chetak wrote:
Sirjee,
firewalling?? not answered yet and you are not going to because you are simply blowing smoke
Sirjee, I am not going to debate all this on an
open forum while you engage in rhetoric. Kindly go figure whose interests, your questions about fire walling & such topics serve.
Suffice to say, it would have been easier to take your pronouncements seriously before you let loose about supply chains & this & that, whilst making glaring errors which anyone who has followed procurement could see through.
Don't put words in my mouth. Everyone knows that both organisations source nationally as well as globally. No harm done. Many things are not made here simply because of economies of scale or lack of capability. Are we going to improve?? Surely we will, in the fullness of time.
Oh ho ho! So now suddenly, you start talking of "economies of scale or lack of capability" and "both organizations source nationally and locally", a page or so back you were claiming both firms completely operate independently, ISRO doesnt import while DRDO onlee imports and what not, and Sri Lanka Malaysia are ahead and what not (yup and so are Belgium/Norway vs France/US by same logic) ..kya mazaak hain sirjee.
Boss, you are not making sense because you wrote completely bizarre stuff to begin with.
You can claim what you want now, but facts are facts, one of which is that there are only some firms which can supply some items & ISRO/DRDO/private/public firms all work with those firms. Its what it is.
ISRO/DRDO/above firms are not consumed with hatred or one versus the other and are merely focused on getting stuff done.
As matter of fact, even the current MOM mission is reliant on hardware developed by a third party Indian firm owned by yet another third Govt agency, which works for both DRDO & ISRO..
In the meanwhile the Forces are just not willing anymore to be jerked around by jokers on extension and whose political maneuvering abilities far over shadow their technical prowess.
Yes, yes, the forces are not willing yada yada, now you speak for them, as well as ISRO...
Last I checked a number of officers are on deputation to labs to get their items developed inhouse. All maya onlee, their pride in what they are doing is completely false only..
In short, several folks are not willing to be jerked around by the yehudis, by the Russians or the wine folks either & are gritting their teeth and getting the stuff done. They have learned the hard way.. and continue to learn.. no surprise then that a lot of one service's critical sensor imports are on a decline..
That apart, dear sir, no matter how much you wish the reverse were true, the import candy shop is closing. The word is out. Our economy has bigger fish to fry as well and import programs which take up money equal to the entire health spend in critical areas are no longer sustainable. The idea seems to be picking up when stuff like this appears from even the ever ready import lovin' authors:
http://www.janes.com/article/43164/indi ... nt-venture
All for dinky toys that are paraded on Republic Day, yet we cant afford sustainment for protracted periods because everything is imported (as versus subsystems or COTS stuff) & the ordinary jawan doesn't even get BPJs and basic stuff..
As regards "political maneuvering capabilities"- lets just leave that dawg aside, because if we go down that path, the kind of rubbish that has been happening everywhere, including the forces will just give enough PR to those who use this against India.. unlike you though, I am not consumed by blind hatred against any one group to score brownie points using dirty linen..
Narayan murty says under promise and over deliver and many folks have taken this sentiment to heart but have only reversed the premise.
Ah, the great sage shri Murthy.. the man who was all for meritocracy and what not and suddenly we have something different.
Whom will you quote next sirjee? Ombaba on peace processes since he won the Nobel peace prize?
The Forces are customers of both organisations in many projects. If the customer is not satisfied then they have all the rights to speak up. Personal bias on my side did not / does not lead to generation of those customer complaints which existed long before I arrived and will exist long after I am gone. Are they all biased right from the beginning?? Surely, even you know the answer to that one.
Sirjee, personal bias on your part is what leads you to ensure that you ignore the positives and rant about minor trifles and even attempt to point score using petty legal judgements. Itna dislike hain, to objectivity gaya tel lene..thats all I pointed out. But not all see through your eyes as well & your attempt to selectively tar & feather one group using incorrect data is not really accurate either.
As regards forces being customers of both organizations, again this is the sort of dubious generalization that renders your comments so frivolous.
The proportion of DRDO programs that are for the services is many many times more and for obvious reasons & the challenges they deal with (including in large part the services) are also quite different and hence more in scale.
Next, I do happen to know a bit about the joint programs, and the slippages involved, so please, ISRO (or for that matter any organization in India) unfortunately does not have magic powder to sprinkle on lack of core technology and make it go away (for instance Rohini before it did get through,
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 334153.cms), and even the folks they depend on or work with are the same.. enough said on that as well.
