LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Oct 2014 12:55

indranilroy wrote:Night Flying 2014 (from ADA website)

Thanks Indranil... great pics... waiting for SP1 pics...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Oct 2014 13:06

Third picture from bottom is real shakinah one... Only thing missing is couple of AAM and PGM and it will look all set to blast some jehadi targets in Pakistan to smithereens.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 03 Oct 2014 13:17

Lca Tejas to get Israeli Missiles soon

Looks like they want Derby to use Navy's familiarity, israeli radar components and due to lack of Russian help with any of their other missiles

Tejas Production line at mercy of further orders

I seriously hope they decide to mate the Kaveri or get more 404 with US export clearance and keep the assembly line busy

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 03 Oct 2014 14:15

Hobbes wrote:I seem to remember that just before the maiden flight of the LCA in 2001, Lockheed Martin wrote an official letter to the GoI stating that the LCA was unfit to fly, it would crash on takeoff, yada yada, and that out of pure altruism and humanitarian concern for the safety of the pilot and associated crew they were sending this warning not to proceed with the flight, and to scratch the program altogether.

True story, kudos to Shri George Fernandez for giving them the one finger salute and going ahead with the test flight. This event has been mentioned by Shri Kota Harinarayana in the Inside DRDO documentary by Discovery channel where they say that "international agencies" have projected that LCA will crash and burn. DM only told them about this after the succesful flight of Tejas. This single action by him makes him my choice for best defence minister yet.

FF to today and bhikaris are begging for orders for what not, aak thoo !!!!

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 03 Oct 2014 15:49

Though OT I have attended GF meeting long before he became DM wherein he was alleging that Indian Army is there is suppress people of India. Later in pubic he admitted that he was wrong about his ideas on the armed forces of our nation. That alone makes him a great man with great heart to accept when ine is wrong. Very rare to find such persons..

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 03 Oct 2014 17:45

The Tejas pics look brilliant!
On a side note, one of the pics shows construction in the vicinity of the airport - any idea how close is that? Those tower cranes almost look as if they have LOS access to the airport, not good from a safety standpoint.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Oct 2014 18:10

Earlier, all flights used to be with AA-73 missiles on the outer pylons. These days, just the outer pylons are present, but no missiles. Was same with SP-1 that flew recently. No missiles on the outer pylons. Looks like they have done enough tests to determine the flex, and have tweaked the FCS so that the missiles are not needed always.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 03 Oct 2014 18:39

rohitvats wrote:Third picture from bottom is real shakinah one... Only thing missing is couple of AAM and PGM and it will look all set to blast some jehadi targets in Pakistan to smithereens.

that picture really looks great.When i showed it to my wife she said it looks like "an eagle ready to attack".
Prasanna

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 03 Oct 2014 23:36

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 14h 14 hours ago
@Sbmvv2000 Gun testing from the ground is over. Airborne testing after the holiday season. BVR trials by end October. Neither is a big deal.

The "no big deal" part is from Dr. Tamilmani.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · Oct 1
LCA update #4: Derby carriage trials Mid-October. Test firing by end-October. Dr TamilMani says piece of cake. #FOCMarch2015

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 04 Oct 2014 01:34

The last pic - flying off in the evening sky - is superb. So not much change in freezing design probably. Hopefully a prototype is set aside just to see if another engine (or two) could fit well with screw driver methodology or such and such.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 04 Oct 2014 09:07

When is the actual handover to the IAF? I think that will be more ceremonial, or is already done?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Oct 2014 10:54

I think with IOC, the aircraft was handed over to IAF, with FOC, a full fledged squadron would be formed...

member_28640 · Post by **member_28640** » 04 Oct 2014 13:02

nikhil_p wrote:The Tejas pics look brilliant!
On a side note, one of the pics shows construction in the vicinity of the airport - any idea how close is that? Those tower cranes almost look as if they have LOS access to the airport, not good from a safety standpoint.

If you are going by bmtc you can see inside the structural assembly hangar... Cisf takes good care of people who seem to be suspicious

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 05 Oct 2014 00:14

I liked the Raha ji statement that 'depletion of squadron has to be replaced by LCA'

. I thought that LCA-Mk1 was racing towards FOC by Q2-2015 but sources below (MOD? Babus?) say delay is by 12 months - Q4 2015?

