India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

[SaiK]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=21234 There are ICs that you will be buying anyway, but what you make with those ICs is ultimately your system, your design.

AC saab is right, however your design is still under the control how those ICs can be put to use.. they have restrictions and hack points perhaps depending on what is integrated into those chips.[especially sourced from massa].

I think the question should have been answered to Aero Engines.. we are lagging like crazy! in that department.

[Victor]

Actually as far as fuel efficency goes truboprops are considered more efficient for short and medium distances and there is an argument for the returm of turboprops in this era of low profit margins .

The repair and maintenance of turboprops are higher than jets for a variety of reasons and is why most short/medium haul routes are changing to jets. Noise pollution is another biggie and it is possible now for a small jet to land in city-center airports because of noise-reduction tech on jets. On short haul routes (like Mumbai-Pune) where there is not enough time to climb to 20k+ ft, props may have an edge efficiency-wise but then door-to-door times and costs may soon become much more attractive with ground transport at those distances (a/c buses on improved multi-lane roads, fast trains etc).

Point is the thinking that resulted in Saras concept is decades old and practically useless today. Saras most likely can be competitive in the short-distance market only as a premium door-to-door business aircraft flying people to rough mine and factory airfields for example, but Mahindra is miles ahead in this space already. As a jet however, it has a chance of competing both in India and abroad as a corporate aircraft. Unless another company jumps in before NAL can move as is very likely.

[Neela]

The arguments against Turboprops seem to not changed for a long time. The glamour of high-bypass , slick sounding jet engines cannot be matched by TPs. But I am willing to bet that TPs will be there and still running 2-3 decades from now. Wait a little more before writing obituaries.

[Neela]

Splitting posts keep it focusssed on select topics.

Above graph shows trends in the market. Now, looking at inventory from here ( from 2013):


That looks very healthy

[Neela]

From the link in the post above:

We expect both manufacturers to get even busier, as Pratt & Whitney Canada is expected to introduce a new engine, currently called the Next Generation Regional Turboprop to replace its current PW100 series. That engine will include a new compressor, a scaled-version of PW’s Talon burner, and an 8 bladed propeller to provide a 20% improvement in fuel burn. That magnitude of an improvement is enough of a difference for customers to mandate adoption of the new technology engines on existing or new development programs – much like the GTF forced re-engining programs for A320 (neo) and Embraer EJets (E2). Re-engined models should appear in the 2018 time frame, given typical lead times.

It will be a little naieve to assume that next generation TPs will not try to reduce noise . From this post here

There is a perception that TPs do not have the same level of technology as jets. Nothing could be further from the truth. Today’s TP-powered airliners have the same accoutrements - radar, GPS, HUDs. And they even have noise cancellation making them about as quiet as jets even though they have huge props spinning a few feet away from the cabin. They are also nearly as fast, too. The “killer app” for a TP is that it burns much less fuel per passenger – so for short missions (typically 350nm or ~60 minutes) a TP has better economics. On a typical short route of 300nm the fuel consumption of an ATR 72 is roughly half that of a regional jet.

[member_23694]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/ch ... 57765.aspx

Dire need to speed up DRDO’s output

Those in the ministry of defence (MoD), who exercise control over DRDO, are blissfully ignorant of what defence equipment is all about. In weapons, they can’t tell a gun from a howitzer, and in engines, a cam shaft from a crank shaft.

There is little understanding and mutual confidence between the DRDO and the defence services

The DRDO never spells out its technological status in relation to the equipment to be developed. With the result, GSQRs are prepared without proper interaction with the DRDO, but keeping in mind what is already in the market.

The DRDO never seeks the scaling down of the GSQRs to a level at which it can handle projects, in the full knowledge and belief that the project can be dragged on endlessly and that no one will be called upon to account. Once a project is taken on, complete secrecy prevails and service officers posted with these establishments are kept out of the loop.

When the USSR broke up, some governments of east European countries offered to shift state-of-the-art defence industries to other countries. India spurned these offers, while China took two thousand scientists and some of the defence industrial units. In India, there is a politico-bureaucratic nexus which has successfully thwarted such moves, for obvious reasons.

Close down those establishments of DRDO which are busy re-inventing the wheel, and those whose tasks can best be done in the private sector. Get it out of the control of the MoD. Equally do away with most of the defence ordnance factories. Pass on production of such equipment to the private sector.

It is DRDO component grouped with the navy that has performed well. This has essentially been due to direct control that the navy has exercised over this component. Of the three establishments, one is always commanded by a naval officer and the other two have a number of naval officers on their establishment. Thus a series of projects have been successfully completed: some on their own and some others as part of collaboration with certain foreign companies.

Restructure the MoD as an integrated organisation, consisting of bureaucrats, defence services staff, scientists and financial experts. It would ensure better coordination, cutting out duplication and triplication of work, improved efficiency and speedy decision-making. Integrated defence planning and defence technology development have become an inescapable necessity.