Have I faced the brunt of dodgy products?? Yes I have. Am I upset?? Yes I am. Am I not allowed to speak up?? I am going to whether any one likes it or not. Am I going to compare one with the other?? This was a free country, the last time I checked.
Speak all you wish, rant all you wish, since its a free country, I am equally entitled to point out where you are making completely incorrect claims & that the chip on your shoulder is so large that it has consumed your sense of any sort of objectivity, which cannot even see the progress made. That too, is being part of a free country.
Dodgy products etc, lets just say that if the list of dodgy imports was catalogued, it would be be an endeavor by itself.
I have the right to admire / not admire any organisation. why the khujili?? Is it affecting my perception of non ISRO orgs?? maybe but then so what?? because this is the majority view of the customers consistently conveyed for the past so many years and publicly expressed by folks far more erudite and capable than I.
And many of the customers who do work with aforesaid organization and have begun to understand the complexity of the tasks required, now say the opposite after having experienced the tender mercies of spares and logistics for their imported gear. We had several folks who work on programs like the ALH had their pride in those programs, speak for itself (in contrast, your anecdote was about how a naval officer "tore someone up" for suggesting something yada yada").. again, the contrast in attitudes speaks for itself.
Things will change & are moving in the right direction, given our unique issues in the country (less said the better about the specific aspects which drove imports).
Your view is that "I am right to be prejudiced, because hey, some folks have been so &
I will be so" - like I said earlier, go ahead and hate 'em. But please don't be upset when folks see that your hate makes you speak for everyone else whom you don't represent, eg
all suppliers to DRDO, ISRO etc & that your anecdotal evidences hold as much water as do anecdotes everywhere.
So in short, sirjee..in that, I see the khujli on your side, perhaps not used to folks countering your points perhaps? Its much the same elsewhere, like I noted about the other gentleman holding forth on the LCA, sirjee - folks with fixed viewpoints tend to get very hot under the collar when faced with counter points.
There are two reasons I'd counter your bias.
One, is the same reason why I'd speak up when somebody lets his/her dislike of the state overwhelm reason & start blaming the IA et al non stop for "repression" & so forth in J&K and similar stuff. Similarly anecdotal based personal dislike - "I was stopped by IA, they were hostile to me in my place". Much the same way I see the Tehelka expose on the Assam Rifles now being used to bash the services by many folks in the NE saying "All are like this". The Kashmiris I meet online hate the Indian Army with a passion - they too cite similar claims of "majority view" and speaking on behalf of everyone in J&K etc.
Second, and this is a larger issue at play here, that these ego driven tirades against any one group paint, by the erudite and capable folks you reference, paint a completely lop sided picture which then act against the Indian national interest.
Whether it is the hate against the IA which vitiates its image and hence leads folks to consider dropping its deployment in J&K. To manufactured hate against DRDO which serves the interests of arms lobbies who stoke the flames & piggy back on the one sided views as shown in your above posts.
Much the same as seen even during 1999, when folks with similar views to yours loudly poured scorn on even valid technological achievements & the fighting prowess of the Indian state, and more attacks were launched on India as a result. In short, whether you realize it or not, the one sided tirades of those who claim to be more erudite & capable, harm Indian national interests far more than the organization/s they claim to loath. Ironic.
The role played by these patsies, has been picked up elsewhere as well.
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... n-pak-lwe/
Written by D K Singh | New Delhi | Posted: June 17, 2014 2:06 am
When, over the weekend, Prime Minister Narendra Modi spoke of self-reliance in arms, he endorsed what his National Security Adviser Ajit Doval has been advocating for long.
As director of the Delhi-based think tank Vivekananda International Foundation, Doval wrote in February 2012: “There is a powerful lobby in the country supported by a still more powerful and cash rich network of arms manufacturers and their front men who have a vested interest in stemming India’s indigenous defence production programme… Denigrating the capabilities of our scientists, DRDO and DPSUs is a part of this campaign.”
Oh BTW, this was squarely targeted at the MOD:
“For acquiring self reliance — cutting across the barriers of public and private sectors, the Indian Defence Ministry can perhaps take a leaf from the experience of ISRO which outsources components, hardware and sub-systems for its launch vehicles and satellites from the Indian industrial units, both in the private and public sectors.”