Ejection seat issues, increasing length by 60 cms (still world's smallest combat aircraft?), shaving off 500 kilos .. Kaam baaki hai abhi.

The Indian Air Force's (IAF) Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) - Tejas, which has been in the making since 1983 and is expected to join the force by March, 2015, still suffers from some teething problems.

Some of the modifications that IAF has to make on the Tejas include pushing back the cockpit panels by few centimeters to prevent the toes of an ejecting pilot from getting entangled with instruments and aides and adding another 60 centimetres in length to the aircraft body to allow easy access and replacements of critical circuitry.

Apart from these critical changes, the IAF and State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are in the process of shaving off about 550 kilograms from the aircraft, making it lighter and adding more power to it.

Senior Defence Ministry officials told NDTV that the LCA Mark-I is still somewhat far from being given any operational duty. The aircraft is expected to replace the Russian-made MiG-21 aircrafts which have already been decommissioned.

"There are several changes that are being carried out," senior IAF officials told NDTV.

On Wednesday, the first of the aircraft, built to series production, completed a 25-minute-long sortie. The Tejas LCA is expected to cost the Indian exchequer Rs. 50,000 crore.

Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Arup Raha told reporters today, "I think things will be fall in place. The first limited series production of LCA has already flown based on IOC II (Initial operational clearance). We are sure that teething problems of LCA will get over soon."

Drawing attention to the depleting fighter fleet of the IAF, Air Marshal Raha said that "the draw down has to be prevented by quick induction by induction of LCA and MMRCA." The "draw down" that Air Marshal Raha refers to is the phasing out of legacy planes like the MiG 21.

Sources said several "test points" and operational parameters still need to be validated by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification in Bangalore, ensuring that the process would take at least 12 months for completion. The LCA continues to be riddled by inadequacies and problems in integrating its radars and sensors.

"Training manuals, maintenance manuals haven't yet been prepared," an officer said adding that "the IAF expects the first squadron to be available by 2017-18."

Sources told NDTV that prior to the modifications, pilots with shoe size nine or above would have found it impossible to eject in an emergency.

"The feet would get stuck preventing a clean bail out," the officer said.

Also, critical circuits and parts that could require replacements were placed so deep inside the aircraft body that the turn-around time between sorties varied between two to three hours - considered to be exceptionally long.

"The length of the aircraft was increased to rearrange the circuits and parts to allow easy access and faster replacement," the officer added.

The first squadron of the LCA Tejas is scheduled to be based in Sulur in Tamil Nadu.

"Since there are several issues that need to be sorted, the first few jets will be based in Bangalore alongside Hal to allow for faster problem solving," officials said.

Sources said that the IAF is pinning its hopes not on the LCA Mark I but on advanced LCA (Mark-II) to replace its ageing fleet of MiG-21 variants. The LCA Mark-II or second generation of LCA is expected to have a better design besides a more powerful engine - General Electric GE-414. This is expected to generate as much as 90-96 kN thrust as against the current engines - GE-IN20 which generate only about 80-85kN thrust.

The LCA Mark-II is scheduled for flight trials by 2018. The IAF, however, feels that trials will be delayed by at least two if not three years as the current platform will have to undergo major re-engineering to accommodate the heavier GE 414 engines.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/for-t ... eststories

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Oct 2014 01:12

My takeaways:
LCA Mk 1's FOC in summer 2015, but could be delayed until Mar-2016.

LCA Mk 2 flight trials will possibly be delayed until 2021 (meaning earliest induction possible is 2025?).

Bhaskar_T wrote: increasing length by 60 cms (still world's smallest combat aircraft?)

Increased length by 2 additional feet will get it almost as large as Mirage-2000. Any MkII extensions due to 414 engine, will make it longer than Mirage!