Pending adoption of the CDS system, DRDO’s various establishments need to be grouped with the army and IAF on same lines as for the navy.

[RoyG]

Our "immature" indian industry is now being entrusted with producing helicopters after the scrapping of light utility helicopter deal.

[Victor]

I am willing to bet that TPs will be there and still running 2-3 decades from now. Wait a little more before writing obituaries.

Nobody is writing obituaries for turboprops. As tactical military aircraft and short-medium range passenger aircraft flying at low-medium altitudes they will remain competitive but as a 14-seater, Saras can only be viable as a niche aircraft where Mahindra has pulled ahead in the turboprop space. As a fuel-sipping jet above 20k ft, it has a chance to break through and become relevant. This is just a reflection of NAL's thinking where IMO it has failed to make a case for Saras in its current configuration and has slipped further into irrelevance in the space as others overtake it.

[Indranil]

There is no way that we will be able to settle the debate on whether a turboprop is better than a turbofan in a 14-seater segment. There are large sales on both sides. And that is why I am suggesting both. But, Saras can certainly gain from is going down from a crew of 3 to 2. Who has a flight engineer in a 14-seater plane?

By the way, we missed this.

Saras ready to take off again
August 19, 2014: India's first indigenous civilian aircraft, the 14-seater push-prop SARAS could get back into the air any day now. After a five-year grounding following a devastating March 2009 crash that killed its there-man IAF test crew, the National Aerospace Laboratory, in coordination with the IAF's Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) are undersood to be confident of a first flight before Diwali this year. As reported earlier by SP's, the ASTE had begun ground trials of the modified PT1N platform around December last year, and has undergone a rigorous routine of ground handling, turning and taxi trials, including static systems trials. Former NAL chief and aerospace guru Prof. Roddam Narasimha recently spoke out about the various programmes, and said that the proposed the Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) could spearhead a much needed new wave in Indian capabilities alongside the Saras. "It should be a turbo-prop aircraft, executed in a public-Private Partnership (PPP) mode, preferably as part of a global consortium, and should be viewed as a common “civil-military” platform that would also address the transport aircraft needs of the Indian Air Force in terms of the Avro and AN-32 replacements, thus generating the numbers and associated economic viability needed to make it successful," he said.

P.S. Please disregard those pictures. They are from HSTT in 2004.

[srin]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/ch ... 57765.aspx

Dire need to speed up DRDO’s output

My eyes glazed over when I saw it was completely one-sided and I had to go to the main source to confirm that the author is an ex-general of army. The relationship between DRDO, DPSUs and services (mainly other than Navy) is really rotten. And this street fight seen in multiple fora (I remember an AeroIndia 2013 seminar, and the roundtable on MMRCA) is getting pretty ugly and won't benefit anyone.

I honestly don't know why DRDO projects always drag on. But my two guesses (I don't know which one is right)
a) If DRDO doesn't commit to a specific time, then it fears it won't get the project to do it in-house, or won't get the budget.

b) It really is difficult to know ahead of time how long something will take. You need everything from basic science to metallurgy to engineering for any project to be successful and it becomes hard to estimate if you aren't even in there. And as you master the domain, it becomes progressively easier. For instance, it took a long while to mature in the missile development, but the advances there are pretty amazing.


I don't know why Navy and DRDO have the least of issues - maybe it is because they are more engineering oriented ?

[Surya]

If any proof of this lavish expenditure is required, one need go no further than have a look at the DRDO office complex at the rear of South Block and then of course see Sena Bhavan as well.

seems like all ex faujis discuss this in the club and spout the same line

[Victor]

I don't know why Navy and DRDO have the least of issues - maybe it is because they are more engineering oriented ?

The general has answered this question:

It is DRDO component grouped with the navy that has performed well. This has essentially been due to direct control that the navy has exercised over this component. Of the three establishments, one is always commanded by a naval officer and the other two have a number of naval officers on their establishment.

IAF wanted to do the same thing with HAL but was rebuffed by the babus. Can't imagine them handing over control of OFB to the Army either. As the general says, DRDO/HAL/OFB need to be broken up/overhauled/closed/pensioned off or things will never change. I only hope that the new govt will understand this soon and act with urgency, otherwise we are finished.

[Sagar G]

There is a level lame and then there are "researched" articles written by Ex defence personnels. Each and every time such "ground breaking" articles comes out of places where the sun doesn't shine it provides an opportunity to have a few laughs in an otherwise serious thread (trolls also achieve the same effect). Here we have Lt Gen Harwant Singh (retd) claiming

It is DRDO component grouped with the navy that has performed well. This has essentially been due to direct control that the navy has exercised over this component. Of the three establishments, one is always commanded by a naval officer and the other two have a number of naval officers on their establishment. Thus a series of projects have been successfully completed: some on their own and some others as part of collaboration with certain foreign companies. Nuclear submarine is one such example.

