Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Jul 2014 17:44

I'm thoroughly confused by these missiles. Is there any list or article about history of development, features etc ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jul 2014 19:16

hecky, We already have lot of FUD on Arihant. Please dont project your dreams onto DRDO and cause disappointement!!!

BO-5 is the K15. ArunS has shown many times the 700km range K-15 can go farther in a different trajectory.

Also from DRDO's own test schedules it takes quite a few flights to proof a new weapon system. So K-4 will come in later. How much later? We dont know.
But definitely before 2020. Maybe in second series and then Arihant class could be back fitted.

Lets be happy with what is at hand and not yearn for unobtanium at the present time.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 23 Jul 2014 19:54

ramana wrote:hecky, We already have lot of FUD on Arihant. Please dont project your dreams onto DRDO and cause disappointement!!!

BO-5 is the K15. ArunS has shown many times the 700km range K-15 can go farther in a different trajectory.

But no news article have ever stated the range of BO-5/K-15 to be anything but 700 Km.
I know ArusS speculated the range to be 1900 Km with reduced payload (200 Kg?) in ballistic profile.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jul 2014 20:48

vaibhav.n wrote: You could be right about the AD Brigades. Such a AD heavy Brigade exclusively for the use by an Armoured Division is curious. Likely that the Division's Armoured Brigades do not have organic AD Batteries unlike the Indep Armoured Brigades. Looked up SIPRI also, around 100 SA-8 Gecko units were imported from the Soviets and delivered around 1984. ZSU-23-4 Shilka also number 100 units inducted around 1977 onwards. However they also mention a transfer of 200 units of SA-9 Gaskins, never seen those in IA service.

Looks like, they have a SA-19+SA-13+SA-8 Regiments in these Brigades

vaibhav - in my reading on the topic, I've identified 13 (I) AD Brigades - of which last was raised in in 2007.

Check this news item: http://sainiksamachar.nic.in/englisharc ... 07/h3.html

<SNIP> In order to provide air defence protection to all the important assets within the Corps Zone and thereby, enhance its war fighting potential, 619 (Independent) Air Defence Brigade has been raised by, Lt Gen AS Sekhon, General Officer Commanding 15 Corps. Lt Gen K S Dogra, Director General and Senior Colonel Commandant, Army Air Defence was also present on this occasion.

As a prescursor to the raising of this Air Defence Brigade, 619 Joint Air Defence Centre (JADC) was established on April 15, 2005 under the aegis of Headquarters, 9 Corps at Yol Camp. The Unit was re-orbitted to 611 (Independent) Air Defence Brigade and moved to Srinagar on June 25, last year. Col Jarnail Singh has the honour of becoming the first officiating Commander of this formation. It will be the 13th Air Defence Brigade of the Indian Army

.

Now, all these 13 AD Brigades are (I) AD Brigades - And it seems that while some of these are directly under Corps HQ, others are under Command HQ.

For example, as per this news item, 611 (AD) Brigade Group is under Northern Command while the one linked earlier says that 619 (I) AD Brigade will be under 15 Corps.

http://www.sainiksamachar.nic.in/englis ... 13/h13.htm

Twenty Five Air Defence Regiment under the aegis of 611 (Independent) Air Defence Brigade (Northern Command) organised a eye-cum-medical camp under Operation Sadbhavana on March 3, 2013 at Primary Health Centre Khoon, Village-Balpur, Tehsil-Majalta in Udhampur (J&K).

On the AD assets with Armored Division(s), your guess is as good as mine. Of the 13 (I) AD Brigades, three are classified as (I) Mechanized Brigades. There location, according to me, should put them under each Strike Corps. And, these seem to be in addition to integral AD assets of Armored Division. Because if they were not, I don't think those RD-Parade contingents would be sporting Armored Division formation sign.

Coming to the potpourri of UNIT Types in AD Regiment, here is what I've been able to gather:

1. AD Regiment
2. AD Regiment (Mobile)
3. AD Regiment (SP)
4. AD Regiment (Mobile - Flycatcher)
5. LT AD Regiment (Composite)
6. LT AD Regiment (SP)
7. LT AD Missile Regiment
8. LT AD Missile Regiment (SP)
9. AD Missile Regiment (SP-Composite)
10. AD Missile Regiment (SP)

Enjoy!

