Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

[Karan M]

Spend some more time on the forum and track acquisitions more closely and you will see the hatred is justified. These crooks almost brought India to its knees by deliberately refusing to take action on critical national security issues.

[ravip]

Spend some more time on the forum and track acquisitions more closely and you will see the hatred is justified. These crooks almost brought India to its knees by deliberately refusing to take action on critical national security issues.

I have been reading the posts on d forum for last 7yrs and i have joined d forum only recently but i have formed my opinion after reading posts from respected forum members like vina or sssalvi and some others who were in d system and also opinions expressed by Lt gen like katoch or panag on some other media...anyway I will choose to criticise than develop hatred bcoz most of d time opinions are mobilized bcoz of exaggeration by ddm.

[Karan M]

I see, so it was "DDM" responsible for almost complete lack of proper munitions and the witch hunt of the IA chief for telling the reality, the lack of critical ADM like Barak, the lack of focus shown for any critical programs like Arty, the shameful lack of any leadership during 26/11 & thereafter... none can wake up those who wish to willfully remain blind.

[Philip]

The neglect of Indian security,especially in the timely acquisition of critically needed defence eqpt.,both firang and indigenous is now a historical fact.For several years our defence services have torn the hair out of their heads at the indifference and deliberate dereliction of duty by the AKA stewardship of the defence ministry.sabotaging India's defence industry at home and reducing its strike capability was a goal of a certain superpower which wanted India to be unable to act decisively against a weakened Pak,that had launched a continuous proxy war of terror against India, because of its Afghan policy,where it greatly depended upon Pak as a transit route for mil/logistic/fuel supplies (apart from bases for UCAVs,ISI support,etc.) to support its war on terror in the region. India had to be neutered militarily and diplomatically,drawn into the Yanqui with a Quisling like MMS,over eager to oblige.

26 years without new arty.,subs falling apart,aircraft ready to be pensioned off in their hundreds without any sign of new replacements,ammo stocks so depleted that we are unable to fight a war for more than a couple of weeks,warships commissioned without their air defence missiles,acute shortage of minesweepers,and the acquisition in indecent haste of non-critical def. wares from the US to stroke US defence manufacturers.These facts cannot be simply brushed aside as "hatred" by any of us.The most damaging dereliction of duty was the complete dropping of guard against China.The total neglect of the border infrastructure for a decade,during which time China massively expanded its Tibetan infrastructure,where it now plans a raliway/pipeline though POK territory too.China was so emboldened by the impotence of the MMS regime,that apart from annexing Indian territory on the border by stealth,it started issuing chit visas to Indian citizens living in Ar.Pradesh and J&K!

Since this is the naval td. I won't elaborate further,but these above facts are too well known to be discussed here.Let's look at what has happened to the IOR during the last decade. For over two decades I've been warning everyone about the Chinese creep into Sri Lanka,followed by their Paki catamite.We were once offered Trinco for mil. use.asininely we dawdled and the offer was withdrawn once the Lankans had improved their mil. situ against the LTTE.We were first offered the Hambantota project.Dawdled.China eagerly stepped in,establishing Lanka as a key "pearl" in its chain in the IOR "maritime highway".Lanka desperately wanted mil. eqpt. from India.Dawdled yet again! Who supplied the Lankans? Pakistan and China.A similar dereliction of diplomatic suty has happened in the Maldives,where shockingly GMR was thrown out of the airport project and it was given to China.A slap in the face of India! All this has happened during the shameful MMS regime where AKA has his massive share of the blame.I've also warned people 2 years ago about the huge Chinese move into Mauritius.

Here is a report about China's plans to neutralise US naval superiority with its missiles. If these are its plans for the USN ,the same could hold good to counter the IN and its CBGs too.

http://www.maritime-executive.com/artic ... 2014-09-25

September 25, 2014
Naval Supremacy: The Elephant at Sea

By MarEx

Op-Ed by Jasen Sagman

For over sixty years the American aircraft carrier has dominated the Pacific Ocean. China’s vast new array of missiles seeks to turn the tide.

Naval supremacy is one of the oldest forms of projecting national power. For millennia, the ability to operate well beyond a country’s coastal waters has provided nations with unmatched security. Aircraft carriers multiply naval supremacy exponentially, providing a navy with floating bases, thereby relinquishing any dependence on other governments or local bases. Both practically and symbolically, the aircraft carrier has been central to American power projection over the six decades during which it has dominated the Pacific – but it is those same vessels that are now under threat from China’s vast new array of missiles.

Throughout the history of carrier aviation, it has been said that the first thing a president asks during times of crisis is: “Where is the nearest aircraft carrier?” The U.S. has had a naval presence, including aircraft carriers, in the northwestern Pacific Ocean for over half a century. Beginning with the defeat of Japan in World War II, the U.S. Navy has treated these waters as their own. It has used its unmatched naval power to implement a rules-based international system oriented toward the promotion and preservation of free trade, freedom of navigation, and the democratic rule of law. This dominance was accelerated in 1972 when the U.S. endorsed China’s return to the family of nations, thereby implicitly leading to China’s acceptance of American military dominance in Asia.