This and the rest of the part about Naval control over DRDO labs is total and absolute bunkum/lie being peddled by him. First of all the Navy has a tilt towards indigenization which is unmatched by IAF/IA. It is in their culture to seek out for indigenization no matter what the cost even to the level where warships gets delayed because of the Navy's will to have indigenous components. Full marks to Navy for that. To add to that they don't display the contempt for our scientific/engineering community (except a few) which is otherwise prevalent in IA/IAF as can be seen by multiple articles written by ex IA/IAF personnels. Coming to the three labs that he talks about let me post the info for the same

Naval Materials Research Laboratory

Director's Profile

Dr. R.S.HASTAK is a post-graduate in Chemical Engineering from Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay in the year 1978 and Ph.D in the year 2012 from Defence Institute of Advanced Technology(Deemed University), Pune. He joined Defence Research & Development Orgnisation in the year 1980. His experience includes rocket propulsion, power sources for aerospace applications, Carbon-Carbon Composites, field mobile ground support systems. He worked in DRDO labs located in Hyderabad for three decades.

Dr. R.S.HASTAK was appointed as the Director, Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) in Dec 2009. In his present capacity, he is spearheading research, technology & product development activities in the area of materials for marine applications. He is actively involved in the technology development for the fuel cells & supercapacitors.

In the area of marine materials, Dr. R. S. Hastak is working on high strength, high stiffness metallic materials, polymeric & ceramic materials. He is leading a team engaged in the development & productionisation of corrosion resistant paints & coatings for marine applications and antifouling coatings for marine vessels.

Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory

Director's Profile

Shri S Anantha Narayanan Outstanding Scientist and Director, Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL), Kochi has been promoted to the grade of Distinguished Scientist.

Shri Anantha Narayanan obtained BTech in Electronics Engineering from IIT-Madras in 1975 and MTech in Electronics from Indian Institute of Science, Bengaluru, in 1985 with Gold Medal. He is an alumnus of the National Defence College, New Delhi, where he underwent training on National Security and Strategy in 2003.

Shri Anantha Narayanan joined DRDO in 1975 as Junior Scientific Officer at Defence Research and Development Laboratory, Hyderabad. Subsequently he was transferred to NPOL, Kochi, in 1978. He was appointed Director, NPOL, on 1 January 2007 and was promoted as Outstanding Scientist in July 2009.

Shri Anantha Narayanan has made seminal contributions to the development of sonar systems for the Indian Navy. He was part of the development team of the first frigate sonar project. He was the Team Leader for the project APSIM established in ASW School, Naval Base in 1985. During 1993-98, Shri Anantha Narayanan was the Project Director for India’s first indigenously developed submarine sonar project, which paved the way for self-reliance in this field. As Director (Systems) he was instrumental in streamlining the production andinduction of several Sonar Systems during 2000-2006. As Director, NPOL, he was instrumental in realising a new generation surface ship sonar in a very short span of time. He has guided the development work on towed array and airborne sonar systems in NPOL. Shri Anantha Narayanan is a recipient of the DRDO Scientist of the Year Award in 1995 for his outstanding contributions in development of Naval Systems.

He is a fellow of IETE and a member of Ultrasonic Society of India and Acoustical Society of India.

Naval Science & Technological Laboratory

Director's Profile

Shri CD Malleswar Sc G, has assumed the charge of Director, Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL),Visakhapatnam,wef 1 October 2013.

Shri Chengalvala DurgaMalleswar, obtained his MSc (Tech)electronics degree with Radar Engineering as specialisation from the Andhra University in 1977 and MS in Electronics and Communications form IIT-M, Chennai, in 1980. He is a graduate of the 45th course of the National Defence College, New Delhi. He also holds an MPhil in Defence and Strategic Studies, from the University of Madras. Since 1980, he is with DRDO in various capacities as Group Leader, System Designer, Officer In-charge System Integration, Project Director and Head of the Technology Directorates of Weapon Fire Control Systems and Countermeasures. His significant contributions include: First Solid-state Weapon Data Recorder for Torpedoes, first Indigenous Tactical Weapon Control System 'Panchendriya' for submarines, Helicopter Fire Control System, Integrated Anti-Submarine Warfare Complex, IAC Mod '0' and Mod 'C' for Naval Frigates and ASW Corvettes, and Anti-Torpedo Decoy Launch Control Systems. Apartfrom these, he has also contributed for successful completion of Wire Guided Torpedo Project as Officer In-charge System Integration and to several Torpedo Induction support products like Air/Ship-borne Presetters, Torpedo Simulators and Drill and Practice Torpedo, etc. All these systems are being produced by defence production agencies and inducted into the services. He is the recipient or DRDO Technology Group Award- 2004, and the DRDO Scientist of the Year Award-2007 conferred by hon'ble Prime Minister of India.

Shri Malleswar is a member of IEEE and life fellow of IETE. He has successfully conducted two national conferences ACCT-2012 and ARCNET-2013. He is presently the Chairman of IETE, Visakhapatnam.

