UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Oct 2014 10:18

Panchi does not have Autonomous TOL. It has assisted TOL.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 02 Oct 2014 11:02

indranilroy wrote:Panchi does not have Autonomous TOL. It has assisted TOL.

thanks... my bad..

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 04 Oct 2014 19:44

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2014/10/vi ... ndian.html

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Oct 2014 08:27

prasannasimha wrote:http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2014/10/vi ... ndian.html

This is amazing... couple of observations from my side...
1) The Launch: It was fairly simple, this should make launch and recovery a breeze, with minimal prep giving a huge tactical advantage to our forces. It also has Autonomous Launch, meaning Operator doesn't have to be controlling the UAV immediately.
2)Auto Waypoint Navigation: Allows the operator to input a plan before hand, this enables to launch team to decamp to another location thus minimizing detection.
3) Loiter: Loiter can be autonomous or based on user commands,
4) suveillance: Picture quality in color is good. i think there are multiple cameras (in the video we see it focus on one area, a wide area image is also displayed at the same time). There is Color, B&W, infra-red imaging available.
5) Tracking: Tracking of Static and Moving Targets. Auto-lock on targets. Tracking continues even when the target is moving at a decent speed (obviously the limit would be a secret).
6) Landing: Autonomous landing. no need for a prepared runway.
It would be great to know about its endurance, payload capacity, altitude ceiling etc.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Oct 2014 08:41

It would be great to know about its endurance, payload capacity, altitude ceiling etc.

Nope.

The less we know the better.

What is there in open source is great stuff. what they have achieved is not that easy.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 06 Oct 2014 09:14

^^^

Good looking and seems designed for controlled crash landing without actually breaking anything. The front piece seems able to siwel to follow target.. For me if I had not known this was an ADE product I would have thought this would be a western product..
seems to follow old adage "if looks good it will fly good"
from here
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 455232.ece

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 06 Oct 2014 09:19

^^^ That is nice close up. Thank You Jayram ji for catching that.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Oct 2014 09:22

Great stuff.

Two queries:

1) Why was the moving target track considerably smoother compared to the static target track which was a bit jittery? I would have expected it the other way round.

2) How do they ensure that the safety of the hardware esp. the camera head in such loose earth unprepared landings. ~~Do they retract the camera or is it already housed inside the body with no part jutting out of the fuselage~~. I guess the optics will turn up and away from the ground, probably even be covered just before the landing and the two antennas may be retractable. Hope there is some confirmation soon.

But it was a good start to a Monday. Congrats you all.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 06 Oct 2014 12:13

I have a question - why cannot a simple landing system with wheels be added to these drones instead of a belly landing - wouldn't it be safer for the main structure.What are the issues of adding a wheeled landing system ?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Oct 2014 12:30

prasannasimha wrote:I have a question - why cannot a simple landing system with wheels be added to these drones instead of a belly landing - wouldn't it be safer for the main structure.What are the issues of adding a wheeled landing system ?

Weight, drag, complexity, which is far too big a drawback on UAVs that weigh 1-4 kilos. Soft belly landing is good enough for ~ 100 landings, that's about an year to five depending on how active the unit is.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 06 Oct 2014 12:32

^^ Assuming you are talking about the Micro/Mini UAVs.

Wheels will mean you need a road/dirt strip to recover the birds. M-UAVs with flight time of Hour Odd means you are closer to the AO while you are operating and far away from any form of infrastructure (even if rudimentary). Imagine in the Mountains of Desert or Marsh Land.

A hardened belly means you can recover it pretty much anywhere (except on the side of a Mountain or say a Gemini boat) - where i assume a Quadcopter/VTOL is better

Wheels would also mean additional weight?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 06 Oct 2014 13:22

Thanks

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Oct 2014 22:08

Contrary to intuition belly landing is one of the safest ways to retrieve this class of UAVs.

You can't have a very sturdy landing gear for weight penalties and the wheels are very small. So, they "catch" instead of rolling unless the surface is really smooth, and often topple the plane leading to damage. Instead if you just flare up just before touchdown, you can land at very low speeds on the belly (I often catch my models with straight wings). With a gyro, you will land almost perfectly all the time.