And lest you use this to engage in more DRDO bashing, this sort of stuff is what prompted the above:
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/02/a ... s-for.html
Because the DRDO wishes to select its suppliers as it wishes in ALL programs without MOD forcing one DPSU over a more deserving candidate, DPSU or otherwise.
Doesn't manage suppliers, doesn't engage in localization yada yada.. lets see..more unhappy suppliers here - go on, do a private versus public count:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ozA9K_v6zG4/U ... tium-3.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TUzhqD9J4wE/U ... tium-4.jpg
Merely a sample sirjee.
And please don't give me the gyaan that this is an exception, not true in all programs, only Brahmos (nope, across IGMP actually), only IGMP (nope, across many DRDO programs actually)..
So, please - I can see the damage these "erudite and capable" gentlemen you reference have done via t
heir one sided propaganda and whose interests they actually serve as useful patsies. One is constrained by their prior records & the deserved respect they earned in their earlier stints, to actually not harshly judge the harm they are doing the nation via their intemperate claims on such topics.
But one's personal likes and dislikes don't stop the progress.
Since anecdotes are a rage, there was a gent who hated Indian orgs et al so much after his org had issues with the Prithvi program and BARC on some other project that he became a lifelong BARC/DRDO basher..still to be found on many fora vociferously cursing them. Free country and all that.
I am sure he too has many reasons to be upset, but even as he complains, the Agnis keep rolling out, the reactors keep getting built.
Is the supplier right and the customer wrong?? It simply does not work like that. Is the customer asking for the moon?? Which customer in the world does not??
Oh please, sirjee.. five minutes back you were complaining about how suppliers were mistreated by a customer, and now you are going the other way. There it was all about how customer should work with suppliers for joint success, ISRO does it, and now its supplier is wrong, customer is always right.
Please make your mind up.
Humor aside, the above just shows how badly your arguments are structured. In the services case, yes, the customers have asked for the moon many times, and in some cases it was justified, some cases it was not.
The bigger question is whether the services have a structured method in place to even posit or project their needs. The answer is to a large extent, no.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2007/05/c ... needs.html
This BTW is something what many folks have been hammering on about for ages. Its more of an institutional challenge than some conspiracy since developing a R&D, development mindset requires a significant investment of time and effort. India's orgs were developed on a British template for a colony and they didn't have that for us planned and we didnt inherit it. Lack of MOD interest and direction meant that apart from some progress in one service, rest have languished. This has led to the usual problems.
Hopefully things will change in the future.
Especially when the supplier is demanding that the customer put the suppliers products where the customer's mouth is. Does this happen elsewhere?? On the scale that it happens here, I seriously doubt it.
Gross over simplification again, because the problem is simply the customer suppliers involvement is the crux of the issue here, which would otherwise ensure that its no longer a supplier product but a customers jointly developed product.
As versus your claims of "it only happens here" and its all cheese and wine elsewhere, I submit:
Germany
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/c ... 977202.htm
US
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... |FRONTPAGE
India w/Russia
http://miragec14.blogspot.in/2014/09/in ... ss-of.html
Before you claim rhetorical advantage sirjee of saying "oh see things are different, they said its an issue", German AF Chief comes to India selling those very same EFs with which he has an issue and doesn't name call his people in public, the amount of money spent on all those programs and the Khan one dwarfs combined Indian R&D for all programs spend by a significant margin.
And third link - private feedback, no tons of leaks about how dodgy Russians are messing us up, why is that, pray tell. Ghar ki murgee dal barabar and all that. Sorry sirjee, your anecdotes about how great their stuff is pales before similar anecdotes about how great their support was elsewhere as well.
Kindly read through the above & if there is anything that is an "Indian problem", its that some erudite and capable folks adapt differing standards for different providers.
Finally, do the customers deserve better, when they are forced to put their lives in jeopardy, time and time again, some poor jawan?? You tell me.
Ah, yes, the "its the jawans at risk" argument, which we have thrashed out in discussions time & again, never mind that nobody exactly argued that they be put at risk & that they have been at risk & more so, because of
dodgy imports seen through at immense cost and very little capability.
Less said about that the better because even collating all the known/public information on an open forum to show the reality & the depth of the issue doesn't serve Indian interests well.
if this jackass who flip flops on t-72 to arjun and cannot even tell the specs of P-3c vs Tu-142 is an expert then I am the defence minister of India.