While there have always been Chinese antagonists to American naval dominance in the Pacific, one would find it difficult to argue that American dominance in the region has not led to the most stable and prosperous period of China’s modern history. That said, many proponents of China’s imperial ambitions assert that America’s role in the Pacific is crumbling, as China vows to recast its historic military and political might in the region.

Today, China is especially concerned with the security of its seaborne commerce in the area it calls the Near Seas – the coastal waters that include the Yellow, East China, and South China Seas. As such, China is beginning to implement a strategy to exert increased control over the Near Seas, pushing the U.S. Navy farther and farther east. In doing so, China is launching a profound challenge to the U.S.-led order that has been the backbone of China’s own modern economic success.

American military strategists assert that for the past 20 years China has been expanding its military with a keen focus on investments in its “anti-navy” – a series of warships, silent submarines, and precision missiles specifically designed to prevent the U.S. Navy from operating in large areas in the northwestern Pacific Ocean. As Dennis Blair, a retired U.S. Navy admiral who was the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific region states: “Ninety per cent of [China’s] time is spent on thinking about new and interesting ways to sink our ships and shoot down our planes.”

Some observers believe China wants its naval capabilities to perform as an anti-access/area-denial (A2/AD) force—a force that can deter U.S. intervention in a conflict in China’s Near Seas region, or at a minimum reduce the effectiveness of intervening U.S. forces. That having been said, China currently does not possess a fully operational aircraft carrier – though it is expected to have one in service by 2015.

The U.S. Pacific Fleet, on the other hand, is the world’s largest fleet command, encompassing 160 million square kilometres and consisting of approximately 200 vessels. Of these, two are aircraft carriers.

The U.S. has not lost an aircraft carrier since the Japanese sank the USS Hornet during the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands in 1942. Today, the mere thought of an aircraft carrier being vulnerable could be enough to restrict its use, as the loss of a carrier would be an unfathomable psychological defeat to American naval prestige and credibility – akin to a Pearl Harbor or 9/11. These sentiments are beginning to be realized in the Pentagon, as a new concept of fighting wars at sea is taking shape.

AirSea Battle, inspired by the AirLand Battle concept, is an integrated battle doctrine that officially became part of U.S. grand strategy in February 2010. The purpose of this doctrine is to shape U.S. military power in such a way as to better address asymmetrical threats in the northwestern Pacific and Persian Gulf – in other words, China and Iran.

By weakening the U.S. Navy’s presence in the Pacific, China hopes to undermine America’s alliances with other Asian countries, thereby reshaping the balance of power in the region. If U.S. influence does indeed decline, China would be in a position to quietly assume a leadership position in Asia, giving it much greater sway over the rules and practices in the global economy. The future of global security hinges on the floating of two vessels in the Pacific, for if one American aircraft carrier were to be sunk, the balance of power would be dramatically altered.

Jasen Sagman is a Junior Research Fellow at the NATO Council of Canada where he writes as part of the Maritime Nation Program. Currently pursuing a Master of Arts in Global Diplomacy from the University of London, SOAS, he also holds an Honours Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from the University of Toronto. He has previously researched for the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs and the Chair of Canada’s House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

[ravip]

I see, so it was "DDM" responsible for almost complete lack of munitions and the witch hunt of the IA chief for telling the reality, the lack of critical ADM like Barak, the lack of focus shown for any critical programs like Arty, the shameful lack of any leadership during 26/11 & thereafter... none can wake up those who wish to willfully remain blind.

Who is stopping any one from criticising any one, the point being such criticism has been taken for a level of hatred by repeated name calling and racist comments. For every lack of desicion I will give you a decision which was in favour of national interest.
Let's get on to specifics which you have mentioned lack of munition's: consider d following did dis problem arose only wen Antony became the def min, was it not der wen nda(quoting dis party bcoz among other parties it is d most patriotic party) was in power
Why should blame lie only wid politicians, who is gonna tie the bell to PSU army and bureaucratic institutions. didn't pinaka production start during Antony regime didn't he buy pgms from us etc der r many i can't list everything if he had intentions to commite treason why would he agument weapons of dis kind.

Witch hunt of v k singh ...v k Singh was victim by army as an institution rather by MOD, who fixed d line of succession in d army, was it gen j j Singh or Antony...yes I accept he could have corrected it but you know wat SC held...do u allege even SC was innovled??? Vk Singh revelations on munition we're much later and after court had delivered its judgement... How so ever right I may be but has to accept the SC order...so where does d question of witch hunt arises...why did the veterans were divided over v k Singh issue why didn't dey back him in one voice...even I am an adherent supporter of vk Singh even I thought Antony should have gone out of d way in accepting dob of vk, but you know wen last time it was tried by govt the senior most lt gen threatened the gov of blood bath by sgp* in punjab if he is by passed for chief post.