Besides, one can see a few design choices they made to mitigate any damage: the wing tips are cranked up so that the underside of the wing hits the ground instead of the wingtip (another thing which often leads to a topple). The pusher prop is chosen and placed on a high wing to avoid props hitting the ground. They added two circular notches in the belly, much like the wheels on a glider.

I see no reason why these planes can't be launched hundreds of times without much structural damage.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Oct 2014 23:32

indranilroy wrote:They added two circular notches in the belly, much like the wheels on a glider.

I see no reason why these planes can't be launched hundreds of times without much structural damage.

Ok now I know why these two semi-circular notches were there. Had they been full wheels they would have been almost half the height of the craft itself. And with these notches now it would behave more like a ski instead of small piddly wheels that would more likely catch the grass and dirt instead of rolling.

Thanks. Since morning I could not make out what it was.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Oct 2014 04:59

Question is what happens of Slybird now?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Oct 2014 11:25

That pic is of an Indian design. Reminds me of a South African design from the late 90s.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Oct 2014 19:31

NRao wrote:
It would be great to know about its endurance, payload capacity, altitude ceiling etc.
What is there in open source is great stuff. what they have achieved is not that easy.

Agree, I was looking for open source onlee... no inside stuff.. i can dig around to get more information.. the product looks good, in the hands of a trained operator and intelligence personal... it would give valuable insight and save valuable lives.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 07 Oct 2014 21:43

Looks like a Controp Gimballed EO on that DRDO UAV. Controp's STAMP line is used very widely.

http://www.controp.com/category/short-range-payloads

Good job, no need to reinvent the wheel. We have to make use of more COTS electronic subsystems whenever possible.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 10 Oct 2014 15:16

Thakur_B wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:oops what happened to the rhona dhona of those people who were crying about UAV's being done in the backyard etc and we are not making anything
Busy taping old nokia smartphones (for the ruggedness factor and battery life) to paper planes and RC models and showing they can do it in less time than what it has taken UAV developers.

Another one who thinks hobbyists tech equals a UAV program.

What a joke.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 10 Oct 2014 19:17

Not sure if you missed the sarcasm in my post, Neshant

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 10 Oct 2014 19:30

indranilroy wrote:Question is what happens of Slybird now?

Slybird carries a slightly heavier payload (<1 Kg) while imperial eagle has 50% more range with 250g payload.

In fact there are two different Slybird models, A and B.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 10 Oct 2014 23:50

Thakur_B wrote:Not sure if you missed the sarcasm in my post, Neshant

Not sure you missed it in mine.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2014 05:48

I think he was referring to your posts..so...

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 11 Oct 2014 09:09

And I was referring to his.

The slowness of wit is only matched
by the lack of any real UAV program.

Sadly so.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 11 Oct 2014 09:20

Extremely useful for sea-mine and anti-sub warfare and under water obstacles and anomalies.

A UAV program is all about developing electronic payloads, not making a flying craft and sticking a COTS camera and nav on it - which is the easy bit. That any hobbyists can do.

What's below is specialized and that is what a UAV program should be 80% focused on.

___

Countermine Lidar UAV-based System

http://www.onr.navy.mil/en/Science-Tech ... 71571.ashx

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2014 23:17

Neshant wrote:And I was referring to his.

The slowness of wit

Yours perhaps?

is only matched by the lack of any real UAV program.

Speaking of your awareness perhaps?

Sadly so.

Very sad indeed. BTW when are you taking over Sagem, Raytheon, Elbit etc with your garage built genius innovations? All eagerly awaiting..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Oct 2014 23:18

Neshant wrote:Extremely useful for sea-mine and anti-sub warfare and under water obstacles and anomalies.

A UAV program is all about developing electronic payloads, not making a flying craft and sticking a COTS camera and nav on it - which is the easy bit. That any hobbyists can do.

What's below is specialized and that is what a UAV program should be 80% focused on.

Yes, because long range UAVs with automated systems & encrypted datalinks, sophisticated nav systems are all available OTS. Heron can be purchased off any supermarket shelf..

