addict--shift to Yoga and BHANG both are none addictive and better in result and perception and for body :wink: :wink:
I am betting on the Maoists to show the way - just showing desperation here.
maoists are like western sponsored terrorism.. but behind a curtain.... to kill our heritage.... never even in desperation lose your thoughts and be anti-INDIA

we all know pak- terrorism thats is_l_m_c in nature
and we now see cris_ian terrorism in maoists......

better choose your words .....
Last edited by Indranil on 31 Jul 2014 01:40, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Why shouldn't I warn you for thread derailment?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Indranil »

MODERATOR TALK

Are you guys craving for warnings? I would be happy to hand them out.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_26622 »

@ Ajay Sharma and d_berwal - I wrote a sarcastic comment - not to be taken literally. Will delete sarcastic part of my post since it was perceived as objectionable/going overboard.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Philip »

These two recent reports give a clearer picture about the urgent need for an LUH and why Dhruv may not be ideal for such high alt ops where lighter helos are preferred.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-ar ... ed-2006488
Army's High altitude operations suffer as Advanced Light Helicopter 'Dhruv' grounded
Wednesday, 30 July 2014
Army's high altitude operations have taken in hit as the fleet of Advanced Light Helicopter- Dhruv, has been grounded after Friday's crash involving seven IAF personnel including two pilots in Sitapur in Uttar Pradesh. These recently inducted ALH have been operating as the lifeline for troops deployed in the high altitude posts in North Kashmir, Siachen, Ladakh and parts of North-East, alongwith ageing vintage fleet of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters.

These choppers are considered as the lifeline for high altitude posts, which are inaccessible by roads to supply ration, equipment, weapons and casualty evacuation missions.

According to sources, HAL, which manufacturers Dhruv, were taken aback by the Dhruv crash, as the copter was cleared by the IAF itself for flying a week before the accident. The black box of the chopper has been sent to Bangalore for detailed examination and the entire fleet of ALH has been grounded for now. Meanwhile, defence minister Arun Jaitely is also considering Army's long pending demand of Light Utility helicopters (LUH). The Rs3,000 crore deal to procure 197 Light utility helicopters has been pending since 2007 over bribery allegations.

Considering army's demand, the Defence Acquisition Council, headed by Jaitely is expected to the take up the matter of 197 helicopters in its next scheduled meeting on August 7. Of the 197 choppers, 130 odd will be given to the Army aviation and remaining will be with the IAF.
http://www.janes.com/article/39560/dela ... ap-crashes
Delays to India's LUH procurement 'leading to capability gap, crashes'
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
18 June 2014
Attempts to replace the Cheetah in Indian service have been repeatedly delayed. Source: IHS/Patrick Allen

Recurring delays to the Indian Army's acquisition of 197 light utility helicopters (LUHs) to replace its fleet of 1960s-era French platforms have created a crisis in sustaining its formations in the Himalayas, according to a retired army official.

The postponements have been blamed for accidents involving Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters (ALHs), the first in August 2013 and a second in March. Both crashes took place while the helicopters were ferrying supplies to soldiers deployed in Ladakh and on the Siachen Glacier, which borders Pakistan and China, at heights above 5000 m.

"The heavy ALHs have not yet been stabilised for such high altitudes and should never be employed there," Lieutenant General BS Pawar (retd), a former head of the Army Aviation Corps (AAC), told IHS Jane's .

"However, the continuing shortage of LUHs is compelling the army to use ALHs in Siachen with disastrous consequences," he added.


The LUH programme, under which 133 platforms would be bought for the AAC and 64 for the Indian Air Force (IAF), is intended to replace the licence-built Chetak (Aerospatiale Alouette III) and Cheetah (Aerospatiale SA-315B Lama) helicopters inducted into service more than four decades ago.

However, defence industry officials have told IHS Jane's that commercial bids to replace them submitted in 2008 by Eurocopter for its AS550 Fennec and Kamov with its Ka-226 Sergei expire on 30 June.

