ToucheKaran M wrote:Common sense is apparently uncommon.
Some khujli causing stuff for DRDO haters
You haven't addressed my question about firewalling. I would appreciate an answer.Karan M wrote:And yet you happen to be plain wrong. Like i said anyone reasonably informed would know there are many SMEs and private players, let alone public ones who happen to be working for both orgs and face similar challenges and quote much the same results when working for either. Suffice to say what you quoted about one focusing on local supply chain and other not was just bunk. You dislike one org, fine. Dispassionate analysis is another thing altogether. Many have interacted with far too many of these firms to understand the efforts both have put into local sourcing and how they segue together and that there are even common weaknesses in specific areas that relate to both directly related to Indian industrial capability, as there are strengths.chetak wrote:{quote="Karan M"}Sorty but above is pure junk. Both orgs patronize and source from the same suppliers and ISRO has also leveraged DRDO work and vice versa. Firewalling only goes to a certain extent in the aero industry.{/quote}
why aero industry??
I cover pretty much most of the aero industry in India for my rozi roti and I have never seen this.I cover PSUs, DRDOs and ISRO along with a majority of the big and small private players associated the aero industry
If ISRO and DRDO publicly maintain a separation to avoid being tarred by the NPA jihadis, thats fine, but one would have to be in full denial to distinguish artificially between the industrial capabilities that are represented by both orgs together.
I visit a small srilankan firm which makes a few high tech major aerospace products supplied directly to two major aerospace clients to be used directly on the aircraft and not as minor part of any subsystem or LRU. This is much more than is made by any repeat any player in India, be it big or small. There are many such firms in srilanka alone. Not even talking of malaysia or china where we also goKaran M wrote:Common sense is apparently uncommon. India is not exactly a babe in the woods when it comes to developing technology or seeing who does what. Enough said.Sagar G wrote:{quote="chetak"} One has painstakingly developed a complex and global supply chain over the years which it will not jeopardize and the other does not seem to care too much for such mundane pursuits{/quote}
Ah yes all our strategic missiles are coming right out of the fairy dreams of ISRO scientists.
Claiming ISRO has local suppliers and others dont is similarly wrong.Karan M wrote:Sorry but above is just junk no offense intended
Both orgs patronize and source from the same suppliers and ISRO has also leveraged DRDO work and vice versa. Anybody even reasonably informed could quote line and verse and the only reason its not is because of obvious reasons. Claiming ISRO has local suppliers and others dont is similarly wrong. As matter of fact, other orgs in India have a wider footprint given the number of different programs and investment therein. Firewalling only goes to a certain extent in the aero industry and even the world knows it, where the same international firms supply to multiple orgs within India as well. Bias is all fine, but facts are a completely different matter altogether. As regards recognition, Agnis give India a xertain kind of recognition, whereas Mars missions give another. Suffice to say both kinds of recognition are needed in todays world. Soft and hard power in terms of tech prowess go together.
chetak wrote:One painstakingly develops, guides and nurtures it's suppliers while the other treats them as adversaries only.
Another warrior enters the arena and claims greatness by dissing ISRO??Sagar G wrote:On one hand we have an organization which has no demanding customer and neither it's products have any element of human involvement which provides you with breathing space in terms of risk that you can take w.r.t. the product it makes. Hence they can blow up in mid air their launcher if it deviates from it's intended path and no one will bat an eyelid for that. This important element is missed by most and hence the usual rant of "oh that other org is such a dirty poor bania onlee".
On the other hand we have an organization which has to work on demands made by others and "I repeat" made by others, fullfill them and still instead of having orders for the same gets asked to do more before the said product can be inducted.
Definitely chalk and cheese when the bar for one is already set so low where they can get away by failing to meet deadlines set by themselves and "I repeat" deadlines set by themselves then I don't see how we can start logically comparing one with the other. Let's see how much time our "gora equivalent chikna without any fault organization" takes to make a human safe flight capable machine when mother Russia has already hand held them w.r.t. that. For starters they have already pushed back date's which were doled out by them and "I repeat" doled out by them.
Can someone please point out to me the aeronautical greatness achieved by likes of Sri Lanka, Malaysia and China that we need to compete with them ??? Has the gleat panda aeronautical industry been able to come up with a full fly by wire yet ??? And I am not even asking about their stealing from everywhere and begging from mother Russia.
Only logical way to answer back a great warrior coming out from I don't know where or which part.chetak wrote:Another warrior enters the arena and claims greatness by dissing ISRO??