Tell me where does anyone see the name of any Naval officer commanding any one of the institutes. There is no control of any DRDO lab by IN neither there is any hidden control by IN over the director of any of these labs. The thing here is that IN closely works with DRDO in doing all the basic R&D which is required before going on to make any worthwhile product. But accepting this will put IA/IAF into a bad place because then people will ask why aren't you doing the same ??? Which will lead to massive chaddi uttaroing exercise in full public view hence create a bogey of DRDO naval labs being under the command of Navy.

The actual agenda of this article is not wishing indigenization but

The DRDO needs to be placed under the CDS, which will result in mutual confidence and better interaction with the services and bring in efficiency and good performance.

Get the dirty civilians under Army control !!!!!

Now without creating a bogey of IN having control of DRDO labs how will you peddle your pet agenda ??? People with such mentality are very dangerous and it's good that they don't have any decision making power. Such farticles are the best they can do so read and laugh.

[member_22539]

^To think that such people were in command of our valiant soldiers, truly a case of lambs leading lions.

[srai]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/ch ... 57765.aspx

Dire need to speed up DRDO’s output

My eyes glazed over when I saw it was completely one-sided and I had to go to the main source to confirm that the author is an ex-general of army. The relationship between DRDO, DPSUs and services (mainly other than Navy) is really rotten. And this street fight seen in multiple fora (I remember an AeroIndia 2013 seminar, and the roundtable on MMRCA) is getting pretty ugly and won't benefit anyone.

I honestly don't know why DRDO projects always drag on. But my two guesses (I don't know which one is right)
a) If DRDO doesn't commit to a specific time, then it fears it won't get the project to do it in-house, or won't get the budget.

b) It really is difficult to know ahead of time how long something will take. You need everything from basic science to metallurgy to engineering for any project to be successful and it becomes hard to estimate if you aren't even in there. And as you master the domain, it becomes progressively easier. For instance, it took a long while to mature in the missile development, but the advances there are pretty amazing.


I don't know why Navy and DRDO have the least of issues - maybe it is because they are more engineering oriented ?

Looking from past dealings, the IA tends to draft its requirements from foreign brochures and wants all of those best features in indigenous products. If what has developed doesn't meet its stringent requirements then it won't accept the product. It would rather get them from foreign vendors. There seems to be a lack of an iterative methodology to induct products and then continuously improve them over time to help develop indigenous capability.

[srin]

I don't know why Navy and DRDO have the least of issues - maybe it is because they are more engineering oriented ?

The general has answered this question:

It is DRDO component grouped with the navy that has performed well. This has essentially been due to direct control that the navy has exercised over this component. Of the three establishments, one is always commanded by a naval officer and the other two have a number of naval officers on their establishment.

IAF wanted to do the same thing with HAL but was rebuffed by the babus. Can't imagine them handing over control of OFB to the Army either. As the general says, DRDO/HAL/OFB need to be broken up/overhauled/closed/pensioned off or things will never change. I only hope that the new govt will understand this soon and act with urgency, otherwise we are finished.

He has provided his perspective which we don't have to accept as face value.
Running R&D houses where scientists value their autonomy and independence is way different from commanding officers & jawans who are required to obey you. Does Army have the ability to deal with the DRDO scientists and engineers at a technical level to earn their respect ? Does he really believe that we can get instant knowledge of barrel metallurgy (for artillery) or FPA or MMW seeker (for ATGM) the moment Army takes over ?
It does seem he has no idea how to run an R&D establishment.

[Victor]

It does seem he has no idea how to run an R&D establishment.

True, and neither should he because that's not his job. You see, the scientists exist only to give the generals what they need, nothing else. Should an Indira Nooyi know how to make a micro-actuator or UV curing machine in her Pepsi plants? If Von Braun were left to his devices, he would be busy designing a rocket to Pluto. It was only the general's boot on his ass that resulted in the V2 which was needed immediately and merely to reach London.

All of this is moot. We can keep arguing about this till the cows come home but I'm fairly certain that the DPSUs as we know them are finished.

[Victor]

People with such mentality are very dangerous and it's good that they don't have any decision making power. Such farticles are the best they can do so read and laugh.

You know, I think the pakis/ISI would tend to agree with you. Only the Navy is getting stuff done--kind of--and it would be dangerous if the IAF and IA replicated the model by taking more control of what the DPSUs dabble in. After all the status quo has resulted in pshssss....pfffttttt which is exactly what the pakis/ISI want.

[Victor]

b) It really is difficult to know ahead of time how long something will take. You need everything from basic science to metallurgy to engineering for any project to be successful and it becomes hard to estimate if you aren't even in there. And as you master the domain, it becomes progressively easier. For instance, it took a long while to mature in the missile development, but the advances there are pretty amazing.