This deadline follows a six-month extension granted in January by India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) to the helicopter manufacturers to resolve complex corruption allegations in the LUH tender, field trials for which concluded in 2010.

On 4 January the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) charged a serving one-star Indian Army officer with offering to favour AgustaWestland's AW119 Koala helicopter, which competed in the LUH tender, for a EUR5 million (USD6.68 million) bribe.

The AW119 helicopter was eliminated from the competition following the first round of winter trials in 2009-10 on technical grounds, but the allegations persisted, culminating in the CBI registering a case despite an internal Indian Army inquiry revealing no wrongdoing.

At this point, it is unclear whether India's newly installed BJP government will permit Eurocopter and Kamov to extend their commercial bids to enable the CBI to conclude its inquiries and keep the LUH tender active.

It is also considering issuing a fresh request for proposals - the third for the LUH programme since 2002-03 - a development that would add another three-to-four years of trials and negotiations.

The LUH procurement was first terminated in late 2007 after the MoD revealed discrepancies in the evaluation process that had shortlisted the AS550 C3 Fennec model over the Bell 407 platform.
COMMENT

Repeated delays in procuring new LUHs resulted in the AAC and the IAF opting for 30-35 stopgap Cheetals from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) three years ago.

A Cheetah derivative, the Cheetal is powered by the more powerful Turbomeca TM-333-2M2 free turbine turboshaft engine and equipped with marginally better avionics. However, it also faces problems as HAL has procured outdated Series 85 high-altitude rotor blades for only 20 helicopters for the AAC - with no spares - and none for the IAF as the blades are no longer manufactured.

HAL tried to substitute Type 30 rotor blades, which failed to meet not only the high-altitude requirements of its own test pilots but also those of the IAF as they generated excessive vibration and provided inadequate lift
.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_26622 »

@ Phillip -
"The heavy ALHs have not yet been stabilised for such high altitudes and should never be employed there," Lieutenant General BS Pawar (retd), a former head of the Army Aviation Corps (AAC), told IHS Jane's .
Not sure how much faith to put in a retired army officer quoted by a foreign publication. Foreign news services have never written anything good about India, for any kind of achievement - for their own domestic reasons obviously.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_22539 »

^If that general really did say that, then we know why there is so much import addiction in the IA. It starts right from the top.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rohitvats »

The requirement for LUH stands on it's own merit - it is plain nonsense to conflate the same with Dhruv in IA or IAF service.

As Hari Nair Sir had cleared on this forum couple of pages back, requirement of LUH from Siachen perspective is due to size limitation of some posts which require helicopter in 'mosquito' class as LUH is supposed to be. As it is, it is the IAF which serves Siachen with Cheetah helicopters while IA Army Aviation Squadron operates ALH.

Further, I don't think there is any data-point to show that those two crashes on Siachen mentioned in one of the reports happened because ALH were employed in a role outside their envelope.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by merlin »

rohitvats wrote:
Further, I don't think there is any data-point to show that those two crashes on Siachen mentioned in one of the reports happened because ALH were employed in a role outside their envelope.
So why is the good Lt. Gen. saying that?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Philip »

He's not just a "retd. army offcier". He is Lieutenant General BS Pawar , a former head of the Army Aviation Corps (AAC).His views must be taken seriously,countered if inaccurate.However,it is common knowledge for years that the Chetaks,Cheetahs were long in the tooth and needed replacement years ago.The acquisition process was "terminated" 7 yrs. ago (!) due to corruption allegations. We have a disturbing trend to "shoot the messenger".Study the message.A desi LUH is nowhere on the horizon as far as series production is concerned. If I'm not mistaken the LUH tender has been shelved for the second or third time.