Oh now I get what you want to achieve for India. Good thought though why depend on others when we can help our enemy all by ourselves.chetak wrote:The countries you have mentioned have manufacturing capabilities that NaMo dreams of for India. In the old days, they --lanka and malayasia machined centrifuge parts for AQ khan and the pakis assembled them from the parts made here
Demanding customers or scared and afraid to trust customers?? SARAS and the idly radome avro was what ?? friendly fire??Sagar G wrote:On one hand we have an organization which has no demanding customer and neither it's products have any element of human involvement which provides you with breathing space in terms of risk that you can take w.r.t. the product it makes. Hence they can blow up in mid air their launcher if it deviates from it's intended path and no one will bat an eyelid for that. This important element is missed by most and hence the usual rant of "oh that other org is such a dirty poor bania onlee".
On the other hand we have an organization which has to work on demands made by others and "I repeat" made by others, fullfill them and still instead of having orders for the same gets asked to do more before the said product can be inducted.
Definitely chalk and cheese when the bar for one is already set so low where they can get away by failing to meet deadlines set by themselves and "I repeat" deadlines set by themselves then I don't see how we can start logically comparing one with the other. Let's see how much time our "gora equivalent chikna without any fault organization" takes to make a human safe flight capable machine when mother Russia has already hand held them w.r.t. that. For starters they have already pushed back date's which were doled out by them and "I repeat" doled out by them.
Can someone please point out to me the aeronautical greatness achieved by likes of Sri Lanka, Malaysia and China that we need to compete with them ??? Has the gleat panda aeronautical industry been able to come up with a full fly by wire yet ??? And I am not even asking about their stealing from everywhere and begging from mother Russia.
You asked what they had and I told you. It is not a point of debate but of fact.Sagar G wrote:Only logical way to answer back a great warrior coming out from I don't know where or which part.chetak wrote:Another warrior enters the arena and claims greatness by dissing ISRO??
Welcome!
Oh now I get what you want to achieve for India. Good thought though why depend on others when we can help our enemy all by ourselves.chetak wrote:The countries you have mentioned have manufacturing capabilities that NaMo dreams of for India. In the old days, they --lanka and malayasia machined centrifuge parts for AQ khan and the pakis assembled them from the parts made here
By the way who machined the centrifuge parts for our programme. Malaysia, Sri Lanka or did they come from Chinese nuclear wallmart ???
Whose programme SARAS is ??? Lack of facts ??? Your Avro rant only reinforces the fact that I stated earlier. They can blow up their vehicles and no body will bat an eyelid for that.chetak wrote:Demanding customers or scared and afraid to trust customers?? SARAS and the idly radome avro was what ?? friendly fire??
Oh please walking talking encyclopaedia of Indian R&D history please share no. Enough with all your below the belt unverifiable comments.chetak wrote:Really!! Are we not doing this very thing unsuccessfully?? or you don't know??
What I stated is also fact your inability to get them is your problem not mine.chetak wrote:You asked what they had and I told you. It is not a point of debate but of fact.
Please state it hear only I doubt I have anybody so much knowledgeable in my aafiss aafiss unlike his highness.chetak wrote:Ask in your office who machined the Indian centrifuge parts. The answer may surprise you.
The individual suppliers did not know what the whole machine was about. Each unquestioningly did his small part as per drawings given to them without knowing that others were also working. This is how companies get their work done anywhere or is that too much for you to understand??Sagar G wrote:Only logical way to answer back a great warrior coming out from I don't know where or which part.chetak wrote:Another warrior enters the arena and claims greatness by dissing ISRO??
Welcome!
Oh now I get what you want to achieve for India. Good thought though why depend on others when we can help our enemy all by ourselves.chetak wrote:The countries you have mentioned have manufacturing capabilities that NaMo dreams of for India. In the old days, they --lanka and malayasia machined centrifuge parts for AQ khan and the pakis assembled them from the parts made here
By the way who machined the centrifuge parts for our programme. Malaysia, Sri Lanka or did they come from Chinese nuclear wallmart ???
What brain you have AMAZING YAAR !!!! Now who would have though that things are done like this onlee. BRILLIANT Bharat Ratna deserving candidate right here.chetak wrote:The individual suppliers did not know what the whole machine was about. Each unquestioningly did his small part as per drawings given to them without knowing that others were also working. This is how companies get their work done anywhere or is that too much for you to understand??