Added Later: Remember, my hypothesis that SA-6 Group is likely to moved to Pivot Corps and not phased out with coming-in of Akash Group(s)? Well, here is the confirmation: http://www.sainiksamachar.nic.in/englis ... 13/h13.htm

And this report is from 2013.

The SAM-6 Missiles were recently fired on the Eastern Coast at the Guided Weapon Firing Range (GWFR) at Suryalanka, Bapatla in Andhra Pradesh. The equipment being of old vintage, all eyes were on the final results. 'The Killer Kvadrats' of 'The Desert Corps' came out with flying colours in terms of their firing capabilities. The Group performed commendably by firing five missiles at ranges of 12 to 20 Km and altitudes ranging from 2000 to 4200 metres and achieving all direct hits on the targets. The performance was unmatched as this was the highest number of direct hits achieved by any Air Defence unit firing beyond 12 Km of range. The missile firing has demonstrated the confidence of the troops in the equipment and reiterated the commitment of the Group in service of the nation. Such performance contribute immensely towards restoration of faith of the nation in the capabilities of the Indian AAD systems.

'The Killer Kvadrats' is 502 Air Defense Group (SP). I think they were with 1 Strike Corps earlier. And your Desert Corps is 12 Corps based in Jodhpur. Which has incidentally, moved its 12 RAPID forward from Jodhpur to Jaisalmer to cut down on mobilization time. The 2 x Arjun Regiments (43 Armored and 75 Armored) are part of 12 RAPID.

PS: You've mail.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 24 Jul 2014 00:26

Under water Brahmos launch.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2014 08:03

unless a couple K4 are launched from Arihant on the move , everything is maya...

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 28 Jul 2014 23:15

Does anyone know about SPYDER MR SAM deliveries

Trade register shows 6/18 delivered !!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Jul 2014 04:52

They are mixing it up with Spyder SRSAM for the IAF.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 29 Jul 2014 08:26

It also shows 300/750 missiles delivered (both Python 5 & derby)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jul 2014 08:34

it was ordered long ago. about time they started delivering.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 29 Jul 2014 16:29

tushar_m wrote:Does anyone know about SPYDER MR SAM deliveries

Trade register shows 6/18 delivered !!!!

one Regiment which having 18 batteries currently operating somewhere in North east provenance

total of 500+500 Python and SpyDer missile purchased from Israel

it's more than year ago ..it's become operational

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 29 Jul 2014 17:19

Actually 18 regiments with 108 fire units with 750 python 5 & 750 derby were to be delivered

so by calculation if 6 /18 have been delivered then 36 units (firing missiles with 4 missiles each) have been operational in 2013.

total 300 python 5 & 300 derby are delivered which can be fitted into fighters if required by minimum changes.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Jul 2014 17:31

The quantity ordered is '18 Systems' (whatever that means) and 750 missiles each of Python and Derby.

IAF Missile Units are called Squadrons and SA-3 equipped ones had 2 x Missile Flight + 1 x Technical Flight. One assumes the same TOE holds for SPYDER Missile Squadrons as well. And these would be replacing the SA-8 in IAF service. However, I don't think IAF had 18 Squadrons equipped with SA-8 to begin with.

As per internet data, each SPYDER Battery consists of 4 x Launchers and 1 x Mobile C&C vehicle (apart from loader and spare missile carrier). Assuming '18 Systems' mean 18 batteries worth of equipment, we're talking about 8-9 IAF SYPDER Missile Squadrons here.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 30 Jul 2014 10:11

rohitvats wrote:The quantity ordered is '18 Systems' (whatever that means) and 750 missiles each of Python and Derby.
<snip>
As per internet data, each SPYDER Battery consists of 4 x Launchers and 1 x Mobile C&C vehicle (apart from loader and spare missile carrier). Assuming '18 Systems' mean 18 batteries worth of equipment, we're talking about 8-9 IAF SYPDER Missile Squadrons here.