This is exactly what the general is saying. If the Army had a real understanding of the DPSU's capabilities not based on empty boasting like "we can make the best engine/phyter/phazer", maybe they wouldn't ask for those things because their lives depend on it, not merely their careers. As things stand, what alternative do they have to taking the DPSU's words at face value?

[Picklu]

As things stand, what alternative do they have to taking the DPSU's words at face value?

Yep, the services other than Navy are babes in the woods, we get it, yessir.

Just wondering, which Satan made Navy eat the fruit though.

[Victor]

Just wondering, which Satan made Navy eat the fruit though.

The same that refused to let IAF and Army take responsibility? It's not like they haven't asked.

[member_23461]

Yep, the services other than Navy are babes in the woods, we get it, yessir.

Just wondering, which Satan made Navy eat the fruit though.

The same satan that gave you the gas to assume, that you are the last word on the subject. Your armchair offers you the comforting warmth that makes you feel a little...whats the word...balooneey

[Sagar G]

Just wondering, which Satan made Navy eat the fruit though.

Well it's called VISION something which the IA/IAF HQ lacks. Not to worry the present GoI seems to be well placed to enforce that vision into them.

[Sagar G]

Indian scientists find a 'wonder herb' in the high Himalayas

In the high hostile peaks of the Himalayas where sustaining life is a challenge in itself, Indian scientists say they have found a "wonder herb" which can regulate the immune system, help adapt to the mountain environment and, above all, protect from radioactivity.

Rhodiola, a herb found in the cold and highland climate, has led India's leading scientists to wonder if it is the end to the quest for "Sanjeevani", the mythical herb that gave renewed life to Ram's brother Lakshman in the epic Ramayana.

Locally called 'Solo' in Ladakh, the qualities of Rhodiola were largely unknown so far. The leafy parts of the plant were used as vegetable by locals. However, research by the Leh-based Defence Institute of High Altitude Research (DIHAR) is exploring the therapeutic values of the herb that shows it can do wonders for the troops posted in difficult high altitude areas like the 5,400-metres-high Siachen glacier.

"Rhodiola is a wonder plant that has immunomodulatory (enhancing immune), adaptogenic (adapting to difficult climatic condition) and radio-protecting abilities due to presence of secondary metabolites and phytoactive compounds unique to the plant," R.B. Srivastava, Director, DIHAR, told IANS.

Srivastava said the herb can mitigate the effects of gamma radiation used in bombs in biochemical warfare.

"A concerted effort involving conservation, propagation and sustainable utilisation of this unique medicinal herb will surely result in rediscovery of Sanjeevani for the troops deployed in extreme climatic condition along Himalayan frontiers," said the director.

The Leh-based lab of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the world's highest agro-animal research laboratory, has been researching on this wonder plant for more than a decade.

"While its adaptogenic qualities can help the soldiers in adjusting to the low pressure-low oxygen environment, the plant has also been found to have anti-depressant and appetizer properties," said Srivastava.

In the barren glacier of Siachen where white is the only colour visible for miles, depression is a problem troops face. The high altitude and harsh climate also make them lose appetite.

DIHAR has already developed Herbal Adaptogenic Appetizer, and Herbal Adaptogenic Performance Enhancer that improves performance in extreme high altitude conditions, and has been highly appreciated by the Army.

Rhodiola is also found in other parts of the world with other countries like the US and China engaging in research on the wonder herb.

The plant has been used in traditional Chinese medicine to combat high-altitude sickness, while in Mongolia physicians prescribed it for tuberculosis and cancer.

Researchers in Russia studied its impact on athletes and later on cosmonauts.

Some other qualities the plant is found to be containing in studies across the world include fast recovery after heavy workout, memory enhancement, and cardiac stress reduction.

"Our research reveals its potential for anti-aging, tissue regeneration, protecting neurons during lack of oxygen, and cognitive improvement," said Sunil Hota, who is working on investigating medicinal properties of the plant at DIHAR.

O.P. Chaurasia, ethnobotanist with DIHAR for nearly two decades, told IANS that they have successfully established a field gene bank and Rhodiola plantation of nearly two acres in the premise of the laboratory.

"We are trying in-vitro propagation of the plant to increase its population," added Chaurasia.

[Victor]

DRDO's bio-toilets can help Swachh Bharat mission: Venkaiah Naidu

The NDA government was pushing the initiative in a bigger way than the previous government, he said. "This time we want to go in a big way .

Seriously, bio-toilets are desperately needed in the remote places where the Indian Army is stationed but I wish GoI had given the RFP "Design & Manufacture of Bio Toilet" to the private sector. Need to create a vast army on non-union workers is what we need to do.

[Indranil]

DRDO's bio-toilets can help Swachh Bharat mission: Venkaiah Naidu

The NDA government was pushing the initiative in a bigger way than the previous government, he said. "This time we want to go in a big way .