___

Countermine Lidar UAV-based System

http://www.onr.navy.mil/en/Science-Tech ... 71571.ashx

And what do you know of any electronic payloads development in India? Pray tell.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Oct 2014 23:43

http://bcove.me/ljl1zw8o

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 12 Oct 2014 10:20

Karan M wrote: Yes, because long range UAVs with automated systems & encrypted datalinks, sophisticated nav systems are all available OTS. Heron can be purchased off any supermarket shelf

You are wasting your time trolling and you ignorant of what is. UAV flight control is old hat and survey grade INS + GPS is largely COTS with nothing developed under the UAV program. The development of satellite based GPS aided augmented nav is under the space program.

And what do you know of any electronic payloads development in India? Pray tell.

I know none of it is happening as its being purchased off the shelf.

Flying a craft with a camera doing waypoint navigation is not a UAV program. Its a hobbyist program.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 12 Oct 2014 10:25

A miniature synthetic apature radar for a small drone.

ScanEagle UAV gets Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR)

http://www.gizmag.com/scaneagle-uav-get ... -sar/9007/

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Oct 2014 03:04

From NAL's director's report 2013-14

In the current period, efforts have gone in for the improvement of fixed wing MAVs like Slybird of 1.5 m wing span and Pushpak of 450 mm wing span related
to product engineering aspects. The Slybird mini UAV and Pushpak - 450 Micro UAV were successfully demonstrated to CRPF and NSG at Manesar during November 2013 (Fig. 9, 10). The design of 150 mm fixed wing MAV named Micro-beacon is undergoing flight trials.

Under the CSIR 12th Five Year plan project, design of autopilot guidance and control laws for MAVs has been carried out using Slybird aerodynamics model. Software-in-the loop simulation was carried out with the designed control laws for various flight phases from takeoff to landing. Also, design of autopilot for Black Kite MAV using nonlinear dynamic inversion has been completed. I am happy to inform that the laboratory has successfully designed and developed state-of-the art indigenous Autopilot hardware using Programmable System on Chip (PSoC) based controller, 10 Degree of Freedom (10DoF) sensor suite, pressure altimeter sensor,microSD real-time recording device, interfaces to Servo actuators, interface to GPS receiver, and other sensors/ devices (Fig. 11). The autopilot hardware has been integrated and test flown successfully in platforms like Slybird, Sky Surfer, and Hang Glider apart from various ground vehicles (Fig. 12).

Improvements to the Wankel engine

In the recent past, CSIR-NAL in collaboration with VRDE, DRDO has successfully designed and developed a 55 HP Wankel rotary combustion engine for the Nishant UAV. Building on this rich experience, a modified version of the UAV engine has been built for the manned application and will be tested on a Powered Hang Glider. The modified engine is more reliable and has additional features like a gear box instead of belt drive, in-built starter motor, larger bearings and silencer.

I also came across a paper on Slybird's aerodynamic design:
Design of a High Altitude Fixed Wing Mini UAV–Aerodynamic Challenges

Another paper on ADE's Indian Eagle UAV:
Impact Analysis of Mini UAV during Belly Landing

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 13 Oct 2014 04:07

has successfully designed and developed state-of-the art indigenous Autopilot hardware using Programmable System on Chip (PSoC) based controller, 10 Degree of Freedom (10DoF) sensor suite, pressure altimeter sensor,microSD real-time recording device, interfaces to Servo actuators, interface to GPS receiver, and other sensors/ devices (Fig. 11). The autopilot hardware has been integrated and test flown successfully in platforms like Slybird, Sky Surfer, and Hang Glider apart from various ground vehicles (Fig. 12).

Its hobbyists level stuff. Sensors are purchased off the shelf and integrated into an autopilot. Hobbyists have been doing this for ages already.

This is the simple stuff.

The real measure of a country's UAV program is the sophistication of the electronic sensor packages it can develop indegenously and equip the UAV with. The other half is how well the fleet of UAVs tie into overall C3. Electronic sensors ain't just sticking a camera on the UAV and calling it a day.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 13 Oct 2014 05:10

very well said neshant !

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 13 Oct 2014 07:54

^Wow, fanboys with fanboys.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 Oct 2014 09:32

Nothing happens overnight > Persistance leading to incremental improvements makes a weapon good to great. Sensor package and C3 fall in this category full and square.