One of the questions I have is given that the Astra exists, what need is there for the Derby?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_%28missile%29#Derby
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_%28missile%29

Derby Astra

Length: 362 cm 35.7
Span: 64 cm 25.4
Diameter: 16 cm 17.8
Weight: 118 kg 154 kg
Guidance: Active Radar Active Radar
Warhead: 23 kg 15 kg
Range: 50 km 80-110km(Because land based, range will be reduced to Derbys)
Speed: Mach 4 Mach 4 + (4780 Km/h)

These missiles are practically identical in range and performance and being radar guided missiles. The Python is just a cut down Derby. Doesn't it make sense to replace this with an indigenous system instead?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jul 2014 10:21

the Astra is well away from even IOC.

typically A2A missiles do around 50 test launches before the final config is reached and problems sorted out, reliability proven.

I am not expecting Astra mk1 FOC before 2020 since IAF has ample stocks of AA10 and AA12 and not intending to deploy the astra immediately outside the Tejas. it all depends on how urgently the user agency needs it.

they might even pull a pinaka and ask for Mk2 Astra as the volume production model.

and it needs to FOC as a A2A missile before thoughts can turn into VL-mica type SAM system which will need a different ground radar for providing the initial navigation path.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 30 Jul 2014 12:29

^Singha sir ... it will be pathetic if Astra mk1 FOC is around 2020 due to existing stocks. It will take time to setup production and sort out initial problems.

So I sincerely hope IAF are serious about it and try to induct it asap.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Jul 2014 13:53

A few years ago there was a CAG report calling out the R77 missile for failing in tests and 'ageing' faster than expected(http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/n ... rt/490055/). Wonder what the situation in now.
Also are there no plans for a Short Range AAM?

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 31 Jul 2014 11:27

Singha wrote:the Astra is well away from even IOC.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/10476/ ... s_BVR_RFP_

The DRDO is now confident it will be able to meet the revised project completion date of December 2016.

All from the same article linked above.

Astra Project Director S Venugopal said multiple agencies and private Indian companies had contributed to the missile's success.

A Mk II variant of the Astra with a range of 100 km could be tested by the end of the year, he said. The DRDO previously said the Mk II would have a new dual-pulse solid rocket motor that it is claimed would more than double the missile's optimum range to 100 km.

Thoughts of a Mica style system can begin now, because they have already tested it in a vertical launch

http://sirfnews.com/sci-tech/india-s-fi ... 30mki.html

On 27 March that year, vertical launch of the missile was carried out, suggesting the use of the missile as a long range surface to air missile for the Indian Navy to arm its destroyers and frigates and for the IAF.

Every single system and sub system is in place. 2020 is too pessimistic, it seems Mark 1 will be ready by 2016, and Mark 2 based on current rate of progress can be expected in 2017. It won't take nearly as long for Mark 2 because most things are already done. Mark 2 is just made of composite materials like carbon fiber.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2014 11:51

Rien, I just hope the IAF is sensible and pragmatic and orders at least a 1000 units of MK1 to replace/supplement existing R77 stocks. Instead of ordering a 100 and then saying bulk orders will only happen with MK2.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 31 Jul 2014 12:27

^ I hope you are right, but fear an Arjun style token orders of only 2-300.

The IAF can show their colours by cancelling this tender and selecting the Astra instead. I am holding my breath hoping for the best.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/10476/ ... s_BVR_RFP_

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 31 Jul 2014 18:52

Karan M wrote:Rien, I just hope the IAF is sensible and pragmatic and orders at least a 1000 units of MK1 to replace/supplement existing R77 stocks. Instead of ordering a 100 and then saying bulk orders will only happen with MK2.

Karan is Mk. 2 Astra a Ramjet like meteor?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2014 19:01

Will be dual pulse motor like LRSAM or a regular Astra with a booster. Former is a better option than 2.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 02 Aug 2014 09:55

ToI: India, Russia plans pact for new BrahMos missile version

PTI | Aug 1, 2014, 05.40 PM IST

NEW DELHI: Supersonic cruise missile manufacturer BrahMos Aerospace on Friday said it is hopeful that a pact to develop a sleeker and faster 'mini' version of the missile will be signed during Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to India in December this year.