Secondly as I've said,the requirement for LUHs will be at least between 300-400,perhaps even more,when you take into account the civilian market which is booming.The LUH will be a cost-effective system if built in the hundreds. Right now the IA/IAF truly require the bird. A quick decision must be made.There is room for both.As was said in the above post,
requirement of LUH from Siachen perspective is due to size limitation of some posts which require helicopter in 'mosquito' class as LUH is supposed to be.
There is no need to confuse the needs for both.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

As always you miss the point. What Hari Nair posted on the ALH comes from his experience as a test pilot and as someone who flies the ALH first hand, as versus second hand opinion of somevody who doesn't personally operate the ALH and who may be mistaken for a bunch of reasons.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Cybaru »

Well the process is broken! If you are going to run out of options in the next 5 years, you start planning today. Not 5 years after the last chetah, chetak has been procured and the line shut.

You don't go tell your cook, make me food in next 30 minutes when there is no stores to cook from, ( so the cook has to go and acquire those ) or threaten to eat at restaurant and label the cook incompetent, do you?. This threatening relationship is that of a institution not invested in a healthy process of even identifying its own needs. This needs a shift in culture and ability to look differently of process of arriving at the outcome. If there is a 10 year lag from defining requirements and receiving goods and services then start 10 years before things are due.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by deejay »

Philip wrote:He's not just a "retd. army offcier". He is Lieutenant General BS Pawar , a former head of the Army Aviation Corps (AAC).His views must be taken seriously,countered if inaccurate.However,it is common knowledge for years that the Chetaks,Cheetahs were long in the tooth and needed replacement years ago.The acquisition process was "terminated" 7 yrs. ago (!) due to corruption allegations. We have a disturbing trend to "shoot the messenger".Study the message.A desi LUH is nowhere on the horizon as far as series production is concerned. If I'm not mistaken the LUH tender has been shelved for the second or third time.

Secondly as I've said,the requirement for LUHs will be at least between 300-400,perhaps even more,when you take into account the civilian market which is booming.The LUH will be a cost-effective system if built in the hundreds. Right now the IA/IAF truly require the bird. A quick decision must be made.There is room for both.As was said in the above post,
requirement of LUH from Siachen perspective is due to size limitation of some posts which require helicopter in 'mosquito' class as LUH is supposed to be.
There is no need to confuse the needs for both.

I do not agree with the Lt General (retd). I do not understand what he means by 'stabilised'? Would love to know where is he employed now (no corruption angle, just conflict of interest). Be ware of Jane's (as per me only). Never mentioned a good word for our systems, have they? They will scrounge for an opposing opinion till they get one.

The LUH is an independent requirement and ALH need not be discredited to justify the LUH.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by deejay »

Cybaru wrote:Well the process is broken! If you are going to run out of options in the next 5 years, you start planning today. Not 5 years after the last chetah, chetak has been procured and the line shut.

You don't go tell your cook, make me food in next 30 minutes when there is no stores to cook from, ( so the cook has to go and acquire those ) or threaten to eat at restaurant and label the cook incompetent, do you?. This threatening relationship is that of a institution not invested in a healthy process of even identifying its own needs. This needs a shift in culture and ability to look differently of process of arriving at the outcome. If there is a 10 year lag from defining requirements and receiving goods and services then start 10 years before things are due.
Hello Sir, the IA is not making the statement from where this discussion took off. It is a Retd Lt General. Also, the IA made its reqmt known a long time ago. It was a big deal. It almost got closed. Then some thing gave. You know what - back then, the company I worked for was a representative in India for one of the competitors in the deal. We only represented them in the Civilian spheres. I do have some inside line on how the IA was left helicopterless and as per what I know, can't fault the Army's process there. I can't say how it is going to pan out now, but in the previous regime folks were messing with everything that needed Tax payers money.

The IA as an institution had identified its need. If the date is today for the goods, then more than 10 yrs ago. But it does not matter, you will hold the IA responsible anyway. Cheers then! :(
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Viv S »

The 'urgent' requirement for LUHs seems to be chalked up primarily to the Siachen op. That being the case, lets just lease (not even buy), just enough to support it. Order extra Dhruvs as gap-fillers for the plains formations pending arrival of HAL's LUH.