Nishant UAV system would have turned out to be top class if we would have not elected jokers in to power to begin with. Not too late now to start using common sense.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 13 Oct 2014 10:59

marten...neshant is very correct, even if its a one liner. sophistication of electronic sensor package and or i would say opto electronics sensor package as well... we cant make a reasonable opto sight, a reasonable NVG and u think we can make a world beater UAV? will not happen... UAV is much more getting something into air and making it fly along a certain path and bringing it back to land..

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 13 Oct 2014 11:13

Neshant, UAV programs in India are not certified kosher by you. Got it. Move on, thanks

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Oct 2014 11:24

manjgu wrote:marten...neshant is very correct, even if its a one liner. sophistication of electronic sensor package and or i would say opto electronics sensor package as well... we cant make a reasonable opto sight, a reasonable NVG and u think we can make a world beater UAV? will not happen... UAV is much more getting something into air and making it fly along a certain path and bringing it back to land..

you are completely mistaken. we do make "reasonable opto sights".

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/techno ... 091400.ece
it compared well with versus whatever was available from ww sources.
There are myriad other "opto sights" that are going into service after stringent trials for navy, army etc after comparisons to foreign gear. TI sights for the T-72/T-90, EOFCS for our naval ships etc. a breakthrough has been in a completely new EOFCS with autotracking suitable for FCS apps across naval, land and air platforms. neshant dismissed that as "hobbyist" level, never mind such stuff is only available from a handful of manufacturers - ELBIT/Controp, Keltron, BAe, Sagem, Raytheon/FLIR etc.

as regards nvg's, we have long had the capability to make reasonable nvgs albeit with imported detectors but for MOD intransigence in pushing older BEL license produced stuff, but even that was finally resolved with newer french tech being asked and agreed upon. under Modi & co, expect Tata Nova/ASL, HBL, Alpha and all others to get orders for their sights as well, if its equal to the BEL stuff (or better).

before you note how they are not fully "indigenous", well then even the Litening pods IAF so likes to use arent indigenous as they rely on German Carl Zeiss optics, and COTS US/Japanese/SoKo semiconductors.

neshant doesn't have a clue of what UAVs are being worked on or their sensor packages and is speaking rubbish. its the kind of belligerence which takes the discussion to ridiculous levels. ELINT packages are being handled by DLRL, radar from LRDE etc. there is enough evidence to note the progress as well.

automatic, autonomous ops for UAVs along with TOL automation are the key attributes of any UAV system, and only a handful of countries have got it & retain it. India achieved that with Nishant & is progressing further.

further, long range UAVs & critical tech about navigation, which you dismiss as "flying along a certain path" is also sanctioned since it can be directly applied to developing long range missiles & munitions. neshant's silly hobbyist comparison is moot, because we are talking of UAVs which fly for 100's of kms and stay in the air for hours, not some kit which fly's in LOS with some enthusiast handling its controls.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 13 Oct 2014 12:48

^^^ Karan,
Since I played a role in starting this, I better take my bitter medication as well.

The core argument here has the following analogy -- Kaveri is a good jet engine because it has flown on testbed for XXX hours and tested on the ground for XXXX hours. We are working on the hot section, and the cold section and the casting of this, and the prototyping of that. Everything has been indegenized.

See how quickly the statements start sounding silly?

Next up is XXX does not knowv YYY --- not everything in life is a richard measuring contest. Here it inevitably turns into one. So I stay away. Not that I know anything.

For all I know (having only touched a museum version) the space station, the shuttle, and the SR71 are all myths. There are some conspiracy videos that have been made and some obscure publications resulted in exotic science/tech journals. They are not what gave these prograns credibility. Something else did. The chinese mnay well have equivalent hardware today, but even they dont have the credibility.

Now if production versions are not to be assessed and evaluated from open source information, perhaps the technology visible in the prototypes or the prototype cycle could be an indicator of *something*. Here too I struggle.

It is not me. But there are indeed folks on the forum who do know a thing or two. Why doesnt this thread attract insightful commentary from them? May be there are hurdles, or mnay be there is not much to say.

The procurement is speaking the loudest right now. Small words mnay contain big insights (thoda kaha, bahut samajhana).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Oct 2014 20:40

ADE is looking for 10 pieces of belly-mounted M-STAMP (or equivalent) EO payload for its yet to be revealed mini-Rotary wing UAV (RUAV). It will fly 300 mtrs off the ground and up to an altitude of 10,000 feet.