Seriously, bio-toilets are desperately needed in the remote places where the Indian Army is stationed but I wish GoI had given the RFP "Design & Create Bio Toilet" to the private sector. Need to create a vast army on non-union workers is what we need to do.

I am pretty sure that you also consider looking down on and demeaning the work of people even without looking at the product is down right wrong. But, your bias blinds your judgement.

anyways, the bio toilets has been accepted everywhere. By the Army, by the Indian Railways, by NGOs, and even healthcare organizations like WockHardt etc.

And by the way, you would be happy to know that by the middle of 2012, DRDO had already sold licenses to 49 private companies for the manufacture of these toilets.

[Sagar G]

^^^ That's nothing HAL compound doesn't even have toilets !!!! They do it in open like millions of Indian's even visiting foreign dignitaries are encouraged to join in, some of them have been overheard to find the experience "liberating".

[chetak]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/ch ... 57765.aspx

Dire need to speed up DRDO’s output

I don't know why Navy and DRDO have the least of issues - maybe it is because they are more engineering oriented ?

The Navy maintains dominant control both at the DRDO level and the DPSU level.

A vast majority of the Navy oriented DPSUs are Navy controlled via the top and mid level management staff either on deputation or permanently absorbed. Thus a engineering cultural fit and concept of "farm to fork", so to say, is ensured along with a no nonsense work culture that others are forced to follow.

Deadlines are Navy mandated and largely achieved. A majority of the meetings are Navy chaired and agenda is always Navy driven. Almost all project managers are uniformed Navy personnel answering only to Naval authorities.

Effective project management has always remained under very strong Navy control.

Eg, the Kaveri Gas turbine offshoot had a number of uniformed foreign trained (by the Navy) Naval officers with tailored PhDs, working hands on, to modify and deliver the marine version.

The Navy also quickly modified it's existing test facilities to accommodate the new engine instead of looking for a "foreign" partner to deliver the same at enormous cost.


And finally, the IN does not overly depend on DRDO controlled external inspection agencies which is another way the DRDO slyly maintains control. These external inspection agencies, having been successfully bypassed on a number of occasions, went crying to the MOD for arbitration and were over ruled every time. Now the very same agencies have fallen in line and are cooperating effectively instead of raising stupid objections aimed at maximizing personal benefits to their staff including sanctioning of numerous foreign trips at the Navy's cost to "study the technology and inspect manufacturing facilities and quality control" Somewhat like NaMo's mantra "cooperate gracefully and helpfully or be marginalized permanently"

This is how it was. It had somewhat unraveled during the cancerous rule of saint anthony, when DRDO big guns pulled wool over his saintly beady eyes and got themselves unjustified extensions of tenure

[srin]

Chetak-ji, so, another way of interpreting is that Navy too is having problems, but because it is involved, it really doesn't complain.

So, Scorpene is delayed for a long time, but MDL being run by ex-Navy rear admiral, it really won't complain. Or CSL doesn't have money for completion of INS Vikrant, but it isn't CSL issue but an MoD issue. And CSL chairman is an ex-commodore. Despite NPOL, we still need to import sonars, but don't hear too much noise about it.

So - my takeaway from this is that, giving services the operation control of DPSUs or having ex-officers run the shipyards really doesn't solve the core problem of delays. It only stops the gripes.

I'm not trying to be provocative here. There is a huge blame game on, and we don't hear the DRDO / DPSU perspectives in open source media and hence, tough questions need to be pondered over to understand what is really going on.

[RoyG]

What is going on is that there has hardly been any competition and no grand vision for defense industry from the top. This is changing now. Have an efficient biding process, strict rules, IB security clearance, relaxed labor laws, university research program reform based on competitive grant system, etc. and you'll see how quickly DRDO is going to turn DODO. Same goes for HAL, OFB, and other PSU's.

[NRao]

from the top

Is there a "top"?

[chetak]

Chetak-ji, so, another way of interpreting is that Navy too is having problems, but because it is involved, it really doesn't complain.

So, Scorpene is delayed for a long time, but MDL being run by ex-Navy rear admiral, it really won't complain. Or CSL doesn't have money for completion of INS Vikrant, but it isn't CSL issue but an MoD issue. And CSL chairman is an ex-commodore. Despite NPOL, we still need to import sonars, but don't hear too much noise about it.

So - my takeaway from this is that, giving services the operation control of DPSUs or having ex-officers run the shipyards really doesn't solve the core problem of delays. It only stops the gripes.

I'm not trying to be provocative here. There is a huge blame game on, and we don't hear the DRDO / DPSU perspectives in open source media and hence, tough questions need to be pondered over to understand what is really going on.

Your point is well taken.

No shortage of gripers in the Navy, sirjee. or even out of it. The harshest critics are all in white uniform or retired from the IN. In no other service would the Chief have ever quit for any reason.

Scorpene issue is a political issue not an engineering one. Properly funded and kicked off it should bloom. saint anthony delayed funding for the carrier among many other projects because termite queen wanted money for her elect rahul baba schemes err welfare schemes. The blasted dynasty even compromised national security and the minions willingly complied so that they could all continue to ride the gravy train.