Yes sir, I know. Sadly, I met many like you during my days there. Legends in their own minds. Output zero.Sagar G wrote:What I stated is also fact your inability to get them is your problem not mine.chetak wrote:You asked what they had and I told you. It is not a point of debate but of fact.
Please state it hear only I doubt I have anybody so much knowledgeable in my aafiss aafiss unlike his highness.chetak wrote:Ask in your office who machined the Indian centrifuge parts. The answer may surprise you.
But not to worry fellow BRFites. Have no fear chetak is here !!!! Our lord and saviour.chetak wrote:Yes sir, I know. Sadly, I met many like you during my days there. Legends in their own minds. Output zero.
Cease and desist old chap. Not to get personal onlee. Don't raise BP.Sagar G wrote:What brain you have AMAZING YAAR !!!! Now who would have though that things are done like this onlee. BRILLIANT Bharat Ratna deserving candidate right here.chetak wrote:The individual suppliers did not know what the whole machine was about. Each unquestioningly did his small part as per drawings given to them without knowing that others were also working. This is how companies get their work done anywhere or is that too much for you to understand??
Follow your own advice dear friend !!!!chetak wrote:Cease and desist old chap. Not to get personal onlee. Don't raise BP.
Again what Sherlockian levels of deductive skills. I am floored !!!!!chetak wrote:Remember the office motto, No tension , full pension. Got to serve out that many years yet or pension truncated to prorata rate. cool down.
Yoga master?? sitting on floor onlee?? must be practicing during working hours, no?? Good solid gobermint job!!Sagar G wrote:Follow your own advice dear friend !!!!chetak wrote:Cease and desist old chap. Not to get personal onlee. Don't raise BP.
Again what Sherlockian levels of deductive skills. I am floored !!!!!chetak wrote:Remember the office motto, No tension , full pension. Got to serve out that many years yet or pension truncated to prorata rate. cool down.
Mehhhh !!! Jedi master am I.chetak wrote:Yoga master?? sitting on floor onlee?? must be practicing during working hours, no??
I know.Sagar G wrote:Mehhhh !!! Jedi master am I.chetak wrote:Yoga master?? sitting on floor onlee?? must be practicing during working hours, no??
Panda, I am at peace now bring something to eat.chetak wrote:I know.
Go Home master.
Go in peace
panda having mucho report writing yet. Another day perhapsSagar G wrote:Panda, I am at peace now bring something to eat.chetak wrote:I know.
Go Home master.
Go in peace
Supply to Pakistan? That should be printing error, no?5. India Leads Naval Ship Suppliers In Asia-Pacific
India ranks as the leading naval ship supplier for Asia-Pacific partners and allies of the U.S., according
to an Aviation Week Intelligence Network (AWIN) analysis of data provided by Avascent Analytics.
The analysis indicates that India will sell about $24.5 billion worth of naval ships and related equipment--including
development services and production--to Australia, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Pakistan, Singapore,
South Korea, Taiwan and Thailand over the period 2009-2023.
Might even be true, Aman ki (Tam)Asha group wanted to gift so many things to pakees (locomotives, Power, Gas, Cement, automobiles etc), maybe some Naval gear was also sold/gifted/donated by Mickey Mouse Singhpartha wrote:The analysis indicates that India will sell about $24.5 billion worth of naval ships and related equipment--including
development services and production--to Australia, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Pakistan, Singapore,
South Korea, Taiwan and Thailand over the period 2009-2023.
Fully agree.nirav wrote:This thread could use some moderation.
What's wrong with selling stuff to Pakistan ?Shrinivasan wrote:Might even be true, Aman ki (Tam)Asha group wanted to gift so many things to pakees (locomotives, Power, Gas, Cement, automobiles etc), maybe some Naval gear was also sold/gifted/donated by Mickey Mouse Singhpartha wrote:The analysis indicates that India will sell about $24.5 billion worth of naval ships and related equipment--including
development services and production--to Australia, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Pakistan, Singapore,
South Korea, Taiwan and Thailand over the period 2009-2023.
Sohamn, this is an OSS (Ocean surveillance Ship), see my post earlier today... this seems to be like an Naval version of MNREGA designed to provide some work to HSL, but digging deeper, IN is beefing up its deep ocean surveillance capabilities.sohamn wrote:Any idea on what this new ship is ? Never heard of such a ship getting constructed in HSL.
Why? So that we can give gyaan on an open forum about what organization does what? Funny, on the one hand below you claim you don't want to talk on an "open forum" after cursing away at one organization all the while, now you wish to pursue this line of enquiry.chetak wrote:You haven't addressed my question about firewalling. I would appreciate an answer.