Barak issue was under CBI investigation and was very recently the CBI gave a clean chit so der was order placed by modi gov, no govt will dare to order from a company which is under CBI investigation, in comparison can modi use vvip choppers?? can you allege he is committing treason for not using dem!!!

Arty is in shambles for 3 decades at least Antony was not d only defence minister for all dese years.don't forget who sanctioned dhanush and who is objecting for its induction, don't forget bicharge modular factory at nalanda, if he was working against d interest of d country den why did he allowed it to open.

Lastly coming to 26/11...if we can believe ddm for reporting on dis....it was very clear d Italian madam Antony and chidu we're very much for punishing the Paki's but wen asked d military leadership abt response only air force was willing to strike and army and navy sought time for preparations.... In d mean time pranab pulled d pulg and back tracked....so who is committing treason....so who didn't show leadership.....

I am no fan of antony, but der should be sum refrain from members wen at least he is no longer in desicion making position bcoz it is meaning less to continue to do so & nothing could be achieved by it.

d basic point here is it is one thing to criticise and question him on issue based but dragging his name even wen it is not necessary is nothing but hatred of nth level and I also know it will take time to change such perception and I am sure they will realise der mistake wen dey get to know d reality. The other reason to reply is it has become sum sought of joke to bash Antony or madam....wen one doesn't find d factual reason foe d problem dey start der punching bag exercise. On a lighter note through such hatred posts one spew more venom on Antony and madam dan on dawood or Hafiz sadeed. So according to me it all comes one point der should a line of difference BTW hatred and issued base criticism.

last post on dis sorry for replying at dis length

Jai hind

[Philip]

The speed with which the new dispensation addressed the crisis affecting our frontline warships,totally vulnerable to air and missile attack without anti-missile defences,by ordering Barak missiles urgently required,speaks for itself.It indicates a deep concern for national security and a keen intellect,swift decision making when called for.That is what the nation expects from its govt.Compare this with the dereliction of duty by the saintly one and his "Madonna of Maino" for a whole decade,with indecision and indifference,deliberate and otherwise,that affected the battleworthiness of the armed forces all across the board.That too at a time in the last lost decade,when the economy was in good shape until the contradictions and self-interest of the UPA and its leaders triumphed over the national interest and brought the economy to its knees and the "house of cards" collapsing.And they criticise Krishna Menon.He was a saint in comparison with the last lot of jokers and quislings!

[Karan M]

RaviP what a long incoherent ramble and apologia without any clear answer and that too in SMS speak. Do you think this is some pub occupied by some teenagers who cannot bear to hear properly structured sentences?
The ammunition imbroglio was exacerbated during the UPA regime, and that you can't even admit it, and dismiss criticisms as racist only goes to show you are not able to think without blinkers on. As regards arty, please don't make me laugh. The man couldn't even get a single program cleared in sufficient quantity. 144 Dhanush is an eyewash. Tanks ran without ammo. He did nothing to speed track either local programs or get any replacements of the best kind in. The fellow mumbled his way through even a Pak attack on our soldiers and recanted only when caught out by the oppn. As if he could take credit for long running programs like Pinaka etc which were launched much before he came into power and will continue without him as well. What prevented him from getting spares for Mirage 2000s or batteries for Submarines cleared? The joke of a CBI enquiry stopped procurements you say, well these enquiries were asked for by mr clean clothes himself at the smallest pretext, national security be darned. VK Singhs issue, the Naval Chiefs resignation, the buck clearly stops at Anthony who was a Nero while Rome burned. Of course folks like you will continue to spin away in order to defend his antics but the rest of us aren't buying it. What a hilarious reply you quote about 26/11 as well. First starve the forces of equipment and supplies, then blame them for not being ready. With claims like yours, devoid of reason.. No wonder Antony escaped censure.

[chetak]

I get the distinct feeling that someone may posting under a new name

[dnivas]

I get the distinct feeling that someone may posting under a new name

Not sure though coz somehow his "t" key seems be to be broke and he talks in terms of "dis that and dis this" .

I don't think I have seen this before.

Ravip when every file from the PMO is going to Sonia Gandu's house, don't you think the same was happening with the def min as well.

[hanumadu]

Boss ravip, You are not posting an IM or a tweet. There is no limitation on the number of characters to post. Furthermore, BRF is a formal discussion forum. Can you stick to proper english with punctuation?

[Philip]

Intriguing possibilities as a future fuel.Seawater.
http://www.maritime-executive.com/artic ... 2014-09-27

September 27, 2014
Seawater: Fuel for the Fleet

By MarEx
Op-Ed by Alix Willemez

The US Navy recently announced that it successfully converted sea water into fuel and that it used it to fly a model plane. The aim of this technology is, of course, to give ships a self-sustaining power source and to make the Navy less dependent on fuel imports.