So, as the fine ladies in hong kong say , "no money, no jig jig"

NPOL, IMVHO, seems to have reached the zenith of it's capabilities. It's first successful projects were spearheaded by Commader Paulraj. They coasted along for a very long while after he left. Imports should provide new "inspiration" for all

Once approved and funded, the IN generally brings the project home and that's the point that I was trying to make. The in house talent is encouraged, motivated and nurtured and the IN is way way far ahead on the indigenisation programs.

The IN is small, tightly knit and very highly technologically oriented, so much so, that due to the complexity of systems, the new intake of all officers henceforth is to comprise only of engineers from what one is hearing, well maybe not all, we still need doctors, of course.

[RoyG]

from the top

Is there a "top"?

government.

[Hobbes]

Chetak-ji, so, another way of interpreting is that Navy too is having problems, but because it is involved, it really doesn't complain.

So, Scorpene is delayed for a long time, but MDL being run by ex-Navy rear admiral, it really won't complain. Or CSL doesn't have money for completion of INS Vikrant, but it isn't CSL issue but an MoD issue. And CSL chairman is an ex-commodore. Despite NPOL, we still need to import sonars, but don't hear too much noise about it.

So - my takeaway from this is that, giving services the operation control of DPSUs or having ex-officers run the shipyards really doesn't solve the core problem of delays. It only stops the gripes.

I'm not trying to be provocative here. There is a huge blame game on, and we don't hear the DRDO / DPSU perspectives in open source media and hence, tough questions need to be pondered over to understand what is really going on.

Your point is well taken.

No shortage of gripers in the Navy, sirjee. or even out of it. The harshest critics are all in white uniform or retired from the IN. In no other service would the Chief have ever quit for any reason.

Scorpene issue is a political issue not an engineering one. Properly funded and kicked off it should bloom. saint anthony delayed funding for the carrier among many other projects because termite queen wanted money for her elect rahul baba schemes err welfare schemes. The blasted dynasty even compromised national security and the minions willingly complied so that they could all continue to ride the gravy train.

So, as the fine ladies in hong kong say , "no money, no jig jig"

Once approved and funded, the IN generally brings the project home and that's the point that I was trying to make. The in house talent is encouraged, motivated and nurtured and the IN is way way far ahead on the indigenisation programs.

The IN is small, tightly knit and very highly technologically oriented, so much so, that due to the complexity of systems, the new intake of all officers henceforth is to comprise only of engineers from what one is hearing, well maybe not all, we still need doctors, of course.

Good post. However, it does not explain the giant time overruns on the surface warship projects, with Indian built vessels taking up to twice the time or more foreign yards/ navies take to build and commission warships. An area where the Navy has not stepped up to take ownership is conventional submarines, where we're still reliant on foreign technology. In the overall perspective of the Navy's otherwise successful adoption of the builder's role, this sticks out like a sore thumb. And lastly, let us not forget the Vikramaditya, a telling example of their failure in surveying, estimation and project management.

[Sid]

Good post. However, it does not explain the giant time overruns on the surface warship projects, with Indian built vessels taking up to twice the time or more foreign yards/ navies take to build and commission warships. An area where the Navy has not stepped up to take ownership is conventional submarines, where we're still reliant on foreign technology. In the overall perspective of the Navy's otherwise successful adoption of the builder's role, this sticks out like a sore thumb. And lastly, let us not forget the Vikramaditya, a telling example of their failure in surveying, estimation and project management.

Most of the IN surface ships are launched in time, but their outfitting and integration of systems imported from different sources takes bulf of the time. Their rust in the shipyard for next 4 to 8 years waiting for all subsystems to arrive.

INS Kolkata D 63
Laid down - 27 September 2003
Launched - 30 March 2006
Commissioning - 16 August 2014

Similarly, P 28 ( INS Kamorta)
Laid down - 20 November 2006
Launched - 19 April 2010
Commissioning - 12 July 2014

[Austin]

Launching the ship is the most easiest thing to do what comes after words is where the complexity comes , PSU SY are quite good at the former after that its mostly time and cost overruns. The project itself has to be revised with CCS giving multiple cost revisions.

[member_22539]

^I once read that these delays are often caused by delays in the ordering of components or subsystems, due to either a phased approach in procurement (with all the components not ordered up front at the start of the project) as well as delays in sanctioning funding for the same. Any truth to this? Are the DPSUs forced to delay purchase of components?

[chetak]

{quote="srin"}Chetak-ji, so, another way of interpreting is that Navy too is having problems, but because it is involved, it really doesn't complain.

So, Scorpene is delayed for a long time, but MDL being run by ex-Navy rear admiral, it really won't complain. Or CSL doesn't have money for completion of INS Vikrant, but it isn't CSL issue but an MoD issue. And CSL chairman is an ex-commodore. Despite NPOL, we still need to import sonars, but don't hear too much noise about it.