"We are hoping to sign a tripartite agreement between DRDO, NPOM lab and BrahMos Aerospace during the planned visit of Russian president in December," BrahMos chief Sudhir Mishra said in an interview.

Soon after taking over as CEO of the the India-Russian joint venture on Friday, he said the mini version of the BrahMos missile will have a speed of 3.5 mach and carry a payload of 300km upto a range of 290km. In size, it will be almost half of the present missile, which is around 10 metres long.

Mishra said once developed, the missile could be integrated with different platforms including submarines and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being developed jointly by the two countries.

The new BrahMos CEO said he was expecting that the missile would be inducted into the services by 2017 and "there would be a huge market for the new missile in India, Russia and friendly foreign countries"

Mishra said the air-launched version of the BrahMos missile was under progress and the first test-firing is expected to take place by either the end of this year or the beginning of the next year.

"We have already modified our missile system in terms of its weight and size. The Su-30MKI is undergoing modification so as to carry the strike weapon in its belly in partnership with the HAL," he said.

The Indo-Russian joint venture firm was set up in 1998.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Aug 2014 10:04

So if it can carry 300 Kg to 290 Km which is the same range of Brahmos with virtually half the size and weight ....one can easily see why Brahmos cant do a 500 km in Hi-Lo profile.

I wonder how they managed to increase top speed of Brahmos-M , Ramjet engine of higher Isp most likely , the other probability is reduced weight with similar Isp made it possible for better speed.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Aug 2014 15:38

Rien wrote:^ I hope you are right, but fear an Arjun style token orders of only 2-300.

The IAF can show their colours by cancelling this tender and selecting the Astra instead. I am holding my breath hoping for the best.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/10476/ ... s_BVR_RFP_

The orders for Astra will be a function of the number of launch platforms in service of the IAF.

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Aug 2014 17:38

Brahmos has taken Indian Tax payers to cleaners. We have given USD 6 Billion orders to Brahmos and after 18 years still no where near manufacturing of engine or seeker which constitute 95% cost of the missile. Also no Offsets. Now mini Brahmos will be another major jhatkaa.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 03 Aug 2014 18:35

New Delhi: In line with Prime Minister Narendra Modi's vision to export defence hardware, supersonic cruise missile manufacturer BrahMos Aerospace has said that South-East Asian and Latin American countries have shown interest in acquiring the 290-km range weapon system and it is possible to export the missile to certain friendly nations.

"Several South-East-Asian and Latin American countries want the BrahMos, expressed interest in it, particularly for the naval and coastal defence versions. A definite list of such countries already exists. We are progressing with our marketing strategy for exporting BrahMos to certain nations, subject to clearance from both Indian and Russian governments," BrahMos Aerospace CEO Sudhir Kumar Mishra said.

Mishra declined to name the countries that have shown interest in the missile system but Defence Ministry sources said Vietnam and Indonesia in South East Asia and Venezuela in Latin America have expressed willingness to procure the missile.

Mishra said the Indian contribution has so far been only for the inertial navigation guidance system and fire control system. "We have to focus on indigenously realising the engine and seeker for the BrahMos missile," he added.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/brahmos- ... 47319.html

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Aug 2014 19:16

Dhananjay wrote:
Karan is Mk. 2 Astra a Ramjet like meteor?

Meteor is a Ducted Ramjet system and not just a vanilla ramjet. Solid motor to Ducted ramjet is quite a jump. Do we have indigenous ducted ramjet rocket technology, incorporated in some other missile, or perhaps any known tech demo program??

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 03 Aug 2014 19:17

Rs 30,000 cr Indo-French missile develeopment plan in troubled waters

An Indo-French proposed joint venture expected to be worth around Rs 30,000 crore to develop short range air defence missiles seems to have run into rough weather as Indian Air Force feels that its requirements could be met by indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile weapon system.

The proposed joint venture is planned between DRDO and the French missile manufacturer MBDA under which they were planning to produce short-range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) systems for the Indian Air Force for the Maitri programme.

The Akash air defence missile system has already been developed by the DRDO indigenously and its development trials were completed successfully by the agency in Odisha recently.

The SR-SAM is also planned to be a project in the same class, highly placed sources said here.