US Navy Vice Admiral Philip Cullom, declared the project to be “a huge milestone for us. What is just absolutely revolutionary about [this technology] is that, if you no longer have to worry about where that oiler is, you remove so much of the vulnerability that we have at sea.”

According to the Department of Defense, the ability to harness this new technology would allow ships to always be operational and eliminate the need to refuel at sea.

Indeed, it would prove very helpful in time of conflict: the vessel would not spend time away from the mission by returning to land to re-fuel, which is particularly helpful when surrounded by hostile forces. Furthermore, fuel supplies constitute a good target during conflicts.

Turning sea water into fuel: how does it work?

Seawater is a very attractive energy source, since it contains much higher concentrations of CO2 than air. And, obviously, it is very abundant. The new technology developed by the Navy uses a gas-to-liquid process, which at the same time recovers carbon dioxide (CO2) from seawater and concomitantly produces hydrogen (H2), the building blocks of hydrocarbons.

Dr. Heather Willauer, a research chemist at the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL), explains the chemical process: “Using an innovative and proprietary NRL electrolytic cation exchange module (E-CEM), both dissolved and bound CO2 are removed from seawater at 92 percent efficiency by re-equilibrating carbonate and bicarbonate to CO2 and simultaneously producing H2. The gases are then converted to liquid hydrocarbons by a metal catalyst in a reactor system.” First, the CO2 and H2 are converted into unsaturated hydrocarbon starter molecules called olefins using an iron-based catalyst. Next, these olefins are converted into a liquid containing larger hydrocarbon molecules with a carbon range suitable for use in jet engines by polymerization.

While the Navy successfully tested this new technique on a model aircraft, it will require time and an enormous investment from the American government before the Navy is able to solely use salt water as fuel. Regardless, Dr. Willauer is very optimistic: “This is the first time technology of this nature has been demonstrated with the potential for transition, from the laboratory, to full-scale commercial implementation.” According to her, this technology could potentially produce jet fuel which may only cost approximately three to six dollars per gallon.

Furthermore, the team claims that its technology removes CO2 at 92 percent efficiency, which is far superior to previously developed techniques for CO2 recovery from seawater. It also declared that it can convert about 60 percent of the extracted gases into hydrocarbons which can then be processed into jet fuel.

Fossil fuels are currently the only obvious energy source capable of powering the system. However, coupling this system with a renewable energy source that drives CO2 recovery could potentially allow this process to be very sustainable in the long-term.

More dead seas tomorrow?

For the moment, companies are more interested in desalinating sea water for use as drinking water rather than using it as a fuel source. However, current desalination techniques use a huge amount of energy. Indeed, energy consumption can account for up to 70 percent of the desalination costs. This is almost incredible: the global production of desalinated water uses approximately 75.2 terawatt-hours (1012 watts) of electricity per year, which is enough to power about 7 million homes.

This is the reason why GE and Aramco Entrepreneurship have just launched an open global technology challenge aiming at finding solutions to improve the energy efficiency of seawater desalination. This $200,000 challenge will be awarded to four winners with a prize of $50,000 each, and the two companies may invest towards commercialization of the best ideas.

The Director of Aramco Entrepreneurship, Nabil Al-Khowaiter, explains that “finding a more efficient method of desalinating seawater will be a game-changer in our collective pursuit of a more sustainable energy future across the globe. Due to increased water scarcity, countries around the world are poised to rely more and more heavily on desalination as a means to provide fresh water. Aramco Entrepreneurship is partnering with GE not only to identify new solutions to lowering desalination costs, but also to invest in and attract new technologies and industries to Saudi Arabia.”

Beijing supplied by seawater in 2019?

Saudi Arabia is not the only country interested in desalinated sea water. Wang Xiaoshui, desalination department director at Beijing Enterprises Water Group announced that desalinated seawater will supply domestic tap water of a third of Beijing’s inhabitants from 2019.

In 2013, the Chinese company researched and developed its own reverse osmosis membrane technique. Beijing Enterprises Water Group had already started desalinating seawater in March 2012 and it transported 50,000 tons of freshwater from the coastal city of Caofeidian to Beijing and Tianjin. The group has a 1-million-ton desalination project under construction in Caofeidian, in the district of Tangshan in the Hebei Province. Liu Fushun, Deputy General Manager, declared that this project is to be completed by 2019.

Ma Jun, director of the Institute of Public & Environmental Affairs in Beijing, explains that the Chinese capital has suffered from droughts since 1999. Desalination can help relieve the water, but he warns that this process can also cause pollution. “In the long term, the eventual solution is to save and recycle used water at the consumer end,” he said.