So - my takeaway from this is that, giving services the operation control of DPSUs or having ex-officers run the shipyards really doesn't solve the core problem of delays. It only stops the gripes.

I'm not trying to be provocative here. There is a huge blame game on, and we don't hear the DRDO / DPSU perspectives in open source media and hence, tough questions need to be pondered over to understand what is really going on.{/quote}

Your point is well taken.

No shortage of gripers in the Navy, sirjee. or even out of it. The harshest critics are all in white uniform or retired from the IN. In no other service would the Chief have ever quit for any reason.

Scorpene issue is a political issue not an engineering one. Properly funded and kicked off it should bloom. saint anthony delayed funding for the carrier among many other projects because termite queen wanted money for her elect rahul baba schemes err welfare schemes. The blasted dynasty even compromised national security and the minions willingly complied so that they could all continue to ride the gravy train.

So, as the fine ladies in hong kong say , "no money, no jig jig"

Once approved and funded, the IN generally brings the project home and that's the point that I was trying to make. The in house talent is encouraged, motivated and nurtured and the IN is way way far ahead on the indigenisation programs.

The IN is small, tightly knit and very highly technologically oriented, so much so, that due to the complexity of systems, the new intake of all officers henceforth is to comprise only of engineers from what one is hearing, well maybe not all, we still need doctors, of course.

Good post. However, it does not explain the giant time overruns on the surface warship projects, with Indian built vessels taking up to twice the time or more foreign yards/ navies take to build and commission warships. An area where the Navy has not stepped up to take ownership is conventional submarines, where we're still reliant on foreign technology. In the overall perspective of the Navy's otherwise successful adoption of the builder's role, this sticks out like a sore thumb. And lastly, let us not forget the Vikramaditya, a telling example of their failure in surveying, estimation and project management.

There are severe productivity issues with Indian PSU labor.

Many studies have been done to explain this, specially with regard to shipyard labor. Even in the Naval dockyards, they are heavily unionized and militant.

Overtime costs are horrendous and that is routinely paid to keep the peace.

Vikramadtiya was a complete snafu with the Navy relying totally on rusky estimates and thinking that the ruskies would deliver for old times sake.

The ruskies took us for a royal ride and just did not have the capabilities to refit the carrier. It should have been towed to it's original builder's yard and work done there but since that was in another country, the ruskies objected violently.

The ruskies practically built a new yard to do the work and benefited enormously from it, leaving us all to wonder if that was not the original hardnosed intent of the sale and refit contract.

The navy simply missed all the signs or chose to naively overlook it in the interest of good relations and foolishly banked on goodwill. They have learned a terrible lesson and the repercussions will live on for years to come. the Vik will be difficult to run and maintain because it's a "one off".

The Vizag shipyard is getting on with the very much delayed kilo refit and that will hopefully bear fruit in the near future, bringing another much needed boat into service.

What you say is mostly true but a lot of effort has always gone into the Naval projects and by and large, they have been more successful that many other projects.


edit, added later

There is no clarity on the govt policy on submarine building and it's associated infrastructure. This is a hot potato that no one is willing to touch. Hence the apparent "hands off" approach is the best way to avoid any career busting vigilance inquiries.

[chetak]

^I once read that these delays are often caused by delays in the ordering of components or subsystems, due to either a phased approach in procurement (with all the components not ordered up front at the start of the project) as well as delays in sanctioning funding for the same. Any truth to this? Are the DPSUs forced to delay purchase of components?

The supply chain linkages of the erstwhile soviet union is now a frightening mess.

Delays are because of the supply chain linkages that now run across multiple old soviet era countries. Many companies in these new countries have changed their product lines and can no longer be identified as the source of some components.

Some have changed product lines officially but many have simply done so unofficially with no remaining trace of their original identities.

Some you can track down but many you cannot. That is the reason for the spares, components and subsystems mess.

[srai]

^I once read that these delays are often caused by delays in the ordering of components or subsystems, due to either a phased approach in procurement (with all the components not ordered up front at the start of the project) as well as delays in sanctioning funding for the same. Any truth to this? Are the DPSUs forced to delay purchase of components?

The supply chain linkages of the erstwhile soviet union is now a frightening mess.

Delays are because of the supply chain linkages that now run across multiple old soviet era countries. Many companies in these new countries have changed their product lines and can no longer be identified as the source of some components.

Some have changed product lines officially but many have simply done so unofficially with no remaining trace of their original identities.

Some you can track down but many you cannot. That is the reason for the spares, components and subsystems mess.

This is the reason the IAF's preference for TOT is more along the lines of acquiring local spare parts production for the 30-40 years an aircraft is in service. It is less about acquiring new technologies to build national capability per se. That is where DRDO is needed to define and negotiate on additional TOTs that are deemed essential for building national capability.