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 05 Oct 2014 01:34

what is the deal with world smallest fighter? I mean will the PAF or PLAAF pilots commit suicide as soon as they are faced with world smallest fighter or will they not fight it or will they let it go? What advantage the world smallest aircraft gives and why is that such a badge of honor?

satya · Post by **satya** » 05 Oct 2014 01:44

Moment the current MMRCA deal is signed , miraculously LCA will stop having problem simple as that . Informal ideas floated during UPA regime whether IAF would accept LCA built by an indian private company ( with its no bar wine-dine expense account ) but let's just say answer was not nice 'forcing' indian private sector to go for 'safe' ( business & personal ) option of going for 'offset' business to be generated from MMRCA deal . Today its another 60 cms , tomorrow IAF will ask for chrom finish tyres . Kiska ch****a bana rahe hein. IAF is making IA look like dhoodh ke dhule . IA's moment is coming with gun trial . Cancelled deal with US had left many high & dry .

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Oct 2014 02:16

The only take away from that article is that the toe-touch problem (first reported in AI-11) may not have been cleared yet.

Otherwise, it is a mockery of an article. The reporter is clearly ignorant about fighter jets and unfortunately was very lazy to find somebody knowledgeable to vet his report before publication. For example, a 60 cm extension to the length of a fighter is a very big deal. It requires extensive studies of its effects on other control surfaces. That is why it is being done but only in the Mk2 version. Also they are not increasing the length to allow more access. They are increasing the length for better aerodynamics. And by virtue of the increased surface area and volume, they can place things in such a way so that access becomes easier(lining the walls). Similarly, a turn around time of 2-3 hours is quite world class (only if one doesn't dazzle himself with Gripen's brochures). F-16 and F-15 turnaround times in combat mode is 3 hours (average).

Yes, LCA is not a Rafale. Only ignorant nationalistic jingoism can pitch it that way. But it can easily replace all the fighters in our current inventory barring the MKI and the 29s (which should be replaced by the Rafales). It is time for IAF/MoD to stand by HAL/ADA, and HAL to pull up its socks regarding manufacturing. It is time to standardize to LCAs for the light section (300-400 of them), AMCA + Rafale in the medium section (300-400 of them) and MKIs and FGFAs in the heavy section (400-500 of them) to make up the 45 squadrons.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Oct 2014 02:39

Some of the modifications that IAF has to make on the Tejas include pushing back the cockpit panels by few centimeters to prevent the toes of an ejecting pilot from getting entangled with instruments and aides and adding another 60 centimetres in length to the aircraft body to allow easy access and replacements of critical circuitry.

'IAF has to make'? Should be HAL or ADA surely. On the 'to-do' list apparently.

Also, critical circuits and parts that could require replacements were placed so deep inside the aircraft body that the turn-around time between sorties varied between two to three hours - considered to be exceptionally long.

"The length of the aircraft was increased to rearrange the circuits and parts to allow easy access and faster replacement," the officer added.

The article now mentions the modifications in the past tense i.e. on the 'done' list.

Sources said that the IAF is pinning its hopes not on the LCA Mark I but on advanced LCA (Mark-II) to replace its ageing fleet of MiG-21 variants. The LCA Mark-II or second generation of LCA is expected to have a better design besides a more powerful engine - General Electric GE-414.

I recall 'sources' talking about how the Army was going slow on the Arjun because its 'real interest' was in the Mk2 variant. Orders for the latter still stand at a measly 124 units.

The IAF, however, feels that trials will be delayed by at least two if not three years as the current platform will have to undergo major re-engineering to accommodate the heavier GE 414 engines

As opposed to the current plan where ADA hires a dozen brawny chaps from the local akhara to simply shove the new engine into the existing airframe.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Oct 2014 05:35

Indranil, that sounds like a v.top heavy force with majority of the fighters being twin engined. My fervent hope is that the mrca deal is scuppered by namo govt as in the case of recent artillery purchase. A least it should be reduced to about two sqd direct purchase to stall depleting numbers or buy mig-29m in similar nos. Use the medium twin jet fighters for a narrow, specialized role with about 125-200.including amca, which can later replace all existing twin jets.

500 LCA
500 PAKFA+MKI
200 AMCA

I am still not entirely sure why iaf needs this three layer setup, no other AF does it like this. I realize our situation is unique, but seriously can't we make do with a medium-sized LCA2 along with the heavies?

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 05 Oct 2014 06:43

Cain Marko, that would be an option, if the Kaveri for the LCA had been successful. However, it was not. Because the Tejas uses an American engine (and is thus vulnerable to U.S. sanctions), the GoI wants to mitigate that risk.