Sea water for cooling buildings
Sea water is already popular in the South Pacific where it is used for cooling buildings.

In French Polynesia, the InterContinental Hotel in Bora Bora is, since 2006, the first private building to be cooled entirely with Sea Water Air Conditioning (SWAC). This system uses deep cold seawater that replaces the energy-intensive central refrigeration systems which chilled water to provide air conditioning in buildings.

This system has now become very popular in Hawaii. Jan War, Operation Manager at the Natural Energy Laboratory of Hawaii Authority, declares that SWAC is “an underutilized technology. Because of the cost of fossil fuels, more and more people are realizing they have a resource underneath their feet.”

Several large municipalities, including Toronto and Stockholm, also switched from traditional cooling systems to seawater systems.

So, might sea water really be the energy of the future?

Alix is a writer, researcher, and correspondent on the Asia-Pacific region for Marine Renewable Energy LTD. She previously served as a maritime policy advisor to the New Zealand Consul General in New Caledonia and as the French Navy’s Deputy Bureau Chief for State Action at Sea, New Caledonia Maritime Zone.

[Philip]

.

[NRao]

^^^^^

Navy's future: Electric guns, lasers, water as fuel

[Surya]

every fancy weapon starts off with 1 \10th etc of the cost of the previous weapon etc etc

never seems to happen by the time they are ordered

[GeorgeWelch]

Intriguing possibilities as a future fuel.Seawater.

In case it isn't clear from the article, this isn't about generating energy, it's about transferring energy from one form (nuclear) to another (hydrocarbon).

It's basically a way for nuke carriers to generate their own aviation fuel so they don't have to rely on oilers for that.

Theoretically it may also be possible to generate fuel for their escorts, but that would require an impractically large amount of energy, even for a nuke carrier.

[arijitkm]

India’s navy: strong on aircraft carriers, short of submarines. Ajai Shukla

[Aditya G]

^ An interesting article - which explains the naval doctrine in simple terms. Timely too, as the surface Navy's big ticket acquisitions are complete or in advanced stage (Projects 15A, 17, 28 and Vikramaditya).

Given its Mahanian outlook and superior surface fleet, the Indian Navy would, in any future war with Pakistan, seek sea control over the northern Arabian Sea by sending one, or even two, CBGs to destroy or degrade Pakistan’s surface fleet. With that done, the attack would shift to coastal installations and to supporting the land battle through amphibious landings

...

Yet, sea control must go hand-in-hand with sea denial. While CBGs seek battle with Pakistan’s navy, Indian submarines would cut oil supplies and war material from Pakistan’s West Asian allies; and bottle up shipping in Karachi, Gwadar and the new naval base at Ormara. For this, Indian submarines would lurk outside this ports, while also deploying in the Gulf of Aden and the Strait of Hormuz.

...

In establishing sea control across the northern Arabian Sea, the Indian Navy would fight a tricky battle in coastal waters against the Pakistan Navy. The latter, outnumbered and outgunned, knows it would get quickly wiped out on the open seas. It is likely, therefore, to withdraw close to the Pakistan coast where the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) would provide it air cover.

To close in with this fleet, India’s CBGs must have the air defence capability to beat off the PAF. Key to this would be the MiG-29K fighter, flying from aircraft carriers; and air defence systems like the Barak, and the much-awaited new Long Range Surface to Air Missile.

My own layman comments:

- Arabian sea is very well suited for warfare by SSKs.

- The role of IN's capital warships, especially aircraft carriers, will be restricted in any naval clash with Pakistan unless we neutralize the threat from PN's conventional submarines first.

- Pakistan will target our offshore oil installations early on in the conflict. Navy will have to devote resources towards an air defence and ASW bubble around these installations. PN submarines can even target those in the bay of bengal.

- Akula will be deployed off to check PLAN. Possibly joined by Vikramaditya.

- Rather have IAF Jaguars and Su-30s target PN in the initial days, instead of risking an aircraft carrier.

[Philip]

X-posted from the China td.

The Zhongnanhai clique will be very careful not to repeat a TAM Sq. massacre.The HK democracy supporters are leaderless.It is a spontaneous mass uprising against the imposition of a Beijing puppet as HK boss,but with little idea how to proceed further.Civil disobedience Gandhian style is the manner in which they should continue the protests on a daily basis.They should paralyse different parts of HK keeping Beijing guessing.Beijing has already warned outside powers not to interfere.The same way we should also ask it to stop interfering in our backyard as this post indicates that it is looking for naval bases in the IOR.

PLA wants naval bases in Indian Ocean: Yomiuri Shimbun
Staff Reporter 2014-09-30
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 0930000108

Quote:
The 039 Song-class diesel-electric submarine anchors at Colombo port. (Internet photo)

After a Chinese submarine and warships visited Sri Lanka, Iran and Pakistan, the Tokyo-based Yomiuri Shimbun on Sept. 27 reported that the People's Liberation Army Navy is seeking to construct naval ports in the Indian Ocean to monitor the movements of the Indian Navy.