The IAF feels that when the indigenous system meets the requirements of the force, then there is no requirement for importing or co-developing a similar system, they said.

Good to see the growing trust between the IAF and the DRDO. At the same time, its also a food for thought for many of us who use undesirable adjectives against some top IAF and IA officers. Many a time, the forces preference for a foreign weapon system is not merely because of corruption but also because of its lack of trust on the Indian agencies. I believe that systems like Akash, LCA, Arjun etc will go a long way towards bridging this trust deficit.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Aug 2014 19:57

^^^

just too good to be true. But if it is actually the truth. Then my happiness is beyond words.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Aug 2014 20:03

^^^The above statement from IAF re-confirms my earlier doubts about the viability of MAITRI Project. From purely operational requirement perspective.

The reason being - IAF has already inducted SPYDER for replacing the SA-8 GECKO SAM in it's inventory. And if I'm not grossly off the chart, this missile system falls more or less in same class as SR-SAM planned under MAITRI. Therefore, while the overall requirement in terms of Squadron strength is still there, it makes no sense for IAF to induct a completely new system. They should ideally be inducting more SPYDER.

Also, in the IA RFP for LLORM SAM, MAITRI is one of the contenders. As is the SPYDER system. For sake of commonality, IA and IAF should both be operating the same missile. Should help to get good deal from Israelis as well.

Having said that - I don't know why the news report talks about AKASH SAM and MAITRI in the same vein. The two are different categories of missiles. Unless, the IAF feels that combination of AKASH and LR-SAM should suffice their requirement and they need SR-SAM only in limited numbers already filled by SPYDER.

To me, the only plausible explanation of going ahead with MAITRI Project seems to be from Technology Transfer angle to DRDO. The combined requirement of IA and IAF for such SR_SAM/LLQRM is pretty large - both to replace the existing systems and increase the number of units.

The DRDO may feel that MAITRI would give them technology to meet this requirement through JV while giving them technology to develop future missiles of various categories in-house.

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Aug 2014 20:09

Maitri and Akash seem different because of size but they cover the similar range/s profiles. Also by the time Maitri hits production, we will be producing Astra in numbers. So between 2014-2020 we can induct Akash and thereafter Astra Mk-1 and 2 as SRSAM

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Aug 2014 20:11

But at the same time, wasn't the SPYDER banned by the Saint. At least that's what I recall, Iin the vicinity of 2010. That could explain the maitry project.

In the meantime with the IAF developing confidence in the Akash they decided that maitry was not needed.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 03 Aug 2014 20:18

^ I think you meant to say Barak-1.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Aug 2014 21:07

^^ Both VL-MICA & Spyder were considered for the LLQRM requirement & Spyder was selected. Maitri project is more from a ToT perspective since developing a small compact missile is challenging by itself.

IN needs SR-SAM as a replacement for Barak-1, and that will be fitted to Kamorta & Kolkata class ships that presently lack PDMS.

SR-SAM will be ARH or IIR guided, and a significant improvement over CLOS Barak1

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 03 Aug 2014 21:14

With Astra mk1 and mk2 in the work, do we need maitri other than the imaging seeker technology?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Aug 2014 21:15

Pratyush wrote:^^^

just too good to be true. But if it is actually the truth. Then my happiness is beyond words.

Unusual thing to be rejoicing over, falling through of a military program, but can't help but be utterly delighted.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 03 Aug 2014 21:19

^^ Or local joint dev being killed now for a future full import angle with a "urgent need" for heat seeker?

Just cynical moi; burnt too many times by the shooting down of improved version of marut, follow on for Deepak etc and finally getting full import based replacement of insas.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2014 21:24

with nothing having started yet, its too late to say any IN ship could find use for maitri when induced maybe 10-15 yrs FOC.

its better to bring the Astra up to scratch and make a land/naval VL system for it like the russians did with the SA-15 tor.
being a AAM the airframe will have the tolerances needed for hard turn from vertical to horizontal post launch and then the engagement vs head on or crossing targets.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 03 Aug 2014 21:47

A SRSAM programme can be fast tracked by using the Astra missile and the fire control system from the Akash.