It is risky to rely on 2 suppliers ... There is always the danger that they might collude with each other against their common customer. (This almost happened in the 1990's, with Clinton-era America and Yeltsin-era Russia). This is why India has always--to the extent possible--followed the principle of supplier diversification.

There are many sensible arguments against supplier diversification. However, India has decided--for a variety of reasons, some of which will not be discussed publicly--that supplier diversification is in its interest.

Also, there is an interesting maxim from China. (I think it's from the "Tao Te Ching," but I can't find it now.)

"To break it,
Stretch it."

The idea is that if you want to destroy someone, put him in a position above his current capabilities. He won't be able to handle the responsibilities, and that will lead to his downfall.

The Tejas will be a great light fighter. However, it needs time to mature. I've heard that it'll take 10 more years to fully develop (sensor fusion, EW, etc.) Trying to force the Tejas Mk. 1 to be the Rafale *at this point* would lead to many serious problems.

As an example, read the "LA Times" story of how the Bush administration rushed America's ground-based BMD into operational use before it was ready. As a result, the Bush administration wasted many billions of dollars, and the system today can't even stop a primitive attack from North Korea.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-mis ... story.html

"We recognize the problems we have had with all the currently fielded interceptors," Kendall told a defense industry conference in Washington in February. "The root cause was a desire to field these things very quickly and very cheaply.... We are seeing a lot of bad engineering, frankly, and it was because there was a rush."

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Oct 2014 07:06

CM sahab, your structure is not much different from mine

.

For me it is quite simple:
1. I am with IAF on Rafale. Too many of our squadrons are long in the tooth. And I don't see the first squadron of FGFA and AMCA being formed before 2022-23 and 2027-28 respectively. So we need the MMRCA to tide over this deficiency.
2. Anyways, time has come for IAF to work with ADA (if required with a stick) to get Mk2 operational ASAP. Based on this, work out how many Mk1s should be ordered such that LCAs can be roled out at a constant rate of 16-per-annum from 2016 onwards without any break between Mk1-Mk2 transition. Again make sure that HAL does not compromise on timelines and quality.
3. Work with MoD to create a parallel to HAL. A nation cannot be dependent on only one entity for all its fighters, light, medium and heavy!!!!

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 05 Oct 2014 08:27

Viv S wrote:
The IAF, however, feels that trials will be delayed by at least two if not three years as the current platform will have to undergo major re-engineering to accommodate the heavier GE 414 engines
As opposed to the current plan where ADA hires a dozen brawny chaps from the local akhara to simply shove the new engine into the existing airframe.

Good one Viv S, that cracked me up

. I think these kind of Lifafa/dork articles will come out thick and fast since SP1 started flying and everyone is asking why India is not ordering more LCA Mk.1.

williams · Post by **williams** » 05 Oct 2014 08:44

The competition is not between desi technology vs phoren technology. It is DRDO geeky technocrats vs Phoren marketing professionals who know how to breeze/grease our Babus and top brass. It would be better if DRDO does the research and prototyping while the private sector do the manufacturing and marketing. That is the only way to win this competition.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 05 Oct 2014 09:30

I see this 'diversify' our supplier base come so often - as if we are buying nuts and bolts for pennies.

Our potential enemy is China and we should diversify 'away' from Russian gear in this case. American or Euro gear is unaffordable, buying components for 'Desi' platforms is only way out. But we cannot get over the draw of the hot French or Euro dames.

Suggestions about buying from Russia, France and America makes me believe that we have found the next biggest source of oil to fund these 'acquisitions' , like their is another Saudi Arabia or two lying somewhere within India.

IAF seems to be willing to go to crazy lengths for 20 billion $ MMRCA, cannot do with LCA MK1 to replace Mig-21/27. Too much money to be be made - even measly 10% commission is 2 billion $$$ and spares/upgrades will be the richest retirement annuity policy ever....start - sarcasm Ex-con Tyagi must be smiling

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 05 Oct 2014 09:43

sattili wrote:... everyone is asking why India is not ordering more LCA Mk.1.

Who is this "everyone"? The MoD, especially a BJP MoD, can and will tell the IAF to shut up and swallow the LCA without complaint as-is if it is convinced that is the best thing to do, and the IAF will have no option but to follow orders. That however has not happened, has it? The people who know the real situation must realize there is a good reason to not go whole hog with the LCA Mk1. All reports point to the fact that it will not be fully ready for combat even after FOC in its current avatar.