Between Sept. 7-14, a Type 039 Song-class diesel-electric submarine anchored at Colombo in Sri Lanka to take on supplies. It is the first time a Chinese submarine has been sent publicly to a port near the Indian Ocean. The visit of Chinese president Xi Jinping to Sri Lanka after the submarine appeared also indicated that Beijing is strengthening its partnership with Sri Lanka. After its stay at Colmbo, the submarine moved on to the Gulf of Aden, according to the PLA Navy.

The Changchun, a Type 052C guided-missile destroyer, and the Changzhou, a Type 054A guided-missile frigate, also launched joint naval exercises with the Iranian and Pakistan navies during their visit to Bandar Abbas and Karachi. Those drills indicated that China is trying to expand its influence into the region through transforming the PLA Navy into a genuine blue-water navy.

The paper said that China is discussing maritime cooperation with the Seychelles, Mauritius, the Maldives, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Cambodia. Admiral Robin K Dhowan, India's chief of naval staff, said China is apparently seeking allies to encircle India. Dhowan said that the Indian navy will pay close attention to Chinese expansion in the region. If China begins to increase its naval activities in the Indian Ocean, it is likely to become a serious challenge to India, Dhowan said.

India should accelerate its naval cooperation with Vietnam asap,deliver BMos missiles and other missiles and mil. eqpt. in its arsenal to the Vietnamese.We can build a number of naval /CG vessels for the Vietnamese using out pvt. yards which can build to the designs of the IN,thereby ensuring prompt delivery! It can also engage the Phillipines too in similar fashion apart from other threatened ASEAN nations.

It is most unfortunate but China has et a course of confrontation with India which in all probability result in a military conflict at some time in the future unless the GOI shores up India's defence and strike capability,both nuclear and non-nuclear ,which would make it exceptionally difficult and painful for China to embark upon.

[SaiK]

^^quite scary to consider our depleeting sub fleet numbers

[Niranjan]

Those nations that are willing to host the PLAN should have to pay a huge price. china will respond to such a move, but it has to be done.


The statement of the chinese prez, on Indian soil, that they intend moving ahead with S. Asia, was a give away.

India is not in their plan. And India has to react to that.

[uddu]

Indian Navy is no match to the PLAN in terms of numbers. The Chinese can bring in a lot of ships. I Cant figure out when our shipbuilding with 3 nos is going to end and a major order for 12 ships at a time is given a go.

[Aditya G]

Indian Navy is no match to the PLAN in terms of numbers. The Chinese can bring in a lot of ships.

How many ships can PLAN deploy to IOR? 20, 30, 40? IN is not going to wait for them to filter in thru malacca and other ingress points. There are gaps in the navy's force level, but it does not mean we are at total disadvantage.

[chetak]

Indian Navy is no match to the PLAN in terms of numbers. The Chinese can bring in a lot of ships.

How many ships can PLAN deploy to IOR? 20, 30, 40? IN is not going to wait for them to filter in thru malacca and other ingress points. There are gaps in the navy's force level, but it does not mean we are at total disadvantage.

our forward bases in the andamans will cover the straits well enough.

Also, our aircraft there are not mere paper weights onlee

Any sinking in the straits may effectively block it, sending the price of oil skyrocketing and that the chini do not want. Our oil supply does not depend so much on those straits.

[SNaik]

Indian Navy is no match to the PLAN in terms of numbers. The Chinese can bring in a lot of ships.

How many ships can PLAN deploy to IOR? 20, 30, 40? IN is not going to wait for them to filter in thru malacca and other ingress points. There are gaps in the navy's force level, but it does not mean we are at total disadvantage.

With the numbers of AORs churned out every year, they'll soon be able to send a fleet around 'Stralia

[merlin]

How many ships can PLAN deploy to IOR? 20, 30, 40? IN is not going to wait for them to filter in thru malacca and other ingress points. There are gaps in the navy's force level, but it does not mean we are at total disadvantage.

our forward bases in the andamans will cover the straits well enough.

Also, our aircraft there are not mere paper weights onlee

Any sinking in the straits may effectively block it, sending the price of oil skyrocketing and that the chini do not want. Our oil supply does not depend so much on those straits.[/quote]

I think that oil argument is way overdone now. China is building/has built huge petroleum reserves and as such it doesn't need the steady supply of oil in a conflict which is expected to last a few months at most, if that. So they won't have a problem if we interdict their oil rules or even their other sea supply routes.

[chetak]

How many ships can PLAN deploy to IOR? 20, 30, 40? IN is not going to wait for them to filter in thru malacca and other ingress points. There are gaps in the navy's force level, but it does not mean we are at total disadvantage.

our forward bases in the andamans will cover the straits well enough.