Can someone tell me how many helicopters we have based at Leh (?) right now?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_26622 »

We have 76 KMS and 150 posts (http://www.siachenglacier.com/) - finding a site dedicated to Siachen was suprising.

150 posts, assume 33% need LUH delivery every 3 days i.e. 20 deliveries per day, rest are Dhruv compatible. This is an inflated number in my humble opinion as I will really challenge what LUH can do which DHRUV cannot. Most of the times these helicopters do not even touch down, just hover for transfer and are off based on my readings , So LUH or DHRUV is immaterial if not touching down, plus Dhruv delivers twice as much in payload. BTW - Expecting 'nonsense' comment on above from die hard importistas!

So we need 20 LUH at the most - enough remaining cheetah and cheetals to serve this job in our inventory.

Basically this is another sham news article claiming ' Buy 300 LUH or lose Siachen'. Guess the Import lobby morons believe that after 'brain drain' to US, average IQ of remaining Indians is negative.

I see a predictable pattern here - basically trying to scaremonger and create an immediate urgency whenever an indigenous alternative is within 3~5 years of delivery. Basically want to drain our money and leave nothing for ordering substancial numbers of locally developed variants - which is an end to the program anyways. Instead of been an export house we continue our import handicap. Here are some examples happening as we speak -

T-90 orders just when Arjun was there - we ordered 2000 tincans and have no money or burning urgency left for Arjun - Result 125 Arjuns and permanent MBT handicap while pakis churn out equivalent tanks in-house.

Rafale 20 billion order is really an attempt to kill Tejas. After spending that boat load of money IAF will be scraping for pennies to keep these dressed up old hags flying and cannot order more than 40 Tejas - Another permanent handicap in the making.

IAF and Army combined order for Apache will effectively kill LCH (or the urgency), repeat of Arjun saga and third Handicap - getting tired of even writing further examples here, but rest assured plenty are there.

Bottomline - The story keeps repeating >> Import lobbyist have made enough money to buy out whole segments of media and what not anyways to kill anything which will even scratch their 'free' cash flow .

start of sarcasm - Instead of focussing our guns on Pakistan and China, we should take a break and focus them on Delhi instead. Get rid of the import lobby and Pakis + China will respect our home grown strength - end of sarcasm
Philip
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Philip »

What guns?!!! The Army has been asking for them for 26 years! Well,from the artillery experience perhaps they should not be so impatient about the LUH.The motto of the Kingdom of Babudom and of the MOD is ,"what's the indecent haste"?
Victor
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Victor »

Yea, kill the Rafale, Apache, T-90! Bring on the LCA, LCH, Arjun! We only need 20 LUH! The generals are stupid, we know best!
nik wrote: start of sarcasm - Instead of focussing our guns on Pakistan and China, we should take a break and focus them on Delhi instead. Get rid of the import lobby and Pakis + China will respect our home grown strength - end of sarcasm
Even the pakis couldn't have said it better. Bravo.
Vivek K
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Vivek K »

Yeah - we need the T-90 tin cans, the Apaches and the Rafales that you will be mortgaging your future generations for only to be charged an arm and a leg to integrate every little improvement!! The Pakis, the French, the Russkies etc are laughing all the way to the bank. True, the Pakis could not have said it better. Yes the Generals know best!!
Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

i have been saying the same thing. even when not a targeted vajra to kill some domestic project, the high capex of imports and AMC for 30 yr lifecycle ensures in the usual funding crunches its the imports which are fed because they are already here and need to be kept operational, else preparedness will suffer. nobody has the money and patience for the long slow buildup of new domestic products to full maturity and successor products.

lot of people are just looking for quick fixes and quick bucks on the side.

russia is going to make another fortune supporting the 2000 T90 with ammo, engines, electronics, missiles for the next 30 yrs thus sustaining their domestic suppliers and design engineers. our tank designers would leave to work M&M and Toyota in due course. :roll:
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