A huge part of the problem is that it was designed without due regard to production line processes and ease of maintenance and DRDO/HAL has admitted as much. A more fundamental problem was our weird obsession with a "light fighter" concept in one of the world's most dangerous neighborhoods. This is a product of our pathetically misplaced loin cloth and lathi mentality that has resulted in an aircraft that is fit only for pilots with shoe sizes of 9 or less. We should hope that the Mk2 corrects the shortcomings of Mk1 asap but the full changes needed may be more than merely cosmetic. If that is the case, we need to be patient and not put pressure on DRDO/HAL. It is now even more urgent that we get this right and rushing the design will be a disaster.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 05 Oct 2014 10:03

Reading that article my blood was boiling... If the sources quoted in the report are genuine then i have lost all the respect for air force...I mean how could one raise these issues only at the fag end of its development... If i were to find faults I could find much glaring faults even in gold standard f-22 or f-35....I don't know why some people are hell bent on preventing induction of tejas, if they wanted a aircraft which they wanted then they should have been monitoring it from day one...which they have not so they have to accept what is provided to them, if they are not willing then shove it down there throat to accept it. It is better to lose a war than selling the nation by ordering mmrca, at least after loosing the war some heads will role Including the import lobby....If I remember correctly there was a proposal by army to operate transport aircraft so the best thing to do is ask them to induct tejas in CAS role..

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 05 Oct 2014 10:20

Why is that LCA should be compared to mmrca standards? From the day one it was a replacement for mig21 and if it is comparable then without hesitation IAF should accept it. Let them keep there crap about it being redundant for future requirements...I think it is time to start a campaign through social media to force IAF and IA to accept indigenous weapons....mahatma Gandhi's words of indigenous products should be the inspiration for it...during kargil the slogan was 'we will fight with what we have' but in the next war it should be 'we will fight the war with only Indian made weapons.'

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Oct 2014 11:14

^^^ ravip, if you trust what "an officer" said, then you might as well trust what the Bakis said. The IAF vs. Gold Plated vs. Chrome finish vs. all that have no answers.

The Line Sqns and others will own the machine now. They will have a lot to add to the feedback loop as an User and not as a Developer. Please grit your teeth for the feedback.

As far as the above article goes, where it specifically quotes the IAF Chief, I did not detect any bias against the LCA. The other quotes are FUD and IMO, you fell for it.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Oct 2014 11:26

indranilroy wrote:The only take away from that article is that the toe-touch problem (first reported in AI-11) may not have been cleared yet.

That is so true but not new. It was a problem in Mig 21's too. I did not become a fighter pilot because my leg length was a bit too much for the ejection seat. My knees would get chopped if I ejected. A dream crashed on the day of my final medicals before 'trifurcation' and there were some more mates of mine sobbing. Hope they can accommodate larger shoe sizes.

But we can induct with this problem and correct later.

Those Manuals are also important. The IAF works as per the manuals. IAF won't know what to do without those and they are important - like forever. So prepare those Manuals fast people. Let Tejas fly.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 05 Oct 2014 11:54

Few questions/comments - kindly respond if you can add more clarity or knowledge to what my thoughts are below.
1) Has IAF started flying SP1?
5 days ago, if SP1 was handed over to IAF with IOC-2 standard as the 1st fighter of the 20 IOC-2 LCA-MK1 standards, I wish it was flown by an active IAF pilot & not the chief test pilot (retired) Air Commodore K A Muthanna who took it to skies on 30th Sept 2014. May be it was ceremonial since it was an important milestone. (A 25 year old young pilot flying SP1 LCA would have been so nice)

2) SP2 in 2014?
A lookback tells that this delivery of SP1 aircraft is 1 year 4 months from the time when LSP-8 took to the skies in May 2013 & ~10 months from achieving the IOC-2 approval on 20 Dec 2013. Can we expect one more aircraft this year, SP2 delivered to IAF?