Also, our aircraft there are not mere paper weights onlee

Any sinking in the straits may effectively block it, sending the price of oil skyrocketing and that the chini do not want. Our oil supply does not depend so much on those straits.

I think that oil argument is way overdone now. China is building/has built huge petroleum reserves and as such it doesn't need the steady supply of oil in a conflict which is expected to last a few months at most, if that. So they won't have a problem if we interdict their oil rules or even their other sea supply routes.[/quote]

Sirjee,

Not talking about the strategic reserves that china has, as we ourselves do, on a more modest scale.

The cost of crude will skyrocket upsetting the world's economy and cause untold mayhem if big boys like china start doing the warrior lungi dance.

Within a short while, amrika and russi will have to take sides for H&D reasons and then the fat's truly in the fire.

[uddu]

We targetting the PLAN from Andaman is correct if there is already a war and PLAN is going to enter IOR.
What if prior to any confrontation, the PLAN send a large taskforce of around 50 ships and around 20 submarines into the Indian Ocean.
Will we attack the flotilla which will pass through the Malacca strait without any provocation? I dont think we will ever do such a thing.
What if the ships get berthed in and around India for a longer period of time at places like Gwadar and Hambantota.
Then the PLA and PLAAF attacks from the north and PLAN from the south from different directions. Lets say even some places with single ships? At the same time more ships attacks A&N island chain.
How can IN counter these large numbers at different places?
Again it all depends on the Naval air arm and IAF
Add to that more Paki Jihadis with their limited number of ships joining.
Also add to that any friendly nation of the CCP joining (less likely, but what if its some European Paki nation with hatred for Indians?)
Dont you guys now think that we need to have more ships and subs to counter the PLAN?

[member_20292]

We have a very large aircraft carrier. It's called the INS "Southern Indian Peninsula". This is where we base a lot of missiles and aircraft.

Our missiles are accurate. How accurate? We can put a satellite around Mars, that's how accurate.

[chetak]

We have a very large aircraft carrier. It's called the INS "Southern Indian Peninsula". This is where we base a lot of missiles and aircraft.

Our missiles are accurate. How accurate? We can put a satellite around Mars, that's how accurate.

a leeeetle doubtful, saar.

Different agencies, different capabilities, different dedication and voila, we have very different CEPs.

We can afford to miss mars but cannot afford to miss anything that we are shooting at on mother earth and we need to get them varmints the very first time.

Even with a relatively large blast radius somehow,I am not as confident as you seem to be onlee.

[member_20292]

I'm confident. I cannot imagine that the Thumba rockets that launched India's satellites are NOT the ancestors of the Indian guided missile program. Kalam sahib was there at both places.

Confidence rakho mian. AoA!

[chetak]

I'm confident. I cannot imagine that the Thumba rockets that launched India's satellites are NOT the ancestors of the Indian guided missile program. Kalam sahib was there at both places.

Confidence rakho mian. AoA!

Sirjee,

The ISRO programs are firewalled. These guys do not want anything interfering with their work or supply chain, Kalam or no Kalam.

Yes, in case of real heat, there is a very good chance that the minds may meet for joint solutions but until then, the firewall stays and that's how ISRO prefers it.

Hearing from chaiwalla that DRDO has been trying to poach for many years now but ISRO always carefully counts their spoons after any rare chai biscoot sessions with DRDO.

Firewall is just like civil military nuke programs and very suspicious eyes are always watching.

Even if military wants to enter ISRO for whatever, they very much prefer it if one does not go in uniform.

[Kartik]

TCAS cleared for IN special mission aircraft

The government has cleared the purchase and integration of Traffic Collision Avoidance Systems (TCAS) on the Indian Navy's Tu-142, Dornier Do-228 and Il-38SD aircraft fleets, in a crucial move to shore up flight safety during extended operations at sea. The navy has for years felt the need to give its reconnaissance fleet airborne collision avoidance systems.

The recent deployment of P-8I aircraft in the hunt for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 underscored the need for TCAS on all aircraft. The navy's Tu-142s, also based at INS Rajali in Arakkonam, Tamil Nadu, had also been on standby for the search operation but were not used since they would have been deployed in airspace that was thick with other aircraft and helicopters.

The navy's worst ever disaster before the INS Sindhurakshak tragedy last year, was the mid-air collision of two Il-38s in Goa during jubilee celebrations of the navy's air arm. The effort to arm these aircraft (new ones were procured subsequently) with TCAS and other safety systems has been on since then.

[chetak]

TCAS cleared for IN special mission aircraft

The navy's worst ever disaster before the INS Sindhurakshak tragedy last year, was the mid-air collision of two Il-38s in Goa during jubilee celebrations of the navy's air arm. The effort to arm these aircraft (new ones were procured subsequently) with TCAS and other safety systems has been on since then.