Yet you make errors about what each organization sources & how similar their design & industrial capabilities are. Its in nobody's interest, least of all the organizations in question, that I sit down & document even open source information about who supplies what, but nor is it some big secret either & the fact that this is some sort of surprise to you (let alone the claims that it doesn't exist) speaks for itself.I don't go to have tea with these fellows. I consult professionally for a lot of them. Both organisations have design and industrial capabilities separated by several worlds. One sets standards and the other seems confused by them. One retains live wires with practiced ease while the other lets go of it's live wires without a clue of how to retain them.
I have far more than conjecture & have been tracking these details for a long time.I know exactly TO WHOM these companies sell and exactly FROM WHOM they buy, how much of what and use where and in which product, using which process and shipped when. I see detailed inspection reports, rework done, complaints by customers and accolades and often end up training the people who work. If you have anything but conjectures to add then please do so.
I can count a dozen companies that supply to both offhand across a range of item types... Imported material commodity is not 8-10% but can go up to significantly more depending on the item being supplied, whether it is mechanical, avionics etc etc. At the end of the day, import choices are made on the basis of a) program funding b) indian industrial capability judged by TRLs. The combination of the two makes critical choices necessary.I have seen very very few companies supplying both. It usually just one or the other for an overwhelming majority of 95-98 percent. Imported material commonality is less that 8-10 % Companies tend to specialize in the parts they make. Numbingly tedious inspection procedures make them specialize further.
The "but" says it all. I can merely do a simple scan of all your posts hitherto & your dislike speaks for itself, all your caveats apart.I don't dislike any org but I have worked for one for several years to intimately know the systems and the processes and the motivation levels. I have seen senior jokers running away when meetings are called to review schedules and promised deliverables, leaving their juniors to take the flack. I have never seen such pliable ethics anywhere but there
Actually, the difference judged purely on outcomes is quite similar. Neither has exactly managed to meet overambitious targets thanks to both external constraints and their own issues. As I said, your bias has clouded your objectivity. Case in point - taking pleasure in even petty issues such as senior scientists of one org being sentenced to imprisonment for some bureaucratic wrangling! Its the kind of non news that the Indian media excels in yet...and please, lets not debate semantics about "what you meant" and so forth.. your likes/dislikes are your own & you are welcome to them. I am merely pointing out objectivity is shot in the process & that, quite frankly is what it is.Even now I despair for one and laud the other because the difference is like chalk and cheese. In the end as a deshbakth, I have pride and a stake in the success of both organisations..
Boss, I am not asking you for details & nor am I on the look out for some "gossip". If you were truly bothered about "open forums", then we wouldn't be having this discussion either.I will not put down anything further in an open forum. Many of my customers lurk on this forum. May be this can be a point of discussion in some local meet.
Like I said, no offense intended, your inability to look beyond your own likes/dislikes is making you reach some really wide reaching and "out there" assumptions. The above is a typical case " One painstakingly develops, guides and nurtures it's suppliers while the other treats them as adversaries only. - which are just plain wrong based on the reams of information available publicly for so many programs on this forum itself.chetak wrote:One painstakingly develops, guides and nurtures it's suppliers while the other treats them as adversaries only.
Suppliers react very differently to such customers and look constantly for a way out
At mid management level, I have seen jokers who forcibly grab source code from helpless suppliers threatened into silence and present the very same as their original work during promotion boards. Height of deception.
So what exactly is the big deal? I can show you firms in Belgium which supplied systems which were not available in France. France<<< Belgium.I visit a small srilankan firm which makes a few high tech major aerospace products supplied directly to two major aerospace clients to be used directly on the aircraft and not as minor part of any subsystem or LRU. This is much more than is made by any repeat any player in India, be it big or small. There are many such firms in srilanka alone. Not even talking of malaysia or china where we also go
I think the point that you are missing here is that it is you who set up the irrelevant and quite pointless ISRO vs DRDO comparison based on a dodgy premise. Its kind of the argument method of saying "my team is better than your team". And you end up provoking the response "heck no, the other team is much better than your favorite".. in which case you yell "outrage!!"Another warrior enters the arena and claims greatness by dissing ISRO??
The graphic says Steel weight, at 175M length it could mean an empty displacement of somewhere around that weight.Bheeshma wrote:Is the displacement 10000 tonne or just empty weight? Could it be a tanker/Supplier ship?