3) Delivery schedule for the firm order of 20 IOC2 + 20 FOC LCA-MK1 aircrafts
So, assuming HAL will be able to produce 8 aircrafts/year from 2016 (2015 feasible?) on one production assembly line, my idea is that the delivery schedule for the IAF confirmed order of 20 LCA-MK1 IOC2 + 20 LCA MK1 FOC aircrafts looks like below.
20 LCA-MK1 IOC2 aircrafts - 1 (delivered) + SP2? (2014), 6 (2015), 8 (2016), 4 (2017)
20 LCA-MK1 FOC aircrafts - -------------------------------------------------- 5 (2017), 8 (2018), 7 (2019)
Upgrade 20 LCA-MK1 IOC2 to FOC standards - --------------------------------------------------- 1 (2019), 8 (2019), 8 (2020), 3 (2020)
If you disagree, please suggest your anticipated delivery schedule.

4) Forward looking for LCA MK1 IOC2 standard squadron -
How does the above delivery schedule of 40 aircrafts till mid 2020 matches with replacement of 2 Mig-21 squadrons?
Which are the 2 Mig-21 squadrons identified? Do they go in war-reserve or complete dismantled and abandoned?
How well prepared Sulur base is to receive these 20 LCA-MK1 IOC2 aircrafts? What are the timelines and milestones for a new base such as Sulur to be called operational? (I have no idea if they too have IOC's/FOC's)?
At which base, the other 20 LCA-MK1 FOC aircrafts are planned to be stationed?

5) LCA FOC date -
Official statement of HAL Chairman 4-5 days ago says that FOC date for LCA-MK1 has not been scheduled yet.

Why do we get hints that FOC by 2015 is not a cake-walk?

HAL chairman R K Tyagi, in an official statement, said: "The aircraft is now ready for IAF operations." But that may depend on successful completion of FOC, which hasn't been scheduled. IAF has sought 20 LCAs in the first phase."
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 039380.cms

6) LCA SP1 costs -
Any idea of why the cost of LCA increases by 25% from 120 crore to 160 crore? (Inflation, old estimate pessimistic, composites getting expensive,?)

The cost of one single SP standard LCA, a senior HAL official said, could touch about Rs 160 crore. "Initially, the cost was estimated to be about Rs 120 crore, but now it may cost at least Rs 40 crore more," he said.

Same link as above.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 05 Oct 2014 12:07

As per defencenews, IAF has put up a demand for 250 Tejas mk2 and the government is offering an equivalent of $12 billion to help set up a parallel assembly line from the private sector, basically creating a HAL competitor.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... k-Monopoly

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 05 Oct 2014 12:34

Thakur_B wrote:As per defencenews, IAF has put up a demand for 250 Tejas mk2 and the government is offering an equivalent of $12 billion to help set up a parallel assembly line from the private sector, basically creating a HAL competitor.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... k-Monopoly

From the link:

But Muthumanikam Matheswaran, retired air marshal and adviser (for strategy) to the chairman of HAL, said no private-sector aircraft facility could build the LCA.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Oct 2014 13:06

GOI can make it happen if feels strongly about the issue.

One of the easiest ways of doing it is to hive-off the LCA prod infrastructure along with the staff into a separate company. Offer the selected private partner 51% shareholding with the rest 49% remaining with HAL or GOI. This way things start with the current infra and staff under private management. Later on facilities can be re-located, re-built, re-tooled, etc.

HAL will have a vested interest in its success by virtue of its minority shareholding. GOI will have a vested interest both because of minority shareholding via HAL and the need to create competition for HAL. With 49% shareholding GOI can block any M&A not in the interest of the country.

HAL will never willingly consent to competition and will require a lot of political push.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 05 Oct 2014 13:23

This should have been done a lot earlier. Hope it's not too late. Select an Indian company, make them adhere to security clauses, get them SaaB as consultant for Mk2, get staff from HAL and ADA and make them involved in the design of Mk2 with ADA and the foreign consultant. And make sure this facility will be in Bangalore for integration with other agencies. It will obviously take time but it's in the long term interest of the country.

Mahindra has established a new manufacturing facility in Bangalore (parts manufacture, not integration as of now). It maybe a good idea to start outsourcing parts manufacturing of LCA to them. But the challenge here is, if any company starts an aircraft integration facility, I guess they would need a separate runway and related infrastructure.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Oct 2014 13:28

KrishG why do you think SAAB will help us? they will rather sabotage the MK2 and sell Grippen E/F across the world try to pitch it for India.