During a close formation flight of the two IL-38s, the rear one overran the one in front and chewed up his empennage. No TCAS could have prevented this particular disaster.

[member_22539]

Sirjee,

The ISRO programs are firewalled. These guys do not want anything interfering with their work or supply chain, Kalam or no Kalam.

Yes, in case of real heat, there is a very good chance that the minds may meet for joint solutions but until then, the firewall stays and that's how ISRO prefers it.

Hearing from chaiwalla that DRDO has been trying to poach for many years now but ISRO always carefully counts their spoons after any rare chai biscoot sessions with DRDO.

Firewall is just like civil military nuke programs and very suspicious eyes are always watching.

Even if military wants to enter ISRO for whatever, they very much prefer it if one does not go in uniform.

Funny how people believe in fairytales like this. Just look up the Agni program and the contributions of ISRO SLV rocket.

[chetak]

Sirjee,

The ISRO programs are firewalled. These guys do not want anything interfering with their work or supply chain, Kalam or no Kalam.

Yes, in case of real heat, there is a very good chance that the minds may meet for joint solutions but until then, the firewall stays and that's how ISRO prefers it.

Hearing from chaiwalla that DRDO has been trying to poach for many years now but ISRO always carefully counts their spoons after any rare chai biscoot sessions with DRDO.

Firewall is just like civil military nuke programs and very suspicious eyes are always watching.

Even if military wants to enter ISRO for whatever, they very much prefer it if one does not go in uniform.

Funny how people believe in fairytales like this. Just look up the Agni program and the contributions of ISRO SLV rocket.

That's all in the past.

Each is charting it's own course now and doing it's own work.

ISRO will not risk being sanctioned again if it can help it. One is very successful and the other not noticeably so. One is globally recognized and the other not even nationally. One has painstakingly developed a complex and global supply chain over the years which it will not jeopardize and the other does not seem to care too much for such mundane pursuits

ISRO will lose valuable manpower ever being targeted readily by goras for trained "rocket scientists" if it has no serious and cutting edge work to do

[Karan M]

Sorry but above is just junk no offense intended
Both orgs patronize and source from the same suppliers and ISRO has also leveraged DRDO work and vice versa. Anybody even reasonably informed could quote line and verse and the only reason its not is because of obvious reasons. Claiming ISRO has local suppliers and others dont is similarly wrong. As matter of fact, other orgs in India have a wider footprint given the number of different programs and investment therein. Firewalling only goes to a certain extent in the aero industry and even the world knows it, where the same international firms supply to multiple orgs within India as well. Bias is all fine, but facts are a completely different matter altogether. As regards recognition, Agnis give India a xertain kind of recognition, whereas Mars missions give another. Suffice to say both kinds of recognition are needed in todays world. Soft and hard power in terms of tech prowess go together.

[chetak]

Sorty but above is pure junk. Both orgs patronize and source from the same suppliers and ISRO has also leveraged DRDO work and vice versa. Firewalling only goes to a certain extent in the aero industry.

why aero industry??

I cover pretty much most of the aero industry in India for my rozi roti and I have never seen this.I cover PSUs, DRDOs and ISRO along with a majority of the big and small private players associated the aero industry

[Sagar G]

One has painstakingly developed a complex and global supply chain over the years which it will not jeopardize and the other does not seem to care too much for such mundane pursuits

Ah yes all our strategic missiles are coming right out of the fairy dreams of ISRO scientists.

[Karan M]

Sorty but above is pure junk. Both orgs patronize and source from the same suppliers and ISRO has also leveraged DRDO work and vice versa. Firewalling only goes to a certain extent in the aero industry.

why aero industry??

I cover pretty much most of the aero industry in India for my rozi roti and I have never seen this.I cover PSUs, DRDOs and ISRO along with a majority of the big and small private players associated the aero industry

And yet you happen to be plain wrong. Like i said anyone reasonably informed would know there are many SMEs and private players, let alone public ones who happen to be working for both orgs and face similar challenges and quote much the same results when working for either. Suffice to say what you quoted about one focusing on local supply chain and other not was just bunk. You dislike one org, fine. Dispassionate analysis is another thing altogether. Many have interacted with far too many of these firms to understand the efforts both have put into local sourcing and how they segue together and that there are even common weaknesses in specific areas that relate to both directly related to Indian industrial capability, as there are strengths.

If ISRO and DRDO publicly maintain a separation to avoid being tarred by the NPA jihadis, thats fine, but one would have to be in full denial to distinguish artificially between the industrial capabilities that are represented by both orgs together.

[Karan M]

One has painstakingly developed a complex and global supply chain over the years which it will not jeopardize and the other does not seem to care too much for such mundane pursuits

Ah yes all our strategic missiles are coming right out of the fairy dreams of ISRO scientists.

Common sense is apparently uncommon. India is not exactly a babe in the woods when it comes to developing technology or seeing who does what. Enough said.