Bhaskar T, it takes about 2.5 years from freezing specs to manufacture an LCA, I dont think this time is lesser for Rafale, SU-30MKI, Eurofighter, Grippen , F-22, F-16 etc.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Oct 2014 13:34

ravip wrote:Reading that article my blood was boiling... If the sources quoted in the report are genuine then i have lost all the respect for air force...I mean how could one raise these issues only at the fag end of its development... If i were to find faults I could find much glaring faults even in gold standard f-22 or f-35....I don't know why some people are hell bent on preventing induction of tejas, if they wanted a aircraft which they wanted then they should have been monitoring it from day one...which they have not so they have to accept what is provided to them, if they are not willing then shove it down there throat to accept it. It is better to lose a war than selling the nation by ordering mmrca, at least after loosing the war some heads will role Including the import lobby....If I remember correctly there was a proposal by army to operate transport aircraft so the best thing to do is ask them to induct tejas in CAS role..

The media are all biased. They survive only because they are paid to publish biased articles on behalf of someone.

It is unfortunate that we choose to believe anonymous reporters and cuss the AF as being stupid and incompetent.

Having said that - these are golden days for BRF. When I was adminullah my motto was "adi kollu" which means "hit to kill" and used the Red "ban member" button liberally after two whiskies. I was the one who did away with the code for banning that required two admins to enter the code simultaneously before a ban. I must have banned some friends of mine as well. But I can't recall for sure. In those days no one was allowed to cuss the armed forces based on lifafa reports.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 05 Oct 2014 13:46

V Rahguvanshi has been warned against on BRF earlier, so I also read up the link.

Isn't 12 Billion USD too much to be put into a LCA line for 250 units? Mere capital cost works out to 48 mil USD per unit. Then there would be other items of the P&L. I am not an expert but I guess the line would be practically useless for any other craft. Every single item that goes on to make an aircraft would be different for a new aircraft. Even the basic philosophy, of two fighters within the same generation can be completely off. So apart from the engineering conglomerate and the building nothing should be reusable. Besides the fact that we are getting slightly late for the new line.

But one thing is clear, just the way the English Media could not put lipstick on Rahul Baba, this man raghuvanshi, also cannot also hide the basic instincts of the various operators, regardless of the nature of the reportage. Remember we were warned on Matheswaran also. It really is a small world - not even 4 degrees of freedom. NaMo and team should push through the privatization in more bold a form then just this much of 'consultations with industry' with an eye on the future. If for no good reason that just to prevent this small world from becoming another orgy of intellectualism. Country will have to commit cash and slog but it would be worth it.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 05 Oct 2014 13:54

ravi_g wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:As per defencenews, IAF has put up a demand for 250 Tejas mk2 and the government is offering an equivalent of $12 billion to help set up a parallel assembly line from the private sector, basically creating a HAL competitor.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... k-Monopoly
From the link:

But Muthumanikam Matheswaran, retired air marshal and adviser (for strategy) to the chairman of HAL, said no private-sector aircraft facility could build the LCA.

I agree that no private player can build LCA starting from scratch. Our private companies can't make cars or bikes without significant gaps in body panels. Why doesn't GoI consider a JV between HAL and private player, with private management?? It would bring the HAL's technology expertise and private company's agility, project management, marketing expertise together. Also would help mitigating financial risks for the private company with GoI backing. Its a huge risk for them without proper future plans. Because just building parallel line won't be enough. GoI has to find ways to keep it functioning for long with more orders from import. Also future for it through manufacturing of AMCA.

BTW I don't understand, while we cry over the extended time lines, what stops ADA from hiring more scientists and accelerate the work?? I can't think of any logical reason.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 05 Oct 2014 14:04

BTW I don't understand, while we cry over the extended time lines, what stops ADA from hiring more scientists and accelerate the work?? I can't think of any logical reason.

Unfortunately ADA has not got that leeway. People are allowed only to be hired via contract basis and just when they manage to teach them and get them into the groove they leave.There is a request for more scientists but who will hear ? Imagine having to hire a temp, then ultimately having to do the work of both the temp and your work.That is what happens in these situations.